Regeneration

[johnlocke90]

Klorox wrote:

does your native body a lot of good, especially with the tarradque rampaging in it.

Tarrasque isn't in my native body. Its in a jar.

[Azothath]

the classic way to never die is to retire the PC.

[Snowlilly]

johnlocke90 wrote:

Klorox wrote:

does your native body a lot of good, especially with the tarradque rampaging in it.

Tarrasque isn't in my native body. Its in a jar.

The jar is breakable.

Your lifeless body remains where you left it.

[Plausible Pseudonym]

Use Greater Possession, your real body vanishes for the duration of the possession. Greater Possession + Plane Shift to a plane where you can wait for planar conditions or natives to kill off your stolen body (or a custom demiplane to imprison it) is a pretty solid combo for anything that doesn't have a counter-aligned Protection From effect up.

[Diego Rossi]

johnlocke90 wrote:

CBDunkerson wrote:

Tarantula wrote:

So starting character around level 6, with a cracked pearly white ioun stone and wayfinder (total cost 3900GP), who is a half-orc with Endurance, Diehard and Deathless Initiate can't die and stays conscious while below 0 HP (provided he was originally above 0 when he activated the ioun stone and put it in the wayfinder) and he can act normally (taking a point of damage for full-round or move and standard).

As noted in the posts above, creatures with regeneration CAN and do die quite easily. Thus, even assuming the pearly white ioun stone provides full regeneration benefits (which is disputed)... one acid orb cantrip after you've been beaten down and you're a corpse.

I can't remember the last time an enemy used acid on me. Its fairly rare for enemies to have it.

Take the magic item of the fallen enemy is pretty common instead, especially a ioun stone. It is a bit evident even to the guy less knowledgeable about magic that you can find.

[Tarantula]

Diego Rossi wrote:

johnlocke90 wrote:

CBDunkerson wrote:

Tarantula wrote:

So starting character around level 6, with a cracked pearly white ioun stone and wayfinder (total cost 3900GP), who is a half-orc with Endurance, Diehard and Deathless Initiate can't die and stays conscious while below 0 HP (provided he was originally above 0 when he activated the ioun stone and put it in the wayfinder) and he can act normally (taking a point of damage for full-round or move and standard).

As noted in the posts above, creatures with regeneration CAN and do die quite easily. Thus, even assuming the pearly white ioun stone provides full regeneration benefits (which is disputed)... one acid orb cantrip after you've been beaten down and you're a corpse.

I can't remember the last time an enemy used acid on me. Its fairly rare for enemies to have it.

Take the magic item of the fallen enemy is pretty common instead, especially a ioun stone. It is a bit evident even to the guy less knowledgeable about magic that you can find.

That is why I stated to have a wayfinder compass. That lets you put the ioun stone in it while still gaining the effects, makes it much less obvious what is giving you regen. Then there is the additional problem of the deathless initiate still getting full actions while in negative hitpoints. Its hard to take away magic items from people who are actively opposing you.

That said, I don't think it works at level 6. The ioun stones (and ring of regeneration) don't actually call out giving you the regeneration ability, so you only happen to gain hitpoints somewhat quickly, not the full abilities of regeneration. Instead, level 12 druid half-orc deathless initiate can maintain wildshape of a plant with regen(acid). By picking the earth domain, you will have acid resistance 20, and then you would probably also want to focus your equipment to prevent/avoid acid damage as well. Benefits of the druid route is that there is no magic item to take (and even if there was, you're wildshaped so its melded into you).

[Ravingdork]

Just embed the ioun stone within yourself, and you can be like Melzalgald from the final episodes of One-Punch Man.

Can't kill me until you find my "heart."

[Tarantula]

Ok, new question regarding my deathless druid. How does non-lethal interact with orc ferocity/diehard/deathless initiate?

Say I have 50HP and regen 5 (acid). I take 50 damage, and am now Disabled. Orc ferocity/die hard only work below 0, so I am stuck at Disabled/Staggered here. If I take a standard action, I take 1 hp damage and can now use diehard/deathless initiate to act normally (taking my now remaining move action and also more damage).

If I am below 0 hp, I stay concious and can fight using diehard and deathless initiate and since I have regen (unless its been shut off) it doesn't matter how negative I go.

