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I kinda agree with Mattdroz on this one, and don't get me wrong, you guys are great guys I'm sure and I look forward to debating with you on other topics, but I think alot of us just wanted to vent about what we feel was the death of a great setting. It has nothing to do with it being 4e, so you don't hafta defend the system, and I can't think of any other way to put this, and once again I'm not attacking you guys, but I don't care if you like it, or even if you play it. I hate, with a passion, what they did to the Realms. If you play 4e and/or the new "Realms" good for you, I hope you have fun, after all that is what it's about, but please let me gripe about something that bothers me.
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Dude - you speak Vogon!Every time I see Gleep wurp I think of the pre-gen PC from Against the Giants (the original ones) Gleep Wurp the Eyebiter.And now... I'm still so pissed I could just recite Vogon poetry all night....
Gleep wurp and a frumpled bum,
Din athly greep, whenna com stockulford,
Deeth not impur-tanel, greep,
Miggle, kan, dik, fant, vego vego norp.
yeah yeah, and I know Fonkin Hoddypeaks too. ;)
(I have to wonder if anybody else gets this reference)
Just because the person who started the thread has an opinion doesn't mean that's the only opinion that can be expressed. He asked others to chime in, and others are chiming in.
Absolutely.
Anyway, i don't think the original poster (Pax Veritas i think) intended to limit the debate to ire and bitter frustration.Confronting opinions about a topic (even a hot one) is a way to advance in a mature debate, with mutual respect.
I might be naive but i believe that's the point of a forum.
For my part, i must admit that my first negative impression of the new Realms changed a bit over the time, thanks to the arguments of some posters.
I didn't changed my general opinion, but i consider some of the points they brought.
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Okay, I was all set to write another post on why mature debate and all this on the Realms ... blah blah blah.
But I've come to a epiphany: It's boring.
Watching tennis level of boring.
There are those of us that don't like the new Realms and there are those that do. Every thread I've seen in the past year has been the same:
"Can you believe what they did?!?"
"You're a grognard, it's much easier to play now!"
"But the history! The NPCs!"
"Who needs that? Now I'm the hero!"
And then it devolves into ... civility. Everyone playing nice and showing they are not trolling or baiting, but merely expressing an opinion. And no one agrees on that opinion, so you get pages and pages of people saying "Yes, but...".
It's been a year. Those that like the New Realms are welcome to them. May you have many a good adventure in them and, if you have half as much fun as I have, you'll be blessed. I'm sticking with my Realms without a Spellplague and a timejump and will happily live out my days with them.
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I kinda agree with Mattdroz on this one, and don't get me wrong, you guys are great guys I'm sure and I look forward to debating with you on other topics, but I think alot of us just wanted to vent about what we feel was the death of a great setting. It has nothing to do with it being 4e, so you don't hafta defend the system, and I can't think of any other way to put this, and once again I'm not attacking you guys, but I don't care if you like it, or even if you play it. I hate, with a passion, what they did to the Realms. If you play 4e and/or the new "Realms" good for you, I hope you have fun, after all that is what it's about, but please let me gripe about something that bothers me.
I kind of agree with both sides. This thread is not really about reasoned debate, it is about venting frustration, and seen in that light I don't have a problem with it. However, to some extent, it is also about grief. I think some people are grieving for FR as they knew it. But more particularly, for a relationship with the makers of D&D which has, in their eyes, gone sour - WotC no longer cares about them, and has cast them off. While this might not be a significant relationship as such, this hobby is important to us and stepping away from the company which made a lot of the stuff we care about is a big deal. Anger is one of the stages of grieving, it's legitimate, and it needs expression. (I'm not trying to be funny here, by the way, but I noticed this in one poster whose fury is almost elemental on the subject - it seemed more than pique, a much deeper emotion than that in fact. I also remember the anger and bewilderment I felt over the cancellation of the print magazines.)
On the other hand, my views on the subject are a bit nuanced than the "love 4e FR / hate 4e FR" billing - I'm not going to rehash them again but they are up there in this thread. So I have something to say on the subject, and while I appreciate that some posters don't actually want balance but a place to feel angry, as this is an open forum balance is coming looking for you anyway. And to some extent, sitting around with a bunch of furious people isn't terrifically healthy either - you can lose perspective on what is going on in the broader community, even if it only to acknowledge that you don't agree with them.
Even if a few people like that travesty the people with no clues at WotC now call the Forgotten Realms it doesn't mean we have to accept it. Remember New Coke.
