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This is a difficult post for me to write. I've been enthusiastic about Pathfinder since it was announced.
My campaign is now a third of the way through RoTR, having just finished Skinsaw Murders before going on late-summer hiatus. The players are not very jazzed about picking up again with the campaign. The Skinsaw Murders was grim, and they definitely did not have a good time playing through it. The haunted house took its toll even before the ugly TPK with Xanesha at the end.
If TSM was wildly anomolous, I wouldn't be concerned. However, looking over the entire RoTR and CoCT APs I can see that it's not. Pathfinder AP modules tend to be dark. VERY DARK. Second Darkness (heh) doesn't look to be any different.
I'm concerned that the Pathfinder APs are too thematically dark for my group. Obviously, other parties mileage may vary. I know that the Paizo editorial staff are big Lovecraft fans, but I and my players would really appreciate more LOTR-ish heroism and less Cthulhu-style gore and horror.
Please discuss.
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Actually, I agree to a point. I would like to see a bit more high-adventure stuff. Even in the modules, Falcon's Hollow is run by the lumber barons bleeding the populace dry with most people in town having no hope to get out of the situation other than to die after slaving away for a lifetime to try to make ends meet. And that's just the background.
It does seem a bit dark and I would like to see some light. Everything seems to be the 'seedy underbelly' with no lightness to compare it to.
I still like dark in the adventures but when it permeates the entire setting, adventures and lifestyles of the NPC to a constantly high level it seems to be too much. "Great, I saved the people. Now they are ripe for exploitation by the government/local authority/land barons".
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I think they went a bit too far with RotRL, having misjudged the audience a bit, and have toned it down a bit since then. I'm beginning to find some of the themes a bit samey - the start of the third AP seemed a bit similar to the start of the second to me - and would welcome a bit more heroism rather than filth-smacking. There is an argument that making the bad guys despicable help provide motivation to the PCs, but personally more traditional evil overlords and fewer crime barons might be good for a change of pace.
The pathfinder campaign paths can verge towards the dark but I personally quite like it. As for being too dark I personally do not think so but obviously matter of personal taste are matters of personal taste. I do agree that certain one is particular are a lot darker than other (I'm looking at you Mr Logue) but overall I don't think they're are overwhelmingly so.
With RotRL there are two quite dark adventures in a row with the Skinsaw Murders and the Hook Mountain Massacre but the rest of the adventures aren't nearly so dark. They have there moments
but all in all the rest of the modules are generally not as dark as the second an third.
With CotCT I do think its so much dark in tone as a bit harrowing
As for the new adventure path who can tell.
[spoiler] Being based around drow it is bound to have some level of darkness to it as they are a race of sadistic, megalomaniacal slavers. I'd imagine that the section in the drow city will be the worst for this. [/spoilers]
Despite the darkness of some of these modules I feel it is used well. Without this element of darkness there would be less conflict, less impact. Sherlock homes would not have been half as famous if he had only gone after shop lifters and litterers. I find that the darker the Villain the more chance the heroes have to shine. I just hope my group agrees with me!
If you are looking for adventures of a less dark tone then the Pathfinder modules line may be up your street. Generally speaking they seem to be a bit lighter in tone. Hope that helps.
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Actually I don't think they did misjudge their audience at all.
I think they are targeting the more mature, adult gamers that have spent 20 years playing in lolipop lands, and looking for something a bit seedier to whet their appetites on. I for one, am extremely grateful to ba alble to play a premade module designed for adults instead of targeting early teenagers. I would like to think I have matured and changed in the last... well never mind how many years (I need a calculator to figure it out!)
I hate to put it this way, but if the games are too dark, lighten them up as GM-it's your job as GM to adjust the scenario to fit your group. Throw in a faire, some halfling tossing games, and porters with coconuts folling the heroes. Have some serving wenches swoon at the heroes approach and a few parties in their honor. Finish it off with the PCs overthrowing a few nobles and usurping their lands to free all of the people and extend freedom and democracy for all, ushering in an era of enlightenment and economic properity.
Until the colosal red dragon swoops in and s%+~s on them... *thanks for that image WOTC*
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Hmm...
