|
I believe the Pathfinder APs are darker than what we usually see, and really this is just fine for me.
I would not mind seeing a lighter one now and then, but what I have seen so far is perfect to me, as the horror is not arbitrary. It seems consistant, logical with the situation.
Keep up the good job.
|
For me, the darkness is at the right level. My issue, not quite rising to the level of complaint, is with the Falcon's Hollow environs being quite so bleak, hopeless and frankly depressing. But that's owing to a different style between myself and Dr Logue, so I'll just file them away when my subscription sends them over.
Again as for the whole against the crimelord thing I think in the context of the adventures it works quite well. Both begin in urban locations and as such it would be very odd if the mayor of a major city had to turn to a band of complete nobbidies to clear out the nearest nest of goblins/kobolds/orcs/CR 1 humanoids. I thought it has worked but I think I would probably feel it was getting a bit same-y if they began the next campaign the same way.
Also with a lot of the darker aspects they are religated to a more minor aspect. For example Gaedran's orphan feeding ways while doubtlessly horrific aren't integral to the encounter with him. It could be hinted at but it isn't necessary for the story. Having said that in the HMM it is pretty integral.
The adventure paths are just right for my group. Goblins aren't just the regular old goblins... They're nasty buggers now. I've seen my players make faces after I described a few scenes to them in the past few games.
It isn't over the top gritty, and it isn't quite a fairy tale either. I love it.
Ultradan
I have the funny feeling that a fey oriented AP would likely be darker than anything we have seen yet. Nasty little buggers.Interesting discussion.
...
Also one that's focused on the fey court, in all its wicked beauty and disturbing mystery, would be one I'd be sold on right away.
I don't disagree, but it could be offset by some of the more beautiful aspects of the fey court. Of course, that could make the dark parts that much more horrible. I guess I've always liked the mystery of the fae, for better or worse.
Not sure where I'm going with this, but I think it would be a different kind of darkness - less purely violent than the inbred monsters that use dead people for red paint. Perhaps?
|
I think fey would definitely be a different sort of darkness. And you are right it would almost HAVE to be juxtaposed against the light to contrast the darkness, which makes the darkness all the more devestating. In fact the more I think about it, the more I think that to do fey the way I imagine them, might almost be too much for a publisher to do. So I would likely be disappointed by a mor tame version. But I can always kick them up a few notches.
The darkness of RotRL was great to kick off a new AP. You should have seen the looks on players faces last week when I described
I should add they don't know about Thistletop yet... but they are itching to "get them nasty buggers."
More gritty and dark, please.
Agreed. The darker the better!
|
While I respect the opinions of those that desire lighter stuff, I always thought that the whole idea of Adventurers in general boiled down to this: Find people not like us, with their own folk-ways, and then devise a rough plan to break into their homes, kill them and loot their stuff. Afterwards, pawn what we don't want back in town and keep an ear to the ground for other such possibilities.
I've run a few 'endearing' games in my decades, but generally, I've found that the PCs are bigger monsters (philosophically, as well as brutally) than most of the foes, and that is generally accepted as part of this 'crusader' mentality that goes along with NG and LG characters.
Playing in Sanctuary (Thieves' World) is like Korvosa 24/7. But, I think that Conan, Fafhard & Grey Mouser, Elric, and other Fantasy staples of that sort would find either Sanctuary or Korvosa refreshingly *lite* in comparison to their own worlds/towns.
I think we're all agreed that variety is the spice of life, so a slew of dark, gritty, and gloomy APs is likely to get old fast, but as others have noted, there are 20+ years of thinly-justified 'Loot n' Skoot' adventures still out there (mouldering on LGS shelves or in discount bins) if there is a need for unprepared, 'light hearted' play.
You want dark and gritty? Try Iron Kingdoms.