If you play 4e and/or the new "Realms" good for you, I hope you have fun, after all that is what it's about, but please let me gripe about something that bothers me.
You're welcome to do just that.
Please allow us to express our opinions of the new Realms, even if that opinion is (heaven forbid) positive.
Watching tennis level of boring.
[threadjack]
So, how about that Wimbledon men's final, this year? (I couldn't resist... ;-) )
[/threadjack]
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Here is the first of its kind, possibly....
I am calling this a cross-over post.
This is what I posted this morning in the Gygaxian thread...
Enjoy.
...a great many respectful and well worded things.
Miphon, I respectfully agree to disagree. I've taught in some high schools over the years, and I've read some books on generational history... (this in no way makes me any kind of expert), and in my humble opinion, great literary foundations simply ARE the great literary foundations of the game. Period.
And, if the newest generation, or a future generation somehow deems this "too much work" to be worth doing, or if they require (or need) a dummy-down version of fantasy role-play, then they will grow to forge a dummy-down verion of society as its leaders.
There was never anything "easy" or "mainstream" about being the kind of odd-bird who played Advanced Dungeons & Dragons back then, and it is no different now. A corporation (the wotci via Hasbro) has taken over what was was once "a product of your imagination" and has attempted to make it so "accessible" as to craft a product of "computer-colored Todd McFarlane hackwork that you see in the current version of the game and elsewhere."
It is also not my goal to make this post sound argumentative, however, we hold a fundamental disagreement about what should be, versus should NOT be, compromised for a new generation. Sure its a fact of life that generations pass, and new members must carry on torches of any institution, however, imo, it is the failure of our generation to have taught, instructed, passed-on, this wondrous game to the newest generation, that has caused such a reaction by the most vocal 20% as to "highjack" the game it self. I see no need to buy-in to a very loud 20%, including those in marketing who tend to make deci$ions based on profits, moreso than tradition, hisotory, or integrity.
Let me conclude by saying I'm trying to also add another perspective to the points you've just made rather than dispute them. And I apologise if any of the previous seems overly argumentative, as that is not my intent. The washing out of the Forgotten Realms, and the thinning out of alignments, and the diluting of what was once a challenging and mind-expanding product of the imagination is now little more than just a product, with some cards to use as replacements for imagination. It is this devolution that despite its easy charms, feels like a loss, a compromise, and a mistake. I don't generally buy the fear-mongering company line, that 4e must somehow exist to safe the gaming industry to reach the next generation.
The irony, in my opinion, is washing out the features of Gary and Dave's game, and telling the public they were "flaws" will ultimately be the hand that does the most damage.
If you play 4e and/or the new "Realms" good for you, I hope you have fun, after all that is what it's about, but please let me gripe about something that bothers me.You're welcome to do just that.
Please allow us to express our opinions of the new Realms, even if that opinion is (heaven forbid) positive.
Why? Whenever my opinion about 4e is anything but ecstatic, a dozen people or more start insulting me and tell me to get the hell out of the 4e boards.
You're usually among them, though you don't insult.
So why the double standard?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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What's funny is if I want to run a post-apocalyptic realms setting, Ed kind of laid groundwork.
Too bad MWP has never followed up.
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What's funny is if I want to run a post-apocalyptic realms setting, Ed kind of laid groundwork.
Too bad MWP has never followed up.
Not that MWP has never followed up, but rather that Ed is super-busy.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Not that MWP has never followed up, but rather that Ed is super-busy.What's funny is if I want to run a post-apocalyptic realms setting, Ed kind of laid groundwork.
Too bad MWP has never followed up.
Ok, at Origins (albeit last year) Ed said he had stuff ready to go up on the website, and the MWP reps told me that they were debating on going 4x or cortex, but it's been quiet.
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Dude - you speak Vogon!Every time I see Gleep wurp I think of the pre-gen PC from Against the Giants (the original ones) Gleep Wurp the Eyebiter.And now... I'm still so pissed I could just recite Vogon poetry all night....
Gleep wurp and a frumpled bum,
Din athly greep, whenna com stockulford,
Deeth not impur-tanel, greep,
Miggle, kan, dik, fant, vego vego norp.yeah yeah, and I know Fonkin Hoddypeaks too. ;)
(I have to wonder if anybody else gets this reference)
Please, GDQ. :P
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I agree that I've had an intense aversion to 4E ever since I heard about it. And when I picked up the new FR campaign setting out of curiosity, it only got worse. They completely destroyed the realms.