I can see the "dark and gloomy" aspect of the Paths as they've been coming in, BUT...
this allows for the PC's to be the great and glamorous beacons of good-hood in the area. Especially in the CotCT and mid-way thru RotRL, there's a good chance for the PC's to choose good vs. evil.
At least that's how I see it, especially coming off running the Savage Tide AP...boy was THAT filled with all kinds of darkness and evil choices.
I would like to see a more "classical" adventure path, where the party gets good adventure-hooks and can go kill/capture the obvious bad guys. That assumes the PC's aren't evil (like the cleric in our current RotRL game) or playing monstrous races (like the NG Goblin Druid I'm playing in the same RotRL game).
-t
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Everything seems to be the 'seedy underbelly' with no lightness to compare it to.
I still like dark in the adventures but when it permeates the entire setting, adventures and lifestyles of the NPC to a constantly high level it seems to be too much. "Great, I saved the people. Now they are ripe for exploitation by the government/local authority/land barons".
This pretty much covers my thoughts.
I don't mind dark, gritty modules but it's become the standard. I feel like the heroes themselves are dragged into the muck along with all the robber barons, thieves and other lowlifes that populate the adventures. There a very few beacons of light in the world and the adventurer's efforts don't seem to make a dent in the problem.
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I'm concerned that the Pathfinder APs are too thematically dark for my group. Obviously, other parties mileage may vary. I know that the Paizo editorial staff are big Lovecraft fans, but I and my players would really appreciate more LOTR-ish heroism and less Cthulhu-style gore and horror.
Please discuss.
I fall into the "Chtulhu-style gore and horror FTW" class. To be honest, I find the PF APs a bit too high powered (mostly magic-wise) for my tastes, but that's just a matter of simple tweaks.
That said, after three dark-themed APs (SD looking towards the grim side, even from the start), a lighter, more heroic AP would a good change of pace.
As LoF seems to be "arabian nights" oriented, maybe that would be the right time to offer something different not only in setting, but also in overall atmosphere.
This obviously means not less difficult or without sneaky, backstabbing enemies, but just with a tad less of "let's just hope we survive this to fight another day".
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There is an argument that making the bad guys despicable help provide motivation to the PCs, but personally more traditional evil overlords and fewer crime barons might be good for a change of pace.
What in your mind would constitute the difference? Just interested; I glean my p.c.'s opinions in such ways.
Actually I don't think they did misjudge their audience at all.
I think they are targeting the more mature, adult gamers that have spent 20 years playing in lolipop lands, and looking for something a bit seedier to whet their appetites on. I for one, am extremely grateful to ba alble to play a premade module designed for adults instead of targeting early teenagers. I would like to think I have matured and changed in the last... well never mind how many years (I need a calculator to figure it out!)
I hate to put it this way, but if the games are too dark, lighten them up as GM-it's your job as GM to adjust the scenario to fit your group. Throw in a faire, some halfling tossing games, and porters with coconuts folling the heroes. Have some serving wenches swoon at the heroes approach and a few parties in their honor. Finish it off with the PCs overthrowing a few nobles and usurping their lands to free all of the people and extend freedom and democracy for all, ushering in an era of enlightenment and economic properity.
Until the colosal red dragon swoops in and s@*@s on them... *thanks for that image WOTC*
This in a nutshell for me too.
Ive always loved the grittier parts of gaming especially after 26+ years of gaming. Its really refreshing to see that not everything ends in a ray of sunshine with prancing unicorns. You can still be heroes in Pathfinder but at the same time theres always more evil lurking about to keep you on your toes. Thats the whole point to adventuring, its a dark and dangerous world out there.
Its the same for me with TV shows too, my favorite episodes are the ones that arent afraid to end on a less than happy note and hinting with danger still to come.
In any case as Krome posted, the DM can adjust anything on the fly fluff-wise.
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Funny, I thought, for the most part, that CotCT was rather tame an light hearted. It was very much in the vein of The Three Muskateers, and Zoro and such. Things didn't really get all that dark and seedy until they visit the haunted castle.
Also, during most of history it was the plight of the poor and average to toil and slave away their entire lives at the whim of the nobility and hope to die with a chance of salvation and hope of a better afterlife. Look at the Three Muskateers. These are well off soldiers for the king enjoying life and protecting the citizenry to be able to toil in muck and filth endlessly. And yet it has a wonderful, light hearted fun filled frolic.