You want depressing? Try Midnight.Best,
I have to agree with Kyrinn on this. Having read REH's Conan and Solomon Kane stories, Fritz Leiber's Newhon novellas, and Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion tales, heroes and antagonists both really would find Golarion a lite place to live in. And when compared to Caen (Iron Kingdoms) and Aryth (Midnight), Golarion is the greener side of the dark and gritty section of the gaming multiverse. Even Azeroth (Warcraft) isn't the bright spot that people think it is. Nor is Middle Earth. The very notion that LotR isn't a dark and gritty place strikes me as kind of funny (especially since I see what happened on Aryth as a possible outcome of what could have occurred if Sauron had succeeded in his plan).
I like the dark feel of these worlds. I can do light-hearted adventures in these settings, especially when I feel that my players are getting bogged down or have that hopeless feeling expressed in their eyes and deeds. Give them a side trek or two designed to put that spring back in their step. Having NPCs thank them occasionally or throw them a parade reminds them that they indeed serve a purpose in the world besides being evil's punching bag. Its only a thankless for them if they think that it is.
Ultimately, it is the heroes' (and therefore the PCs) job to make the world a brighter place. If they feel that the place is indeed lacking in 'philosophical luminosity' as it were then they should do what they can to change it...and the DM should be just as ready to aid them in that regard. If you feel that you and your players (being general here; I'm not looking to single anyone out) would not be so accepting of the content provided, then change it to something that you will like. If memory serves, one of the adventures in RotRL mentioned doing this very thing. Bottom line, the adventure is what you make it... be it light or dark.
On the topic of overuse of horror... to be fair, Skeletons of Scarwall isn't a horror scenario, so much as a dungeon with a lot of undead in it. The PCs are encouraged to run around moshing them all, not to get the jibblies around every corner like they would in Skinsaw or Hangman.
And... I have to confess, part of the reason I come to Paizo is for a piece of something different. I'm a big fan of fantasy, but I'm also terribly jaded by it at the same time. When every other D&D game feels like Lord of the Rings: The Nth Generation... I come to Paizo, and find D&D murder mysteries, pirate adventures, horror stories, crime-syndicate tales, and the D&D French Revolution. There's even Aliens coming up! Aliens!* There's nothing same-ey about Paizo adventures to me.
I guess this might be drifting away from the "dark"ness topic a bit, but I had to pipe up when people call for Paizo to do high-adventure style D&D adventures for a change. Paizo is my "for a change," my breath of fresh air.
It's evicting poor tribes of bad bad humanoids and thwarting Count Blackguard McBuhahaha that's become old hat to me.
Don't stop being awesome, Paizo! You're doing a great job!
----
* I was nervous about it at first, but then, my enjoyment of genre-blending helped me get over it.
The darkness of RotRL was great to kick off a new AP. You should have seen the looks on players faces last week when I described ** spoiler omitted **. After the sort of cute and amusing invasion in the beginning ** spoiler omitted **
It's a great first couple scenes. I'm not running RotRL, but the adventure I am running has goblins and they are definitely Paizo goblins. Classic Monsters Revisited is a great resource and has rejuvenated some of the trope creatures at least for me. I *love* goblins now.
It would be interesting to see what Paizo would do with fey. I just wouldn't want to necessarily see a Lovecraftian twist. I like Lovecraft, but more as a delicacy than as the main dish.
|
|
Now, I have to admit that I am definitely NOT opposed to a LOTR style adventure as long as Paizo can maintain the same high production standards they are now known for.
That being said I was actually surprised CotCT was even listed as too dark and seedy. I thought it was a cool, fun swashbuckling adventure. I mean rooftop chases, sword fighting masked heroes, damsel in distress... all strike me as swashbuckling. Sure there there is a plague on, and Asmodeus is not being a very nice guy. But these are elements that allow the PCs to just shine all the brighter.
However, I did think Scarwell was supposed to blend both traditional dungeon delve with horror. While it didn't employ Haunts (Way to go Pett-marvelous addition) it did have some pretty darn scary critters if played up right. I mean really Danse Macabre has got to be one the scariest critters ever! dancing around in this beautiful music is an embodyment of DEATH. In my head I picture the animated movie Anastasia where Anya is dancing in the grand hall, lost in fantasy, when the Czar or prince she was dancing with changes into the angel/demon in the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark, when its face goes horrific and makes heads explode. All the while this beautiful, lullaby music plays in the background, so sweet an innocent... makes me shudder...