If I take 1 point of non-lethal damage, while in negative HP, my non-lethal exceeds current hitpoints, so I am unconscious and orc ferocity/diehard/deathless initiate seem to have no effect on this. Even being a plant and having plant traits (do not sleep) doesn't seem to make me unable to be knocked unconscious. Assuming my attacker continues to apply at least 5 non-lethal per turn to me, I would never wake up, and once wild shape ended, would die because I would lose regen.

Is that the intention of diehard with non-lethal damage? Harder to kill be who cares if you can just tap them once for non-lethal first?

[Snowblind]

The really stupid interaction between nonlethal damage and those other things is well known. The majority consensus is that yes, that is how it works. 1 point of nonlethal lays you out. It is really, really dumb, but since there is no reasonable reading of the rules which doesn't make the game broken then you are SOL unless you can get houserules to fix it.

[Tarantula]

Snowblind wrote:

The really stupid interaction between nonlethal damage and those other things is well known. The majority consensus is that yes, that is how it works. 1 point of nonlethal lays you out. It is really, really dumb, but since there is no reasonable reading of the rules which doesn't make the game broken then you are SOL unless you can get houserules to fix it.

Don't you normally have 0 non-lethal damage? In that case, wouldn't any negative HP be "less than 0" and therefore make the feat worthless? In that case, its pretty clear the feat does ignore being knocked out by non-lethal damage.

[Shoga]

Once you have em unconscious, throw down 2 Campfire Beads and wait. They's all dead now.

[Snowblind]

Tarantula wrote:

Snowblind wrote:

The really stupid interaction between nonlethal damage and those other things is well known. The majority consensus is that yes, that is how it works. 1 point of nonlethal lays you out. It is really, really dumb, but since there is no reasonable reading of the rules which doesn't make the game broken then you are SOL unless you can get houserules to fix it.

Don't you normally have 0 non-lethal damage? In that case, wouldn't any negative HP be "less than 0" and therefore make the feat worthless? In that case, its pretty clear the feat does ignore being knocked out by non-lethal damage.

You normally have no non-lethal damage. Null. Non-existant. Not zero, but [error - value not found]. Just like a rogue has no caster level, not a caster level of 0. Rogues can't make caster-level checks with a +0 bonus, and your character doesn't get knocked out until they take a single point of non-lethal damage.

[Tarantula]

It looks like Flagellant is the way to avoid being knocked out via non-lethal. Sad that it won't combo with kineticist though.

Now I'm wondering how Flagellant and Deathless Initiate work.

Assuming I'm at -10HP, and not dead, deathless initiate lets me not be staggered while using DieHard feat. Great. Now someone hits me for 1 non-lethal damage.

Flagellant lets me stay conscious even though current HP (-10) is less than Non-lethal damage (1), but it also staggers me. Does deathless initiate remove this staggered as well? I'm guessing not. Oh well, it at least lets him stay awake and fighting even if he takes some non-lethal.

[Snowlilly]

Ravingdork wrote:

Just embed the ioun stone within yourself, and you can be like Melzalgald from the final episodes of One-Punch Man.

Can't kill me until you find my "heart."

Off Topic:

Season two is confirmed :)

Drive Knight just moved way up my list of favorites with today's chapter.

[MrRetsej]

Ravingdork wrote:

Just embed the ioun stone within yourself, and you can be like Melzalgald from the final episodes of One-Punch Man.

Can't kill me until you find my "heart."

Still too obvious. Clearly the only solution is to "mule" that resonating wayfinder.

[Rajnish Umbra, Shadow Caller]

Also, as mentioned before, the whole "regeneration through ion stone" trick doesn't work anyway since, if you *actually* follow all those references to the end, you will find out that these ion stones don't give you proper regeneration, they just give you fast healing that regrows limbs.

You still die as usual.

[Tarantula]

Right. That's why I'm pursuing druid with wild shape (plant shape 3) at level 12 to get regen 5 (acid). Either a moss monster (medium) or tenebrous blight (huge) will give that. (Or any druid using a greater mask of giants to become a troll).

[Shinoskay]

Actually, Embedded clearly states that the stone joins with your skin... they do not say how or in what way that looks... so no it is not obvous. Aside from that, you can embed it anywhere... like, say, the ass? between the thighs? armpit? your backside under armor or cloth? generally you will have to put them down to find it. but I like the 'mule' option too ;p.

so, I WAS going to say

((Having Regeneration is what makes you deathless, there is no actual regeneration ability, and as such anything that gives you regeneration makes you undying. So the Ioun stone counts, unless you can show me something that says otherwise?))

