UPDATE - Summoner


Round 2: Summoner and Witch

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Caineach wrote:
dulsin wrote:
Remco Sommeling wrote:
ermm.. not sure I get this, how will the summon monster spells become useless after lvl 3 ??

They are capped at level 6 spells so if you take away the SLA and give them summon monster spells, the best Summon they can ever cast is Level 6. They don't see the level 6 spell until the cleric, druid, wizard/sorcerer are looking at the level 9 summon lists.

This would make them the worst summoner in the game while loading them up with class features that only help summon monsters.

At level 1 you don't see it because everyone starts with the level 1 summons tables. Past level 3 they will fall farther and farther behind in creature effectiveness.

Did you actually look at their spell list? They get summon monster 9 and Gate as level 6 spells.

What he said ^^


default wrote:
minis handbook had 'bonded summoner', but that specifically summoned an elemental, if I remember right.

yup, they replaced their familiar with an elemental pet. Started at medium and got one size bigger every other level. They only got half spell casting progression so each level their pet didnt get bigger they got +1 level of spellcaster. They got damage resistance against their elemental type and gained elemental immunities over the levels so at 10th in the class they had all of elemental immunities and were immune to the damage type of their element.

The class has the summoner issue of how to handle a huge pet. I took earth when I played one so my pet could just earthglide through most places.

While playing my bonded summoner I had the funniest thing that ever happened to me in a game happen as well. I had a huge earth elemental get hit by a cocktrice and rolled on a 1 on the save, and thus turned to stone ;) We all found it highly amuzing to have a huge stone earth elemental :P


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I would be much happier with this class in my games if the pet was an elemental that grew as the player leveled. Pick an element and at level 1 gain a small elemental of your favorite element.

That would be much more in the spirit of a summoner and not be open to the potential for abuse the Eidolon has.

This would be an extremely nice pet at level 1 maybe to much...

Small Air Elemental CR 1
N Small outsider (air, elemental, extraplanar)
Init +7; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +4
AC 17, touch 14, flat-footed 14 (+3 Dex, +3 natural, +1 size)
hp 13 (2d10+2)
Fort +4, Ref +6, Will +0
Defensive Abilities air mastery; Immune elemental traits
Speed fly 100 ft. (perfect)
Melee slam +6 (1d4+1)
Special Attacks whirlwind (DC 12)
Statistics
Str 12, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 11
Base Atk +2; CMB +2; CMD 15

The Elder elemental is a bit weak for level 17+ but they could get an enhancement for their pet at those levels.


dulsin wrote:
That would be much more in the spirit of a summoner

No, actually, it wouldn't.


Zurai wrote:
dulsin wrote:
That would be much more in the spirit of a summoner
No, actually, it wouldn't.

The problem I see is that lots of people have different ideas about what the spirit of the summoner should be.


Caineach wrote:
Zurai wrote:
dulsin wrote:
That would be much more in the spirit of a summoner
No, actually, it wouldn't.
The problem I see is that lots of people have different ideas about what the spirit of the summoner should be.

Well I'm going by the official definition (a protean -- little p, not the Chaotic Neutral Exemplars -- spirit drawn from the Maelstrom and shaped to the Summoner's will) and by the examples Jason and other Paizo staff have cited (things like Dr. Frankenstein, Final Fantasy summoners, etc).


What's the lastest on the poor maligned summoner, have the jackels finished ripping into it yet? Any more neutering changes?


Final Fantasy summons were call on demand and leave. If the eidolon summoned as a full round and then stayed for 1rd/ level then poofed and could only becall x number of times per day that would lean on the abuse. Probably won't stop every abuse but it could make the minute summons less powerful. No more eidolon lead army, just an army. Plus Mr. Fishy might be able to use the minute summons as mounts and trap busters. "Stop whining you won't die, you just poof."


Mr.Fishy wrote:
Final Fantasy summons were call on demand and leave. If the eidolon summoned as a full round and then stayed for 1rd/ level then poofed and could only becall x number of times per day that would lean on the abuse.

Not always. In FFX, for example, they stayed until killed or dismissed.


I can see the summoner needed a nerf, especially the Eidolon and the armor training, but summon is what the summoner do. Howcome the wizard with the Conjuration School get an increase of duration by a number
of rounds equal to 1/2 wizard level (minimum 1).
The wizard is primary a caster, the summoner is not really a caster but a ...summoner. Give the summoner an equal ability.
edit:
And give him some more skill points per level.


Zark wrote:
but summon is what the summoner do.

Correction: Summoning Eidolons is what Summoners do.

Quote:

edit:

And give him some more skill points per level.

They already get ~6 per level, counting their Eidolon.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

I removed a post. It is possible to make a point without being insulting


In FFX, for example, they stayed until killed or dismissed. In combat they hung out for cut scenes and combat then back in the box. I agree (that hurt a fish to say) the eidolon was abusable. Mr. Fishy has played with the gamer that would optimize that sucker to the hilt(and break a party). But Mr. Fishy still wants a minute/level summon for a summoner even if it's a full round cast. Not a big fan of the eidolon. Mr. Fishy prefers the summon monster SLA. The skills were a little high for a PC and a intellgent "pet".


Zurai wrote:
Zark wrote:
but summon is what the summoner do.

Correction: Summoning Eidolons is what Summoners do.

Quote:

edit:

And give him some more skill points per level.
They already get ~6 per level, counting their Eidolon.

Summon Monster as a Sp is a class feature. On top of that he get Summon Monster as spells. I say summon is what the summoner does. Be it Summoning Eidolons, using Summon Monster as a SP or casting Summon Monster as a spell. We may not agree. Fine by me.

I wasn't talking about the Eidolon, but good point.


Mr.Fishy wrote:
In FFX, for example, they stayed until killed or dismissed. In combat they hung out for cut scenes and combat then back in the box. I agree (that hurt a fish to say) the eidolon was abusable. Mr. Fishy has played with the gamer that would optimize that sucker to the hilt(and break a party). But Mr. Fishy still wants a minute/level summon for a summoner even if it's a full round cast. Not a big fan of the eidolon. Mr. Fishy prefers the summon monster SLA. The skills were a little high for a PC and a intellgent "pet".

Mr Fishey, your not the only one who misses 1 minute summons.

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

Well, I am back from vacation and thought I would come to check in on this thread. I can see that not much has changed from a posting standpoint on this one, so I am going to lock this down for the time being. Rest assured that there are some more changes coming on this front and I think they should resolve some of the issues folks have with the revised class.

This thread is locked.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

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