Same thing with Zoro. A rich landed nobleman decides he wants to ease some of the misery and despair the citizens experience in their wretched lives. He engages in fun, entertaining battles of the wits and swords with the Vice Roy. Meanwhile the average citizen lives and dies at the whim of the noblity.
I am not sure how these stories differ from CotCT. I mean after a while the PCs get to make a cross country trip to visit another culture and engage in cultural ceremonies. Then they make a trip to a haunted castle. It's like Disneyland almost. If this AP had been any more light hearted with fun filled frolicing I would not have been able to stand it.
Out of 13 adventures there have been 2 dark and seedy ones. I can live with that.
I definitely agree with the original poster. Although the adventures are definitely high quality, I'm much more interested in LotR-style high/epic fantasy than seedy, gritty, and horror filled.
That doesn't mean I want "lollipop land" or material targeting just early teenagers. That's as unfair as calling Pathfinder's darker angle "mindless torture porn." Either style of play can be mature, rich, and made awesome by Paizo.
Of course, I can (and will) edit out sections, which is working alright since I'm co-DMing, so I only need half of a campaign right now. But one of the reasons why I buy Paizo's adventures is because I don't have much time to edit and re-write, and just want to run some awesome adventures. Plus, since unlike many others, I am not as interested in the darker, gritty adventures, they start to appear monotonous to a certain degree and require some hefty editing for my games.
But I'm not intending this as a complaint or saying one way is better or worse. Just a customer saying "I think you are awesome, but in my opinion it would be awesomER if you did this." I love Paizo quality, and would doubly love an excursion (even if brief) into more high fantasy than dark and seedy. If that is not what Paizo is interested in, that's fine. Like I said, I'm only running half of a campaign right now, and can edit out what I don't like accordingly. It is certainly not all horror all the time, but it seems to be a very common theme through nearly all of the Pathfinder APs & modules to date (but I'm well aware that fans of that material have been poorly served for a very long time). But some variety for the rest of us would be cool.
Funny, I thought, for the most part, that CotCT was rather tame an light hearted. It was very much in the vein of The Three Muskateers, and Zoro and such. Things didn't really get all that dark and seedy until they visit the haunted castle.
I think some people found Korvosa to be a pretty nasty city (i.e. the monarchy is corrupt, the church of Asmodeus is just plain evil, crime lords are everywhere, etc.) and that made it a bit harder to love than a town like Sandpoint from RotRL.
Personally, sometimes I wonder "Why would anyone choose to live in Korvosa/Riddleport/etc. if they had a choice?"
Actually I don't think they did misjudge their audience at all.
I think they are targeting the more mature, adult gamers that have spent 20 years playing in lolipop lands, and looking for something a bit seedier to whet their appetites on. I for one, am extremely grateful to ba alble to play a premade module designed for adults instead of targeting early teenagers. I would like to think I have matured and changed in the last... well never mind how many years (I need a calculator to figure it out!)
I hate to put it this way, but if the games are too dark, lighten them up as GM-it's your job as GM to adjust the scenario to fit your group. Throw in a faire, some halfling tossing games, and porters with coconuts folling the heroes. Have some serving wenches swoon at the heroes approach and a few parties in their honor. Finish it off with the PCs overthrowing a few nobles and usurping their lands to free all of the people and extend freedom and democracy for all, ushering in an era of enlightenment and economic properity.
Am pretty much in agreement here - as Krome suggests, there's 20+ years of "lighter", more traditionally heroic material out there to convert and re-use if you wanted to.
I also welcome the emphasis on "heavier" storylines and grimmer, more mature fare and I know my group feels the same way. After 20 odd years we approach our games in a totally different way to when we were teenagers, and its nice that in Paizo we have a company that does the same.
BD
If the adventure paths were standard LOTR-types of adventures, I would not be interested in them. I like the mature themes and the dark twists.
Currently I am still playing Savage Tide with my group, because we only play once every three or four weeks, but I plan to play the Pathfinder adventure paths in the future.
I guess my campaigns have always had a sort of grittiness, and my players like it that way. However, I watch closely what my players want to achieve and give them that possibility. So that they can shine as the heroes they are. And if you do that, they can shine all the brighter when the world is dark.