But then I decided to actually look this up before I put my foot in my mouth and I saw that there is actually, in fact, a monster ability called regeneration that specifically states

((A creature with this ability is difficult to kill. Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning (although creatures with regeneration still fall unconscious when their hit points are below 0). Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, cause a creature’s regeneration to stop functioning on the round following the attack. During this round, the creature does not heal any damage and can die normally. The creature's descriptive text describes the types of damage that cause the regeneration to cease functioning.))

and the spell regen works as such ((The subject's severed body members (fingers, toes, hands, feet, arms, legs, tails, or even heads of multi-headed creatures), broken bones, and ruined organs grow back. After the spell is cast, the physical regeneration is complete in 1 round if the severed members are present and touching the creature. It takes 2d10 rounds otherwise.))

the question is whether or not the spell is just using lackluster wording to say it works like regeneration the ability (because they are worded the same at there core, minus the statement about the lack of death, just the spell has less description) or if Regen the monster ability is the odd one out... that is to say, is the ability the default or is the spell?

well, Looking at previous rules and the troll write up (the heard of regeneration) it would appear to me the RAI is troll and terrasque regen is the default and that a passive regen is equivalent to the regen monster ability. but then I am not your DM nor am I the game makers... is there a faq for this anywhere?

Additionally, Fire and Acid do not automatically stop all regenerations... that is silly to think and was only the case with Trolls because it says that on the troll, you can see that such stipulations are not the default with the Fireblooded troll that can only lose regeneration from acid and from the Terrasque that never loses regeneration and thus never dies no matter how much damage you do to it.

[Tarantula]

The ioun stones, ring of regeneration and regeneration spell don't state that you gain the regeneration ability. Stones and ring of regen just give you a rate that you heal HP. It doesn't give you the regeneration ability.

[Ravingdork]

Yeah, spells and magic items only do what they say they do, nothing more. For example, fireball does not set characters on fire even though there are rules that state characters exposed to fire are at risk of catching on fire. Likewise, lightning bolt does not travel through metal or disperse in water despite what real life physics say.

[Snowlilly]

Ravingdork wrote:

Likewise, lightning bolt does not travel through metal or disperse in water despite what real life physics say.

Aquatic Terrain wrote:

Some spells might function differently underwater, subject to GM discretion.

I rule all electricity spells generate an AoE, centered on the caster and that the surface of the water blocks line of effect for spells with the electricity descriptor.

[The Sideromancer]

Snowlilly wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

Likewise, lightning bolt does not travel through metal or disperse in water despite what real life physics say.

Aquatic Terrain wrote:

Some spells might function differently underwater, subject to GM discretion.

I rule all electricity spells generate an AoE, centered on the caster and that the surface of the water blocks line of effect for spells with the electricity descriptor.

Fresh water is not a great conductor.

[Snowlilly]

The Sideromancer wrote:

Snowlilly wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

Likewise, lightning bolt does not travel through metal or disperse in water despite what real life physics say.

Aquatic Terrain wrote:

Some spells might function differently underwater, subject to GM discretion.

I rule all electricity spells generate an AoE, centered on the caster and that the surface of the water blocks line of effect for spells with the electricity descriptor.

Fresh water is not a great conductor.

Chemically pure water is not a conductor, but I don't let real world physics intrude on my gaming.

[bbangerter]

Snowlilly wrote:

...but I don't let real world physics intrude on my gaming.

Says the guy using real world physics to turn electricity spells into AoE spells in water.

[Tarantula]

Snowlilly wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

Likewise, lightning bolt does not travel through metal or disperse in water despite what real life physics say.

Aquatic Terrain wrote:

Some spells might function differently underwater, subject to GM discretion.

I rule all electricity spells generate an AoE, centered on the caster and that the surface of the water blocks line of effect for spells with the electricity descriptor.

Do you also rule that lightning bolt doesn't work in a vacuum because there is nothing to conduct along?

[Snowlilly]

bbangerter wrote:

Snowlilly wrote:

...but I don't let real world physics intrude on my gaming.

Says the guy using real world physics to turn electricity spells into AoE spells in water.

It was the way things worked in first and second edition.

RAW in Patherfinder is GM discretion, so I continue using the original rules.

It has nothing to do with real world physics and everything to do with appealing to my inner grognard.

[Ravingdork]

Snowlilly wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

Likewise, lightning bolt does not travel through metal or disperse in water despite what real life physics say.

