I don't think its statistically any worse than what I get out of Invis Castle, but my rolls are on the low side.
Redirected from the other thread...
Neither do the Pathfinder rules as written grant you the ability to breath under water, but you would no doubt feel ill-used were you to drown in octopus form. ;p
Actually, it does say that you can breathe water (or at least that you can "breathe while swimming or burrowing").
At any rate, if I have to hold my breath for 7 rounds (14 Con = 7 rounds of holding breath), so be it. We can at least let Jason know that the rule is ambiguous.
Ahhh. Do you all agree I interpreted the grapple rule correctly? Shouldn't the grappled PC get some sort of opposing roll?
Nice catch on the "bite needed for lion to grapple" Hogarth. Though I've seen some film of lions trying to bring down buffaloes. They hang on with their claws and repeatedly bite the poor beast while it carries them. Based on that I'd probably house rule that claw hits should let a grapple start too. But we're not house ruling the playtest. Rake is a bonus attack from the pounce, it can't start a grapple.
Second round actions can be changed depending on outcome of the grappling discussion.
Bed time.
|
Ahhh. Do you all agree I interpreted the grapple rule correctly? Shouldn't the grappled PC get some sort of opposing roll?
Getting rid of the opposed roll is one of the major intents of the CMB rules. On the other hand, the "grappled" condition is much, much less painful than being grappled used to be. Being pinned, however, still sucks.
|
Ahhh. Do you all agree I interpreted the grapple rule correctly? Shouldn't the grappled PC get some sort of opposing roll?
Nice catch on the "bite needed for lion to grapple" Hogarth. Though I've seen some film of lions trying to bring down buffaloes. They hang on with their claws and repeatedly bite the poor beast while it carries them. Based on that I'd probably house rule that claw hits should let a grapple start too. But we're not house ruling the playtest. Rake is a bonus attack from the pounce, it can't start a grapple.
Second round actions can be changed depending on outcome of the grappling discussion.
Bed time.
The only question that I had was which attacks hit each of the targets. In the Dire Lion charge, he had a full attack (2 claws, bite) and 2 rake attacks. The Improved Grab would only kick in if the bite attack hit. I'm assuming that was the situation, but it wasn't clear from your post (or I'm blind and completely missed it, sorry if that's the case).
They did get rid of the opposed roll. This has been hard for me to wrap my head around, since basically, players need to consider CMB to be just as important as AC is now. So far, the players in my pbem (running with Pathfinder rules) haven't really paid this too much attention, and neither have I, but that will change soon.
|
|
As I read the grapple rules the lions have a CMB of 7+5+1= 13base attack +7, str bonus +5, size +1
The dire lion on Sleepy is 12+7+2=21
Jut to clarify the Dire Lion CMB, I'm taking these numbers from the SRD version.
BAB: +6
STR: +7 from Str 25
Size: +1 from being large
CMB: +14
therealthom's version above looks like numbers derived from a different write-up. If the grappler is hit when making the grapple, then the damage taken is added to the DC of the grapple attempt. That would make the DC for the grapple to be 15 (base) + 11 (sleepy's CMB) + 23 (the damage from 3 attacks that hit), or 49.
That would seem to indicate a miss, but from therealthom's grapple roll, I'm not sure what the d20 roll was. The dire lion should have a modifier of +14, so even with a 20, that would miss.
By the way, I'm also trying to figure these rules out myself - so please forgive me if I get the details wrong. I really want to throw a feral-type psychic warrior (think claws, vampiric claws, etc) at my PCs in the near future so I'd like to get this down too.
therealthom's version above looks like numbers derived from a different write-up. If the grappler is hit when making the grapple, then the damage taken is added to the DC of the grapple attempt. That would make the DC for the grapple to be 15 (base) + 11 (sleepy's CMB) + 23 (the damage from 3 attacks that hit), or 49.
None of the lions got hit by an attack of opportunity while attempting to grapple, so adding the "damage taken" to the DC doesn't make any sense.
I'm a little suspicious about the BAB numbers listed for the lions/dire lions, but maybe they're advanced in HD somehow.
|
|
therealthom's version above looks like numbers derived from a different write-up. If the grappler is hit when making the grapple, then the damage taken is added to the DC of the grapple attempt. That would make the DC for the grapple to be 15 (base) + 11 (sleepy's CMB) + 23 (the damage from 3 attacks that hit), or 49.None of the lions got hit by an attack of opportunity while attempting to grapple, so adding the "damage taken" to the DC doesn't make any sense.
I was thinking about the damage part as well. In my mind, getting hit at the same time that you are making a grapple attempt would cause just as much of a problem for the grappler as if being hit by an AoO. Damage from a simultaneous attack is the same thing as damage from an AoO ... it's all damage, just from attacks that have different categories.
(page 151)
Unless otherwise stated, performing a combat maneuver provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of the maneuver. If you are hit by the target, add the damage to the DC to perform the maneuver.
I think if you read this strictly with respect to an AoO, then yes, the damage the lion took would not add to the DC. I think this is just a bit vague, however, and leaves open the possibility that any damage taken from the target adds to the DC.
