A T's page

I know this sounds a bit crazy but I would like to strip out all cultural references from the classes so that they can culturally be plugged into any cultural situation.

Some of the big offenders are barbarian and monk. Barbarian as your standard frenzied berserker could be broadened to encompass anybody who is stout and enters some kind of stance that gives them melee benefits. Dwarven defenders, whirling dervishes, honorable death trance samurai, crazy ass thugs in a dark alley all could fit the "barbarian" role mechanically.

A Monk has all kinds of mystical Asian cultural trappings. If you strip those you wind up with a guy (or girl) who uses their body as a weapon and has hyper focused in controlling their body. An almost unnatural ability to dodge and weave in combat and to strike quickly. They could represent "jedi" like characters, sword saints, kensai, duelists, heck even certain kinds of swashbucklers... not just I punch you characters.

Rangers and druids also could be stripped of their nature bent. I know it sounds crazy but why couldn't those just be option for them. Urban ranger is not a new concept and using the druid as just an elemental master, a shugenja or simply someone tied to the "old ones", or anything similar. Point is why can't any class have a nature bent, wilderness rogue = scout, wilderness fighter = brigand, wilderness cleric = shaman, wilderness wizard = witch doctor etc.

The cultural stuff could be stripped out of these classes so that they could stand in for many different cultural situations. Some classes are that way fighter wizard and some don't. It would be nice to have the classes consistent in that.

I could see having a ninja one. Not so much the ninjas of history as the ninjas of the legends of the time and modern fiction (who sometimes have access to magics or similar).

Multi-class Rogue/wizard or sorcerer or heck bard specializing in acrobatics!

If that 16th level character is a sword and board two weapon fighting ranger/fighter/rogue and has enchanted the lion's shield to be a +3 Flaming weapon and is flanking against their favored enemy...

It does seem a bit powerful regardless of if you can attack with it as part of your full round attacks or as a literal free action...

I can't take credit for this, I read it somewhere years back but it goes like this:

Make a tic-tac-toe grid and list STR, DEX, CON on one side and INT WIS CHA along the top. Roll 4d6 drop the lowest 9 times to fill in the grid. Then, you have to pick and choose the stats you want out of the rows and columns, each stat can only be used once. We also put a maximum total bonus and minimum total bonus, if you went outside that range you rolled again.

We used this system for years in my 3.5 games. It allows characters to not be as cookie cut as roll and choose or simply buying stats.

So this is what I did:

1. Removed the double weapons.

2. Created a version of most weapons as 1-1/2 handed (katana, scourge, maul, dire pick, warmace, etc).

But I'm still stuck: for the truly exotic, no problem, just spend a feat. But for the half-exotic?

I also thought of giving them a -2 penalty to hit when used with one hand, while creating a Mighty grip feat, that would remove this penalty for all 1-1/2.

In a past campaign, I removed the whole list of exotic weapons and made them martial. For double weapons, they simply required the two weapon fighting feats to make the most use of them. For the one and a half handed weapons, I combined monkey grip and something like your mighty grip feat to allow heavier weapons to be used in one hand without a penalty. The other truly exotic weapons are already weird, if a player wants to use one of them why force them to waste a feat on wielding an off-the-path-weapon that they will likely never get a better version of than what they have now.

So if you are willing to play with a house rule in this area, I think you are moving in the right direction.

Just curious - with Pathfinder so new and all, why are you houseruling a system that you haven't even really playtested yet? Sure, some of this is much like 3.5 and Pathfinder Beta, so it's easy to assume it's the same. And that's probably even a valid assumption for many rules. Still, it seems premature (to me) to be houseruling a brand new game system so early.

I see most of his house rules as common to 3.5 games: Do not roll for hit points, Do not roll for your starting gold, XP is not tracked, and Feat Retraining.

The rest of the rules are a little less common, some are good and some are too good:
The aid other rules are too good. Rolling multiple D20s and taking the best result is too good and it may have unforeseen consequences, especially in combat aid others.

The cover and charging rules are fine. Don't count your allies for cover or blocking charges, this is fine. It really benefits archers for firing into melee. Sounds like everyone gets precise shot as a bonus feat essentially and the duelist class feature acrobatic charge iirc.

The AoO rules are fine and will work. However, is it really worth it? I have played with alternate AoO rules in the past, I found them a chore for our table to keep straight, we were all so programmed in our use of the 3.5 rules that it was more work to not use them than to use them, be aware of that.

No Favored Classes. This I bet will become a very common PF house rule.

The recovery rules will work and your reasoning is sound with the CLW wand tax. However, it does fly a bit against the intent of the game. It removes this bookkeeping aspect of charges but it also removes the important money management portion of the wands. Also, the PF designers have put a lot of work into the cleric and paladin and made them top notch healers. This may be overkill. I like HP's representing equal parts stamina, luck and skill too but this one may not work in PF.

My take on 3.x and Pathfinder prestige classes is that they fall into three categories:

* the specialist (Assassin, Loremaster, etc.)
* the multiclass destination (Mystic Theurge, Arcane Archer, Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster, etc.)
* the concept (PF Chronicler)

Given that serious multiclassing is now very painful (due to the loss of progression in class abilities), I am wondering whether the second category should be expanded to accomodate more multiclass options. Obviously, many of these have already been attempted in 3.5 in the various splat books, but these will need some work to provide an adequate progression and capstone to match Pathfinder prestige classes.

I particularly liked many of the PrCs in Complete Adventurer, some of which essentially required three (!) classes in order to qualify.

I'm not saying all possible combinations need their own prestige class, by the way.

As a curious option you could add a feat that allows you to stack half your levels from two classes together in regards to class features (but no more than double).

Example:
if you wanted a paladin/monk (something that is far removed from any likely PrC coming down the pipe to fill this option) you could simply say that 1/2 you paladin levels stack with your monk levels in regard to class features and 1/2 you monk levels stack with your paladin levels in regard to your class features, but no more than double.

So if you had this feat, and you have a level 7 paladin/level 3 monk. The character would be level 7/3 for all your base stats (BAB/Saves/HP etc.) but his class features would be levels 8/6. Granting a couple extra features for this 10th level character, the character now has the class features at 14th level which seems comparable to what a PrC would have given him.

Cleric
Channel 3+CHA/Day [1d6/2 levels]
Spells

Paladin
Lay on Hands 1/2 level+CHA/Day [1d6/2 levels]
Channel (2 uses of Lay on hands)
Mercy
Spells

Can someone run some numbers for me at the various levels?

Compared to the old 3.5 Fighter, I'd agree. Compared to the PFRPG Fighter, I'm not sure this will be the case. With the greater number of feats plus weapon and armor class abilities, the Fighter is a solid, easy to play choice that can attack/defend all day. Comparatively, the martial adepts have to set up to use their actions/choose readied maneuvers/etc.

