I think Jason is right though. Things have become a little too heated on these boards over the last few weeks. I don't know... maybe there's something in the air. I blame Transformer 2.
It's simple D&D is a game with a loyal following and 3.5 was already attacked and left for dead by WoTC. So people were hoping Pathfinder would be a solid replacement and allow the game to continue. Some are getting what they want others are getting overlooked. Those getting overlooked are reacting to it as they have no real other outlet but let others know they are displeased. Is that really shocking?
But hey, let's remember that they tried to be nice and give us previews of the final PRPG, and what happens? people telling them off 'cause they're mad their own houserules did not make it in the final version of the game... I for one really appreciate the previews, and would hate for them to stop or that some kind of threads lockdown would be enacted for a while. Some of you guys just like to push other people's buttons; if the hat fits, you know who you are... and please stop pushing buttons! :)Let's all relax and discuss things with civility, and let's try to remain respectful of one another.
If we are to take Jason's word for it they are as he said not a democracy so what are they? Well they are a bussiness. And like any bussiness what they did as far as beta, previews and the rest was not done to be nice so much as attract attention. They want this game to sell they want the buzz they see an oppertunity to make some money and are going for it, good for them. So they aren't saints, they also aren't devils, they are simply a bussiness.
They are printing their house rules, not building a new game here. I really don't see any reason to debate the changes they are in print already, I lament how they were finalized, I lament they appear tailored to destroy casters, but I will simply ignore any rule I see I do not agree with.
believe nothing,
no matter where you read it
or who has said it, not even if
i have said it, unless it agrees
with your own reason and
your own common sense.
-buddha
That pretty much sums it up, trust no house rule made to 3.5, no matter who defends it or prints it, unless it agrees with your own experinces with 3.5 and your own common sense.
Be careful what you ask for. People wanted more uses per day. This is the implementation that was chose.
That was what I was asking for, and I appreciate the response, which I doubt I would have gotten from most other companies. I still disagree substantively, as there were other, more backwards compatable ways to increase uses per day without redesigning the entire mechanic. This wasn't an either/or proposition, where we had to nerf coasting effects in order to increase flexibility. Actually, from Jason's comments, it sounded more like the nerfing of inspire courage, etc. was an unintended side effect. Now that I see where the idea came from, I can see why that was the case.
In any event, I look forward to seeing the complete final version. Hopefully there will be something to address the issue of how a bard can play an instrument and still fight/cast/etc.
I am genuinely interested in these previews. I like getting to see snippets of new rules here, even if I really don't like some of those rules.
That having been said, why does every one of these preview threads turn into a discussion of how Paizo could have better distilled the will of the people? I personally think that the playtest cycle wasn't quite right for what they wanted to do with it, but at the same time, I also think that this was a unique situation and there were time constraints that, coupled with the uniqueness of the situation, probably mutated this a bit beyond what everyone expected.
As far as the bard goes, I'm really, really intrigued by the versatile performance ability and how it will play out in game session. I'm less thrilled by the sheer number of spells that seemed to have been altered (I'm not so much refuting that any given one of them didn't need some work, only that it seems like a lot to bite off for a project like this, and that I'm likely going to spend the next three years trying to unlearn what I have learned when it comes to these spells).
On the other hand, while I have some quibbles with some of the previews, I'm still really, really anxious to see the final rules and see all of this in perspective instead of in a vacuum, and to actually play with some of these new rules "in the field."
Over all I think I'm happy with the new bard... of course I'll know for sure once the actual book is in my hands but this looks do able for me.
I tend to like or at least sorta like 90%+ of what I've seen and playtested for our groups and play style. I'm certain we will have house rules, but I'm quite pleased with what I've seen.
(Cool seeing you and PDK here too!)
I am genuinely interested in these previews. I like getting to see snippets of new rules here, even if I really don't like some of those rules.
That having been said, why does every one of these preview threads turn into a discussion of how Paizo could have better distilled the will of the people? I personally think that the playtest cycle wasn't quite right for what they wanted to do with it, but at the same time, I also think that this was a unique situation and there were time constraints that, coupled with the uniqueness of the situation, probably mutated this a bit beyond what everyone expected.
As far as the bard goes, I'm really, really intrigued by the versatile performance ability and how it will play out in game session. I'm less thrilled by the sheer number of spells that seemed to have been altered (I'm not so much refuting that any given one of them didn't need some work, only that it seems like a lot to bite off for a project like this, and that I'm likely going to spend the next three years trying to unlearn what I have learned when it comes to these spells).
On the other hand, while I have some quibbles with some of the previews, I'm still really, really anxious to see the final rules and see all of this in perspective instead of in a vacuum, and to actually play with some of these new rules "in the field."
Ninja'd (and more politely than me).
I am sick of the baseless complaints, though. If you want to complain about something, I think you have a duty to do a little more research instead of just getting diarrhea of the fingers.
Yes. I like a lot of the new stuff. I liked the rounds per day mechanic but it would have been great if Inspire courage was great. But its isn't.
Who wants to nuke the bard? YThe attack boost a party can get from a paladin or ranger is much more powerful and these classes are muck more powerful.
Cmon know, the bard concept has never been one of raw power. The bard is good at a lot of different things, but he is not the master of any of them. If you are looking for that class, well.. there are 10 of them to choose from. Will he get nuked first.. probably not, unless the bad guys realize that everyone is getting +3 to hit and damage from the guy in the back, who is also casting haste on the party, greater invis on the rogue, and curing the barbarian. I know its not the same, and I suspect that most folks do, but that is the entire point of the bard. They help win the fight indirectly sometimes.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
After reading about the new Shadowdancer..........same thing here as there. Weak class + tweakning = weak class with some tweakning.
Well The first edition Bard was powerful, was it not?
"the bard concept has never been one of raw power" meaning the bard has always been a weak class when it comes to combat. And you didn't wanna change that?
"They help win the fight indirectly sometimes". Well clerics can do that too and they do it better ( at least the got bull's str on their spelllist). Infact all spellcasting classes with full spell progresion do it better. And they can do damage. Cmon. This game is largely about fights and doing damage.
We have a bard in our party now itstead of a wizard. It's OK.