No. I was brain-dead while I was posting last night. That's why I wanted you guys to check. I missed their BAB and so just grabbed their claw attack bonuses. I thought the bonuses were a bit high. I'll adjudicate the game thread now with the lower numbers in mind.
I only listed the attacks that hit. Elmora and Sleepy both took a bite.
Guys, sorry I've been so slow.
Work has really stepped up, and running this game takes a lot of time with the rules searches. I know we're up against the playtest deadline, but I will have trouble posting more than once a day, maybe not even that often, for the next week or two.
I leave it to you to decide if you want to continue under those conditions. Or if someone wants to take over I'll bow out.
|
|
Guys, sorry I've been so slow.
Work has really stepped up, and running this game takes a lot of time with the rules searches. I know we're up against the playtest deadline, but I will have trouble posting more than once a day, maybe not even that often, for the next week or two.
I leave it to you to decide if you want to continue under those conditions. Or if someone wants to take over I'll bow out.
Maybe you can post what the stats are and current conditions? We could probably pick this up as a group and run it amongst ourselves.
If we're close to finished this encounter, let's finish it off. I can probably volunteer to run the next one.
|
|
I'm going to take a stab at putting together a round summary and a couple of map images. So far, I have the map and PCs laid out, but I need to sort through what is still alive after round 1. I made an assumption that we're dealing with a dire lion, a manticore, and 6 lions. That makes this a CR 10 encounter vs the 6 9th level PCs.
Sleepy, thanks for stepping up, man. Incredible map, locations are as I pictured it. You were right about the foes -- manticore, 6 lions, 1 dire lion, though the dire lion started at 70 hp in the scenario as written. Lions will cut and if they reach 7 hp left. The dire lion flees when he gets down to 23 hp. Flee free to disregard that or not, since the game is now in your capable hands.
Guys, apologies again. I thought I could do this, and then work went beserk.
|
|
Sleepy, thanks for stepping up, man. Incredible map, locations are as I pictured it. You were right about the foes -- manticore, 6 lions, 1 dire lion, though the dire lion started at 70 hp in the scenario as written. Lions will cut and if they reach 7 hp left. The dire lion flees when he gets down to 23 hp. Flee free to disregard that or not, since the game is now in your capable hands.
Guys, apologies again. I thought I could do this, and then work went beserk.
No problem - glad to step in. If you do have some time and still want to contribute, feel free to declare some actions for Sleepy Monk.
If we can get through this round, I thought it would be nice to try a hand at one of the scenarios Jason outlined:
- Scenario 3 (EL 16): A Horned Devil on top of a pillar of rock that is 50 feet across. If the horned devil can summon 2 barbed devils with a 100% chance of success, but not any other monsters. 2 rounds of preparation.
If we can bump the PCs up to 15th level, that's an APL of 16. Let me know what folks think. I can start a new thread once we're done with this one ... I don't think I can run two at once.
Sounds good to me. Now to get that pesky manticore under wraps...
|
|
In the spirit of getting folks motivated for the next phase, here is a map of the current roster facing down a horned devil and his two associates.
On a side note, the only action I was waiting for was Grumbly. I'll roll for him and have round 3 up tomorrow morning.
|
|
Initial thoughts:
The giant octopus form is fairly powerful. I think it outstripped the main fighter in the group pretty quickly.
Grapple seems like it's working. Grappling the spellcaster was easy, grappling the monk was hard ... maintaining the grapple was easier vs the spellcaster, and breaking out of it was not an easy task. This all seems about right to me in a general sense.
It took 4 rounds to finish of the CR 10 encounter for a party of APL 10. This seems about right as well, but I think I enjoy longer lasting battles.
In terms of resources, this is what I remember, and I think it's a bit on the light side for a CR 10 encounter:
Druid - one wildshape, air walking, flame strike
Wizard - one enlarge person
Monk - three uses of ki strike
Cleric - one spell converted to a cure.
My thoughts on the playtest:
-Even with the new polymorph rules, it's still possible to cherry-pick some good animal forms (like a giant octopus). They should clarify if polymorphing into an aquatic creature means you can't breathe air, though.
-Selective Channeling would have been a very useful feat...
-Using an action to try to break out of a grapple is pretty pointless, IMO. You're usually better off casting spells or attacking.
To be fair, a fight with a bunch of low CR creatures is not usually a big drain on resources, regardless of what the encounter rules say.
Should we advance our PCs to level 15 now?
I'll just post my sheet here for the moment; I can't change a profile at work.