I am pretty confident that it is more powerful than a PF fighter. If you have players who do not see the potential for abuse there, then by all means use it. But... if you have players you may be concerned with then stay away far away. It really is not that hard to make a broken character out of that book. Hundreds of damage a round at mid levels, is too powerful imho. (You can even top a thousand with the right builds at mid upper)

Just be careful what you allow, it is one of the most broken books ever published. That said it does have some very neat ideas in it. One consequence of adding it is that the fighter will never get played - good, bad, I don't know you decide.

The feat seems a little strong compared to what it replaces - one of the main drawbacks of the "+2 to 2" feats was that each skill was only paired with one other skill in this way - and thus they encouraged you to pick skills that actually had synergy with each other to focus on.

Also, assuming Skill Synergy can be taken multiple times, it's strictly better than Skill Focus if you want to improve more than one skill via feats.

What would you suggest? Simply dropping those feats for skill focus alone? Considering there are fewer skills it may make a lot of sense to do that.

Here is an addendum:
The Versatile Performer bard class feature changes to:
Add +1/2 your level to any skill you use to perform with. Diplomacy when performing an oratory, Acrobatics when doing dance etc.

The +2 to two skill feats are all deleted and in their place this feat is added:
Skill Synergy
Add a +2 feat bonus to two skills.

*Sigh* Why is it everybody thinks that taking different levels destroys the roleplaying experience? The levels you take doesn't mean s~#* to your story your roleplaying, the two are separate.

A single character concept, unbroken by any roleplayed prestige classes. As I said before, just a framework of mechanics underneath a story.

I agree with this, but most people believe that if you know how to make a character you don't know how to role play. This is patently false they are completely different things.

You can be bad at making a character and bad at role playing or you can be good at making a character and good at role playing and anywhere in between.

Most people do not realize this, especially those who don't know how to make a character. It is a sticking point for people I have played with before.

The I-care-more-about-playing-a-no-bells-and-whistles-guy is noble enough and the been-there-done-that player is really looking for a new or unique angle. It just so happens that 3.5e is bloated enough that this actually plays into the been-there-done-that players hands. It is almost like, "Hey, he has bells and whistles and I don't" *pout*. And I say do your research...

That said, more equal footing to the two player types would be welcome:
1. I really would like to design my character organically and only have to worry about feat requirements, not feat requirements and PrC requirements.
2. I would like less choices in PrCs overlap. How many different fighter/mage combo PrC classes are/were there in 3.5? A boat load.
3. I would like a strong multi-classing rule for base classes. Some of the PrCs are like band-aids to the 3e multi-classing system.
4. I would simply like them to go away, PrCs become a huge potential for cherry picking a few levels of this and a few levels of that PrC. You need a Phd in 3e to get your character fleshed out at first level.

I don't like PrCs for a number of reasons.
1. I really would like to design my character organically and only have to worry about feat requirements, not feat requirements and PrC requirements.
2. PrCs overlap each other, how many different fighter/mage combo PrC classes are/were there in 3.5? A boat load.
3. Some of the PrCs are like band-aids to the 3e multi-classing system.
4. Even more to cherry pick, PrCs become a huge potential for cherry picking a few levels of this and a few levels of that PrC. You need a Phd in 3e to get your character fleshed out at first level.

I really like the concept of the ability of the DM to give some abilities to the players during game play for them to join a certain organization or group or gain a certain skill. I would prefer this be a more organic process though and not one where the PCs have to plan from level one to do it - it takes all of the charm out of it.

Alternatives:
fix the multi-classing system.
Give character PrC feature slots at every even level starting at 6. These would work just like feats except they could only be used for prestige feats.

I hope that the Oracle is more focused on spellcasting, and not as melee capable as clerics and favored souls. It doesn't make sense to me that every divine caster is proficient with weapons and armor, why wouldn't some be "squishy" like wizards and sorcerors.

Makes sense to me. I would be into a more class feature driven concept. One that gets more powers based on their domain. Wow, that is so flavorful I can almost taste it!

As for the other classes... I am HOPING for an Elementalist, a standard of fantasy literature that is nearly impossible to recreate using the core classes.

Already exists, Elemental Sorcerer.

From what I know now from the blurbs on the blog:
Alchemist - D
Cavalier - C
Oracle - A
Summoner - D
Unnamed classes - ?

I won't give any class a failing grade until I see the final product but where the Alchemist and Summoner may have a neat mechanical niche, they don't exactly strike me as base classes.

In fact, the Alchemist seems like a very weak Artificer that will get a lot of power by simply jimmying a lot power into the class unrealistically. Where are all of these self-using self-buffing potions effects coming from - a cleric list, a wizard list or all new effects? If they can be used by others it seems like it will be adding a whole new array of effects that really have never really existed in D&D. One day lifetime and timed to disenchant themselves potions? If the class is basically a wizard with craft potion feat, it does not work on its own. I think some form of "Artificer" would be better. Give them the ability to specialize in potion making or wand making or weapon and armor making or construct making, much more versatile conceptually.

The summoner is kind of a neat mechanical niche but couldn't this class be a PrC, it just really feels like one to me. Wizard with a powerful pet, why can't this simply be a wizard who specializes in this bent of magic (PrC)?

The Cavalier seems to be stealing some of the niche of the bard. The bard should/could have filled these mechanical shoes very easily and very well. The Cavalier could focus more on being a "knight" but then it would be stealing from the fighter. Given the choice I suppose it is better to steal from the bard. But even still, this also could have been a PrC very easily that either a bard or a fighter could get into. Either way I am sure it will be an interesting enough class, though it will steal thunder from the bard or fighter or both.

The Oracle is an excellent option and I really like this one conceptually as well as the suggested mechanics. I think this could simply replace the cleric all together if done right. If done wrong it will be a little used class next to the ultimately useful and powerful cleric.

The two unnamed classes I really hope will be the psion and some iteration or merging of the psychic warrior/soulknife.

One final thought, I think that Jason and the rest of the developers should really consider what they want from classes they create post core. As I see it there are two possible directions to go (and a small amount of gray area between), develop classes that have a really small niche and application (like summoner and alchemist) or ones with very broad niches and application (like that of the oracle). I believe one will create glut and the other will create game versatility.

What are the Bard's conceptual niche's?

1. Minstrel/poet/singer/musician
2. Jester/comedian/actor/dancer
3. Loremaster/historian/chronicler/sage
4. Gallant/swashbuckler/hero/fencer
5. Diplomat/leader/orator/commander

These are probably the five general areas that the bard fits into when a player think of how they will roleplay them. Some of them are possible with the RAW and others are not so much. The bard should not fill all 5 of the above role playing roles at once they should have ways to differentiate themselves. For instance I don't see a jester as a loremaster and I don't see the diplomat being a musician but I see all of them being part of the conceptual niche of the bard.