But good? No. New bard, will it be better. Probably, but it's rather obvious that Extra Performance will be mandatory. So e feat tax.
You could have given them some new spells or if you don't want abuse you could have given them SPA (a sonicball or a cone of sonic. Could have called it Big Bang or shock wave) and/or some more spells and/or some abilities. Someting like Metamagic Mastery.
The way things are now they can't even cast quicken haste. Not even at level 20. And they have to wait until level 16 to cast quicked mirror image.
Thing could have done to make the bard and real PC class and you could have given them collages, bloodlines or/and bard talents but you didn't. Giving the some blow em up spells as SPA would also have fixed some of the issues with the bard and would have prenented some abuse.
Well the bard is the way it is. I just don't get why you didn't make it a force to be reckoned with. It's not like giving the bard (at higher levels) more spells per day or more spells known would make him too powerful since he only have 1 to 6 level spells and none of them are Blast spells. Also the DC won't be as high as the other arcane casters since bards can't boost their main casting attribute as high as wizards or sorcerers.
I guess that's why I add this post to a dead thread. I just don't get it.
Hey I can still play Paladin or Cleric or a charisma rogue.
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Zark, did you play 3.5 bards often? I did, despite the perceived weakness, and let me tell you I could do some pretty ugly things as a weak bard. The party was so strong with the bard around that we on average met challenges with ELs 3 to 4 levels higher than a regular party (especially when most other party members are non-spellcasters who depend on swinging weapons at foes)
Now, with these upgrades... I'm never going to play anything ELSE than a bard (when I don't DM that is...)
I am in agreement with PDK and think the new bard will make a wonderful class to play. I started playing back in 1977 and found out quickly being a magic user who concentrated on buffing the fighter was a very sucessful tactic. So what if I can't cast orb of sonic doom. No matter what damage it does it pales before what the barbarian, fighter, paladin or ranger can do when I buff them.
Doug
It's not like giving the bard (at higher levels) more spells per day or more spells known would make him too powerful since he only have 1 to 6 level spells and none of them are Blast spells.
Well, except that blasting spells suck... if you want to deal in direct damage, buff the barbarian instead. If you want to win fights efficiently, the bard has exactly the kinds of spells he needs (confusion, hold monster, etc.) for all opponents who don't have spectacular Will saves.
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I am in agreement with PDK and think the new bard will make a wonderful class to play. I started playing back in 1977 and found out quickly being a magic user who concentrated on buffing the fighter was a very sucessful tactic. So what if I can't cast orb of sonic doom. No matter what damage it does it pales before what the barbarian, fighter, paladin or ranger can do when I buff them.
Doug
AMEN!
Well, except that blasting spells suck... if you want to deal in direct damage, buff the barbarian instead. If you want to win fights efficiently, the bard has exactly the kinds of spells he needs (confusion, hold monster, etc.) for all opponents who don't have spectacular Will saves.
Damn straight. Big, well-muscled, walking hunks of meat carrying really big weapons they use two weapons to wield are the way to go if you want to introduce someone to the maximount (that is a new word meaning "maximum amount of pain" I just came across by thinking a lot faster than I could write and just skipping ahead a bit. It rocks, and so do I) of injury in a given time (or achieve the desired amount of injury in a minimum of time... as we all know, the maximount in minimum time just doesn't work).
If you are as lost in that sentence as I am right now, here the short version:
Warriors with two-handed weapon are the kings of damage.
At least if you want to concentrate that damage on one guy. Wizards and sorcerers still rule against groups or armies.
And if you already have one or more of those hunks in the party, you can really contribute something as a bard: You make them more likely to hit enemies, and when they hit, they'll do more damage. With the right spells - i.e. haste, something wizards have, too, but they cannot be bothered to cast it with all the Fireball and Viciously Rape Someone's Mind To Death With Your Awesome Magic flying around - you can make them do even more damage than before. A lot.
And you can lay claim to that extra damage. You effectively caused it.
In fact, since you're the one writing and perform all those cool stories and songs about the daring rescues and whatnot, you can lay claim to everything. What really happened doesn't matter. No one hears about that, ever. No one talks about it - well the fighters and wizards do, but by the time they start telling it, they're dead drunk and no one believes - or understands - them.
Hold monster etc? Their DC isn't that good. wizard and socerers got those spells to. If you are in a big party where many characters relly on weapon damage I guess you are right. But in a party of 4 or 5 I still say they are weak. We have a bard in our party now. We well play him with the beta rules until the 13 of august. Then we will convert the party to the final rules. Then we will see If he is good or not.
Hold monster etc? Their DC isn't that good.
And fighters' and big dumb monsters' Will saves are a lot worse.
All parties need a cleric and a wizard or sorcerer. Playtesting has shown me that a bard is exceptionally handy at levels up to at least 10th-11th if you've got a couple of other people in the party who use weapons. So in a party of 5, a bard makes an excellent "fifth wheel." In a party of 4 I'm inclined to agree more with you, because then the bard needs to fill in for the rogue as well, which leaves you without sneak attack capability, which kind of sucks (unless you have a wizard, a cleric, a fighter/rogue, and a bard, which might work pretty well).
It's not like giving the bard (at higher levels) more spells per day or more spells known would make him too powerful since he only have 1 to 6 level spells and none of them are Blast spells.Well, except that blasting spells suck... if you want to deal in direct damage, buff the barbarian instead. If you want to win fights efficiently, the bard has exactly the kinds of spells he needs (confusion, hold monster, etc.) for all opponents who don't have spectacular Will saves.
Levels behind everyone else at lower DCs than everyone else. Plus the DCs suffer even more due to the fact that Bards are still more MAD than any other caster (Pathfinder Druid not withstanding).
EDIT to cover last post:
I still don't agree that fighters are "the suck" at will saves, and most monsters do fine on Will saves too.
It's the Fortitude save spells that were really overpowered.
Stinking Cloud compared to Hold Person or Slow. See also: Pyrotechnics.
Stinking Cloud compared to Hold Person or Slow. See also: Pyrotechnics.
On the flip side... color spray compared to ray of enfeeblement, or hypnotic pattern vs. phantasmal killer.
