Multiclassing
For years I've been using "spellcasting ability = class level + 1/2 of all other class levels (up to your class level)". KaeYos mentioned the same basic mechanic earlier. So a wizard 3/rogue 10 would have the spellcasting ability of a 6th level wizard.
Without Mystic Theurge style band-aids, multiclass spellcasting simply doesn't work. PCs fall too far behind in the power curve. The above mechanic actually maps very well to what the Mystic Theurge style band-aids do anyway.
The math is solid, it is simple and straightforward, it scales very well across all 20 levels or even across many classes, and most importantly - years of playtesting this in my campaigns show that it works very, very well for us at least.
It works so well in fact that we are experimenting with applying it to all class abilities, and not just spellcasting. I could have been convinced of that from the start, but my group is very conservative with house rules. Multiclass spellcasting was so obviously weak that they were willing to introduce the above multiclass mechanic as our first house rule. They have become convinced enough that expanding it out to all class abilities is helpful without being so useful that everyone will want to multiclass.
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Great thread!
PLEASE give us actual rules (even if only in a sidebar) for playing a Ranger (and Paladin, or that matter) that DON'T cast spells! There have been some great alternative class abilities suggested elsewhere on these boards that could be used.
Please allow us a way to play a Ranger that does not cast spells.
By the way ... Thanks for a GREAT Beta Jason and Paizo crew ... I can't wait to see the final book!
There are so many good comments and great suggestions already. Mine is not that original or clever or earthshaking, but I have suggested it many times (and it really is first among the tiny handful of things I would think about changing), so to be consistent:
Add the healing domain to the list of available cleric domains the druid can select when choosing the domain option of Nature's Bond.
Thanks!
The single most useful thing in the entire D&D 3.5 PHB is the checklist on page 158 that tells you exactly what steps to take, in what order, to update your character sheet when your character gains a level. I would like to see a similar checklist in the PRPG book.
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First, thanks for the opportunity to comment.
Favored Classes Mechanic
The current bonus hp/skill point is too good to pass up, as the reward grows as levels increase.
Be a half-orc fighter at first level - miss out on a hp or skill point. Not much to pass on to be different.
Never take a barbarian or cleric level thereafter - miss out on 20 hps or 20 skill points or combination thereof. Big loss just to not be a stereotype.
Either ditch the mechanic entirely, or make it a small one-time static bonus tied to the race's favored classes.
For example: Elf Favored class: Wizard or Ranger. Elves with wizard levels gain a +2 to Spellcraft checks. Elves with Ranger levels gain a +2 on Survival checks.
A list of bonuses could even be created based on favored classes.
Favored Class Bonus
Bard : Ranks in perform count for two types (sing and dance)
Barbarian : Extra Rage Pt/Round (whatever final mechanic is)
Cleric : +2 on Knowledge Religion
Druid : +2 on Knowledge Nature
Fighter : Bonus skill point that can be spent on a Fighter skill
Monk : +2 on Acrobatics
Paladin : Heal extra 2 pts with lay on hands
Ranger : +2 on Survival
Rogue : +2 on Disable Device
Sorcerer : extra 0 level spell
Wizard : +2 on Spellcraft
Just some food for thought.
There's a lot of things I'd just houserule that are simple fixes for my style of game, so my "one thing" is a bit more complex. The one thing I asked about numerous times and never got an answer for: why oh why did the domains change so much?
My one change would be to cleric domains. With channel energy shifting the healing burden away from spells, why don't we make domains back into a spell list but instead of being a choose-one-bonus-spell we make it so that when spontaneously converting spells you choose a domain spell instead of cure/inflict (note: this is not an original idea of mine, it was posted a while ago and I don't remember who said it). Add in a scaling domain ability and a 20th level capstone of badassery and there you go.
Thanks for the opportunity to comment Jason. This is a tough decision, since we can only chose one thing to change although my changes would run the gamut from magic item availability to removing magical abilities of the classes and so on.