Mechanically, they only fill one role well (buffer). I personally feel they should fill many mechanical builds similar to the cleric. The cleric can be designed as a melee, ranged, summoner, blaster (weak), party buffer, etc. The bard should too.

Interesting grouping but I think that some of the items that where pooled together where rolled under different abilities. How would you handle the conflict in that for say Survival being a Wis Skill and Knowledge being and Int skill.

Excellent point. Here it is with the associated ability. Those in the [] are more or less standard but can be tweaked to perfection. Those in the {} are a bit of an interesting idea where you select the better of your two attributes to add to your skill. An interesting option and further departure from the raw, it certainly has a cinematic feel.

Also note that I added in the Pilot skill and also separated out the UMD skill from spell craft.

1. Acrobatics [DEX] {STR or DEX} (Acrobatics, Escape Artist, Perform Dance)
2. Athletics [STR] {STR or CON} (Climb, Fly, Ride, Swim)
3. Bluff [CHA] {INT or CHA} (Bluff, Disguise, Perform Act, Perform Comedy)
4. Build [INT] {STR or INT} (Appraise, Craft Structures, Craft Vehicles, Knowledge Engineering)
5. Craft [INT] {DEX or INT} (Appraise, Craft Armor, Craft Bows, Craft Weapons, Craft Items, Knowledge Engineering)
6. Diplomacy [CHA] {WIS or CHA} (Diplomacy, Perform Oratory)
7. Disable Device [INT] {DEX or INT} (Appraise, Craft Traps, Disable Device)
8. Finery [INT] {INT or CHA} (Appraise, Craft Art Objects)
9. Handle Animal [CHA] {WIS or CHA} (Handle Animal)
10. Heal [INT] {WIS or CHA} (Heal)
11. Intimidate [CHA] {STR or CHA} (Intimidate)
12. Knowledge [INT] {INT or CHA} (Knowledge History, Knowledge Local, Knowledge Nobility, Knowledge Religion)
13. Linguistics [INT] {INT or CHA} (Linguistics)
14. Perception [WIS] {INT or WIS} (Perception, Sense Motive)
15. Perform [CHA] {DEX or CHA} (Perform Keyboard Instruments, Perform Percussion Instruments , Perform String Instruments, Perform Wind Instruments, Perform Sing)
16. Pilot [DEX] {DEX or INT} (Profession Sailor)
17. Profession [INT] {INT or CHA} (Profession All)
18. Sleight of Hand [DEX] {DEX or CHA} (Slieght of Hand)
19. Spellcraft [INT] {INT or CHA} (Spellcraft, Appraise, Craft Alchemy, Knowledge Arcana, Knowledge Planes)
20. Stealth [DEX] {DEX or WIS} (Stealth)
21. Survival [INT] {INT or WIS} (Survival, Knowledge Dungeoneering, Knowledge Geography, Knowledge Nature)
22. Use Magic Device [INT] {INT or CHA} (Use Magic Device)

Seems good, though there are two things I'd personaly try.

1. Keep Use Magic device seperate, it's good enough to work on it's own, and generally I don't see standard spellcasters using it that much (they have spells, so they would have less need to learn such a skill).

This probably make more sense than dropping it into the spellcraft skill because then there is no need to add the UMD class feature to the bard, rogue and sorcerer.

2. Probably shuffle intimidate into diplomacy, just because they seem similer to me in a sense, and intimidate seems a little weak on it's own compared to the others.

I can see where some games this would be cool to do but I personally favor the three separate ways of socially dealing with situations (bluff/diplomacy/intimidate).

This Skill list is for those who want to add the option of having a less granular skill list and still maintain all of the mechanics.

Here is how it works, if your class had one of the skills previously available then they now have the new skill.

The only exception to this is the Craft skill which gives you Craft and Build, and Appraise which gives you Finery. I would also make UMD a class feature of the Bard, Rogue and Sorcerer that is rolled off of the Spellcraft skill. Finally, I would add in a Pilot skill and give everyone access to it, except perhaps the Monk.

Original Skill List
1. Acrobatics
2. Appraise
3. Bluff
4. Climb
5. Craft Alchemy
6. Craft Armor
7. Craft Bows
8. Craft Traps
9. Craft Weapons
10. Craft Items
11. Craft Structures
12. Craft Vehicles
13. Craft Art Objects
14. Diplomacy
15. Disable Device
16. Disguise
17. Escape Artist
18. Fly
19. Handle Animal
20. Heal
21. Intimidate
22. Knowledge Arcana
23. Knowledge Dungeoneering
24. Knowledge Engineering
25. Knowledge Geography
26. Knowledge History
27. Knowledge Local
28. Knowledge Nature
29. Knowledge Nobility
30. Knowledge Planes
31. Knowledge Religion
32. Linguistics
33. Perception
34. Perform Act
35. Perform Comedy
36. Perform Dance
37. Perform Keyboard Instruments
38. Perform Percussion Instruments
39. Perform String Instruments
40. Perform Wind Instruments
41. Perform Oratory
42. Perform Sing
43. Profession
44. Ride
45. Sense Motive
46. Sleight of Hand
47. Spellcraft
48. Stealth
49. Survival
50. Swim
51. Use Magic Device

New Skill List
1. Acrobatics (Acrobatics, Escape Artist, Perform Dance)
2. Athletics (Climb, Fly, Ride, Swim)
3. Bluff (Bluff, Disguise, Perform Act, Perform Comedy)
4. Build (Appraise, Craft Structures, Craft Vehicles, Knowledge Engineering)
5. Craft (Appraise, Craft Armor, Craft Bows, Craft Weapons, Craft Items, Knowledge Engineering)
6. Diplomacy (Diplomacy, Perform Oratory)
7. Disable Device (Appraise, Craft Traps, Disable Device)
8. Finery (Appraise, Craft Art Objects)
9. Handle Animal (Handle Animal)
10. Heal (Heal)
11. Intimidate (Intimidate)
12. Knowledge (Knowledge History, Knowledge Local, Knowledge Nobility, Knowledge Religion)
13. Linguistics (Linguistics)
14. Perception (Perception, Sense Motive)
15. Perform (Perform Keyboard Instruments, Perform Percussion Instruments , Perform String Instruments, Perform Wind Instruments, Perform Sing)
16. Profession (Profession All)
17. Sleight of Hand (Slieght of Hand)
18. Spellcraft (Spellcraft, Appraise, Craft Alchemy, Knowledge Arcana, Knowledge Planes, Use Magic Device)
19. Stealth (Stealth)
20. Survival (Survival, Knowledge Dungeoneering, Knowledge Geography, Knowledge Nature)

I know it is not RAW, but the bard that I have added here does address many of the problems that people are having with it and it is conceptually very pathfinder like. The biggest thing is it added talents that are selectable.