But, yes, stinking cloud and baleful polymorph were the Fort-save equivalents of the Will-save offenders I'm referring to.And, although houstonderek will attack me for saying this, thank God Pathfinder nerfed glitterdust...
Stinking Cloud compared to Hold Person or Slow. See also: Pyrotechnics.On the flip side... color spray compared to ray of enfeeblement, or hypnotic pattern vs. phantasmal killer.
But, yes, stinking cloud and baleful polymorph were the Fort-save equivalents of the Will-save offenders I'm referring to.
And, although houstonderek will attack me for saying this, thank God Pathfinder nerfed glitterdust...
Of course, I was simply pointing out people tend to focus overly much on the Will Save SODs and SOSs, and forget that there are really powerful Fort and Ref save based SOD and SOS spells too (Web, grease, and forcecage for Ref save examples).
Ray of Enfeeblement doesn't really count in 3.5 since there is no save (I forget how the Beta had it).
Yes Will Save SOD and SOS can cause you to turn sides, but Cloudkill is continual Con damage on a Fort Save throw, and again stinking cloud is multiround multieffect AOE. These tend to get forgotten I think because the Fighter does have a good Fort Save and generally a good CON to so it doesn't seem as big a problem - at first - until one realizes the fortitude SOD's tend to be more powerful and last longer while affecting more people.
*****
However back on topic: I still think the Bard suffers from an over all lack of level equivalent options that are actually threatening to his enemies, or beneficial to his allies.
BUT it looks to me like pathfinder Final is probably going to take care of a lot of this in the way of earlier use and stronger use of the bardic music and expanded use of skills.
However back on topic: I still think the Bard suffers from an over all lack of level equivalent options that are actually threatening to his enemies, or beneficial to his allies.
yes. That's my point.
BUT it looks to me like pathfinder Final is probably going to take care of a lot of this
They fixed some but not all.
in the way of earlier use and stronger use of the bardic music and expanded use of skills.
You can’t kill monsters with skills or music,....until lvl 20.
They still have problems.I mean they can't even cast quicken haste or any quicken spell.......anytime until he is really high level. And that point he will only have one or two “high” level spells. And in comparison to other casters they are not high level spells.
And if he wants to go the weapon rut. He has a MAD problem so no can do....and why would he.
For you who all say the bard is great.....talking is cheap ;-)
Post me two Bards.
A) 15 point buy.
B) 20 point buy.
Give me, stats, feats, spells and tell me how you play him.
Make it a lvl 12 (or lvl 13 or whatever) Bard. Use the Beta (or a mix of the beta and the final if you prefer). No splats books.
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Zark, did you play 3.5 bards often? I did, despite the perceived weakness, and let me tell you I could do some pretty ugly things as a weak bard. The party was so strong with the bard around that we on average met challenges with ELs 3 to 4 levels higher than a regular party (especially when most other party members are non-spellcasters who depend on swinging weapons at foes)
Now, with these upgrades... I'm never going to play anything ELSE than a bard (when I don't DM that is...)
I personally never understood why people called the Bard weak. They're awesome. Not Cleric/Druid/Sorcerer/Wizard awesome, but certainly not the worst deal there is.
Now, with these changes the Bard is hella awesome!
stuffs
I'll post up tonight on that. I'll assume most of the beta feats are still around.
All parties need a cleric and a wizard or sorcerer.
Not necessarily need. They come in quite handy, but it can work without, if you have the right replacements.
In a party of 4 I'm inclined to agree more with you, because then the bard needs to fill in for the rogue as well, which leaves you without sneak attack capability, which kind of sucks (unless you have a wizard, a cleric, a fighter/rogue, and a bard, which might work pretty well).
Sneak attack isn't that important. It's a bit more damage to specific enemies. I think the fighter, helped by the cleric, can do plenty in that regard - especially if they're supported by the bard, who can do some damage by himself and can increase their damage output to boot.
You can’t kill monsters with skills or music,....until lvl 20.
No big deal. Not everything is about killiing monsters. Plus, as I said, the bard can help others kill monsters, and help tremendously.
They still have problems.
I mean they can't even cast quicken haste or any quicken spell.......anytime until he is really high level.
So? He'll use his standard action to cast those spells. And his move action to use bardic music. After that he'll alternate between weapon attacks (with arcane strike for extra damage) and magic to help or hinder, all the while using music on the side.
I'll post up tonight on that. I'll assume most of the beta feats are still around.stuffs
Thanx. I really mean thanx. It will be exciting to read
I have not said this so I say it now..YES THE NEW BARD IS MUCH BETTER THAN THE 3.x !! :-)
(....I just expected more)
stuff
don't add quotes I didn't write...yes I know it was a joke, but don't
;-)
So? He'll use his standard action to cast those spells. And his move action to use bardic music. After that he'll alternate between weapon attacks (with arcane strike for extra damage) and magic to help or hinder, all the while using music on the side.
They still have problems.
I mean they can't even cast quicken haste or any quicken spell.......anytime until he is really high level.
weapon attacks ? They won't do much. Bard = MAD. ..and they don't even get composite longbows.
arcane strike? Is that core? What is it?
I'll post up tonight on that. I'll assume most of the beta feats are still around.stuffs
I'm doing 12th level, 15 point buy - you go ahead with 13th, 20 point buy?
arcane strike? Is that core? What is it?
+1 to damage, +1 per 5 caster levels. Weapon considered magic. Yes, it's core Alpha/Beta Pathfinder.
I've seen PLENTY of parties without a cleric, and even more without a wizard or sorcerer. Those classes are by no means required for the game to work.
I agree. One of my groups rarely takes a Cleric and the other currently has a bard as it's only arcane caster. They enjoy the fact that they can take whatever class they want to play as opposed to creating a group that generally conforms to the standard (cleric, wizard, rogue, druid) type.
I've seen PLENTY of parties without a cleric, and even more without a wizard or sorcerer. Those classes are by no means required for the game to work.
For a 4-person party, that's very true if you run adventures a level or two below the "standard." Trying to run through, say, a level-appropriate Savage Tide path with no full-time arcanist or cleric/druid would be really brutal, though.
I've seen PLENTY of parties without a cleric, and even more without a wizard or sorcerer. Those classes are by no means required for the game to work.For a 4-person party, that's very true if you run adventures a level or two below the "standard." Trying to run through, say, a level-appropriate Savage Tide path with no full-time arcanist or cleric/druid would be really brutal, though.