Since it can be only one change, however, I will chose power creep. Please depower the characters back to their 3.5E level or at least closer to it. If that is too broad and I need to identify only an instance of power creep... grrr I have a hard time chosing between removing the hit point boosts and depowering channel energy - I guess I will go with the need to depower channel energy. I think that is specific enough - if you wish I can also comment on how I would do that, but I have done that several times in the past already.
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*Lifts up head for very first post*
Honestly, I would bring back the save or die spells. I have played numerous characters (including fighter-types and wizardly-types)starting from 1st level and playing them through 20th level. In my experience (with some very tough DMs and adventures)at a certain point High Level play becomes much less dangerous. I don't like to cake-walk through things and I think that having the chance that someone could die at any moment keeps part of that challenge. Having that 'on-the-edge-of-your seat' type of feeling adds a lot to combats, imo.
I really dislike the straight damage from ALL spells as it makes them less unique and interesting - downright boring. It also doesn't really lessen the chance of character death except for those characters that have tons of hit points. In many ways, removing save or dies also lessens spell utility.
I have never understood people's hatred of failing a saving throw - even one that will kill you. Death is and always has been a part of the game and if you lessen the likelihood of death, I think it takes away from the game.
Thanks!
-Toni
add craft undead feat chain
Again, thank you for asking!
I would suggest more control of what should or should not stack, be it multi-class progression (BAB, Saves, Caster level) and/or cutting back the number of bonus types.
Can’t wait to see the final products, I’m confident it will become our game of choice!
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If there was one thing I would change it would be that metamagic given from sources that don't require actual level adjustment (i.e. sudden feats, universalist school, metamagic rods etc.) were not allowed to exceed what the caster himself could cast.
For example if the highest level spell you could cast was a 5th level spell, then you couldn't use sudden maximize to metamagic a fireball because maximize normally adds 4 levels to the spell, making maximized fireball a 8th level spell.
I'm tired of seeing casters using metamagic that doesn't affect the level of the spell being used on the highest level spells the character can cast because it gets around the normal balance of metamagic.
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Here goes mine:
All in all, Paizo's Editorial pit only has a dozen pair of eyes to work with. Given the aggressive schedule, typos, little mistakes and the like are bound to creep into the final FP RPG rulebook.
My suggestion would be: once the semi-final version of the rulebook (with layout and all) is ready, but before sending it to the printer, you could invite a selected number of playtesters (that have proven good at this in the past -- i.e. not me) to review the final thing. They would have to sign a NDA of course, but that would put a great finishing touch to this awesome playtest initiative.
Otherwise, as others have said: great job Jason !!!
:)
Healing is still a problem in general in the game, the priest now have tons of healing(perhaps to much)but thats fine.
i would like there to be other options for healers,
so my 1 comment will have to be on the DRUID class.
i think three should be an option to kind of specilalise as a druid. as either a healer, spellcaster(more mage like) or shapechanger. where u in order to gain one u give up some power in the other branches.
as a surgestion perhaps healer druids could gain a power like channel energy, some lifeforce burst that grandet fast healering or somthing for a time?
(have playtested using rise of the runelords with a party of 5 players, me as the dm. but the problem still seems to be with who is stuck with the healer)
Expand fighter action options: in combat may trade an iterative attack for a specific action (ex. addtional 5 ft step)
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I have about 4 "BIGGIES" that I would change - the low-hanging fruit of little things to be changed can easily be done via house-ruling. Limiting my "big 4" to just one request was hard.
That being said - if I could dictate one change and one change only - it would be to allow full-attacks to be made as part of movement.
My suggestion to keep things in balance would be to limit attackers to only 1 iterative attack. If you increase the amount of damage each attack can do based on BAB, (what I've been playtesting with success is 2 points of additional damage per BAB over 10 - to all successful attacks. i.e. BAB 14 gets two attacks a round - can be done with a full move, and does +8 damage to each successful hit with those two attacks - essentially you're replacing the possibilty of doing additional damage with additional iterative attacks for a (smaller) always applied damage boost making the two attacks you do get actually do more damage. Combine that with being allowed to move your normal move makes combat more fun, faster (due to less dice rolling for a bunch of extra attacks), more action packed (since people aren't deciding to say in one spot for fear of losing the "full-attack" option), makes melee combatants more on par with spellcasters (who can already do a full move and cast their one spell for the round).
