And at the risk of seeming like a jerk, I have to ask...what does any of this have to do with the summoner (which is what the name of this stickied post implies...)...
Maybe the discussion on animal companions warrants a new post :P
I have no idea.
[goes to do research]
What prevents you from being a ranger riding a wolf?
It's William's fault ;) .
It's William's fault ;) .
Yeah that sounds good. We'll go with that.
Hey, I got a cross for Christmas!
Oh cra...
Here is the link to the site page.
Wikipedia has a fairly exhaustive list of sources of the various Valkyrie myths. Only one of them mentions wolves as mounts, and then only for one specific Valkyrie. Very few of the actual mythological sources of the Valkyrie mention them riding at all. I don't know where that page gets its source for "valkyrie horse" being a kenning for "wolf", because it isn't cited at all that I can tell.
Yes, that's the one single instance of a (single, unique) Valkyrie riding a wolf that I was referring to. The AllExperts link draws a conclusion from that single instance that all Valkyries rode flying wolves, and, while I'm no Ancient Norse scholar, I am a fan of Norse mythology and nothing I've read there indicated anything for the sort. Wikipedia also mentions nothing about wolven mounts aside from the one Valkyrie mentioned on the Rok Stone.
my summoner's Eidolon is very wolf like... nas scent and an extra pair of legs (speed 50) and is medium so his halfling summoner can ride him
One or two straps are easier to adjust than a form-fitting outfit with dozens of buckles?
I made Garurumon for a half-elf Summoner once. So much fun.
Heres something that bugs me though. Why can Eidolons wear saddles so their Summoners can ride them, but they can't wear armor(due to over-reacting people forcing Jason to make "Updates") because of their ever shifting form?
I would let them be described as wearing armor... but only because they have +2 natural armor.. but I would not let them take it off
If the barding comment was a disagreement (not sure), here's an example of barding:
http://www.houseshadowwolf.com/DiagramArmourHorse1.jpg
Sure, but the seed was 'this explanation made up for balance reasons doesn't work right because of this other situation.'
I was merely pointing out that the rationalization of the balance decision was, in fact, reasonable.
The ruling on Eidolon equipment was for balance reasons, not because it made any kind of logical sense. That whole everyshifting form crap is just a weak attempt at fluff justification.
And probably not going to stick... he did say just to leave the armor off currently for the playtest... he knows it was broken and is planning to adjust things so it isn't...
fair enough, he wanted more data other than "this armor thing is too much"
Let's not get too stuck on the armor issue... paizo is better at fixing things than to let that stay around.
I think the having it able to wear armor was ok... do to the drawbacks... if it is dispelled or killed the armor would fall to the ground where it was... probably at the feet of a really nasty bad guy ... and when it was re summoned it would have to take the time to put it back on... in between the summoner or one of his party members he convinced to do it for him has to lug this huge hunk of armor around.
maybe this would be solved by making the eidolon disappear whenever the summoner was not conscious. and could only re-summon after 8 hours rest. which would be an issue if there was a fight in the middle of the night and the summoner had not had his 8 hours yet... this would put him in the same boat as the wizard or sorcerer.
Im' kinda new to the forum so I can only assume that this issue has been beaten to death already... but why is the SUMMONER class based on some super animal companion and not, oh i don't know, maybe SUMMONING. That was just a vent and i feel better now.
But i do think that the summoner should have some crazy summoning options that other classes don't have instead of the other way around (conjuration wizard). Just get rid of the eidolon already.
The entire point of the class is, and always has been, the eidolon. That is why the class was made. It was never ever intended to be a class that was focused on spells rather than the creature.
The entire point of the class is the eidolon. That is why the class was made. It was never ever intended to be a class that was focused on spells rather than the creature.Im' kinda new to the forum so I can only assume that this issue has been beaten to death already... but why is the SUMMONER class based on some super animal companion and not, oh i don't know, maybe SUMMONING. That was just a vent and i feel better now.
But i do think that the summoner should have some crazy summoning options that other classes don't have instead of the other way around (conjuration wizard). Just get rid of the eidolon already.
I agree... I actuall felt the spells were sorta extra and if something was to be given up I would vote for those spells and just keep the Eidolon and the SLA
Well, as it summons the eidolon, I would suggest that it possibly fulfills the obligation to his name.
Also, the Summoner can have more than one summon spell active at one time, they just to actually cast a spell rather than use a spell like ability.