Kirth:
I'll counter you by saying that I've ran through 99% of the AoW path (which I think is comparable to Savage Tide in challenge) and there were large swaths of it where the party had no cleric, druid, or paladin. They did often have 5 members instead of 4 though. Yeah, it was brutal at times. But definitely do-able.BTW, IMO these adventure paths are hardly "standard" for their suggested levels. Most encounters are 1+ or more CRs above the party, with very few being lower. They're hard even with a cleric!
Large swaths of my home-brew game up through mid-epics had neither a cleric or a wizard, just a bard. The rest were usually a Barb, a psychic warrior, a nutty ineffective multiclass, etc.
Overwhelming offense often gets the job done about as well as magic.
A defense-focused, non-casting group might have a lot of trouble though.
stuffdon't add quotes I didn't write...yes I know it was a joke, but don't
;-)
Huh? I didn't add quotes you didn't write.
weapon attacks ? They won't do much. Bard = MAD. ..and they don't even get composite longbows.
arcane strike? Is that core? What is it?
Why get longbows? They need strength. Ignore that, get a crossbow and invest a couple of feats in it.
Arcane Strike is a feat from PF core. It lets you add damage to your attacks, depending on your arcane caster level. It could as well be called "BARD TAKE THIS AND DO MORE DAMAGE"
Alright here's mine: It isn't fully "Optimized for Pwnage by the Uber L77t!" But I believe I would take it to a table and use it:
Human Bard 13 (20 Pathfinder point buy)
14(18) Str 14 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 15 Cha
HP: 136 (favored class bonus max 1st 1/2+1 HP) BAB: +9/+4 Fort: +11 Ref: +14 Will: +13 AC: 29 (+2 Natural +2 Deflection +7 Armor + 5 Shield +2 Dex +1 Dodge) Touch: 14 Flat Footed: 26 Temporary (+1 Haste, + 3 Combat Expertise)
Feats: Arcane Strike, Toughness, Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Combat Casting, Dodge, Shield Focus, Extra Performance
Skills: Use Magic Device, Stealth, Perception, Spellcraft, Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Perform (dance), Perform (comedy) (Bluff, Intimidate, Fly, Acrobatics as virtual skills from Perform skills) (All Knowledge skills at +8 from Bardic Knowledge)
Spells Per day - Level (Known) DC 12 + spell level Caster level 13
6 Cantrips Known (Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Message, Ghost Sound)
6 - 1st level (Cure Light Wounds, Grease, Remove Fear, Detect Secret Doors, Unseen Servant, Animate Rope)
6 - 2nd level (Mirror Image, Rage, Silence, Tongues, Misdirection)
4 - 3rd level (Dispel Magic, Haste, See Invisibility, Cure Serious Wounds, Blink)
3 - 4th level (Neutralize Poison, Greater Invisibility, Freedom of Movement, Dimension Door)
1 - 5th level (Greater Dispel Magic, Summon Monster V)
Equipment: Staff of Healing, Cloak of Resistance + 4, Amulet of Natural Armor + 2, Ring of Protection + 2, + 3 Chain Shirt, + 3 Mithral Buckler + 2 Longsword, Belt of Giant Strength +4
Class Abilities: Versatile performance, Bardic Performance (36 rounds a day) Inspire Courage +3, Inspire Competence +4, Inspire Greatness, Fascinate, Suggestion, Dirge of Doom, Soothing Performance, Song of Freedom, Discordant Performance, Distraction, Counter Song, Well Versed, Bardic Knowledge, Lore Master, Jack of All Trades
Combat:
Longsword +19/+19/+14 (1d8+12) Power attack: +16/+16/+11 (1d8+18) Two handed Power Attack: +15/+15/+10 (1d8+23)
Another thought would be to drop the shield, buy a +3 long spear and up the armor some more, grab weapon focus with the shield focus feat. This would allow the bard to go over the shoulders of his allies and get more use out of his strength and power attack. His damage isn't great but it is acceptable for a helper.
The spells are mainly focused on helping his allies, and dealing with the stuff that normally is a pain. While he lacks higher level healing spells he can use D. Door to get himself and an ally or two away from the source of damage, giving more time to focus on them with the staff or allow the primary healer (if there is one) to heal them. His Soothing performance takes 4 rounds to do but will heal 3d8 +13 damage which is on par with the channel energy ability at this level (not with the heal spell though which is now available to the cleric).
He can undo most status effects, and boost his allies in combat beyond his performance abilities. I left Cha to rot for the most part because bardic DC's just aren't going to do it for the most part. There are plenty of spells that make good use of his caster level though (Greater Dispel Magic from the Bard leaves the Wizard/Cleric/et al to heave the other spells of 6th + level)
Mirror Image and Blink means he'll be able to survive a bit beyond his AC normally, and his HP isn't bad for his level either.
Now I'm not going to say this bard can out damage the fighter, or out spell the wizard (or cleric) or go toe to toe with a rogue on sneak attack damage (though his skills are good). However he is the guy who will have that healing type spell needed when the cleric is busy with someone else, or who can through a dispel on that cloudkill while the wizard is busy blasting/controlling/summoning or that can get you pumped before you kick in the door. If the rogue needs someone to sneak with this is a good guy to do it, as he can provide very useful magic without necessarily being as vulnerable as a wizard to direct combat. He'll compliment any of the 3 of the "Key 4" without bringing the party down for the lack of the last of the "Key 4".
weapon attacks ? They won't do much. Bard = MAD. ..and they don't even get composite longbows.
arcane strike? Is that core? What is it?
Why get longbows? They need strength. Ignore that, get a crossbow and invest a couple of feats in it.
OK. But it will cost some feats.
Arcane Strike is a feat from PF core. It lets you add damage to your attacks, depending on your arcane caster level. It could as well be called "BARD TAKE THIS AND DO MORE DAMAGE"
OK. I found it. I thought it was a spell at first.
First. - What you can't hit you can't hurt.
Second - Let's talk damage.
At lvl 20 Arcane Strike is +5 to damage, right?