Robert
PS - as an aside note: I want to thank jason and staff for giving us (the heart and soul of D&D gamers) a true voice in the design of the next great edition of the game. It has been wonderful so far - and we don't even have the actual RPG product out yet!
There are a lot of excellent ideas posted so far as people's "one thing". As many have stated, it is quite difficult to choose just one thing that I would like addressed.
So, with little preamble, I would like changes to iterative attacks after moving. Something along the lines of the following would be great.
up to a 5ft step ------ all iterative attacks
up to half-move ------ one less attack per weapon, minimum 1 attack per weapon
up to full-move ------- two less attacks per weapon, minimum 1 attack per weapon
greater than full-
move (i.e. charge) --- only one attack
If I could change exactly one thing, and nothing else (and I want that thing to be something that might actually change):
I would make Rogue trapfinding work exactly like Ranger tracking. Everyone can do it, regardless of class as long as they have the correct skill. Rogues get a bonus to Perception checks to detect traps equal to one half their Rogue level.
And Jason - Thanks!
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Publish some guidelines for character leveling without using experience points. Maybe a similar method to what is being used in Pathfinder Society.
Many GMs currently do this anyway, eg not calculating/awarding experience points per encounter, but leveling characters up at appropriate points in an adventure path.
The experience point chart from the PHB is closed content anyway, so why not come up with some innovative methods of awarding experience or leveling characters, rather than simply reprinting the WotC's experience chart but changing the numbers? Similar to how there are wildly different methods for ability score generating, including using playing cards instead of dice, you don't have to stick with the traditional method if you can find a simpler method that works.
The thing that intimidates inexperienced GMs more than anything is all the rules and numbers they have to get their heads around. Removing experience point calculations would greatly simplify between game preparation and might encourage more players to give GMing a try.
Ok, here is my idea:
Eliminate ability enhancement items. All of them. In my opinion they are what unbalances high level play the most. They also preclude most players from filling those spots with interesting magic items. Instead increase the rate of ability point boosts for level-ups. Even extra points won't equal a +6 to all stats.
I have just started a level 20 playtest(thread with thoughts to be posted soon), and the first thing all the players bought was a +6 belt(all three physical scores) or a +6 headband(all three mental scores) or both. These were bought in most cases before any other items regardless of class.
P.S. THANK YOU PAIZO! And thanks to you Jason, and everybody there. This whole project has been nothing but a ray of hope when the uncertainty following the 4th edition announcement was made. As you can see from my tag, I intend to be sticking around for awhile. Also, I would like to disagree with James. he mentioned hoping the beta books would all disappear when the hardcover is released. I disagree, mine will always have a place of honor with my game books.
I would change both "AOO-avoiders", Acrobatics & Spellcraft, to the same system.
I would prefer DC 15 + 2 per opponent threatening (+ spell level). But the same system, and a simple one.
The added option for a Wildshaping Druid to simply take a larger form of a regular animal. What I am saying is to make the wildshape ability a little more "customizable" for the druid rather than just say it is identical to the "such and such" polymorph spell. For example lets say I want to roleplay a druid who worships...foxes. I think that it would be cool if instead of just saying they can turn in a Huge or Tiny animal just like Beast Form III it gave an option that druids can have the ability to also become a huge or tiny form of an 'animal' that normally isn't of that size, and they can use the chart for changes in monster size to modify the creatures speed, str, dex, con. They could only use this variant size with regular animals, not magical beasts.