That being said, I've begun to think that the Realms weren't in a great place to begin with. There are many great points about how supremely detailed and riddled with canon the old Realms was. The problem was, it was perhaps TOO detailed. There was TOO much canon going on.
Golarion was a great find for me. Finally, a campaign setting with some blank spaces on the map and no multitude of Elminsters, Seven Sisters, and Halasters flying around willy nilly.
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I agree that I've had an intense aversion to 4E ever since I heard about it. And when I picked up the new FR campaign setting out of curiosity, it only got worse. They completely destroyed the realms.
That being said, I've begun to think that the Realms weren't in a great place to begin with. There are many great points about how supremely detailed and riddled with canon the old Realms was. The problem was, it was perhaps TOO detailed. There was TOO much canon going on.
Golarion was a great find for me. Finally, a campaign setting with some blank spaces on the map and no multitude of Elminsters, Seven Sisters, and Halasters flying around willy nilly.
{sigh}
Response number #132
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I like Golarion, but, um, there is already more Golarion published "lore" in its first two years than Faerun had between '87 and '89.
Let's see what Golarion looks like after twenty years, hmmm?
I don't think the amount of lore is an issue, I think that it is you're jumping in at or close to the beginning (like I did with the original boxed FR set - I'm not counting the Dragon articles before '87 for "lore" purposes). You get to watch it grow in stead of having to catch up.
Golarion was a great find for me. Finally, a campaign setting with some blank spaces on the map and no multitude of Elminsters, Seven Sisters, and Halasters flying around willy nilly.
Can someone please explain this argument to me? I played in the realms for years. At no point did Elminster or the Seven Sisters or Drizzt come bashing in the door to save my PCs. At no point in time did my PCs ever say, "Geesh, I'd like to accomplish something but so many characters from the novels are running around in the campaign. There is no evil left to fight." At no point in time did we play tavern beer pong because the player characters were waiting for Wulfgar to solve their problems.
Isn't it lazy DMing to invite in these famous characters to upstage the players? Its not a setting problem, its a DM problem. And if your players are complaining that Evil Guy A could never accomplish his plan because Blackstaff would have intervened, well then you have a player problem.
I also fail to understand the argument, that we play Campaign X now because we can finally be the heroes. My players were always the heroes. There were always big bad threats. The big novel characters stayed where they belonged....in the damn novels.
Sorry...for some reason I get very irritated about this suject.
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Golarion was a great find for me. Finally, a campaign setting with some blank spaces on the map and no multitude of Elminsters, Seven Sisters, and Halasters flying around willy nilly.Can someone please explain this argument to me? I played in the realms for years. At no point did Elminster or the Seven Sisters or Drizzt come bashing in the door to save my PCs. At no point in time did my PCs ever say, "Geesh, I'd like to accomplish something but so many characters from the novels are running around in the campaign. There is no evil left to fight." At no point in time did we play tavern beer pong because the player characters were waiting for Wulfgar to solve their problems.
Isn't it lazy DMing to invite in these famous characters to upstage the players? Its not a setting problem, its a DM problem. And if your players are complaining that Evil Guy A could never accomplish his plan because Blackstaff would have intervened, well then you have a player problem.
I also fail to understand the argument, that we play Campaign X now because we can finally be the heroes. My players were always the heroes. There were always big bad threats. The big novel characters stayed where they belonged....in the damn novels.
Sorry...for some reason I get very irritated about this suject.
Ahhh... I see you don't have Response #132 listed in you're guidebook. Please note everyone, this is #132.
Thank you and good day! :D
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Golarion was a great find for me. Finally, a campaign setting with some blank spaces on the map and no multitude of Elminsters, Seven Sisters, and Halasters flying around willy nilly.Can someone please explain this argument to me? I played in the realms for years. At no point did Elminster or the Seven Sisters or Drizzt come bashing in the door to save my PCs. At no point in time did my PCs ever say, "Geesh, I'd like to accomplish something but so many characters from the novels are running around in the campaign. There is no evil left to fight." At no point in time did we play tavern beer pong because the player characters were waiting for Wulfgar to solve their problems.
Isn't it lazy DMing to invite in these famous characters to upstage the players? Its not a setting problem, its a DM problem. And if your players are complaining that Evil Guy A could never accomplish his plan because Blackstaff would have intervened, well then you have a player problem.
I also fail to understand the argument, that we play Campaign X now because we can finally be the heroes. My players were always the heroes. There were always big bad threats. The big novel characters stayed where they belonged....in the damn novels.
Sorry...for some reason I get very irritated about this suject.