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I am the opposite myself. While I think they are dark i feel they could push things even more. It is the dark, edgy gritty feel to Pathfinder stuff that first attracted me to them and got me buying all their stuff. I was disappointed when i learned they edited out some of the worst elements of Lounges adventure and how some of the authors have held back a little.
That is part of the reason i am eagerly waiting for Razor Coast to see how dark Nick makes that one.
The more standard fare is what drove my group and I to play other games again, Pathfinder is what brought us back again.
Course the real question is where do most of their fans fall, i am guessing their are targeting the mature fans looking for darker stuff since few companies do, but maybe they don't realize how dark some people see their stuff.
I'd say that Pathfinder adventures and setting books are just dark enough.
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I understand what you're saying - while I personally like the APs, I can understand that some people may find them too dark.
Having just started off Season 0 of the Pathfinder Society at GenCon UK however, I think those modules are considerably less dark and more "heroic" than some of the AP adventures. I've heard it said on the boards here that that is because convention adventures need to be able to cater to children as well as adults, so the PFS mods are more PG as compared to regular Patfinder's PG-13.
In any case, you might want to check out the downloadable PFS scenarios. They're shorter for con play and not an AP, I know, but their lighter tone might serve your purposes better. And if you use the faction goals provided with the scenarios, it provides another level that can serve to link more adventures together.
The Frozen Fingers of Midnight
You might also look at some of the non-AP GameMastery/Pathfinder adventures too. Some can be a bit dark, but others (W1 Conquest of Bloodsworn Vale, J1 Entombed with the Pharaohs, and TC1 Into the Haunted Forest come immediately to mind) are fun, adventure-filled romps!
I personally think it feels just right. It's bringing a little bit of the darker side of life into the game, something mature players can handle. Mature players can definitely deal with Tiefling prostitutes, romantic/sexual situations, murder, rape, etc. without it going too far
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Personally, sometimes I wonder "Why would anyone choose to live in Korvosa/Riddleport/etc. if they had a choice?"
I always saw Korvosa as a place where they "keep the trains running on time." I don't know if you've ever read Stephen King's The Stand, but there's a society built up in that novel that is lead by great evil (sorta like Asmodeus' influence on Korvosa), and yet people living there are happy: there's no unemployment, people get to feel like they're contributing to something greater than themselves, and although they fear their "overlord", they know he'll protect them because he needs them as much as they need him.
There are some people in the world who need things to be organized, who need structure and certainty. I think this is what Korvosa offers more than most other cities, being militaristic and rigid as it is. In fact, this reliance on organization is what, in my campaign, will cause the city to go to hell so fast. A city that relies on its structure to get by seems like it would crumble all the quicker when that structure is removed.
As for the darkness in Paizo APs, I personally enjoy the darkness of RotRL, and I didn't find CotCT to be all too dark, except maybe Chapter 5. That said, I'd still be interested in a more "heroic" AP sometime soon. I think with its Arabian influences, I'm hoping the Legacy of Fire AP is pretty "heroic," as it would fit really well with the setting.
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There is an argument that making the bad guys despicable help provide motivation to the PCs, but personally more traditional evil overlords and fewer crime barons might be good for a change of pace.What in your mind would constitute the difference? Just interested; I glean my p.c.'s opinions in such ways.
Well, it seems every guy you meet is part of the criminal underworld. I know that is a gross exageration, but both AP2 and AP3 kicked off with scuzzy criminal types to start with. In a sense, offing criminals makes for easier low-level adventure design (they don't have terrible powers and so on, and fit nicely in a town setting) but it left me feeling a little disappointed that the opening instalment of AP3 felt a bit like a retread of AP2.
By evil overlord, I guess I mean a dude with black armour and an army of despicable henchmen. Sort of a zhentarim thing. Sure, it's old, but they haven't actually done anything much like that yet. Yeah, I know that both the big baddies in APs 1 and 2 were pretty close to the the stereotype, but I've got a thing for black armour.
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I am the opposite myself. While I think they are dark i feel they could push things even more. It is the dark, edgy gritty feel to Pathfinder stuff that first attracted me to them and got me buying all their stuff. I was disappointed when i learned they edited out some of the worst elements of Lounges adventure and how some of the authors have held back a little.
That is part of the reason i am eagerly waiting for Razor Coast to see how dark Nick makes that one.