At lvl 20 a rogue will have 10d6 sneak and if the rogue goes TWF...it's more
And a monk will have 2d10 weapon damage...unless he takes Improved natural attack, then it's 4d8. If he also take a potion of enlarge person he will do more damage.
And then we can talk about the other 3/4 classes. The druid and cleric.....well let's not.
stuffdon't add quotes I didn't write...yes I know it was a joke, but don't
;-)
Huh? I didn't add quotes you didn't write.
You posted: !"You can’t kill monsters with skills or music,....until lvl 20."
I didn't writ "can’t". I been hard on jason and the other in this thread. I don't want them to beleive I post stuff like that too. Do you understad?
I didn't write "can’t"
That's just ascii code for some character (looks like the apostraphe (') you used for "can't"). Happens when using a non-US keyboard layout.
Post me two Bards.
A) 15 point buy.
Temina Swallowsong
Female Elf Bard 12Init +6
Senses Lowlight vision (Ex), Perception +16
----------Defense---------------------------
AC 27, Touch 18, FF 21
(+7 Armor, +6 Dex, +2 N. Armor, +2 Defl)
hp 82 (12d8+12+12)
Fort +9, Ref +18, Will +11, +2 Saves vs. Enchantment
Defensive Abilities: Immune: Sleep, well-versed
----------Offense---------------------------
Spd 30
Melee +11 (MW Sawtooth Sabre, 1d8+1/crit 19-20/x2)
Ranged +21/+16 (Longbow *1d8+5/crit 20/x3/range 110', +1d6 fire/cold/elec (magic arrows))
Rapid +19/+19/+14 +21/+16 (Longbow *1d8+5/crit 20/x3/range 110', +1d6 f/c/e)
Rapid/Deadly Aim +16/+16/+11 (Longbow *1d8+11/crit 20/x3/range 110', +1d6 f/c/e)
Inspired/Rapid/Deadly-Aim +19/+19/+14 (Longbow *1d8+14/crit 20/x3/range 110', +1d6 f/c/e)
Hasted/Inspired/Rapid/Deadly-Aim +20/+20/+20/+15 (Longbow *1d8+14/crit 20/x3/range 110', +1d6 f/c/e)
*Manyshot: Double first arrow damage on full attack.
Special Attacks: Dazzling Display (+21), bardic performance (27 rounds/day), countersong, distraction, dirge of doom, fascinate (DC 19), inspire competence +4, inspire courage +3, inspire greatness, Song of freedom, soothing performance, suggestion (DC 19).
Spells Known (CL 12th):
4th (3/day)—dimension door, greater invisibility, rainbow pattern (DC 17), Shout (DC 17)
3rd (5/day)—charm monster (DC 16), cure serious wounds, haste, phantom steed
2nd (6/day)—blur, glitterdust (DC 15), minor image (DC 15), silence (DC 15), sound burst (DC 15)
1st (6/day)—charm person (DC 14), cure light wounds, disguise self, feather fall, hideous laughter (DC 14), lesser confusion (DC 14)
0 (at will)—detect magic, ghost sound (DC 13), know direction, light, read magic, summon instrument
--------------------------------------------
STATISTICS
Str 10(12), Dex 20(22) Con 11(13), Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 14(16)
Base Atk +9; Combat Maneuver Bonus +10; Combat Maneuver Defense 28;
Feats Dazzling Display, Deadly Aim, Manyshot, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (Longbow)
Skills mod (ranks)
Acrobatics +18 (versatile performance), Bluff +18 (vp), *Diplomacy +18 (vp), Fly +18 (vp), Intimidate +18 (vp), Knowledge (History) +23 (12r), Knowledge (All others) +12 (1r+BKnw), Perception +16 (12r), Perform (Comedy) +18 (12r), Perform (Dance) +18 (12r), Perform (Oratory) +18 (12r), Spellcraft +17 (12r), Stealth +21 (12r), Use Magic Device +9 (3r).
SQ: versatile performance
Languages Common, Elven, Gnome, Giant
*Assumption: Perform(Oratory) grants Diplomacy through versatile performance. Will/should grant two
skills, but are unknown at this point. Also assumption of 3rd performance choice by 12th level
(could be 2nd and every 6th after - anything faster and would have it).
Weapons MW Sawtooth Sabre (2 lb), +3 Composite Longbow (Str 12), 50 magic arrows (see below)
Goods Coin: 100 pp , 100 gp; Entertainer's Outfit (2 lb); Silk rope (50', 5 lb)
XP: 145,000/210,000
Expenditures:
Headband of Alluring Charisma +2 - 4000
Belt of Physical Perfection +2 - 16000
+3 Composite Longbow - 18500
+1, Flaming Arrow x20 - 3200
+1, Frost Arrow x10 - 1600
+1, Shocking Arrow x20 - 3200
Cloak of Resistance +4 - 9000
Ring of Protection +2 - 8000
Greater Bracers of Archery - 25000
Amulet of Natural Armor +2 - 8000
Mithril Shirt +4 = 10100
MW Sawtooth Sabre - 300
=106,900 out of 108,000
Admission: I totally ripped Lem's spell list, and added some extras. I'd pick a *lot* fewer save DC spells given Temina's lower Charisma.
How to play:
Round 1: Haste or Greater Invisibility or Dazzling Display (+21), Sing inspire courage (or possibly Heroics)
Round 2: Rapid Manyshot
Round 3: If hit well, Deadly Aim/Rapid; if bad try regular; if okay but DR switch to Deadly Aim
Round 4: You're a bard - you really should have come up with an ingenious plan by now.
Nice job Abraham - our bards are in ways very similar, and other ways very very different :) (Notably attack bonus is very close).
You posted: !"You can’t kill monsters with skills or music,....until lvl 20."
I didn't writ "can’t". I been hard on jason and the other in this thread. I don't want them to beleive I post stuff like that too. Do you understad?
It's a formatting error. The boards have a problem with special characters. Chill, Zark.
Nice job Abraham - our bards are in ways very similar, and other ways very very different :) (Notably attack bonus is very close).
Yeah I had considered doing a ranged bard too, however I thought a melee bard would be in a better position to support his team... leave the sulking on the back lines to the wizard! ;D
On further review I probably would go with a reach weapon however... maybe that scorpion sting whip thing from LoF, though in that case I would probably drop some cash on making it vicious and merciful.