The current chart in the MM "Advancing Monsters" chapter goes something like:
Small to Medium +4 Str -2 Dex +2 Con +0 Nat Armor -1 AC
Medium to Large +8 Str -2 Dex +4 Con +2 Nat Armor -1 AC
Large to Huge +8 Str -2 Dex +4 Con +3 Nat Armor -1 AC
etc., etc.
It would also be nice if Speed Increases for each size bump came into affect as well so that the normal animals scaled well with the other options out there. This way a player can be part of a Bear Tribe or something and not gimp themselves when they are a level 16 druid changing into a brown bear instead of a gray render, but rather become a Huge Brown Bear, which would be pretty fun.
Thanks again Jason!
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Make Metamagic fun and interesting by eliminating the full round casting time for spontaneous spells with metamagic. Classes that get some form of this could get a few bonus levels a day. Also making the metamagic feats work as swift action mods (without level adjustment) a few times a day, in addition to being able to be used ahead of time in their current form.
Thanks Jason
Gosh you do cut us to the quick, just one change eh? In that case...
Cantrips and Orisons need some adjustment to work as at-will powers. Ross Byers hit it rather solidly by caping the 0-level at will uses to Caster Level 1. As the cantrips and orisons remain actual spells a spell caster could use higher level spell slots to memorize/prepare/spontaneously-cast to get more caster levels out of them. It's just their use as at-will powers that needs to be capped.
And thank you and the Paizo staff for putting up with us rabid fans.
I'd probably replace the Fighter with more specific classes, like maybe a swashbuckler and knight class. These classes would have they're own unique class features that allow them to do what they're supposed to do.
An elimination of the cost of scribing spells into a wizard's primary spellbook. It costs less to make a scroll of the same level for 1st and 2nd! And most wizards I have played with always have a backup spellbook, so they are constantly hemorraging money unless they manage to find an enemy's spellbook to crib from and then sell to make up the costs.
Some change of this rule would also make maintaining a wizard's wealth per level a lot easier on the game master.
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Kudos to Paizo and all of the folks that have worked so hard to make this game so great!
I would creat something like Epic level at level 13 (or somewhere between 11 - 15). You could call it Heroic level. A lot of the talk all over the boards are about balance issues at higher levels. Difference between a good base save and bad on is too great, problems with melee characters vs. Spell casters are to great, etc. What’s true or not I can’t tell but I don’t think you need to rewrite the game or rewrite the classes, or rewrite that many spells I just think the basic mechanics needs a revision somewhere round level 13. I think the game is great. Some stuff need tweeking, but the big problems seem to start at higher levels. So create a Heroic level somewhere round lvl 11 – 15.....or you could call it a demi Epic level or whatever.
Some of the changes could be: more unified base saves, more attacks during a standard action (a attack and move problem fix), etc.
Just one thing...
Let's me see...
And the Oscar goes to... Spell DC
I think the save X DC system need function a way that low level spells remain usefull at higher level. It's almost like you always have just the spells from 2 highest leves avaliable because the others won't affect targets. Maybe if DC were tied tocaster level instead of as it is now (rewarding the might and experience of higher level characters)
ould be a better choice.
1st: It express the diference beetwen pure and multiclass characters.
2nd: It's a fair way of judging that
3rd: It dictates a very easy way to balance Dc and saves:
Please check my math but with:
Spell DC = 10 + Cster level + Casting ability modifier;
Good saves = 7 + 2/3 Character Level + ability modifier;
Bad saves = 5 + 1/3 Character Level + ability modifier;
the good will save aproximataly 66% and the bad will save 33% what sounds reasonable to me. Also the feats to increase Dc have to be improved to +2 and +4 in order to equal the +5 to all resistance item
or some kind of Dc item must be provided to maintain balanced.
Finally, really thanks for giving us the feeling of buiding up the game of ours lives!
Go for it Jason!!!
Edit: I forgot about the rolling d20 so the math don't works that way but I still think tie DCs and saves to level + ability + flat bonus.
I am going to throw in with the change to full attack actions that allows you to move and still perform your attacks.