The more standard fare is what drove my group and I to play other games again, Pathfinder is what brought us back again.
Course the real question is where do most of their fans fall, i am guessing their are targeting the mature fans looking for darker stuff since few companies do, but maybe they don't realize how dark some people see their stuff.
While I don't want to see an entire AP delve into the darkest depths of depravity, I would sure like to see one adventure do so. So, yeah looking forward to see what Logue does. I don't just want gore either. Gotta be deeper than that, sexier, and more terrifying than just "oooh that is gross."
But that would be so cool.
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Actually I don't think they did misjudge their audience at all.
I think they are targeting the more mature, adult gamers that have spent 20 years playing in lolipop lands, and looking for something a bit seedier to whet their appetites on. I for one, am extremely grateful to ba alble to play a premade module designed for adults instead of targeting early teenagers. I would like to think I have matured and changed in the last... well never mind how many years (I need a calculator to figure it out!)
I hate to put it this way, but if the games are too dark, lighten them up as GM-it's your job as GM to adjust the scenario to fit your group. Throw in a faire, some halfling tossing games, and porters with coconuts folling the heroes. Have some serving wenches swoon at the heroes approach and a few parties in their honor. Finish it off with the PCs overthrowing a few nobles and usurping their lands to free all of the people and extend freedom and democracy for all, ushering in an era of enlightenment and economic properity.
Until the colosal red dragon swoops in and s%~%s on them... *thanks for that image WOTC*
I don't entirely disagree. I though that Hook Mountain was a little OTT but the rest of it was acceptable to me. Howerver, bear in mind that GMs have to read it and run the risk of having their psyches scarred by the experience - they are players too. But I know that the policy was to deliberately darken to tone as, if nothing else, a marketing ploy. I'm more bothered by percieved (by me, if no one else) sameyness than darkness right now - I think they have the balance, overall, about right (though the Zon-Kuthon article was a bit unpleasant).
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Personally, sometimes I wonder "Why would anyone choose to live in Korvosa/Riddleport/etc. if they had a choice?"I always saw Korvosa as a place where they "keep the trains running on time." I don't know if you've ever read Stephen King's The Stand, but there's a society built up in that novel that is lead by great evil (sorta like Asmodeus' influence on Korvosa), and yet people living there are happy: there's no unemployment, people get to feel like they're contributing to something greater than themselves, and although they fear their "overlord", they know he'll protect them because he needs them as much as they need him.
There are some people in the world who need things to be organized, who need structure and certainty. I think this is what Korvosa offers more than most other cities, being militaristic and rigid as it is. In fact, this reliance on organization is what, in my campaign, will cause the city to go to hell so fast. A city that relies on its structure to get by seems like it would crumble all the quicker when that structure is removed.
As for the darkness in Paizo APs, I personally enjoy the darkness of RotRL, and I didn't find CotCT to be all too dark, except maybe Chapter 5. That said, I'd still be interested in a more "heroic" AP sometime soon. I think with its Arabian influences, I'm hoping the Legacy of Fire AP is pretty "heroic," as it would fit really well with the setting.
Mmmm had not thought of that, but it would make for a great theme to hit hard in the game. Law vs Chaos. I had been looking at the good vs Evil angle the entire time, but I think I missed the real story of the AP with Law vs Chaos. Got to reread it now with that point of view in mind. I bet it becomes an even better story.
As for the darkness in Paizo APs, I personally enjoy the darkness of RotRL, and I didn't find CotCT to be all too dark, except maybe Chapter 5. That said, I'd still be interested in a more "heroic" AP sometime soon. I think with its Arabian influences, I'm hoping the Legacy of Fire AP is pretty "heroic," as it would fit really well with the setting.
I think that's what people are asking for -- variety. Not every adventure path needs to have the PCs running errands for evil folks, for instance.
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I don't entirely disagree. I though that Hook Mountain was a little OTT but the rest of it was acceptable to me. Howerver, bear in mind that GMs have to read it and run the risk of having their psyches scarred by the experience - they are players too. But I know that the policy was to deliberately darken to tone as, if nothing else, a marketing ploy. I'm more bothered by percieved (by me, if no one else) sameyness than darkness right now - I think they have the balance, overall, about right (though the Zon-Kuthon article was a bit unpleasant).