Aquatic Terrain wrote:

Some spells might function differently underwater, subject to GM discretion.

I rule all electricity spells generate an AoE, centered on the caster and that the surface of the water blocks line of effect for spells with the electricity descriptor.

Doesn't the water line provide total cover, thereby breaking line of effect, anyways?

[Snowlilly]

Ravingdork wrote:

Snowlilly wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

Likewise, lightning bolt does not travel through metal or disperse in water despite what real life physics say.

Aquatic Terrain wrote:

Some spells might function differently underwater, subject to GM discretion.

I rule all electricity spells generate an AoE, centered on the caster and that the surface of the water blocks line of effect for spells with the electricity descriptor.

Doesn't the water line provide total cover, thereby breaking line of effect, anyways?

Specific language is provided on the subject for fire spells.

Aquatic Rules wrote:

The surface of a body of water blocks line of effect for any fire spell. If the caster has made the caster level check to make the fire spell usable underwater, the surface still blocks the spell's line of effect.

As a specific exemption is included for fire, I would most likely allow spells like Magic Missile to function across the water's surface as long as there was line of sight.

I would certainly not rule the water's surface preventing line of effect for a spell like Ice Spears. Other spells, I would have to rule on a case-by-case basis.

[bbangerter]

Snowlilly wrote:

bbangerter wrote:

Snowlilly wrote:

...but I don't let real world physics intrude on my gaming.

Says the guy using real world physics to turn electricity spells into AoE spells in water.

It was the way things worked in first and second edition.

RAW in Patherfinder is GM discretion, so I continue using the original rules.

It has nothing to do with real world physics and everything to do with appealing to my inner grognard.

<<Wonders where earlier editions got the idea that electricity spells should do point blank AoE when underwater...>> :)

[Ravingdork]

This is the rule that I was (somewhat incorrectly) remembering:

A completely submerged creature has total cover against opponents on land unless those opponents have freedom of movement effects. Magical effects are unaffected except for those that require attack rolls (which are treated like any other effects) and fire effects.

[ckdragons]

... and how does this have anything to do with regeneration...

*Thread officially derailed*

[DrDeth]

Ilja wrote:

EDIT: Note that while regeneration is active, the creature is literally immortal and cannot die from anything. The only way to kill a creature with regeneration, apart from attacking it with it's weakness, is somehow removing it's regeneration.

No, death effects kill as normal.

[Shinoskay]

You cannot kill Regeneration, didnt you read that? it just gets knocked down for a bit but it always comes back.

[PaulH]

So,

There's CR 17 Devil with Regen and no weaknesses. So impossible to kill?

Apart from party spending rest of their mortal lives keeping monster down, is there NO way to deal with this?

Thanks
Paul H

[Tarik Blackhands]

Drown it.

Outsiders still need to breathe and I'm pretty sure it doesn't have the Tarrasque clause.

[Azten]

That won't work either. As long as Regen is in effect the creature cannot die. They'd just be unconscious and drowning forever.

Now where are those sale receipts for the onyx gem sales.

[Tarik Blackhands]

Oh drowning (and starvation for that matter, but Outsiders don't need to eat) work fine for killing regenerators.

Relevant text here from the monster rules:

Attack forms that don’t deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration. Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation.

Paizo also addresses this as a workable method for killing them in several APs, Hell's Rebels being the first to come to mind.

[Azten]

Adventure Paths are notorious for not following the rules. Since this is the Rules Question part of the board mistakes by writers/setting specific changes shouldn't be used as justification.

Regeneration will not allow a creature to die as long as the regeneration is active.

Relevant text, and text that tells us what happens when they go under 0 HP: Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning (although creatures with regeneration still fall unconscious when their hit points are below 0).

Note how it does say "cannot die from hit point loss" in that sentence.

[thaX]

Drowning works because it isn't HP damage, Trolls can still starve as they do not regen HP loss from Starvation.

Also keep in mind that using the relative materials/elements to stop the Regen does not need to get through the particular DR/Energy resistance to stop the regen for a round.

[dragonhunterq]

regeneration wrote:

The creature's descriptive text describes the types of damage that cause the regeneration to cease functioning.

Pretty sure it actually has to do damage to stop regeneration.

Also being unable to heal hit points lost to suffocation/starvation etc. is not the same thing as dying to them.

[Volkard Abendroth]

Legowaffles wrote:

DominusMegadeus wrote:

Ilja wrote:

So you can put a creature with regen 1 to -100000 hp, and after 100001 rounds they'll be awake and well again.