::tosses 2 cents into the pot::
I like the darkness in these APs for my own selfish reasons, namely being a Lovecraft fan myself and it cuts down on the cutesy anime knockoff characters from other members in my gaming group.
We had an overly cute little fey in out RotRL campaign. Died three times. Or was it four? For CotCT I believe she learned better but we'll see as the AP goes on.
I'm playing in Rise of the Runelords and Curse of the Crimson Throne, so I can't comment on their contents. (It sounds like I've got some good stuff ahead of me!) But to be honest I think Second Darkness started out a bit on the bright side. Yes, you're working for a criminal against other criminals, but that's more gray than dark to me.
Now if the bad guys had some kind of boudoir stacked with zombies for their depraved pleasure, snorted the ground bones of human babies for a quick high, and used the bodies of said babies as codpieces or party favors, I'd count that as legitimately dark...although also a bit whimsical and goofy.
But I still wouldn't mind. I'd even like it as long as it seemed suitable to the situation and the characters involved. I'm all about PG-13 to R-rated gaming. Then again, I am the guy in the Crimson Throne PBEM that the DM asked to start a post with squick space and a disclaimer when said post described exactly what my character, one of Lamm's victims, was doing to finish Lamm off.
I'm not a depraved freak; I just don't mind the darkness. The Night and I are old friends. I still cavort with her children, blood roaring in my ears and heart exploding as we tear breathless through the wood and then lay ravenous and spent under the new moon.
So you know, I'm really a very normal person.
|
|
I enjoy a darker setting as well, but I think Pathfinder does sometime slip into a tacky depravity. Rise of the Runelords for example is a great Adventure Path, but there's a current of sadism that threatens to reduce the entire series to camp (Deliverance ogres! Cthulu! Skinsaw! Pustules! Mold! Hooks! Necromancy! Sin sin sin!) I’ve had to tone down a few items in my game just to prevent my players from suffering ‘macabre fatigue’.
By no means do I think Pathfinder should explore Mary-Sue high fantasy, but I do think they need to encourage their writers to occasionally treat compassion and beauty with the same gusto that they approach desperation and horror. Too much of the latter without any of the former is just a sideshow.
|
|
I am all for the darker adventure/AP. Often in my game the high adventure derring-do parts are driven by the characters and their interactions with monsters and NPC's.
I have been very pleased with pathfinder AP's and the level of content that has adult appeal. It is this very thing that keeps my subscription going.
Cheers
DDM
|
The level of darkness in the APs is probably just about right (w possible excpetion of Hook Mountain but that was discussed ad nauseam after its release). If the APs titled to further darkness yeah it would start to get a tad much (or just silly) but there definitely should be problems, and grisly happenings. That's what heroes are for right?
As for the whole LOTR thing. I never really thought of Middle-Earth as a particularly happy shiny place (other than the Shire). Even the Hobbit has some rather macabre stuff with the trolls, goblins and of course Gollum. As for Children of Hurin that is pretty bleak stuff.
Lastly, Lovecraft is fun though Paizo is risking overdoing it. I'd love to see some more fey stuff perhaps in the vein of Arthur Machen.
|
I, for one, am loving the opportunity to run a game with only 'evil PCs' in a way that doesn't feel forced or weird. Second Darkness allows just that kind of space, and the dangers and challenges presented in it allow for somewhat ambiguous resolution.
There are plenty of reasons the PCs will want to stop the drow. Or help them.
Keep it dark. It's one of the things that sets Paizo a part. Our group enjoys the AP's but then we're a sick bunch.
I'll just throw my two cents in as one who doesn't mind the "darkness" in the slightest (hell, who am I kidding.....I LOVE IT!!!!).