So here is a list of the things that I changed, I am sure I won't get them all but I will try anyway.

The biggest change was the implementation of talents it uses the same format as the rogues every even level you pick one and at tenth you can begin selecting advanced ones. Most of the bardic performances are now here. The only stock performance is the fascinate performance, I felt this one should stay and be universal to all bards. Some of the talents I got from the rogue list others I made up and others were from the bards own class features. My concern is that I have not given the bard enough talents, these are the life blood of the bard and so they need mor than a rogue who also has many other features to fall back on in addition to their talents. In a revision these might be increased.

Versatile performer is a 1st level ability that affects all of your performance skills. So it is just a matter of getting the two adjoining skills at 1/2 price basically. Example sing gives bluff and sense motive so you will have both skill at the cost of 1 - perform (sing).

I added sonic resistance to the well-versed class feature because well, they should have it.

Now on to the specific talents:

Armor training is for chivalrous bard who still wants to cast spells while in heavier armor.

Countersong and distraction were combined, I cannot see selecting this one without them combined like this.

Note that many of the songs are now selectable at a lower level than they were previously available. I felt this was ok, even in the case of suggestion, which required the limited use of the fascinate performance.

Lingering performance is a must for those bards who want to provide bonuses it can effectively double the number of uses per round per day.

Quick performance is also very handy for getting your performances off quicly as a move action, this was removed from the text of performance and as a talent. The swift version became an advanced talent.

The sound burst and shout performances were a way that many people feel like a bard should be able to do some sonic damage utilizing their performance resources and this allows for that and in fact can be qouit powerful when coupled with quick/swift performance talents.

I gave them trapfinding so that they could also become rogue like with this talent this is more to take some of the we have to have a rogue pressure that can happen when dealing with a dungeon with a lot of traps.

Vicious Taunt is a new performance that I added, I have always thought that the bard needed something like this in their repertoire.

I gave them the possibility of getting evasion at the upper levels, it seemed thematically appropriate for them.

Inspire greatness and inspire heroics I made them to allow the bard to affect a number of people equal 1 per five levels they have much simpler and more powerful initially but weaker at the top end levels (at least for the number of people these can affect).

Jack of all trades is made simpler and better by simply allowing all skills and making all skills class skills.

Deadly performance is still the cap stone and not an advanced talent.

Hopefully this new and better version of the bard will allay some of the concerns that people are having with the bard. Please feel free to add new talents and give insight and inspiration into this new version of the class so that we can all use it.

Bard
Untold wonders and secrets exist for those skillful enough to discover them. Through cleverness, talent, and magic, these cunning few unravel the wiles of the world, becoming adept in the arts of persuasion, manipulation, and inspiration. Typically masters of one or many forms of artistry, bards possess an uncanny ability to know more than they should and use what they learn to keep themselves and their allies ever one step ahead of danger. Bards are quick-witted and captivating, and their skills might lead them down many paths, be they gamblers or jacks-of-all-trades, scholars or performers, leaders or scoundrels, or even all of the above. For bards, every day brings its own opportunities, adventures, and challenges, and only by bucking the odds, knowing the most, and being the best might they claim the treasures of each.
Role: Bards capably confuse and confound their foes while inspiring their allies to ever-greater daring. While accomplished with both weapons and magic, the true strength of bards lies outside melee, where they can support their companions and undermine their foes without fear of interruptions to their performances.

Alignment: Any.

Hit Die: d8.

Class Skills
The bard's class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Stealth (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

Skill Ranks per Level: 6 + Int modifier.

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the bard.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A bard is proficient with all simple weapons, plus the longsword, rapier, sap, short sword, shortbow, and whip. Bards are also proficient with light armor and shields (except tower shields). A bard can cast bard spells while wearing light armor and use a shield without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. Like any other arcane spellcaster, a bard wearing medium or heavy armor incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component. A multiclass bard still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.

Spells: A bard casts arcane spells drawn from the bard spell list presented in Spell Lists. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. Every bard spell has a verbal component (song, recitation, or music). To learn or cast a spell, a bard must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a bard's spell is 10 + the spell level + the bard's Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a bard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Bard. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells).

The bard's selection of spells is extremely limited. A bard begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of the bard's choice. At each new bard level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Bard Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a bard knows is not affected by his Charisma score. The numbers on Table: Bard Spells Known are fixed.)

Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third bard level after that (8th, 11th, and so on), a bard can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the bard “loses” the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least one level lower than the highest-level bard spell the bard can cast. A bard may swap only a single spell at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.

A bard need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell's level.

Bardic Performance: A bard is trained to use the Perform skill to create magical effects on those around him, including himself if desired. He can use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + his Charisma modifier. At each level after 1st a bard can use bardic performance for 2 additional rounds per day. Each round, the bard can produce any one of the types of bardic performance that he has mastered, as indicated by his level.

Starting a bardic performance is a standard action, but it can be maintained each round as a free action. Changing a bardic performance from one effect to another requires the bard to stop the previous performance and start a new one as a standard action. A bardic performance cannot be disrupted, but it ends immediately if the bard is killed, paralyzed, stunned, knocked unconscious, or otherwise prevented from taking a free action to maintain it each round. A bard cannot have more than one bardic performance in effect at one time.

Each bardic performance has audible components, visual components, or both.

If a bardic performance has audible components, the targets must be able to hear the bard for the performance to have any effect, and such performances are language dependent. A deaf bard has a 20% chance to fail when attempting to use a bardic performance with an audible component. If he fails this check, the attempt still counts against his daily limit. Deaf creatures are immune to bardic performances with audible components.

If a bardic performance has a visual component, the targets must have line of sight to the bard for the performance to have any effect. A blind bard has a 50% chance to fail when attempting to use a bardic performance with a visual component. If he fails this check, the attempt still counts against his daily limit. Blind creatures are immune to bardic performances with visual components.

Fascinate (Su): A bard can use his performance to cause one or more creatures to become fascinated with him. Each creature to be fascinated must be within 90 feet, able to see and hear the bard, and capable of paying attention to him. The bard must also be able to see the creatures affected. The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents this ability from working. For every three levels the bard has attained beyond 1st, he can target one additional creature with this ability.

Each creature within range receives a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the bard's level + the bard's Cha modifier) to negate the effect. If a creature's saving throw succeeds, the bard cannot attempt to fascinate that creature again for 24 hours. If its saving throw fails, the creature sits quietly and observes the performance for as long as the bard continues to maintain it. While fascinated, a target takes a –4 penalty on all skill checks made as reactions, such as Perception checks. Any potential threat to the target allows the target to make a new saving throw against the effect. Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect.

Fascinate is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting ability. Fascinate relies on audible and visual components in order to function.