I do not care if this is reduces the number of attacks you get....or
And I really like Robert Brambleys idea of doing extra damage after a certain point instead of getting more attacks at less bab.
This would let combat flow like everyone has said.
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I won't waste my pick on mentioning how Quarterstaves and Scimitars should be Finessable...(Just like 20 people before me 'didn't' use the same 'not-tactic'...:D )
Grappling numbers...they are just too silly for big creatures.
I was running White Plume Mountain (3.5 Conversion, Pathfinderized), and the Giant Crab had a +32 Grapple...+32. The players pretty much automatically failed, unless they rolled a nat 20 and/or the crab rolled a nat 1. Sigh...
As someone who has raised crustaceans as pets, including crabs, I must say...they do drop things. A Small character (Halfling Rogue who got caught) should have SOME chance to slip away from the over-sized claws at some point during the encounter (Instead, she just took the 4D6+16 per round in Constriction damage...luckily someone else killed it before she was snapped in half).
-Uriel
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Let me throw my thanks onto the massive pile over there in the corner...My group and I are very happy to have participated in this.
One thing is a rough choice but I choose...
Warriors. I mean the Fighter, Paladin, Ranger and Barbarian. They are all out of wack compared to each other. The Barbarian is head and shoulders above the others. I want to see them on equal footing, and I don't mean Nerf the Barbarian, but help out the other three. The details and ideas are already out there so I won't go into it. But Please, I want a variety of different warriors that all shine in their own way. Damage dealers, AC-Damage Takers, Dex-Based, Missile, 2-weapon, even the chain-fighters...
I just want to see them all have their moment in the sun and to be no better or worse than the others.
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First off, a big thank you to everyone at Paizo and in this community for keeping D&D alive!
As for my one change, I would make monk special weapons deal monk unarmed damage. Too many martial arts films are about a quest for a sacred staff, kama, etc and that flavor is lost at mid-high levels with said weapon still only doing 1d6. Also, this change will help alleviate the disparity between monks and the other "martial" classes in terms of hit/damage ratio. A +5 kama is much more affordable than an amulet of mighty fists +5.
Ryn, who likes his monks.
Simplify iterative attacks. Reduce in number (with adequate compensation - worth looking here), flatten the modifiers or both. One of the many things that make high-level play sloooooowwwww dddooooowwwwnnnn is full attack rounds from buffed fighters and monks with flurry of misses:
"First attack hits 28, sorry 30, no 31, with the bless? 32. Second attack hits 29 - wait a second - 30 - oh do we still have the haste? -OK 31, actually that first attack hits 33. Third attack...22... wait, wait, 23, no 25. Fourth attack...." (rest of table collectively lose will to live).
I love bloodlines they added some much needed flavor to the sorcerer. i would like to see them get their bonus spell known from their bloodline 2 levels sooner, with 0 or 1 spells per day at that level. this would give them spell access at the same rate as the wizard, and make bloodlines more relivent, rather than just flavor.
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The grapple rules have been simplified, but I still get confused by them. Every time someone gets grappled, I groan because it means I need to re-read those pages for the N'th time.
Maybe adding a flowchart showing the different conditions and options available for the attacker and the defender at any given point would be of help?
The DWARF
Far better than any other race.
If there was one thing I would change it would be that metamagic given from sources that don't require actual level adjustment (i.e. sudden feats, universalist school, metamagic rods etc.) were not allowed to exceed what the caster himself could cast.
Absolutely. This would be my pick too.
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Hello everyone,
I have one last assignment for all of you fanatical playtesters out there. In this thread, I would like to hear the ONE thing that you would change in the rules if you had the power to do so. Since I want to keep this thread nice and orderly.. here are the rules.
1. You can only post to this thread ONCE. If you post a second time, I will delete your post. This includes sock puppets.
2. Only ONE idea in a post. If you want to change channel energy, that is your one idea. Do not add domains to the pot as well. This means that if you want to talk about a class, you should probably limit it to one aspect about the class.