Keep in mind I'm a Lovecraft, Barker, Campbell, Lansdale, Ligotti, Schow, etc. fan, so my games always veer between standard fantasy tropes, and grim, violent, horrific set pieces. My Greyhawk tends to be a little less Grey than some, I suppose, and throw in a biology/anatomy teacher's delight in some of the bizarre, horrific things that natural world and the human body can display, and well, my preferences couldn't be clearer :) :)
In any event, I suppose that a mix of themes is best for all involved, but it hurts a little bit to say it just for the sake of pleasing as many customers as possible, 'cause what I REALLY want is some truly dark, vicious adventure paths that push the limits of bleak, grotesque, Lovecraftian imagery.
But you have to do what is best for most of your customers (hopefully us sick ones are in the majority ;-) ;-)
Cheers,
Colin
|
|
The only things that might make it a little less dark by modern sensibilities, I guess, would be -- the heroes are noble and self-sacrificing; the violence of the bad guys is more implied than described in excruciating detail (e.g. torture is mentioned repeatedly, but never described); and there are beautiful things, even if they're fading, rather than just unremitting ugliness and squalor.
Then again, there are also severed heads being catapulted into a besieged city...
LotR is light in comparison to a Cannibal Corpse album, but that's about it.
Keep in mind that Paizo are still in many ways enjoying a newfound freedom. They no longer have to answer to what WotC says is proper and will sell. They are seeing what sells and deciding for themselves what is and isn't proper.
And we're buying it. Lets face it: money talks. The dark stuff is outselling the lighter fare by a goodly margin so that's the audience they cater to.
But they're listening to us, too. If we tell them enough is enough they'll get the point.
As for the criminal element, anyone else notice that the Savage Tide AP started out with a fight against smugglers and that the first couple of Age of Worms episodes featured criminal/unsavory elements as well? I think there is a very valid criticism there.
Director of Brand Strategy
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As someone who enjoys the world not only as a place to play (and I haven't really had the opportunity to run or play much in Golarion yet, to tell you the truth), I love the dark, gritty nature of it. It certainly makes reading the adventures and setting material a lot more fun than reading standard vanilla high fantasy stuff. There's plenty of that around, and if I want that, there are novels I can read that will more than satisfy the craving. For darker, edgier fantasy, though, Pathfinder seems to hit the spot perfectly. If it were to change, I would be quite disappointed. Though an AP or module or two with a different tone might be nice for a change every once in a while, I think that the overall mood set thus far is definitely the one I want to immerse myself in in the long term.
EDIT: to add to the discussion of criminal elements playing prominent roles in the early parts of the APs, I think it goes along with the idea that low-level PCs are starting small, weeding out evil or wrongdoing in little ways that affect a town or city, and as they level up, they start to raise the stakes, saving nations and finally the world. Criminal organizations seem to be a very good low-stakes threat, and varying it with goblins or gnolls every few APs is good enough for me. I'd get tired if it were always goblins or kobolds for level 1 adventures, so alternating between the two seems a good mix for me.
EDIT 2: Wow, that last edit sounds very similar to a certain AP "overview" released by a decidedly less dark publisher of note. Hope i haven't spoiled anything for anyone, especially not you DMs.
Too dark? There is a constant stream of darkness that saturates not just the Pathfinder APs but STAP is filled with some true depravity. Anybody remember the write up on Kedward Bone? He is kind of tame compared to the underling thing...
I think the shared love of horror, and Lovecraft that is shared by the writers of the APs and apparently many of the other staff members does seem to be coming on a little strong at times. However, there is also an obvious appreciation for Moorcock and his stories are very dark. I remember reading the Elric books for the first time and thinking "Holy $#!T, this is way cooler than LOTR." It changed the way I read and roleplayed.
I personally need to have moments of "goodie-goodie" fantasy. These moments help to keep me feeling clean. I do not want to have to scrub my mind clean after having done my best to portray the bad guys in an adventure after every session. It is easy enough to have some moments of comic relief here and there and that usually takes care of the darker moments.
Pathfinder APs have well-developed, three-dimesional bad guys. They APs don't have a bunch of generic black hats that are "evil" just because they say so. In order to create the correct atmosphere, it takes good descriptive text.
The 4th AP might have a chance to be a higher kind of fantasy, but the pulp fantasy world that is Golarion is not the PG worlds of that Realms place or the even the DL world, which was both dark and shiny at the same time.