Yeah it irks me as well. None of these persons have ever shown up and caused problems in any of the games I have played or ran! Amazingly the pcs are always the heroes!
Personally I love the 7 sisters and whatnot and I love(ed) reading about them but not once did I fell the need to have them show up and save the day!
Infact im tempted to start a thread about my current realms game and whats going on and what the PCS are up to. Im sure no one else is interested but hey! It might go to illustrate what you can do in the realms even though there is too much lore and history to be able to get involved and far too many npcs to let your pcs do anything etc etc etc (nb that last bit was sarcasm)
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Sure, Blood-stained Sunday Best. I'll try to explain as best I can.
Reason 1 - If You're Going to Use the Setting, Use the Setting
As you observe, it's certainly possible to run extensive campaigns in the Forgotten Realms and never meet any of the famous Power Player NPCs. It's also possible to run extensive campaigns in the Star Wars universe during the fall of the Empire without ever running into Luke, Han, Lando, etc. Or to play in the Star Trek universe, just after the Next Generation / DS9 arcs, without running into anyone from the TV shows.
But at some point, a Star Trek fan is going to ask, "What's the point of setting this campaign in the Federation if we never hear about Picard or Data or Sisko?" I remember advertisements for the Star Wars RPG which pointed to Random Crowd Guy #137 and asked "What's that guy's story?" And the obvious answer is: "Who the Hell cares?"
As long as the Realms features Elminster, the Seven Sisters, the powerful Harpers, and so on --all of whom are supposed to be active in the day-to-day happenings of the Realms -- it seems a shame to never hear of them, see them, or interact with them.
"I live in Shadowdale."
"Wow. What's Elminster like?"
"Couldn't tell you. Never seen him."
Bleah.
--+--+--
Reason 2: The Lure of Canon
I can't speak for all FR DMs, but I've met my share, and most of them think it's very important to try to keep accurate to canon as much as possible; that's why they liked running in the Realms. We would get bardic reports of adventures in distant places (novels) or rumors of riches and power (published sourcebook adventure seeds). And, for at least a couple of those DMs, the fact that someone else, say, restored the dragons' sanity after they'd all been driven mad, meant that the PCs couldn't. If we had, instead of the party in the novels, that would have broken canon.
In particular, they would hate for their campaigns to go off in one direction, and then be contradicted by a future sourcebook or short story.
I suspect the same is true for people who set their campaigns in other published settings. Paizo has established details about how the Drow households are run under Golarion, and woe betide a DM who mentions publicly that she has decided to alter all that for her campaign. When Paizo publishes a listing of exactly who's running what in the River Kingdoms, look for the same kind of ossification.
--+--+--
Those are the reasons as I understand them.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I had a party run to Elminster once,
He wasn't home.
I had another party go to Blackstaff tower for research,
They worked with an apprentice who pointed them somewhere else.
I've never understood that. Yes it is a 'DM issuse' I used to think of Greyhawk as played out until one of the guys in the gaming group ran an adventure there.
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Sure, Blood-stained Sunday Best. I'll try to explain as best I can.
Reason 1 - If You're Going to Use the Setting, Use the Setting
As you observe, it's certainly possible to run extensive campaigns in the Forgotten Realms and never meet any of the famous Power Player NPCs. It's also possible to run extensive campaigns in the Star Wars universe during the fall of the Empire without ever running into Luke, Han, Lando, etc. Or to play in the Star Trek universe, just after the Next Generation / DS9 arcs, without running into anyone from the TV shows.
But at some point, a Star Trek fan is going to ask, "What's the point of setting this campaign in the Federation if we never hear about Picard or Data or Sisko?" I remember advertisements for the Star Wars RPG which pointed to Random Crowd Guy #137 and asked "What's that guy's story?" And the obvious answer is: "Who the Hell cares?"
As long as the Realms features Elminster, the Seven Sisters, the powerful Harpers, and so on --all of whom are supposed to be active in the day-to-day happenings of the Realms -- it seems a shame to never hear of them, see them, or interact with them.
"I live in Shadowdale."
"Wow. What's Elminster like?"
"Couldn't tell you. Never seen him."
Bleah.--+--+--
Reason 2: The Lure of Canon
I can't speak for all FR DMs, but I've met my share, and most of them think it's very important to try to keep accurate to canon as much as possible; that's why they liked running in the Realms. We would get bardic reports of adventures in distant places (novels) or rumors of riches and power (published sourcebook adventure seeds). And, for at least a couple of those DMs, the fact that someone else, say, restored the dragons' sanity after they'd all been driven mad, meant that the PCs couldn't. If we had, instead of the party in the novels, that would have broken canon.