Im' kinda new to the forum so I can only assume that this issue has been beaten to death already... but why is the SUMMONER class based on some super animal companion and not, oh i don't know, maybe SUMMONING. That was just a vent and i feel better now.
But i do think that the summoner should have some crazy summoning options that other classes don't have instead of the other way around (conjuration wizard). Just get rid of the eidolon already.
A number of people don't like the name, but the idea is more important than the name. The idea is to have a "pet" focused class. The pet is summoned so it still fits even if its not the best name for most people.
Well, the paladin can summon a horse, so why don't we just call that the Summoner?Well, as it summons the eidolon, I would suggest that it possibly fulfills the obligation to his name.
Also, the Summoner can have more than one summon spell active at one time, they just to actually cast a spell rather than use a spell like ability.
The summoner has the super-summon, and it summons without using spells. They are even allowed to use Augment Summoning for its SLA's.
actually you could cut back to one base starting shape.. a formless mass. then you would add the limbs abd head and tail and weapons and all that yourself, but you would need more evo points at start
Am I the only one having flashbacks to Spore when contemplating the Eidolon?
Am I the only one having flashbacks to Spore when contemplating the Eidolon?
never played it
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actually you could cut back to one base starting shape.. a formless mass. then you would add the limbs abd head and tail and weapons and all that yourself, but you would need more evo points at start
I would actually prefer this & the Eidolon comes with say 3 free 1 pt evolutions from a limited list - limbs arms, limbs legs, bite, claw, slam, climb, gills, swim, tail & sting or tail slap, and tentacle.
you could also assign the saves as 2x good & 1x bad as you wishedall eidolons have base speed 20' without extra movement evolutions like legs or swim etc
this would allow summoners to have whatever form they desired without Paizo having to create multiple base forms
eg.1 - you could have a aquatic style one - JAWS - gills, swim & bite
eg.2 - formless mass - gelatinous blob - climb, limbs arms, slam
eg.3 - any of the base forms as presented already
comments anyone ?
Hows this for a formless start form:
Size: Medium Speed: 20 ft AC: -
Saves: Pick any 2 (Good), and 1 (Bad)
Ability Scores Str 12, Dex 12, Con 13,Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11
Add 10 points to Eidolon evolution pool, which is what it would cost to create each of the base forms beyond the above base.
Now you can build willy nilly and no worrying about free evolutions or preformed body types.
Please don't take off the multiple monster summons. What's the point of a SUMMONER class if a Druid or Sorcerer can summon way more than you can?
Please don't take off the multiple monster summons. What's the point of a SUMMONER class if a Druid or Sorcerer can summon way more than you can?
This has been addressed multiple times, the only limit is on the spell like ability, summoners can cast as many summon spells as they wants. The point in the summoner isnt to cast tons of summon monster spells to piss off everyone at the table because you just made combat take 4 hours per round, its to have a powerful summoned ally to kick ass with.
I apologize in advance if someone has mentioned this but I didnt have time to read thru many pages of posts.
I saw that the basic familiars add spells to their witch (or to the familiar actually) based on the type you pick as the witch levels up.
I didnt see a list for the same spells for improved familiars. (improved familiar feat which is in the PF Adventurer's Guide. I assume this was just an oversight, as spending a feat for a better familiar should also still add the same bonus as the base familiars.
Thanks,
Mark Lewis
In the rules it has not been addressed. I think what most of us are doing is using the same spell list as the original familiar.
I don't like these changes and I am a big fan of changing BUT keeping the summoner. The first change limits player imagination in my opinion - may be some player wants their character to have made a divine or infernal deal that allows them, as the Summoner class, to summon a "knightly" eidolon clad in heavy armor. Taking away this option seems to be filtering PC's towards every creature being some sort of Cuthulu like monster rather than somehing... kind of cool in a story way. I mean I completely understand the "why's" given the insane AC these guys can get quick but I still don't like limiting the eidolon in this way. Perhaps the better thing to do would be to declare a type of eidolon at 1st level and that type of eidolon gets access to only a certain part of the evolutions.
The Eidolon can look however the summoner wants it to. If he wants it to look like something wearing full plate, he can. It doesnt have to be wearing real armor, its body can look like its wearing armor.
I don't like the change in the duration or casting time of the SLA - that's the class's thing.
The Eidolon is its thing, the SLA was just its little extra bonus for being a caster class.
a bear is not a mount.
Tell that to the bear cavalry.
Breland, wasn't it?