Cantrips: Bards learn a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, as noted on Table: Bard Spells Known under “Spells Known.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they do not consume any slots and may be used again.

Versatile Performance (Ex): A bard can use his bonus in a perform skill in place of his bonus in associated skills. When substituting in this way, the bard uses his total Perform skill bonus, including class skill bonus, in place of its associated skill's bonus, whether or not he has ranks in that skill or if it is a class skill.

The types of Perform and their associated skills are: Act (Bluff, Disguise), Comedy (Bluff, Intimidate), Dance (Acrobatics, Fly), Keyboard Instruments (Diplomacy, Intimidate), Oratory (Diplomacy, Sense Motive), Percussion (Handle Animal, Intimidate), Sing (Bluff, Sense Motive), String (Bluff, Diplomacy), and Wind (Diplomacy, Handle Animal).

Well-Versed (Ex): A bard becomes resistant to the bardic performance of others, and to sonic effects in general. The bard gains a +4 bonus on saving throws made against bardic performance, sonic, and language-dependent effects. A bard also gains sonic resistance 5 this increases to 10 at 6th and 15 at 11th and 20 at 16th level.

Bard Talents: As a bard gains experience, she learns a number of talents that aid her and confound her foes. Starting at 2nd level, a bard gains one bard talent. She gains an additional bard talent for every 2 levels of bard attained after 2nd level. A bard cannot select an individual talent more than once.

Talents marked with an asterisk add new bardic performances to their repertoire. All of the rules for bardic performances apply to these new performance options.

Armor Training: A bard that selects this talent can wear medium armor and incurs no spell failure while doing so, as if wearing light armor.

Bardic Knowledge (Ex): A bard that selects this talent adds half his class level (minimum 1) to all Knowledge skill checks and may make all Knowledge skill checks untrained.

Combat Trick: A Bard that selects this talent gains a bonus combat feat (see Feats).

Countersong and Distraction (Su)*: A bard that selects this talent learns to counter magic effects that depend on sound (but not spells that have verbal components). Each round of the countersong he makes a Perform (keyboard, percussion, wind, string, or sing) skill check. Any creature within 30 feet of the bard (including the bard himself) that is affected by a sonic or language-dependent magical attack may use the bard's Perform check result in place of its saving throw if, after the saving throw is rolled, the Perform check result proves to be higher. If a creature within range of the countersong is already under the effect of a noninstantaneous sonic or language-dependent magical attack, it gains another saving throw against the effect each round it hears the countersong, but it must use the bard's Perform skill check result for the save. Countersong does not work on effects that don't allow saves. Countersong relies on audible components.

A bard can also use this performance to counter magic effects that depend on sight. Each round of the distraction, he makes a Perform (act, comedy, dance, or oratory) skill check. Any creature within 30 feet of the bard (including the bard himself) that is affected by an illusion (pattern) or illusion (figment) magical attack may use the bard's Perform check result in place of its saving throw if, after the saving throw is rolled, the Perform skill check proves to be higher. If a creature within range of the distraction is already under the effect of a noninstantaneous illusion (pattern) or illusion (figment) magical attack, it gains another saving throw against the effect each round it sees the distraction, but it must use the bard's Perform skill check result for the save. Distraction does not work on effects that don't allow saves. Distraction relies on visual components.

Dirge of Doom (Su)*: A bard that selects this talent can use his performance to foster a sense of growing dread in his enemies, causing them to become shaken. To be affected, an enemy must be within 30 feet and able to see and hear the bard's performance. The effect persists for as long as the enemy is within 30 feet and the bard continues his performance. This performance cannot cause a creature to become frightened or panicked, even if the targets are already shaken from another effect. Dirge of doom is a mind-affecting fear effect, and it relies on audible and visual components.

Fast Stealth (Ex): This ability allows a Bard to move at full speed using the Stealth skill without penalty.

Finesse Bard: A Bard that selects this talent gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat.

Inspire Courage (Su)*: A bard that selects this talent can use his performance to inspire courage in his allies (including himself), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to perceive the bard's performance. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 competence bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. At 5th level, and every six bard levels thereafter, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +4 at 17th level. Inspire courage is a mind-affecting ability. Inspire courage can use audible or visual components. The bard must choose which component to use when starting his performance.

Inspire Competence (Su)*: A bard that selects this talent can use his performance to help an ally succeed at a task. That ally must be within 30 feet and be able to hear the bard. The ally gets a +2 competence bonus on skill checks with a particular skill as long as she continues to hear the bard's performance. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels the bard has attained beyond 3rd (+3 at 7th, +4 at 11th, +5 at 15th, and +6 at 19th). Certain uses of this ability are infeasible, such as Stealth, and may be disallowed at the GM's discretion. A bard can't inspire competence in himself. Inspire competence relies on audible components.

Ledge Walker (Ex): This ability allows a Bard to move along narrow surfaces at full speed using the Acrobatics skill without penalty. In addition, a Bard with this talent is not flat-footed when using Acrobatics to move along narrow surfaces.

Lingering Performance: A bard’s performances now linger for 1 round after the bard has stopped the performance. A performance that is lingering may overlap with another bardic performance.

Lore Master (Ex): A bard that selects this talent becomes a master of lore and can take 10 on any Knowledge skill check that he has ranks in. A bard can choose not to take 10 and can instead roll normally. In addition, once per day, the bard can take 20 on any Knowledge skill check as a standard action. He can use this ability one additional time per day for every six levels he possesses beyond 5th, to a maximum of three times per day at 17th level.

Quick Performance: A bard that selects this talent can now begin a bardic performance as a move action.

Sound Burst (Su)*: A bard that selects this talent can use his performance to create an effect equivalent to the sound burst spell. Shout relies on audible components.

Suggestion (Sp)*: A bard that selects this talent can use his performance to make a suggestion (as per the spell) to a creature he has already fascinated (see above). Using this ability does not disrupt the fascinate effect, but it does require a standard action to activate (in addition to the free action to continue the fascinate effect). A bard can use this ability more than once against an individual creature during an individual performance.

Making a suggestion does not count against a bard's daily use of bardic performance. A Will saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 the bard's level + the bard's Cha modifier) negates the effect. This ability affects only a single creature. Suggestion is an enchantment (compulsion), mind affecting, language-dependent ability and relies on audible components.

Trapfinding: A bard that selects this talent adds 1/2 her level to Perception skill checks made to locate traps and to Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1). A bard can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.

Vicious Taunt (Su)*: A bard that selects this talent can use his performance to make a single target within 30’ enraged with the bard. The target will attempt to attack the bard if able either verbally in a social situation or physically in a combat one. A Will saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 the bard's level + the bard's Cha modifier) negates the effect. Vicious Taunt is an enchantment (compulsion), mind affecting, language-dependent ability and relies on audible components.