...though I would probably drop some cash on making it vicious and merciful.
Vicious *and* Merciful.. huh. Do you take the vicious backlash as nonlethal?
It's a formatting error. The boards have a problem with special characters. Chill, Zark.You posted: !"You can’t kill monsters with skills or music,....until lvl 20."
I didn't writ "can’t". I been hard on jason and the other in this thread. I don't want them to beleive I post stuff like that too. Do you understad?
ah. Cool :-)
Thank you Majuba and Abraham spalding.
I will read your posts more thoroughly later and answer you in the weekend since I'm not well at the moment.
One thing strikes mw though. You both made a low charisma Bard that focus on weapon damage. And the Bard main thing are their songs...and some say spells like charmn monster.
So I'm not sure the bardic stuff really is that good.
But great thanks for both your help and the time and effort you both given this.
I WILL BE BACK!
.....If I need help after having read the final I will start a thread and ask for some help.
Thank you Majuba and Abraham spalding.
I will read your posts more thoroughly later and answer you in the weekend since I'm not well at the moment.
One thing strikes mw though. You both made a low charisma Bard that focus on weapon damage. And the Bard main thing are their songs...and some say spells like charmn monster.
So I'm not sure the bardic stuff really is that good.
But great thanks for both your help and the time and effort you both given this.
I WILL BE BACK!.....If I need help after having read the final I will start a thread and ask for some help.
I see the bard (in my case) as being a primary buffer and trouble shooter for the party he is in. I spent my 'resources' accordingly. Feats went to combat, Skills to being batman, and spells to troubleshoot/clear problems/magic.
The bardic music generally makes you better. The fascinate ability requires a lack of combat and hence anything based on it has the same problem. You can't suggest with your music unless you fascinate first, and if combat is going on those aren't choices. Dirge of Doom doesn't allow a save throw and goes straight to shaken so it could be an excellent control option. The spells could be nice, but due to their low spell level (generally) and the bards MAD-ness it is easier to look to use their spell slots more effectively else were.
NOW a bard could beef up the CHA and go for a more controller route, however there are all the pitfalls of the Enchanter specialist to avoid, and the lack of DC still hurts. The bardic musics with save throws are few, but in their cases at least they will be the highest they can be -- 1/2 your class level is equal with the highest level spells a wizard will be able to cast.
All in all it's a question of what you want out of your bard. They are generalists and as such are harder to "build/use" than other classes because their role is not well defined and requires thought to insure you remain effective in the areas you choose to focus in. That has become easier in pathfinder because the areas you don't focus in are still going to be strong. In 3.5 you had to spend extra resources in everything just to be 'decent' at those areas, in pathfinder you'll generally be 'decent' by default and can move up to 'strong' by focusing on that area.
How strong depends on how much you focus of course, and how much you spend into it.
...though I would probably drop some cash on making it vicious and merciful.Vicious *and* Merciful.. huh. Do you take the vicious backlash as nonlethal?
I would say yes, however I would accept no as well if told so by a DM. Other really good choices would be holy and axiomatic or anarchic.
If you really want to give the DM bug eyes:
Scorpion Whip + "X" Vicious, Merciful
Cleave, Great Cleave (pathfinder versions), Arcane Strike
On a level 13 Bard you could attack everyone within 15 feet, dealing 1d4+3d6+6+"X" damage each, if you don't power attack. Go Large for that little extra ;D
If you really want to give the DM bug eyes:
Scorpion Whip + "X" Vicious, Merciful
Cleave, Great Cleave (pathfinder versions), Arcane StrikeOn a level 13 Bard you could attack everyone within 15 feet, dealing 1d4+3d6+6+"X" damage each, if you don't power attack. Go Large for that little extra ;D
Everyone that is standing next to each other - Pathfinder Cleave is limited to targets adjacent to each other.
Get better soon Zark! - I think we both made bards that can deal good damage to show it's quite possible. That and they still do great support work (since that doesn't require a high charisma in any way).
Hello again. Thanx Majuba and Abraham spalding for your suggestions. I read some stuff by Treantmonklvl20 from another thread during the beta test. He too thinks you should not boost the charisma.
I added an interresting conversation betwen him and Black Tom from that tread, see spoiler. His 10 level bard was build this way:
Starting/ending (after 2 stat increases) stats (before magic items)
STR: 16/18 (5 pts)
Dex: 14 (5 pts)
Con: 14 (5 pts)
Int: 13 (3 pts)
Wis: 7 (-4 pts)
Cha: 14 (5 pts)
Treantmonklvl20 had this to say:
The important thing is to remember you are not a spellcaster, you are a melee/archery character - and your feats should reflect that.
So I guess you are correct. I should not go charsima I should go dex or str. But I fear that at higher levels he will have problems anyway.
One of the problems is his low dex/str since "what you can't hit, you can't hurt".
He won't have as high dex as the rogue or as much str as a shifted druid
On the other hand perhaps he have a greater chanse of hitting than the monk. Also the spells and song at high levels won't be as good as the are at level 12. Will shall see when the final comes.
three questions: ....edit: four questions (Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition):
A) isn't stuff like rainbow pattern, Shout, charm monster, sound burst i bit problematic with the low DC?
b) Why pick phantom steed. Treantmonklvl20 did too? What's it good for?
C) Any thoughts on why the h@ck the bard had (and possibly still have) see invisibility as a 3 level spell?
D) What is Sawtooth Sabre?
The biggest mistake I see with Bard builds is the effort to make them into a crappy Sorcerer by maxing out CHA and focusing on spellcasting. Bard's can cast spells - but they will just never be good enough to replace a full caster. They get too few spells and at too low levels to make this their primary purpose.
The Bard works much better as a hybrid. Kind of a Duskblade who focuses more on buffing. The toughest Bard builds usually are melee or archery in nature - and focus largely on Swift/Immediate action spells/songs to beef up themselves and their allies. It is a combination that works very nicely - and only requires a CHA of 16 to work to full potential.
I think if the Bard is tried out this way - there will be less concern on beefing it up to it's counterparts.