In particular, they would hate for their campaigns to go off in one direction, and then be contradicted by a future...
Fair points, however unlike a TV programme the PCS should be the main characters, its their story after all.Its a big world why do you need to hear about all the famous persons let alone meet them?
And although these persons have not turned up in my realms, its still the realms. Guess the question is whats more important to you in your games? Is it the History the lore and locales or is it characters an author has created for his book?
For example my current game is set in Shadowdale, and the characters have been for a tour of the Dales, guess what...no Elminster. Not one of my players has demanded to know where he is or why he isnt doing anything to stop the Zhent threat. If one day I fell the urge to put him in the campaign he sure as hell wont be there to save the day, cos thats the the players are for!again its their game!
As for the canon. Well both I and the majority of my players love the canon, weve read loads of novels and devoured sourcebooks with glee. Doesnt mean I need to be a slave to it to run a great game in the forgotten realms
Sure, Blood-stained Sunday Best. I'll try to explain as best I can.
Thanks Chris. I probably have to say in all honesty that is probably one of the clearest most reasonable responses to anything I have ever posted on the Internet.
So why doesn't this effect of fear of breaking canon and novel NPC infect every setting? I don't see any problem with the occasional Big Man in Setting cameo but I've seen posters (And I'm sorry, I hate to generalize) imply that they can't do anything heroic because everytime they swing a sword their elbow bumps into Bruneor Battlehammer or by the time their character has knocked an arrow, Jaraxle has already slit the throat of the target. I don't frequent any Dragonlance forums but I can't remember anyone saying..."we would have liked to have an adventure but it seems Tanis implemented world peace. Sucks now. I guess we gotta go home."
Why is violating canon such a bad thing? Isn't violating canon kinda the point? Doesn't it mean you're achieving something?
To be severe...if canon states Room A in the Dungeon of Doom has such and such artifacts in them...aren't you violating canon by removing those artifacts. What if you sell them in the local town and someone gets a hold of them and attempts to use them for evil. Do you have to wait for a new supplement to come out that tells you what to do? Yes I know its a little sarcastic...and by "you"...I certainly don't mean you in particular. I'm just.... eek....generalizing.
I read a post that refered to a DM making a "noob" move because he killed off a god that was somewhat important in the setting. Isn't that your right as dm?
I'm kinda asking you these questions even though I don't know if you are die hard about maintaining canon....if you are and thats what you enjoy than go for it. I've played with the same guys off and on for 18 years and because of that my views are very insular. I really don't understand the format or the self imposed rules others play under. I am honestly curious.
Ahhh... I see you don't have Response #132 listed in you're guidebook. Please note everyone, this is #132.Thank you and good day! :D
My guidebook ended at response #87 - Forgotten Realms had way too much stuff to read and unless you read every single book and memorize the material backward you can't possibly run an effective campaign.
If you play 4e and/or the new "Realms" good for you, I hope you have fun, after all that is what it's about, but please let me gripe about something that bothers me.You're welcome to do just that.
Please allow us to express our opinions of the new Realms, even if that opinion is (heaven forbid) positive.
Why? Whenever my opinion about 4e is anything but ecstatic, a dozen people or more start insulting me and tell me to get the hell out of the 4e boards.
You're usually among them, though you don't insult.
So why the double standard?
I hardly see it as a double standard.
I think that those who visit the 4th Edition boards should be respectful and appreciate that there's no real constructive purpose served by popping in every once in a while to say "4th Edition sucks!" or the like. If you want to discuss certain aspects of the game, the reasons you don't like them, and how you think they might be improved in a constructive manner, that's totally cool. But I don't think unconstructive bashing is appropriate anywhere. I think it makes us look ugly and unable to control ourselves. If we're going to have a thread on the Forgotten Realms, I'd like to see it be constructive. That means discussing the topic, rather than throwing out extremes of opinions with a complete aversion to having those opinions challenged.
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Sure, Blood-stained Sunday Best. I'll try to explain as best I can.
Reason 1 - If You're Going to Use the Setting, Use the Setting
As you observe, it's certainly possible to run extensive campaigns in the Forgotten Realms and never meet any of the famous Power Player NPCs. It's also possible to run extensive campaigns in the Star Wars universe during the fall of the Empire without ever running into Luke, Han, Lando, etc. Or to play in the Star Trek universe, just after the Next Generation / DS9 arcs, without running into anyone from the TV shows.