ADD:
And I quite agree with deathmaster. You want it armored? say its natural armor looks like armor.
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I played in a playtest on the weekend & found that the build I had was quite balanced when compared to the druid which is the closest base class there is to a summoner.
One thing I did notice only after playing & had not thought of it till then was that "Life Link" & at later levels "Life Bond" is really too powerful - the game we played was 15th level & at this level it essentially gave my Eidolon or Summoner about 200hps since you essentially can combine them - we were playing 1/2 HD +1 for hps so a D8 is 5 hps
This gives the summoner a source of more hps available than any other class
I would suggest removing both of these abilities & give the summoner some healing capability maybe even limited only to healing the eidolon
a few suggestions in a package :
1) remove the SLA
2) add the summon monster spells as spells known for free
3) summoner's charm, as the conjurer ability
4) make summon spells cast by the summoner more powerful by adding abilities at indicated levels for example :
(1) automatic still, silent eschew materials
doesnt add to spell level or casting time
(4) augment summoning
as the feat, no prerequiste, if the summoner already has this feat allow the player to pick another feat
(7) rapid summons
summon monster as a standard action
(10) extend spell
doesnt add to spell level or casting time
(13) persistent summons
+ 4 on CL and saves to avoid dispel or dismissal of summoned monsters
(16) imbued summons
3/day when casting summon monster expend a spell you know as free action, the creature(s) summoned appear with the desired spell already cast on them
(19) maximized summons
when a roll is required to determine the number of summons, you always get the maximum result as per the maximize spell.
The other changes seem fair to me, the suggestions above might need some polishing, but I think the summoner should have potent summoning abilities reflected in the class, that should go beyond what other casters can do.
As a side note, in my campaigns I usually allow just one summon to be active, though a feat allows to have two summon spells active at the same time, if you go beyond this number as a free action the summoner must dismiss one of the other active summon spells.
feel free to comment on these suggestions, or ways to improve or if you plainly do not like it for whatever reason.
a few suggestions in a package :
1) remove the SLA
2) add the summon monster spells as spells known for free
With the summoner's limited spell casting ability the summon monster spells will be useless at any level past 3. I like the SLA ability I would rather see spell casting removed and keep the Eidolon and SLA.
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I agree... I actuall felt the spells were sorta extra and if something was to be given up I would vote for those spells and just keep the Eidolon and the SLAThe entire point of the class is the eidolon. That is why the class was made. It was never ever intended to be a class that was focused on spells rather than the creature.Im' kinda new to the forum so I can only assume that this issue has been beaten to death already... but why is the SUMMONER class based on some super animal companion and not, oh i don't know, maybe SUMMONING. That was just a vent and i feel better now.
But i do think that the summoner should have some crazy summoning options that other classes don't have instead of the other way around (conjuration wizard). Just get rid of the eidolon already.
It seems to need a better name, "summoner" evokes the wrong idea in peoples minds.
minis handbook had 'bonded summoner', but that specifically summoned an elemental, if I remember right.
With the summoner's limited spell casting ability the summon monster spells will be useless at any level past 3. I like the SLA ability I would rather see spell casting removed and keep the Eidolon and SLA.a few suggestions in a package :
1) remove the SLA
2) add the summon monster spells as spells known for free
ermm.. not sure I get this, how will the summon monster spells become useless after lvl 3 ??
ermm.. not sure I get this, how will the summon monster spells become useless after lvl 3 ??
They are capped at level 6 spells so if you take away the SLA and give them summon monster spells, the best Summon they can ever cast is Level 6. They don't see the level 6 spell until the cleric, druid, wizard/sorcerer are looking at the level 9 summon lists.
This would make them the worst summoner in the game while loading them up with class features that only help summon monsters.
At level 1 you don't see it because everyone starts with the level 1 summons tables. Past level 3 they will fall farther and farther behind in creature effectiveness.
ermm.. not sure I get this, how will the summon monster spells become useless after lvl 3 ??They are capped at level 6 spells so if you take away the SLA and give them summon monster spells, the best Summon they can ever cast is Level 6. They don't see the level 6 spell until the cleric, druid, wizard/sorcerer are looking at the level 9 summon lists.
This would make them the worst summoner in the game while loading them up with class features that only help summon monsters.
At level 1 you don't see it because everyone starts with the level 1 summons tables. Past level 3 they will fall farther and farther behind in creature effectiveness.
Did you actually look at their spell list? They get summon monster 9 and Gate as level 6 spells.