3. Don't bother commenting on someone else's post. I want to hear your idea.
4. Reread rule #1
5. I would like for all of the playtesters to post to this thread once with their idea. This is both an informal poll and a simple census of the current number of active playtesters.
6. EDIT: Please do not start any new threads to talk about specific ideas in this thread. Lets let folks post without having to worry about other comments and feedback. Just ideas... that is all I want.
Thanks for participating in this thread.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
{Ranger Class}Change the Combat Style Machanic to Rogue Style Talents.
Overhaul cleric domain abilities.
Reasoning:
-Dimensional hop makes travel a must have domain compared to the others. That illustrates the others either need a power in comparison to that or travel needs to be toned back slightly though I love it where it is.
-Other abilities such as aura have the cleric burning his std action to start them. And the lvl one touch abilities were a cool idea but also require the cleric to burn their std action also very limited use due to day/round limitations on them, maybe make them useable in conjunction with a cast heal/harm spell.
I would like to see D20 Modern and/or 4E Action Point type rules listed as an optional component to Pathfinder.
In my 20 years of gaming experience, the ability for the player to use a luck-like mechanic to adjust a seemingly never ending string of crappy dice rolls has always helped to keep spirits up.
Also, a limited ability to get an extra move, standard or swift action has created countless heroic encounters in the games I've played in.
In my opinion, Action/Luck Points give the DM another resource to reward players.
Finally, Action Points can be used by certain key NPCs at the DM's discretion to make them slightly tougher and to give them more options.
Flanked as a state or status. If an enemy is flanked by two melee attackers that enemy becomes "flanked" as a status (or call it harried or something). Any other melee attackers will also receive a flanking bonus to attack the "flanked" enemy, as well as allowing a rogue to sneak attack. It makes sense doesn't it?
Think about it: two allies have an enemy flanked. A third ally approaches for the attack, but this ally doesn't find it any easier to attack the enemy, even with his other two buddies who are banging away on the same guy?
Players love it, goblins love it, what's not to like? Win-win!
Errg... *resists plugging all the other things I want to mention*
Hunter's Bond: Animal Companions
PLEASE give rangers more than 1/2 druid level for their companions. At high levels their "pets" are just that, worthless, and often just get left at the base or otherwise stay away from the fight so they won't die so much.
If that's too far from 3.5, then let (Ranger and Druid) animal companions gain small increases with every level the PC gains instead of a jump every 4 levels (or 2 for druids).
While I do believe the 3.5 fighter needs a boost, giving him bigger numbers in the form of Armor Training and Weapon Training is not the way to make him better, it only causes a much LARGER rift between the fighter and the other classes (making it much tougher to balance high level monsters).
Fighters need feats (or talents like rogues) that do the following:
1) Allow for some form of magical protection (or quicker recovery)
2) Give them battle field control to some extent and better tools to be effective, such as:
- stopping foes from going past them
- protecting an adjacent ally with a shield
- 5' extension of reach
- perform trip, disarm, or bull rush as part of an attack
- more effective standard attack (for when the fighter moves)
- better armor capabilites (no move penalty, DR, higher max dex, less armor check penalty, NOT bonuses to AC)
Some of these abilities shouldn't kick in until higher levels, but considering what power levels are being reached when characters are 15th level and higher, I don't think these abilities are out of line.
Please keep the character classes vastly different like was the vision of Gygax and Arneson in the original experience. Here, my one example is the hit point change - let us go back to the old way. Wizards should be wimps with d4 and Fighters much tougher at d10. Thieves should have d6, etc.
In the original vision, which I think is grand, it required medieval cooperation where each character used their specialized skills for the greater benefit of the party. You had to or else be overwelmed by the kobolds in the caves of chaos! Thus, fighters protected the wizards, thieves (not rogues) darted about with knees bent shooting and avoiding getting too close to the melee. In my experience with 3.5e there has never been a problem with characters dying off at low levels.
Yes, my recommendation is to remove the hit dice modifications for the final version this summer.
For rangers and paladins, caster level = character level