Many people would argue that a "real world feel" has no place in fantasy. Golarion does a nice job of mirroring the grim realties of the real world and elevating to a level where there is actual living, breathing evil with intelligence, motives, and purpose. I personally do not believe in ultimate evil in reality, but in a system that defines the ethical and moral generalizations of entities it makes sense that evil be more defined. However, good should be more defined as well. Good, however, by its nature would usually be less pushy about things (LG zealots aside). Being "good" is, I feel, much harder than being "evil". There seems to be far more discipline and control necessary. Plus, "evil" seems to throw all the really fun parties.
|
|
I think it depends a lot on the gaming group. Though you are likely right on your typical DnD group. I know for mine it was the exact opposite. For us DnD got old and we stopped because it wasn't dark, dangerous, gritty enough. It requires a few house rules to help but the darker themes of the PF's help too.
That actually happened with the main group I realized this with too.
We got bored, went for the hardcore, and then . . .Realized just how bad it played out.
We then took a major step back.
It wasn't just the rules but also the theme and mood of your typical DnD stuff, high adventure is ok but we like the darker stuff. It was why Ravenloft was a big game for us back in the day, it was the darker feel to it that appealed to us. Course not sure how big of a market that is, as opposed to the more typical high fantasy.
Glurk.
As I mentioned in another thread, about Nick Logue's content, Ravenloft was some of the most feeble horror I have ever read. It constantly fell short, resorting to brute force and rules rather than the more subtle expressions of unstoppable power or actively horrific content Pathfinder, and particularly Nick, manages.Serious horror fans are much better off with Pathfinder, even if others pull back a bit.
Personally i hope they start dark or get darker as a whole. Maybe they could switch off too, make some darker and some lighter. Either way i am sure they will do what they need to do to stay in business and keep making quality products. Weather that means lightening up a bit or what have you. I just hope for loyal Paizo customers me and mine are not in the minority, but as long as the writer and quality stays up this high I will keep buying and tweak stuff to make it darker as needed personally.
One other key element of unrelenting horror is how it can seriously wear on some people.
I remember when Sci-Fi replayed the War of the Worlds TV series. One episode a week was fine. One episode a night and the raw pathos and constant pyrrhic victories quickly became overwhelmingly depressing.While Lovecraftian horror is not know for any victories, some need to be in there to prevent massive burnout. Very few people like their D&D when their characters are perpetually irrelevant, no matter how much they do.
As for the whole LOTR thing. I never really thought of Middle-Earth as a particularly happy shiny place (other than the Shire). Even the Hobbit has some rather macabre stuff with the trolls, goblins and of course Gollum. As for Children of Hurin that is pretty bleak stuff.
I'm totally with you on Middle Earth. I think one reason people think that ME isn't as dark as other fantasy settings is because we get very good textual pictures of places of light that the main characters are from (the Shire) or manage to retreat to (Imladris, Lothlorien). But a bit more consideration, even before you crack open the Silmarillion or Children of Hurin, will reveal these places to be increasing few and far between and eroding in protective power relative to the darkness. Gollum murders babies in cribs, ringwraiths causes enervating horror, severed heads fly over the walls of Minas Tirith, even the Shire is tainted for a while.
Add in the curse borne by the Noldor, the corruption of elves in the pits of Angband, the Dagor Bragollach, the fate of Feanor's sons, we add on to the darkness ME suffers... and that's without really getting into the Greek-style tragedy that is Children of Hurin.
|
|
Hm. I didn't really get into Pathfinder for the darker aspects, I got into the AP's because I'd read that the people at Paizo have had a history of putting together well-written, well-fluffed and well-executed adventures, and I haven't yet been disappointed. So far, the more dark-edgy side of it hasn't put me off, but I can see where others might be, especially if it's been a consistent theme-- I came in late, and have not yet picked up RotRL, so I can't speak to it.
(Off Topic: IMHO, that consistency of theme was the Ravenloft setting's biggest failing. Moments of horror, gore, madness and depravity have much bigger impact when they have something at least a little bright and heroic to contrast to. In Ravenloft, almost everything was bleak and despondent.)