Aubrey the Malformed you should have a thicker hide than that... that was a joke :) lame one I know... but I am at work and bored at the moment and have to make due.
That Zon-Kuthon story helped set up my cleric's background in home brew I am playing in. Our characters started the game with amnesia (thought it was lame at first but it worked later in the story). So I had to come up with a background in which my character has an evil twin brother and they must fight to the death in a past battle. So I made the evil twin a follower of Zon-Kuthon, which in our game is similar to our Cult of the Blood. I will save you the nasty gory details... but when I finished my background there was no doubt there would be a fight to the death, twins or not.
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I've got no problems with the mature play of the APs. They fit right into my current gaming group and my personal preferences for grittier, more detailed games.
I think Paizo has done a good job of recognizing that a great deal of their customer base is older gamers.
I just can't wait for some gnoll ultra-violence! ;)
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Although I agree that the Adventure Paths lean towards the dark and gritty side (and I like that direction very much, thank you) I think the way how the DM presents the adventure make the real deal. Think of Zorro or Scaramouche - political turmoil, people treated little better then slaves, dying friends revenge, grim justice - but both represent lighthearted romantic adventure. It doesn't even take long preparations - the adventures don't need to be changed all that much. Just don't present to much of the gory details and concentrate on the resulting fights. Give NPCs, even the bad guys some minor, funny quirks, presto - the feel of the whole adventure changes (that usually works both ways, I often heard that the LotR movies struck many readers as much darker than the Books).
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While I don't want to see an entire AP delve into the darkest depths of depravity, I would sure like to see one adventure do so. So, yeah looking forward to see what Logue does. I don't just want gore either. Gotta be deeper than that, sexier, and more terrifying than just "oooh that is gross."
But that would be so cool.
I don't want that either but I think one or two adventures per path could push it a bit more than they currently do. I am not up on gore for gore's sake either. Will see how Nick does, I have high hopes for it but will see.
IMHO the pathfinder writing stand-alone mods or the campaigns is the best ever. They are dark and gritty, but that's what endears them to the players. They are adult themed, PG-13 for sure and that is so refreshing. I was chatting with one of my fellow gamers this weekend and I told him I thought 4ed was the greatest thing to happen to D&D in a long time because with out it Paizo would never have been able to publish this stuff with WoTC still in the mix, and Pathfinder mods and the RPG are exactly what a lot of us have been wanting for a long time.
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I don't want that either but I think one or two adventures per path could push it a bit more than they currently do. I am not up on gore for gore's sake either. Will see how Nick does, I have high hopes for it but will see.While I don't want to see an entire AP delve into the darkest depths of depravity, I would sure like to see one adventure do so. So, yeah looking forward to see what Logue does. I don't just want gore either. Gotta be deeper than that, sexier, and more terrifying than just "oooh that is gross."
But that would be so cool.
Poor old Nick is going to need therapy one day... unless this is his therapy. All I can say is glad that sick-twisted-perverted-demented mind is in someone else and not me. :)
For CotCT the whole feel suddenly turned high adventure fun Three Muskateer stuff with the introduction of (damn! forgot his name) that masked fencing dude like Zoro... I realized then that the dark seedy nature of the city was really a setting for high adventure and escapades.
And if you look at those old high adventure stories they are really built upon some dark seedy stuff. Just from Dantes alone, we have a story about betrayal and revenge where an innocent is betrayed and falsely imprisoned and escapes to make his fortune but then is overcome with revenge and ruins the lives of his betrayers... another where an innocent suffers the misery of years of imprisonment in an iron mask while a dacadent and corrupt king rules the land making his people suffer.
How is CotCT much different from these beloved classics?
I have enjoyed reading them.
Im hoping to start a game by the end of the year and I think my players will love the Darkness and Edge of Pathfinder
I love Pathfinder's APs...The darkness is excellent, although I have some players (including my wife) who like playing evil characters...so it get's a bit more railroady to keep them on the path...usually with cash as their only incentive...This happened in Savage Tide as well,cetain things disappeared from the Manor house...sleight of hand wise...
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Different settings have always had different flavors. This has always been both good and bad. The specifics will always attract some and repel others.
The question is, in the long run, how much will Pathfinder attract and how much will it repel?