Would you care to elaborate on that? I for one never have gotten the hang of the bard, but what you're saying makes a lot of sense and accords with the reports I've heard about bards that were playable. But I'd like to see an example build.
Sure. OK - let's assume a 10th level campaign - using Pathfinder Beta and backwards compatability with 3.5 material (so 3.5 stuff not specifically replaced by Pathfinder stuff is still OK).This is just a quick build - nothing pre-prepared, so it may not be perfectly optimized - but should get the idea across. The choices I've made here are very flexible - but I'm just presenting one example...
I'm assuming a 20 point buy for attributes (using Pathfinder point buy system) - the attribute priorities remain similar regardless of points.
MELEE BARD:
Race: Human(Bard preferred bonus, +2 to STR)
Starting/ending (after 2 stat increases) stats (before magic items)
STR: 16/18 (5 pts)
Dex: 14 (5 pts)
Con: 14 (5 pts)
Int: 13 (3 pts)
Wis: 7 (-4 pts)
Cha: 14 (5 pts)By level 10 I would thing a few +2 stat items is perfectly reasonable - CHA and STR for sure.
Spells Known list:
1: Stay the Hand (PHB II), Swift Invisibility (SpC), Inspirational Boost (SpC), Insidious Rhythm (SpC), Swift Expedtious Retreat (SpC)
2: Bladeweave (SPC), Swift Fly (SPC), Grace (SPC), Opportune Dodge (CScoundrel), Stretch Weapon (PHBII)
3:Halt (PHB II), Hesitate (PHB II), Haste (Beta), Displacement (Beta)
4: Mirror Image (Greater) (PHB II), War Cry (C Adv)Feats: Battle Caster, Medium armor proficiency, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Lingering Song
How it works:
Again, this is a 10 minute build - some tweaking would do it good - however - this is how it works:
Out of Combat: This Bard will have all the out of combat ability you would expect from a Bard. As a Human with a +1 Int bonus - that's 8 skills per level - plus Bardic Knowledge. Furthermore - you have full use of Bardic Performance abilities for lots of enchantment, buffing, etc.
Skills: Naturally Perform must be maxed. Use magic device is fantastic. I like at least one level of every knowledge (for maximum Bardic Knowledge use), otherwise - have fun. Stealth, Perception, Diplomacy etc - all good choices.
In Combat: This Bard is able to front line very well;
HP: With the D8, +1 Favored Class Bonus and +2 Con bonus, the Bard will have HP comparable to a Cleric or Druid of equal level. Perfectly adequite for front line work. Putting the +1 favored class bonus into skills is perfectly fine as well - your HP will still be decent.
AC: With the ability to wear medium armor (Mithral full plate?) and a decent Dex score - his AC won't be stellar, but should be decent.
Combat Manouvers: With Whip proficiency, Improved Trip, and a high strength score - this will be a good tripper, contolling the battlefield for the other front liners.
Melee: If tripping isn't appropriate - this Bard can draw his sword instead and hack effectively. With a STR score of 20 (with a str +2 item) at 10th level (and 16 right at level 1), and medium BAB - you can expect a +3 to hit/damage right at level 1.
Buffing: Naturally - the Bard will still be inspiring courage in battle - a nice bonus for everyone (including himself). With lingering song - he can inspire courage on round 1, then enter melee on round 2.
Spellcasting: There are only 2 spells on this Bard's list that require a standard action to cast (Haste and Displacement - for those epic battles). The rest all require a swift or immediate action. Let's look at an example of how this would work.
Round 1: Bard Inspires courage
Round 2: Bard Hacks the enemy - casts swift invisibility as a swift action and moves. Monster hacks futuliy at empty square.
Round 3: Bard is revealed - hacks enemy, casts swift invisibility and moves. Monster howls in frusturation. Monster is forced to ready an action.
Round 4: Bard backs up, casts stretch weapon and attacks from range. Monster loses readied action as Bard is out of reach. Monster roars in anger.
Round 5: Bard casts swift fly, moves up to ledge, and draws whip...You get the idea.
The thing about the Bard is that spellcasting just is not strong enough to be your main option. Compared to a Sorcerer (or even worse, a Beguiler), the Bard spellcasting simply does not stack up.
However, the Bard does get better HP, some armor options, and a medium BAB. If their spellcasting is used to complement this - then the Bard makes a pretty decent melee class. In addition - they make all the other meleers better.
If you aren't a whip fan, I would recommend dropping the trip feat tree and pick up some extra knowledges and Knowledge devotion (CC). I think the new Bardic Knowledge would work very nicely for some extra damage in combat.
The real key of any melee Bard or archer Bard build is your spells. You need to focus on spells that are quick to cast (though later on a rod of quicken spell can help with standard action spells) and improve your ability in combat. I like to focus on manouverability and versatility. Then you fill a niche that a fighter can't. (and you do it better than the Monk)
With a 16 CHA, you have full access to all your spells, and that's all you need (I recommend 14 at level 1 + Magic items). Then your attribute focus is on your Physical Stats. You will end up with stats just as well suited for combat as a Ranger for example - probably superior to a Paladin (since you can dump wisdom).
The feats really don't matter - take whatever you like for combat. I like the Dodge, Mobility, Spring attack tree, though Weapon Focus is just fine if you prefer. The important thing is to remember you are not a spellcaster, you are a melee/archery character - and your feats should reflect that.
Thanks for taking the trouble. But I can't help noticing that almost none of the spells you've chosen is core. That seems to point to a weakness in the spell lists in the RAW at least.
I did pick primarily Swift/Immediate action spells - which naturally are not core (since Swift/Immediate actions themselves are not core).Naturally - with any character that uses spells - the fewer sourcebooks available - the less the power.
If it was Core-only - You can't escape standard action casting - I would focus more on buffing/no save spells so again - the 16 CHA works. Top priority to Lesser Quicken Rod!
The Spell list for such a Bard would look more like:
1: Silent Image, Expeditious retreat, Grease, Summon Monster I, Cure Light Wounds
2: Alter Self, Blur, Heroism, Invisibility, Mirror Image
3: Haste, Displacement, Phantom Steed, Blink
4: Invisibility (greater), Dimension door
Treantmonklvl20 - He too thinks you should not boost the charisma.