But at some point, a Star Trek fan is going to ask, "What's the point of setting this campaign in the Federation if we never hear about Picard or Data or Sisko?" I remember advertisements for the Star Wars RPG which pointed to Random Crowd Guy #137 and asked "What's that guy's story?" And the obvious answer is: "Who the Hell cares?"
As long as the Realms features Elminster, the Seven Sisters, the powerful Harpers, and so on --all of whom are supposed to be active in the day-to-day happenings of the Realms -- it seems a shame to never hear of them, see them, or interact with them.
"I live in Shadowdale."
"Wow. What's Elminster like?"
"Couldn't tell you. Never seen him."
Bleah.--+--+--
Reason 2: The Lure of Canon
I can't speak for all FR DMs, but I've met my share, and most of them think it's very important to try to keep accurate to canon as much as possible; that's why they liked running in the Realms. We would get bardic reports of adventures in distant places (novels) or rumors of riches and power (published sourcebook adventure seeds). And, for at least a couple of those DMs, the fact that someone else, say, restored the dragons' sanity after they'd all been driven mad, meant that the PCs couldn't. If we had, instead of the party in the novels, that would have broken canon.
In particular, they would hate for their campaigns to go off in one direction, and then be contradicted by a future...
Having been around Candlekeep, the question has come up numerous times and been posed to Ed for answers.
Reason #1
Elminster, Blackstaff, the Seven Sisters, etc. are not there in day to day running the Realms. Simbul and Alustriel are both leaders, so they have a lot of bureaucracy and such to deal with. Blackstaff and Laeral are knee-deep in training a cadre of apprentices, making sure the REALLY big baddies aren't trying to take over Waterdeep and trying to find time for their own lives. El is ... touched. He spends just as much time in other planes as he does planting this ancient artifact here for an adventurer to find or simply trying to make magic more accessible while stopping terrible abuses of power. They do not swoop in any time some tyrant springs up or some decides they want to kill the king or something similar. They will give advice to adventurers, if they are run into but rarely will they have the time to save them.
For instance, I ran the Shadowdale adventure for my group. I had one player who kept saying "Why are we even doing this? Where are the Chosen?" The adventure explained that El's tower was blasted to another plane by Shar assassins and he's not been seen for a while and the ritual creating a dead magic zone proved to be very dangerous for any Chosen to enter. When the stopped the ritual, I gave them their wish: Storm Silverhand and Dove Falconhand showed up in their camp. He asked them the question at which point Storm pointedly (with her sword), told him "Sorry, we've been fighting a war to reclaim Myth Drannor, leading a couple thousand troops that have no experience with a bow or sword against an army of drow and half-fiends. When the 'Dale was attacked, we tried to help, but nearly died and had to run. Thank you for your help, when you need us, we have troops at the ready to take back the Dale, but the invaders still hold too much power right now. If you could, please do X. Now, we have to go back and make sure the summoned fiends haven't killed our friends and comrades. See you in a bit!"
Reason 2
Yes, canon is important to some. But as some point, you're going to have that 'cool idea' that you run with. Now a novel comes out and makes it so that 'cool idea' can never have happened? Do you reset your game so it never happened, erasing the story from that point forward? Or do you man up and say "Hey, that's a great story, but it doesn't affect mine."
Prime examples are the Star Wars and Star Trek universes. Everyone knows the canon and how the characters are going to react, right?
Hmm... JJ Abrams just made a boatload of money by keeping true to the theme of Star Trek but flushing the canon down the toilet. Star Wars, with the novels taking place after the original trilogy, has changed a LOT of what Star Wars Fans considered 'untouchable'. Heck, the movie shows Boba Fett falling into the Sarlacc's stomach and written him off as dead. Yet in the novels and comics, it's told how he was able to survive and continue for MANY years after that.
Now, yes, the new Realms does away with the established canon, so why shouldn't your DM? Or simply keeps canon as they see fit.
Anyway, hope that this helps some people understand where I'm coming from at least.
Watching men'stennis level of boring.Sorry, I can watch Jankovic and Sharapova ALL. DAY. LONG.
I suspect it's because of the noises they make.
My guidebook ended at response #87 - Forgotten Realms had way too much stuff to read and unless you read every single book and memorize the material backward you can't possibly run an effective campaign.
Ahhh... I see you don't have Response #132 listed in you're guidebook. Please note everyone, this is #132.Thank you and good day! :D
I play in a campaign where the GM knows virtually nothing about the Realms. He even let Waterdeep be ruled by a city council. And the Lords are quite well known.