As noted earlier, Rise of the Runelords was likely a bit too much, and things have toned down since then. I think this has been good. Darker themed roleplay has a very subtle trap that most people regularly ignore, that simply being that it very much can happen to you. In a Call of Cthulu game you tend to expect your character to meet a horrific end. When your PC get casually abused in D&D it creates an opposite reaction in many people, making them no longer want to play the character, and disrupting the entire campaign. Campaigns that delve into this must keep that in mind, and be sure not to make the body horror too "real" for the players or risk alienating them.
It is a difficult line to tread.
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Different settings have always had different flavors. This has always been both good and bad. The specifics will always attract some and repel others.
The question is, in the long run, how much will Pathfinder attract and how much will it repel?
As noted earlier, Rise of the Runelords was likely a bit too much, and things have toned down since then. I think this has been good. Darker themed roleplay has a very subtle trap that most people regularly ignore, that simply being that it very much can happen to you. In a Call of Cthulu game you tend to expect your character to meet a horrific end. When your PC get casually abused in D&D it creates an opposite reaction in many people, making them no longer want to play the character, and disrupting the entire campaign. Campaigns that delve into this must keep that in mind, and be sure not to make the body horror too "real" for the players or risk alienating them.
It is a difficult line to tread.
I think it depends a lot on the gaming group. Though you are likely right on your typical DnD group. I know for mine it was the exact opposite. For us DnD got old and we stopped because it wasn't dark, dangerous, gritty enough. It requires a few house rules to help but the darker themes of the PF's help too.
It wasn't just the rules but also the theme and mood of your typical DnD stuff, high adventure is ok but we like the darker stuff. It was why Ravenloft was a big game for us back in the day, it was the darker feel to it that appealed to us. Course not sure how big of a market that is, as opposed to the more typical high fantasy.
Personally i hope they start dark or get darker as a whole. Maybe they could switch off too, make some darker and some lighter. Either way i am sure they will do what they need to do to stay in business and keep making quality products. Weather that means lightening up a bit or what have you. I just hope for loyal Paizo customers me and mine are not in the minority, but as long as the writer and quality stays up this high I will keep buying and tweak stuff to make it darker as needed personally.
Actually I don't think they did misjudge their audience at all.
I think they are targeting the more mature, adult gamers that have spent 20 years playing in lolipop lands, and looking for something a bit seedier to whet their appetites on. I for one, am extremely grateful to ba alble to play a premade module designed for adults instead of targeting early teenagers. I would like to think I have matured and changed in the last... well never mind how many years (I need a calculator to figure it out!)
I hate to put it this way, but if the games are too dark, lighten them up as GM-it's your job as GM to adjust the scenario to fit your group. Throw in a faire, some halfling tossing games, and porters with coconuts folling the heroes. Have some serving wenches swoon at the heroes approach and a few parties in their honor. Finish it off with the PCs overthrowing a few nobles and usurping their lands to free all of the people and extend freedom and democracy for all, ushering in an era of enlightenment and economic properity.
Am pretty much in agreement here - as Krome suggests, there's 20+ years of "lighter", more traditionally heroic material out there to convert and re-use if you wanted to.
I also welcome the emphasis on "heavier" storylines and grimmer, more mature fare and I know my group feels the same way. After 20 odd years we approach our games in a totally different way to when we were teenagers, and its nice that in Paizo we have a company that does the same.
BD
That is pretty how I feel. I'll add that it is much more challenging, imo, to do justice to dark and gritty vs. light and heroic, and so I appreciate the professional touch. I'm not against a change of theme, though, especially if the quality we grown used to is there.
Interesting discussion.
For myself, I didn't mind the dark and vicious flavor of RotR as I just felt that it was part of the AP. However, when I started reading CoCT and the first major encounter talked about feeding orphan kids to sharks, I was a little turned off as it felt like more of the same. I haven't read too far into CoCT, so I can't really judge the AP as a whole, but my hope is that each AP has it's own feel, including level of darkness and violence. But it's hard for me to imagine a drow-focused adventure relenting much.
Legacy of the Fire sounds different and interesting. A more LOTR flavored AP would be great. Also one that's focused on the fey court, in all its wicked beauty and disturbing mystery, would be one I'd be sold on right away.