I wouldn't want to say you *shouldn't* boost Charisma - especially with all the new offensive bardic performances based on it. But you have plenty of options of other things to do, and you certainly wouldn't usually boost it like a sorcerer. If you don't make a specific melee/ranged bard, I *would* put almost every stat boost in it, and focus item boosting items on it usually.
A Charisma focusing Bard will have decent spells, and also have really good effects with his performances - combining those is what would make that type of character powerful. For example, combine a standard action "Slow" spell, with a move action Discordant Performance at 8th-level/22-Cha to get a DC 19 and 20 will saves to avoid being slowed and confused. This will probably devastate any group of soldiers, giants, etc.I should go dex or str. But I fear that at higher levels he will have problems anyway. One of the problems is his low dex/str since "what you can't hit, you can't hurt".
Well the examples we have here have 20 Str, or 22 Dex at mid level - not quite a focused fighter, but as good as many.
Here's the thing - Medium BAB + Inspire Courage = Full BAB + damage. So as a "fighter-type" a bard is kinda assumed to have Inspire Courage up. With that, they can hit just about as well as a fighter (in a party that doesn't have a bard).
three questions: ....edit: four questions (Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition):
A) isn't stuff like rainbow pattern, Shout, charm monster, sound burst i bit problematic with the low DC?
b) Why pick phantom steed. Treantmonklvl20 did too? What's it good for?
C) Any thoughts on why the h@ck the bard had (and possibly still have) see invisibility as a 3 level spell?
D) What is Sawtooth Sabre?
A) Yes, charm monster is an iffy choice (I just didn't change it from Lem's). The rest are area of effect, and so a lower DC (as long as not used vs. very high DCs) still has some effect + Shout is save for half, and one of the few Fort saves a bard has (*GREAT* vs. mages).
B) Phantom Steed = Bard Teleport - They move like the wind (literally, they fly at 240' by 12th level). And the bard can make one for everyone.C) It was moved in 3.5 from 2nd to 3rd. Possibly it was too good and almost got removed?
D) Sawtooth Sabre is from Curse of the Crimson Throne player's guide. It's just a fancy longsword (that if you take exotic proficiency with, is considered a light weapon). Just for show.
stuff
Thank you for the help and feedback. I always wanted to play a bard but never got the hang of it. Your and Abraham spaldings help has been great. The advice from KaeYoss was also nice.
As a solo class and roleplaying class the bard and the paladin are probably the best classes in the game.At least I hope that is true.
B) Phantom Steed = Bard Teleport - They move like the wind (literally, they fly at 240' by 12th level). And the bard can make one for everyone.
C) It was moved in 3.5 from 2nd to 3rd. Possibly it was too good and almost got removed?
b) OK. Thanks for the info
c) Well Wizards and sorcerers have it as a level 2 spell and they can use Permanency and then have it always on. That is really good. Also make it a level 3 spell will only mean a bard will get a 'wizard wand' ...but let's wait for the final.again thanks.
Glad to help. The thing to remember with bards is to paint a picture, but do it with a wide brush. You want to know what you are going after, but you need to use your options to give yourself as many ways to get there as possible. The bard has magic, and some great spell choices (not all of his spells are though of course) so don't fight it trying to out DC a wizard, go with what works for the bard naturally. His caster level is always going to be the same as a wizard so use spells that rely on caster level instead of DC. The bard will have a better attack than a wizard, and can boost that with his music, so buffing spells are nice for him. Just one or two and he's as good as the wizard after 5. A few utility spells (like see invisibility) can help the bard make the non caster's lives easier especially since any other caster in the group is probably going to be doing things to make life measirable for the enemy instead of helping his friends. Armor and some decent planing means the bard can take a hit or two.
We leveled up our NPC bard to level 7 yesterday and noticed
A) Bards lack some buff and utility spells such as mage armor, bull's strength, Resist Energy, fly, Flame Arrow, etc.
B) there are no specific bard feats in the beta, such as lingering song, etra perform, extra spell or boost to songs.
C) Problems with rods and bards. Can a bard use quicken rod and use shiled and weapon?
D) there are no clear rules on how wands are used.
So some questions?
A) Are there any more spells on the new bards spell list?
B) Are there any new bard feats (exept the one in the preview)?
C) Edit: Can a bard use quicken rod and use weapon? rod is use activated isn't it? So you have to hold it in your hand. Hard when you use shield + weapon or bow. Same problem goes for cleric and druid.
D) Wand: Is it created with only one energy type or can you use any energy type when you activate it?
DM/GM:s call yesterday:
- Scroll you can choose any type
- wand you can't.
Is this clear inte the final?
Same problem with wand of summon monster. Is it one monster or can you choose anyone on the list?
OK:
A) Add any spells you want from the other books. However Bards can wear armor so typically lack the armoring spells.
B) Well Arcane strike is usually considered a bard feat, but as far as we have seen in the preview and from the beta no, there are no other extra bardic feats yet.
C) A bard is proficient with shields, but they still affect his ASF (odd but it's there). If he is using a buckler or light shield he could hold the rod in one hand and the weapon in the other allowing him to use both in one round. Anyone can use any rod unless the rod states specifically otherwise (a paladin can use a rod of quickening too).
D) Not sure what you mean. Scrolls are either divine or arcane, the bard uses arcane scrolls, and has to have the spell on his spell list to use the scroll without a UMD check. Wands are not arcane or divine. Anyone with the spell that is in the wand on their spell list (even if they can't cast spells yet such as a first level paladin) can use that wand, no matter who made it. example Bard picks up a wand of cure light wounds uses it on the fighter, then passes it to the cleric who uses it on the barbarian. The cleric then passes the wand to a 2nd level ranger who uses it on himself. The Ranger gives the wand to a paladin that uses it on a commoner, and the paladin gives the wand to a wizard that just sits there and looks at the stick he can't use.
Staves work the same way. Only scrolls are arcane or divine, anything else can generally be used by anyone with that spell on their list.
When casting a spell from an item unless the item specifically states what it summons the user of the item makes all decisions when the item is used.
In the case of your wand of summon monster, unless it states that it is a wand of summon celestial monkey, you can choose any of the creatures on the correct summon monster list.