It's a very effective campaign.
So what do you do wrong?
I hardly see it as a double standard.
Of course not.
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My guidebook ended at response #87 - Forgotten Realms had way too much stuff to read and unless you read every single book and memorize the material backward you can't possibly run an effective campaign.
Ahhh... I see you don't have Response #132 listed in you're guidebook. Please note everyone, this is #132.Thank you and good day! :D
uh oh better let my players know then : ( I was sure they were having fun
If you play 4e and/or the new "Realms" good for you, I hope you have fun, after all that is what it's about, but please let me gripe about something that bothers me.You're welcome to do just that.
Please allow us to express our opinions of the new Realms, even if that opinion is (heaven forbid) positive.
Why? Whenever my opinion about 4e is anything but ecstatic, a dozen people or more start insulting me and tell me to get the hell out of the 4e boards.
You're usually among them, though you don't insult.
So why the double standard?
I hardly see it as a double standard.
I think that those who visit the 4th Edition boards should be respectful and appreciate that there's no real constructive purpose served by popping in every once in a while to say "4th Edition sucks!" or the like. If you want to discuss certain aspects of the game, the reasons you don't like them, and how you think they might be improved in a constructive manner, that's totally cool. But I don't think unconstructive bashing is appropriate anywhere. I think it makes us look ugly and unable to control ourselves. If we're going to have a thread on the Forgotten Realms, I'd like to see it be constructive. That means discussing the topic, rather than throwing out extremes of opinions with a complete aversion to having those opinions challenged.
Im tired of 4e bashing as much as im tired of 3e bashing, 2e bashing and 1e bashing.
Eric
My guidebook ended at response #87 - Forgotten Realms had way too much stuff to read and unless you read every single book and memorize the material backward you can't possibly run an effective campaign.
I play in a campaign where the GM knows virtually nothing about the Realms. He even let Waterdeep be ruled by a city council. And the Lords are quite well known.
It's a very effective campaign.
So what do you do wrong?
Hey! we're joking you know? We're both pro-realms. We're just discussing some of the more prevalent arguments that we find lacking.
My first introduction to the Realms was through playing EYE OF THE BEHOLDER and its sequel way back in 1991. The first game came with a map of the Realms by Karen Wynn Fonstad that I thought was pretty cool. I also picked up THE CRYSTAL SHARD around the same time and thought it was excellent. I didn't get into D&D itself until four years later or so, but when I did my first purchase after the core rulebooks was the FORGOTTEN REALMS campaign setting (2nd edition, the one with the grey cover with Elminster standing on a mountin and Khelben going psycho in the sky for no discernable reason).
I think I ended up with 30+ FR products for 2nd Edition (still have them, actually; wonder what a barely-opened, never-used and still pretty mint-condition MENZOBERRANZAN box set is worth these days?), and really got into it. I particuarly liked the direction Steve Schend took the Realms in towards the end, with the ARCANE AGE products detailing the ancient prehistory of the setting and unusual products like SEA OF FALLEN STARS with an interesting underwater setting for the game. Plus there was FAITHS AND AVATARS, which possibly remains my single favourite RPG book of all time. It was so jam-packed with campaign ideas, new specialty priest classes and adventure hooks it was unreal.
I bought a lot of the early 3rd Edition products and enjoyed them, but I felt in 3rd Edition they were moving away from what I liked in 2nd. 2nd arguably didn't really have any huge 'Realms-shaking' events. The Tuigan Invasion and Iakhovas' underwater war were both regional calamities, but not continent-wide ones. Arguably there wasn't anything really huge to shake up the whole setting after the Time of Troubles.
But 3rd Edition seemed to go after the Realms-shaking events in a big way, with the dragon rage thing, the return of the Netherese, Azoun IV's death, the Thayans turning into merchants, Bane showing up again etc all going way overboard, in my opinion. It seemed to move the emphasis away from a world you could adventure in to a world that was being blown up every five minutes. Sure, I could (and often did) ignore these things, but it still seemed to be flying in the face of what the Realms was supposed to be. Krynn was a narrative, event-driven campaign world but I always saw Toril just as 'a world' where people had adventures. Politics and wars changed things over time, of course, but I never envisaged the Realms as this place where CRAZY HUGE STUFF was going on every ten minutes. My interest waned and I stopped buying new Realms products around 2005.