Strangler McGee
male human druid 15
Alignment: neutral good
Age: 31 (adult)
STR..22 ( 10 pts, +2 racial, +2 level, +2 enh [alter self])
DEX..17 ( 3 pts, +4 enh)
CON..16 ( 5 pts, +2 enh)
INT..11 ( 1 pts)
WIS..19 ( 5 pts, +4 enh, +1 level)
CHA...7 (-4 pts)
Hit Points: 131 [8 + 14*4.5 + 45 con + 15 favored class]
AC 31 [+1 dex, +12 armor, +1 deflection, +1 insight, +6 shield], Touch 13, Flat 30
Initiative: +3
BAB: +11
CMB: +16/+18
Speed: 20 ft (30 ft unarmored) ==> +10 ft with Longstrider
Saves: Fort +16, Ref +12, Will +17
Weapons:
unarmed strike (1d3+1d6+7+6+4 nonlethal, x2), +21/+16/+11 [+11 bab, +6 str, +4 gmf]
longbow (1d8+5, x3), +14/+9/+4 [+11 bab, +2 dex, +1 mwk]
Huge earth elemental form
-->Str 28, Dex 15, Con 16, AC 35, atk punch +22/punch +17/slam +17/slam +17 (1d6+7+9+4/1d6+7+9+4/2d10+4+4/2d10+4+4), CMB +22/+24 ==> +2, +2d6 vs. evil
Huge air elemental form
-->Str 24, Dex 23, Con 16, AC 33, atk punch +20/punch +15/slam +15/slam +15 (1d6+7+7+4/1d6+7+7+4/2d8+3+4/2d8+3+4), CMB +20/+22 ==> +2, +2d6 vs. evil
Armor: wild dragonhide full plate +1 (19150 gp)
Feats:
Improved Unarmed Strike [1st]
Improved Grapple [human]
WP: Longbow [human]
Heavy Armor Proficiency [3rd]
Natural Spell [5th]
Craft Wondrous Item [7th]
Greater Grapple [9th]
Quicken Spell [11th]
Spell Focus (Conjuration) [13th]
Augment Summoning [15th]
Racial and Class Abilities:
Plant domain
--> +7 damage on unarmed attacks
--> Bramble armor, 15 rounds/day
Wild shape 6/day (beast shape III, elemental body IV, plant shape III)
Immunity to poison
Trackless step
+4 vs. faerie crap
Wild empathy (+13)
Thousand faces
Timeless body
Spells Readied
Level 0 x4 [DC 14] Light, Guidance, Detect Magic, Stabilize
Level 1 x5 [DC 15] Speak with Animals, Longstrider, Faerie Fire, Pass without Trace, Obscuring Mist, EntangleD (x7)
Level 2 x5 [DC 16] Cat's Grace, Resist Energy (x2), Align Fang (x2), BarkskinD
Level 3 x5 [DC 17] Greater Magic Fang (x2), Stone Shape, Sleet Storm, 1 used to recharge staff
Level 4 x5 [DC 18] Flame Strike, Air Walk, Freedom of Movement, Spike Stones, Dispel Magic
Level 5 x4 [DC 19] Animal Growth, Wall of Thorns, Death Ward (x2), Wall of ThornsD
Level 6 x3 [DC 20] Antilife Shell, Quickened Barkskin, Quickened Gust of Wind
Level 7 x2 [DC 21] Heal (x2)
Level 8 x1 [DC 22] Reverse Gravity
Skills (75 druid)
Armor Check Penalty: -7
Acrobatics -3 [1 rank, +3 dex, -7 acp]
Fly +0 [1 rank, +3 class, +3 dex, -7 acp]
Heal +22 [15 ranks, +3 class, +4 wis]
Knowledge (nature) +14 [9 ranks, +3 class, +2 druid]
Spellcraft +18 [15 ranks, +3 class]
Perception +27 [15 ranks, +3 class, +4 wis, +5 item]
Survival +24 [15 ranks, +3 class, +4 wis, +2 druid]
Linguistics +4 (aquan, auran, terran, ignan) [4 ranks]
Items [46,000 gp total]: wild dragonhide full plate +1 [19150 gp], ring of protection +1 [2000 gp], belt of dex +2 [4000 gp], headband of wis +2 [4000 gp], merciful amulet of mighty fists +0 [5000 gp], evil outsider bane amulet of mighty fists +0 [5000 gp], eyes of the eagle [2500 gp], large wooden shield [7 gp], wand of CLW [750 gp], cloak of resistance +1 [1000 gp], masterwork mighty (+5) composite longbow [900 gp], lots of cold iron arrows, lots of silver arrows [100 gp worth of various non-magical arrows], 3 healers' kits [150 gp], 2 potions of invisibility [600 gp], 1 potion of silence [300 gp], two potions of protection from evil [100 gp]
Other Items [194,000 gp total]: improve belt to dex +4 [12,000 gp], improve headband to wis +4 [12,000 gp], wild large wooden shield +1 [16,157 gp], improve cloak of resistance to +4 [15,000 gp], holy amulet of mighty fists +0 (worn) [20,000 gp], strand of prayer beads (missing bead of smiting) [29,000 gp], dusty rose ioun stone [5,000 gp], metamagic rod of extend [3,000 gp], ioun stone of con +2 [8,000 gp]
intelligent Staff of Holy Armor (CL 16)
-Magic Vestment [1 charge]
-Protection from Energy [1 charge]
AL NG, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10, speech, 120' senses, blindsense, can cast Detect Magic at will, ego 8
[72,200 gp]