Weapon Proficiency: A bard that selects this talent gains either we Martial Weapon Proficiency feat or Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat.

Weapon Training: A Bard that selects this talent gains Weapon Focus as a bonus feat.

Advanced Talents: At 10th level, and every two levels thereafter, a Bard can choose one of the following advanced talents in place of a Bard talent.

Evasion (Ex): A bard that selects this talent can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the bard is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless bard does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Feat: A bard may gain any feat that she qualifies for in place of a bard talent.

Frightening Tune (Sp)*: To select this talent the bard must have selected the dirge of doom talent. A bard that selects this talent can use his performance to cause fear in his enemies. To be affected, an enemy must be able to hear the bard perform and be within 30 feet. Each enemy within range receives a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the bard's level + the bard's Cha modifier) to negate the effect. If the save succeeds, the creature is immune to this ability for 24 hours. If the save fails, the target becomes frightened and flees for as long as the target can hear the bard's performance. Frightening tune relies on audible components.

Improved Lingering Performance: To select this talent the bard must have selected the lingering performance talent. A bard’s performances now linger for 3 rounds after the bard has stopped the performance. A performance that is lingering may overlap with another bardic performance.

Inspire Greatness (Su)*: A bard that selects this talent can use his performance to inspire greatness in himself or willing allies within 30 feet, granting extra fighting capability. For every five bard levels, he can affect one creature while using this performance. To inspire greatness, all of the targets must be able to see and hear the bard. A creature inspired with greatness gains 2 bonus Hit Dice (d10s), the commensurate number of temporary hit points (apply the target's Constitution modifier, if any, to these bonus Hit Dice), a +2 competence bonus on attack rolls, and a +1 competence bonus on Fortitude saves. The bonus Hit Dice count as regular Hit Dice for determining the effect of spells that are Hit Dice dependent. Inspire greatness is a mind-affecting ability and it relies on audible and visual components.

Inspire Heroics (Su)*: A bard that selects this talent can inspire tremendous heroism in himself or willing allies within 30 feet. For every five bard levels, he can affect one creature while using this performance. To inspire heroics, all of the targets must be able to see and hear the bard. Inspired creatures gain a +4 morale bonus on saving throws and a +4 dodge bonus to AC. This effect lasts for as long as the targets are able to witness the performance. Inspire heroics is a mind-affecting ability that relies on audible and visual components.

Jack-of-All-Trades (Ex): A bard that selects this talent can use any skill, even if the skill normally requires him to be trained and the bard considers all skills to be class skills.

Mass Suggestion (Sp)*: To select this talent the bard must have select the suggestion talent. This ability functions just like suggestion, but allows a bard to make a suggestion simultaneously to any number of creatures that he has already fascinated. Mass suggestion is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting, language-dependent ability that relies on audible components.

Skill Mastery: A bard that selects this talent becomes so confident in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions.

Upon gaining this ability, she selects a number of skills equal to 3 + her Intelligence modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so. A Bard may gain this special ability multiple times, selecting additional skills for skill mastery to apply to each time.

Slippery Mind (Ex): This ability represents the Bard's ability to wriggle free from magical effects that would otherwise control or compel her. If a Bard with slippery mind is affected by an enchantment spell or effect and fails her saving throw, she can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC. She gets only this one extra chance to succeed on her saving throw.

Shout (Su)*: To select this talent the bard must have select the sound burst talent. A bard that selects this talent can use his performance to create an effect equivalent to the shout spell. At 16th level this improves to greater shout. Shout relies on audible components.

Soothing Performance (Su)*: A bard that selects this talent can use his performance to create an effect equivalent to a mass cure serious wounds, using the bard's level as the caster level. In addition, this performance removes the fatigued, sickened, and shaken conditions from all those affected. Using this ability requires 4 rounds of continuous performance, and the targets must be able to see and hear the bard throughout the performance. Soothing performance affects all targets that remain within 30 feet throughout the performance. Soothing performance relies on audible and visual components.

Swift Performance: A bard that selects this talent can now begin a bardic performance as a swift action.

Deadly Performance (Su)*: A bard of 20th level or higher can use his performance to cause one enemy to die from joy or sorrow. To be affected, the target must be able to see and hear the bard perform for 1 full round and be within 30 feet. The target receives a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the bard's level + the bard's Cha modifier) to negate the effect. If a creature's saving throw succeeds, the target is staggered for 1d4 rounds, and the bard cannot use deadly performance on that creature again for 24 hours. If a creature's saving throw fails, it dies. Deadly performance is a mind-affecting death effect that relies on audible and visual components.

I am adding my TALENTED bard to the house rules section please take a look at it and let me know what you think.

You could give the bonus HP and then when they level up they add no hp until their running HP total without the bonus surpasses their bonus HP.

Does that make sense?
So a 14th level character is going to have the same number of HP. But 1st level characters will not.

In a way it is like giving 2HD at first level and none at 2nd and then continuing on from there... Hmm, that's not so bad...

THIS IS EASY:
They need no special rules, just duplicate the crossbow hand/light/heavy for pistol/short musket/long musket.

If you really wanted to add rules you could make them longer to load than a crossbow but easy to use (simple weapons) and you could if you really wanted add +1 damage or something to account for more punching power than a crossbow to combat DR better.

If you really wanted to get into house rule land I like the concept of giving non-strength based weapons a "virtual" strength score for damage. I can see giving crossbows a 14 to 18 strength and guns an 16 to 20 depending on the particular barrel length or bow tension.

I do agree that the ranger is a good fit for this class. The stealth abilities match well with the ranger and the shadow companion would benefit from the higher BAB and higher hit points of the ranger. But as Zark pointed out your offense quickly tapers off.

It tapers off quite a bit more for the other 3 entry classes.

Monk - don't even think about it.
Rogue - lose sneak attack? don't even think about it.
Bard - loses a whole lot of spell casting and bardic music does not increase.

Ranger loses what, favored enemy improvements and quarry

Out of the four I think ranger loses the least...

Again I am not saying it is good or even preferred, in fact I think the class sucks but Ranger still loses the least imho.

Oops 15th level is 8th level spells, so 8th and 9th level spells are epic 7th are too but will call them the top end of the non-epic feel of the game. Anyway 15th level+ is epic feel already give access to epic feats at that level, tack on a system where characters can continue to level above 20 and be done.

It looks like my thoughts are duplicated here already but I think that levels 15+ are epic. I think that the epic feats should be moved down into that range. I think that were spellcasters get some of their most powerful spells in that range (spell levels 7-9) the non-spellcasters are squandering waiting to gain access to powerful epic feats. I think a lot could be done to improve this range. I don't think the game should end at 20 I think it should keep going but I think that mystical magical point where you are considered epic should happen around 15 not 21. When the spellcaster grabs that first 7th level spell the fighter should be able to grab that 1st epic feat to make him just as ridiculous.