That's almost a week, for anyone curious.

Ya, but lets be honest, how long would it take to reduce someone to -100,000 HP?

About two rounds, if you are using mythic rules.

Personally, I advocate permanently paralyzing the more annoying creatures with regeneration and dumping their bodies someplace interesting, like a vat of green slime or the bottom of the ocean.

[Azten]

thaX wrote:

Trolls can still starve as they do not regen HP loss from Starvation.

And that's true, it just doesn't kill them. Drowning, likewise, wouldn't kill them unless what they were drowning could do at least one point of fire or acid damage each round.

Regeneration wrote:

They cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning.

[Sauce987654321]

Sorry if this was explained and I missed it

If you Coup De Grace a regenerating enemy that has regeneration still active and it fails the fort save, does it just take normal critical damage? Coup De Grace says that it kills them outright and mentions nothing of their health being lowered to the negatives equaling to their con score. It doesn't mention that the Coup De Grace deals that much damage to equal that, either.

If I had to rule it in the spot, I would say it takes normal damage.

[William Werminster]

PaulH wrote:

So,

There's CR 17 Devil with Regen and no weaknesses. So impossible to kill?

Apart from party spending rest of their mortal lives keeping monster down, is there NO way to deal with this?

Thanks
Paul H

It's probably a text errata. What devil are you talking about btw? Maybe it's a Unique monster and needs to be taken down on a flashy manner.

[Volkard Abendroth]

William Werminster wrote:

PaulH wrote:

So,

There's CR 17 Devil with Regen and no weaknesses. So impossible to kill?

Apart from party spending rest of their mortal lives keeping monster down, is there NO way to deal with this?

Thanks
Paul H

It's probably a text errata. What devil are you talking about btw? Maybe it's a Unique monster and needs to be taken down on a flashy manner.

With the exception of the Tarrasque and a few other godspawn, polymorph effects will typically remove regeneration.

[Tacticslion]

^^ that one ^^

[Scythia]

Here's what you do when an Outsider has Regeneration with no deactivation clause: Banish. :P

[Tarik Blackhands]

I'm going to pull up an actual example for the drowning thing to work.

Source Hell's Rebels Book 1.

Note that even if the PCs lack good weapons or
good spells to kill [NPC name Redacted], a handy method of killing
her exists in area F7—the stream. If she’s reduced to
negative hit points, [NPC name redacted] can be drowned in the water,
since regeneration does not protect against death by
suffocation (or drowning).

Don't think it can get more crystal clear than that regarding the devs intending for suffocation/starvation being viable ways to actually kill regenerators. And before anyone asks, yes the character does have proper Regeneration (5 good weapons or spells)

[Tacticslion]

Tarik Blackhands wrote:

Don't think it can get more crystal clear than that regarding the devs intending for suffocation/starvation being viable ways to actually kill regenerators.

I can, actually. It's actually done in-canon!

In Rise of the Runelords there is a point that I shan't discuss in detail, save to note that there are trolls. Within the text, it notes that there used to be more trolls than there are now: several of them were rendered unconscious, then tossed into a body of water, where they died (from drowning).

This is in-text and in-character: it is canonical that it happens in Golarion!

... the problem is, however, Golarion-specific rules don't always apply outside of Golarion, or in generic cases.

James Jacobs really wants them to, but he's been overridden at least once (in the specific case of clerics without deities: in Golarion, they must have deities, but in the Core rules, they don't need them).

Hence, it's definitely RAI, but it is much more questionable RAW (and, in fact, RAW, they can't die, due to grammar rules).

But, yeah, polymorph spells cover a multitude of errors.

[Volkard Abendroth]

Tarik Blackhands wrote:

I'm going to pull up an actual example for the drowning thing to work.

Source Hell's Rebels Book 1.

Note that even if the PCs lack good weapons or
good spells to kill [NPC name Redacted], a handy method of killing
her exists in area F7—the stream. If she’s reduced to
negative hit points, [NPC name redacted] can be drowned in the water,
since regeneration does not protect against death by
suffocation (or drowning).

Don't think it can get more crystal clear than that regarding the devs intending for suffocation/starvation being viable ways to actually kill regenerators. And before anyone asks, yes the character does have proper Regeneration (5 good weapons or spells)

AP scenarios are not rules sources. The authors frequently make rules errors or impose encounter specific house rules.