I don't think that's been the case yet with the PF adventures I've seen. And I really hope it doesn't become one... I'm rather into high fantasy than grim and grittiness, myself.
From what I've read so far (All the way through #12 and partway into #13) and played/run (My players are in #6 now), I'd say that only Hook Mountain Massacre was really nasty - and I liked it. Sure, Skinsaw was dark and scary, but in another way - and I liked it, too.
After that, you can make an argument for Seven Days to the Grave, but beyond that, it's all quite okay - For the mature audience they're targeting, mind you. A lot that is going on aren't suited for small children, but it isn't meant to be, either.
In the end, it may be darker than some other worlds (though I can't say for sure whether Tolkien's stuff qualifies as lighter), but that doesn't mean that there's nothging light and nice there.
|
Add in the curse borne by the Noldor, the corruption of elves in the pits of Angband, the Dagor Bragollach, the fate of Feanor's sons, we add on to the darkness ME suffers... and that's without really getting into the Greek-style tragedy that is Children of Hurin.
I just wanted to add that I love the Silmarillion for this. It's incredibly sad and depressing, but incredibly beautiful as well. The single scene that stuck with me most was Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth: even knowing from the outset that that there is absolutely no way in the world he can win, Fingolfin stands up to unimaginable evil anyways. Tragic, yes. Beautiful, definitely.
|
|
"Why would anyone choose to live in Korvosa/Riddleport/etc. if they had a choice?"
80'000 people live in Scampìa, and they don't seem to be leaving. Some people have no choice. Or they like to think so, at least.
|
|
I don't think that PF APs are Dark and Gritty adventures. I think they are Dark and Heroic adventures.
But seriously. Most of the dark and gritty stuff is in the details in most of the adventures. There are only two adventures where de darkness is a essential part of the theme: "Skinsaw Murders" and "Scarwall Castle".
In the rest (including "Massacre") the gritty parts are some of the descriptions, or very optional parts. It's very easy to remove those bits.
By the way. Making the villains to be nasty people give your players the reason to combat them.
I think adventures should have more villains of that kind. Most of them tend to be: "Kill that guy, he has evil tag in his alignment" with no other reason.
On a general openning point, it was the 'darkness' of the paizo Adventure paths that actually got me back into playing and running DnD. The Skinsaw murders alone has bought huge amounts of good will with me and Edge of anarchy is amongst the most beleivible beginnings to a pre-written campaign i have ever seen. All in all, please guys, don't tone it down, i came to paizo to escape happy clappy high fantasy in lollypop land.
Personally, sometimes I wonder "Why would anyone choose to live in Korvosa/Riddleport/etc. if they had a choice?"
Most people just don't have a choice, while those who do, generally can avoid almost everything thats bad about the place and would likely loose everything if they tried to leave.
Krome:
I have to agree to an extent about CotCT, it is, from what i have played so far, a swashbuckling setting with a gritty foundations.
|
|
I'm a big fan of horror and darkness in games, I think it's one of the best mechanisms out there for making a memorable game, stretching a groups roleplaying skills, and really getting to know the characters and the people behind them on a fundamental level. A friend of mine wrote an interesting little piece on this actually, about how horror is the most intimate kind of roleplay as you have to let yourself be truly vulnerable for it to work, and how comedy is a useful tool to generate some low-level intimacy which can help the horror to work, providing you're careful to segregate the two; I may have to venture into the depths of livejournal and dig it out. Part of good horror (and good gritty storytelling) is all about the balance; if every dungeon you enter is filled with torture, rape and flying viscera, or every NPC you meet is an unrepentant bastard you get desensitised to the horror/grit element really fast. I think this is why Paizo stories can come across as very dark, even though (so long as you stay out of Falcon's Hollow) they're mostly pretty classic "The party beat the bad guys and make things better" scenarios. There's all these little dark patches which can really get to you because they're not in a context where you'd expect them.
musings on CotCT not being that dark (spoilers specifically for Escape from Old Korvosa) below:
[The following is written jerkily and haphazardly, with the pen pressing very hard on the paper. It is obvious that the nib splits at least once.]