Again I don't think the game should end at 20, after 20 just give everyone +1/2 BAB and saves and +1d6 HD (corresponding with BAB) and be done with it, they still collect Skill Points (perhaps a set amount and they should max out at +20) and feats as normal but all class features end. Class features can be improved with feats.

No new rules really have to be written. In fact these simple rules could have very easily been incorporated into the main Rulebook.

With the following rules above I think the epic feats is where you could make a whole supplement (along with a DM section and a bestiary). Make feats that give bonus spell slots, feats that give all manner of pseudo class features to those of a particular class. Again access to these feats should begin at 15.

So my vision of how an epic character would be stated out would be:
fighter 4/Wizard 16/epic 10 this would be a level 30 character. The epic levels would give +5 BAB and saves, it would give 5 more feats and 2 more ability boosts etc. And then of course epic feats would be available at level 15+. So this character could have up to 8 epic feats (15, 17, 19, 21, 23, 25, 27 and 29). Easy sweet and intuitive.

I think the SD is a very good ranger PrC.

From beta the requirements to get in:
Skills: Stealth 5 ranks, Perform (dance) 2 ranks.
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility.

Easy as pie for a ranger, and it adds some pretty good stealth option for them and neat trickery stuff. The only thing the ranger really misses is spellcasting and full BAB in most other cases he gains many of his class features earlier and they offer a different take on the class.

Overall though I agree that this PrC is underpowered. It is weaker than the base classes and is not different enough to warrant a PrC.

Entry classes
Ranger --> wants full BAB
Rogue --> wants sneak attack
Bard --> wants bardic music
Monk --> wants monk stuff

For all of these classes ranger makes the best sense to go in because they lose the least. This is a ranger PrC.

I don't think they need anything, to be honest. Granting them spells or some bonus just steps of other classes toes, like your fighter that out smites a paladin by far and many more times a day. It also makes all classes very similar.

Their 1/2 caster level could however be useful, like if they picked up a magic staff, and there are (in 3.5) a lot of feats that require a caster level (that actually give you a few spells 1/day). Or if they later decide to branch out into casting/psionics. Additionally, it can open up some PC options.

Back in the day, (several months ago) I was prognosticating the +1/2 level no more than double fix. Search for the thread. In that thread we decided MT is still usable but all PrCs do NOT add the +1/2 to the classes.

I personally love this fix, it is simple balanced and you don't have to go through the clunky first 6 levels of an MT build or any other fix-it PrC build. It is there from level

I don't think I would do it at all. I think this thread might be more helpful to you if you share your reasons for wanting to do this - people may be more able or willing to find a solution for you if we can understand the goal behind your houserule.

Mostly to increase the effectiveness of the paladin/ranger/bard. And just a bit of rules tinkering to get fewer spell lists.

This is dangerous.

For example, Rangers get Delay Poison as a level 1 spell. This lets them use it as early as 4th level, which is still slower than a druid. Put it back to level 2 for a ranger, and now they have to wait all the way til level 7 to use it.

It is dangerous, but I think that at the end of the day one could gain more than lose...

Taking away an awful lot from the bard. All their heals. And the following spells are currently on the BETA bard list but all of them will go away: Blindness/Deafness, Cause Fear, Dancing Lights, Darkness, Daylight, Delay Poison (why is this Conjuration?), Dimension Door, Eyebite, Fear, Flare, Glitterdust, Grease, Heroe's Feast, Light, Neutralize Poison, Prestidigitation, Scare, Shatter, Shout, Shout Greater, Sound Burst, Summon Instrument, Summon Monster 1, Summon Monster 2, Summon Monster 3, Summon Monster 4, Summon Monster 5, Summon Monster 6, Summon Swarm, and Unseen Servant.

Some of those spells seem...

I never was a fan of the "fear" spells moving to necromancy but that is neither here nor there. there are some key bard effects in there but there are also some effects that are alright seeing go for the added diversity of spells that they would gain.

Some spells are Bard-only like Summon Musical Instrument or Good Hope which are that way because of theme. Also you would be creating a huge nerf to the bard class moving spells completely off its list since it would no longer be getting them.

Would you really care if a sorcerer took summon musical instrument?

Also, would you also want to take out all healing spells from the bard list? I have seen many parties where the sole healer is a bard.

This is a difficult choice but yeah remove it. Perhaps give a bardic performance class feature that heals, 1d6 per round performed. Then with the UMD skill CLW wands and other healing stuff can still get used.

Now you may be coming from this from an viewpoint that Ranger/Paladin/Bard are overpowered, although I'm not sure how much that will fly with most people. The question I'm getting to is: Why do you want to merge the spell lists? Is it for simplicity or for balancing of power?

Actually I coming from the opposite viewpoint of *giving* the Ranger/Paladin/Bard more spell access. By altering/deleting the few closet case spells you wind up with the ability to have a much more varied group of classes.

Your making Holy Sword a 4th level Cleric spell?

What about Lesser Restoration? 1st or 2nd level?

It would be 2nd level, the cleric list would take precedence.

As to the other comments, any paladin only, ranger only or bard only spell could be converted to a comparable level of where they would have received the spell. The other way to approach it would be to keep them the same level as before. In this case, Holy sword could remain a 4th level spell. Is holy sword game breaking at 4th? Perhaps change the bonus to scale rather than being +5, maybe +1 per 3 cleric caster levels getting it all the way up to +6 at higher levels. I think it would not be so bad.

Is there a list of lesser class list only spells? Are there any other spells that are out of whack other than holy sword and bless weapon?

Is this how you would do it?

Any spells that were re-leveled to go onto a "lesser" list are reverted back to the original level.

Paladin list merges with cleric list.

Ranger list merges with druid list.

Bard to sorcerer/wizard list however they may only use Enchantment, Illusion, Alteration, Divination and Abjuration spells

I would have actually preferred the exact opposite of versatile performance: the bard selects X non-perform skills and can use them to perform. For example, a bard could choose to perform using Bluff instead of Perform (acting), Diplomacy instead of Perform (oratory), or Acrobatics instead of Perform (dance). That way, bards are gradually learning to turn any task into a performance instead of arbitrarily getting maxed-out non-performance skills.

This was the first thing that came to my mind when I read versatile performer too.

For the record I like everything else about the bard preview.

DocRoc wrote:

There are, however, feats that allow you to cast or otherwise act while performing, and these are a tremendous and important power boost for Bards.

[That should have been core.]

Hear hear.

So any suggestions for my 4th level bard out of the core PF beta? I would like to be able to wade into battle with the best all while buffing myself and others, provide a little back up healing and a few interesting effects.