I am so tired of this city. So tired of villains hiding behind smiles. So tired of people exploiting the innocent for money, or for services, or worse of all, for their own twisted pleasure. There are devils, and demons, and worse, but most of what we face are nothing but selfish, arrogant, evil people! Everywhere I turn, I see the evil and corruption that lurks beneath the surface of this place, and I want nothing more than to burn it out with all the power at my disposal. Enough captives. Enough trials, enough prison terms. With the Queen’s actions now, those we imprison are more likely to be pardoned and offered a commission than they are to face justice. The only thing that they deserve is death. And that is what I shall give them. I shall let them feel the powerlessness they engender in others. I shall let them feel the terror of knowing that they are not masters of their fates. And then I shall let them die, and go on to whatever hell awaits them. This I swear.
For reference, I run CotCT pretty much as-written, this is from the most vocal member of a party who try to kill as few people as possible and never loot beyond the magical items of those they are forced to kill (and even then only assuming said items don't have blatantly evil uses, don't belong to the state or anyone they like and don't have an obvious application for the benefit of the city). This was just after they found out that Vimanda Arkona is a Rakshasa, it was the lovely Emperor of Old Korvosa that pushed him over the edge :). And almost immediately after that, bam, they leave Korvosa, he'll get a bit of breathing space and some time with his little crush Trinia, he'll remember all the people they've met who aren't evil bastards and are worth saving, and he'll come back more determined than ever to make things better the right way, rather than summoning an load of devils and going on a killing spree to "cleanse" the place.
This is why I think Paizo have an excellent handle on the use of darkness and light to motivate players to push their characters to breaking point without actually crossing that line and forge them into real heroes :).
That said I'm hoping Legacy of Fire will be a little... lighter isn't the right word... brighter possibly? Hopefully the Arabian Nights-type setup will encourage this, I'm hoping that even in the dark moments (I imagine it'll have them, Katapesh is a dodgy dodgy place) it'll feel like everything is full of action and bright colours, if that makes any sense.
Wow that was long, must be feeling expansive today, sorry.
Now, I have to admit that I am definitely NOT opposed to a LOTR style adventure as long as Paizo can maintain the same high production standards they are now known for.It kind of surprises me, though, that Lord of the Rings is cited as an example of light fantasy and even, by implication, 'lollipop land' in this thread, though.
No, I wouldn't say LotR is "lollipop land", but that's fine because I'm NOT looking for lollipop land (and I don't think others are as well). That was a straw man argument back on page one that no one really supports. :)
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
I just wanted to add that I love the Silmarillion for this. It's incredibly sad and depressing, but incredibly beautiful as well. The single scene that stuck with me most was Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth: even knowing from the outset that that there is absolutely no way in the world he can win, Fingolfin stands up to unimaginable evil anyways. Tragic, yes. Beautiful, definitely.
not quite as famous or poignant as Tolkien, but my favourite part of Infinity Gauntlet was when al the heroes, from Thor to Iron man to Hulk to Wolverine are out, and Cap is the only one left.
He stands up against Thanos, even though he has no chance, because he must.
not quite as famous or poignant as Tolkien, but my favourite part of Infinity Gauntlet was when al the heroes, from Thor to Iron man to Hulk to Wolverine are out, and Cap is the only one left.He stands up against Thanos, even though he has no chance, because he must.
Cap standing up to Korvac in the Avengers comics, even after Korvac has nearly trashed everyone else (killing most of them), is even better. I think that's what inspired them to do it for Infinity Gauntlet. Gave them a chance to show Cap's mettle in yet another decade for newer comic readers, too young to have caught the Korvac saga, to appreciate him.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
Put me in the paths are getting more polarized catagory.
RotRL
CotCT
SftS
It kind of surprises me, though, that Lord of the Rings is cited as an example of light fantasy and even, by implication, 'lollipop land' in this thread, though.
I'm waiting for Paizo's version of "Lord of the Rings". It's just like the original, but with more child molesters and nipple rings. ;-)
Most people just don't have a choice, while those who do, generally can avoid almost everything thats bad about the place and would likely loose everything if they tried to leave.