I am human, so I took great sword but that is not my main weapon - it is the spiked chain. Feats: combat expertise, improved trip, and exotic weapon. I want to take combat reflexes at 5th. Then go to dragon disciple a 6th. I am not opposed to multiclassing into rogue or fighter or some other class for a level or two also.

That feat that allows you to perform and still cast spells sounds like a winner.

So taking all suggestions.

Nevynxxx wrote:

CMD = 10 + Str Mod + Dex Mod + BAB + Special Size Mod + any bonus that normally adds to AC except Armour, natural armour, shield, and size bonuses.

AKA

Touch AC + BAB + STR + Special Size Mod
if Special Size Mod = -2x normal size mod ("compensating" for Touch AC already including Size Mod), then you can use Touch AC "as is", otherwise (if it = -1x normal) you have to recalculate it from scratch (10 + Dodge Mods + Deflect Mod) ...same result.

Can we get a preview of a dextrous melee type to show off if Weapon Finesse supersedes Dextrous Maneuvers? :-)

So...

I am anticipating the preview for this character as I am actually going to be trying out a bard for the first time. In all of my 3e play experience I have not played one do to their inexcusable weakness. I know they were talking about changing the Monk and Bard significantly from the beta rules. So I look forward to seeing what is in store for my jester (comedy performing bard) character that is going to move into the Dragon Disciple PrC.

Have there been any leaks, I may have missed, that can wet my tongue in the meantime?

What are the formulas for these two?

It does not look like they are the same as in beta when I look at the previews.

I suppose any dramatic changes are not what this revision is about. PF needs to function well with 3.5 rules. There are ways to address those issues without the game becoming too computability jarring. Hopefully one of those avenues was taken or at the least given lip service. These were the fundamental flaws of 3e imo.

Thanks for the info, I eagerly await its release.

I have not been to the site in months. But I had a stake in putting out my ideas for improving the game and what not a while ago.

What was resolved on these issues:
1. Multi-Classing

The +1/2 level thing for class features? Was that discussed or adopted?

2. High Level Play

I know save or suck/die spells were lessened, what about skill, BAB, and save extremes that really show up at higher levels?

Thanks, I am interested.

The BAB sidebar was used to justify the low BAB classes getting a bump up in HP. However the barbarian was just sitting there with a d12 saying look at me. I don't think anyone thinks that the barbarian should be moved to a d10. But if their is going to be a standard rule, rather than writing a whole side bar explaining the exception, white a very small class feature in the barbarian.
PrCs are looking at a similar problem with matching their HD to their BAB. There could be a medium BAB guy with d10 HD, they would be given the class feature.

The barbarian should have a class feature that says it gets to bump up its hit die by one step. This is so that it is not a strange exception to the (BAB == HD).

Feat Requirements
I think these should be relaxed or removed entirely. I think feat chains and, in fact, all feat requirements should be flattened. I don't like looking through books and trying to remember feat requirements and killing character concepts because of a requirement. Feat requirements should not be balanced by requirements. An example: you don't have an INT of 13+, normally you cannot take combat expertise, but why not? You cannot use its effect, so what, you probably wont take it then. Why make it any more complicated than that?

Scaling Feats
It seems that some feats are scaling now and others are not. I can think of several off the top of my head that should probably scale. dodge, weapon focus, weapon specialization, and many of the "improved X" feats. Some feats have already been give scalability in pathfinder, the rest should follow suit.

I won't get into what the numbers should be but what about the concept of raising the person your hitting AC instead of subtracting from your Attacks.

In this way you don't have to, at high level have to alter your chain of iterative attacks. Instead you say, "I give 'em +10 AC" and then make you normal attack rolls.

This would simplify the attack routine quite a lot and generate the same effect.

Thoughts?

Couple of changes to the list below as per the discussion. (It is really too bad you cannot go back and edit previous post on this forum.)

Agility [DEX] jump, tumble, balance, escape artist
Drive [DEX] (new skill)
Might [STR] climb, fly, swim
Ride [DEX]
Sleight of Hand [DEX] feint (from bluff)
Stealth [DEX] hide, move silently

Bluff [CHA] disguise
Diplomacy [CHA] perform oratory
Intimidate [CHA]

Perception [WIS] spot, listen, search
Sense Motive [WIS]

Arms [INT] appraise weapons and armor, craft armor, craft weapons, craft bows
Craft [INT] appraise items and construction, craft items and buildings, knowledge engineering
Device [INT] appraise traps, disable device, open locks, craft traps
Finery [INT] appraise art objects, forgery, craft jewelry, craft art objects
Spellcraft [INT] appraise magic items, concentration, use magic device, craft alchemy

Arcana [INT] knowledge planes
Dungeoneering [INT] survival, knowledge geography
Handle Animal [INT]
Heal [INT]
History [INT] knowledge local, knowledge geography, knowledge nobility
Nature [INT] survival, knowledge geography
Pilot [INT] (new skill) profession sailor
Religion [INT] knowledge planes

Non-ranked skills
Linguistics [none] each rank gives a bonus language
Profession [none] perform, each rank gives a bonus profession

Ok, so here is the final rule on this? Are there any unforeseen consequences of implementing this system?

Light armor
Padded 5 gp +1 5% 10/20 lb.
Leather 10 gp +2 10% 15/30 lb.
Studded leather 25 gp +3 15% 20/40 lb.
Chain shirt 100 gp +4 20% 25/50 lb.

Medium armor
Hide 15 gp +3 20% 25/50 lb.
Scale mail 50 gp +4 25% 30/60 lb.
Chainmail 150 gp +5 30% 40/80 lb.
Breastplate 200 gp +5 25% 30/60 lb.

Heavy armor
Splint mail 200 gp +6 40% 45/90 lb.
Banded mail 250 gp +6 35% 35/70 lb.
Half-plate 600 gp +7 40% 50/100 lb.
Full plate 1,500 gp +8 35% 50/100 lb.

Light Load
Full Speed, Run x4, Max Dex Bonus any, -0 to Attack rolls, Str and Dex based skill checks -0

Medium Load
3/4 Speed, Run x4, Max Dex Bonus 3, -3 to Attack rolls, Str and Dex based skill checks -3

Heavy Load
1/2 Speed, Run x3, Max Dex 1, -6 to Attack rolls, Str and Dex based skill checks -6

Light Armor Proficiency [GENERAL]
Benefit: Use armor without penalty.
Normal: double the effective weight of the light armor. -2 to Attack rolls and Str and Dex based skill checks.

Medium Armor Proficiency [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Light Armor Proficiency
Benefit: Use armor without penalty.
Normal: double the effective weight of the hedium armor. -2 to Attack rolls and Str and Dex based skill checks.

Heavy Armor Proficiency [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Medium Armor Proficiency
Benefit: Use armor without penalty.
Normal: double the effective weight of the heavy armor. -2 to Attack rolls and Str and Dex based skill checks.