Personally, sometimes I wonder "Why would anyone choose to live in Korvosa/Riddleport/etc. if they had a choice?"
Just to clarify, I was talking about PCs. I can think of two things:
- The PC is a nasty person who likes living in a nasty city. In that case, switching to "we've got to save the world!" can be a bit jarring.
- The PC is a nice person who is tied to the city somehow. In that case, it's a bit jarring when he's forced to leave the city, as inevitably happens (i.e. "why didn't I do that before?").
Obviously there are more nuances than that, but you get the drift, I hope.
|
|
Just to clarify, I was talking about PCs. I can think of two things:
- The PC is a nasty person who likes living in a nasty city. In that case, switching to "we've got to save the world!" can be a bit jarring.
Pull a 'Wolfram & Hart' from the Angel TV series;
"You helped me save the world? Why? I thought you *wanted* to bring about the apocalypse."
"We want to bring around *our* apocalypse. The one were *we* end up in charge. Nobody else gets to destroy the world until we are done with it."
The vast majority of 'bad-guys' don't want to see the world destroyed (and, indeed, are quite fond of it's pleasures, and wish to be around for quite a long time to enjoy them!), and quite a few of those who *do* want to see the world destroyed, want it to be *their* god(dess) or Thing That Whistles in the Silence Between the Stars to be the one that heralds in the apocalypse and ends up in charge of whatever hellish reality remains.
I doubt even that mad Rovagug would cheer if some upstart demon-lords ended up doing what he failed to do...
The PC is a nice person who is tied to the city somehow. In that case, it's a bit jarring when he's forced to leave the city, as inevitably happens (i.e. "why didn't I do that before?").
In that case, it's incumbent on either the DM or the player to come up with a reason. Since this is an in-character decision, ideally the player should step up and say, "I was just here to try and help my Aunt Sketti run her bait-shop, but now she's gone and there's no longer a reason to stay here. I've finally saved up enough money, from selling the shop, to buy this chain shirt and this longsword, and I'm going out to make my mark on the world!"
There's a thousand reasons why a young person wants to leave the town they were raised in when they get old enough to make that choice. Half of them involve getting away from their parents. :)
To get more setting-specific, maybe the young soon-to-be adventurer recently received a Harrowing that indicated that he was going to die, if he stayed, or that his true love awaited him in a far off city, surrounding a pyramid of stone and whose skies swarm with battles between fiends and dragons!
Maybe he's felt the call of Pharasma's clergy, and stumbled his way into her most basic rites (1st level Cleric), but now wishes to move somewhere that has a real temple to his goddess, so that he can share his faith with others who believe as he does.
Perhaps he's been touched by the arcane, tutored by a washed up failed apprentice uncle, who has given him his old schoolbook to use as a starter spellbook, but if he wants to go further in his studies, he has to find *real* Wizards, perhaps in a city that has actual schools for Wizards!
A more Roguish sort might discover that all the crime-lords of Riddleport have every angle worth pursuing all sewn up, and anyone who freelances on their turf is Bunyip-bait, so he heads off to find a town that doesn't have quite so many crime-lords, where a clever fellow can make a dishonest coin without having to worry about magical Blots or Rotgut Rippers or the thrice-damned smell (and taste) of not-so-fresh fish.
Every class could have it's own reasons to start in Riddleport and want to move on.
Izeria the Barbarian may have left her Shoanti ways to become an enforcer for the local mob, enjoying the heft of linen, the softness of a bed and the taste of strong beer, only to discover that the soft decadence of Riddleport is only the smallest portion of the luxuries she could indulge herself in were she to set sights for Korvosa, and sell her fiery-tempered services as bouncer there! Like Conan before her, she'll cut a bloody swath through the soft-landers, plunder their goods, drink their wine, and make merry sport with their painted women. She may have been born sleeping out in the plains, hardened by the elements, savage like the eagle in flight, but someday she'll wear silks and wear jewelry of gold, paid up in tribute from those weak enough to require her services.