That said, I always kept my eye on developments in the setting, and was intrigued by what 4th Edition had to offer. When I finally got to see what they'd done, I wasn't too impressed. The Realms had been essentially destroyed. I understand the desire to 'start afresh' but I'd rather they'd done some kind of clean reboot, maybe simply moved on 100 years without nuking the continent or perhaps gone back in time and established a new setting at a point in Toril's history. With 4th Edition's FR material only comprising two rulebooks, a few adventures and some online articles, it wasn't exactly like there was going to be tons of new canon material to worry about either.
Still, WotC has the license and they made that decision. It's possible they will change it: A GRAND HISTORY OF THE REALMS (which I bought before realising it was lame) interestingly re-mentions the fact that the old ARCANE AGE products first raised, namely that the Sundering was a massive event which disrupted the Realms' fabric and created many new and sometimes conflicting timelines, some of which coexisted (they set this up so that PCs could time-travel back to Cormanthor or ancient Netheril and do what they liked without destroying the present-day setting). Given the Spellplague is an event on a par with the Sundering, even moreso since it was sparked by the death of Mystra (who, among other things, has partial responsibility for time), there is nothing stopping WotC or some future other company who buys the licence from them saying, "Well, 4E followed the timeline in which Mystra died and the Spellplague happened, 5E will now follow the one in which it didn't, hey presto, it's 1385 DR again, s'up?" As someone else mentioned, TRAVELLER did exactly this.
And if they don't, well I'm not entirely sure it's a major hindrance for those players who don't want to go to 4E. The 'canon' history of the Realms now effectively ends in 1385 and individual DMs can take the story of the Realms forward from that point. There is a finite number of game products out there to collect, there will be no more 'official' adventures, campaign materials or novels to interfere with where you want to take the setting and so on. Hell, the arrival of 4E has actually made me consider going and catching up on what I missed at the end of 3E.
I see this is as much an opportunity as it is a loss.
Watching tennis level of boring.[threadjack]
So, how about that Wimbledon men's final, this year? (I couldn't resist... ;-) )
[/threadjack]
Dragonchess, I for one am a huge tennis fan. Watching RF win against Roddick and stake his place in history was fantastic. Everyone should have watched that match. Glorious.
But 3rd Edition seemed to go after the Realms-shaking events in a big way, with the dragon rage thing, the return of the Netherese, Azoun IV's death, the Thayans turning into merchants, Bane showing up again etc all going way overboard, in my opinion. It seemed to move the emphasis away from a world you could adventure in to a world that was being blown up every five minutes. Sure, I could (and often did) ignore these things, but it still seemed to be flying in the face of what the Realms was supposed to be. Krynn was a narrative, event-driven campaign world but I always saw Toril just as 'a world' where people had adventures. Politics and wars changed things over time, of course, but I never envisaged the Realms as this place where CRAZY HUGE STUFF was going on every ten minutes. My interest waned and I stopped buying new Realms products around 2005..
Interestingly enough, that was when I was actually interested in the Realms somewhat. I love the Year of Rogue Dragons novels, and the priests series of novels touched on it a bit. I also enjoyed Thayans becoming merchants(moustachio twirling villains got old fast),and I also TRULY enjoyed the Undead series of novels. The return of the Netherese was no big thing for me however, nor was Azoun's death.
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A recent post made me wonder, what meta-events of the Forgotten Realms canon made it easier to adventure in the Realms?
--Initial Gray Box Setting? A world with dozens of playable areas is released commercially, with powerful NPCs all around but no specific focus on one place or another, although Shadowdale, Cormyr, and Waterdeep certainly were offered as great starting locales. Accessible to all and especially handy for a DM who doesn't want to have to conjure a world from whole cloth.
--Kara Tur, Al Qadim? Big new settings, far enough away to not directly impact anyone uninterested in being impacted.
--Throne of Bloodstone? Sure, Orcus was barred from the Realms but he was never a big part of the Realms anyway. A regional war that has no big impact outside its land and the 'canon' doesn't change matters much for the surrounding countries.
2nd Ed.
--Time of Troubles? Rule-set shift sure, and a few gods are killed but the gods affected are relatively minor for most DMs games. Bhaal, Bane and Myrkul all had their places and the flavor is definitely different with Cyric but the core player deities remained the same. The ToT didn't make it harder to role-play and it might even have spurred more high level play since the actions of mortals appear to have real impact on the realm of the gods.
--The Horde invades? Big regional war but no big impact on the world as a whole; heck I am still unsure if it is even necessary to acknowledge this event as so few things were different after the invasion as compared to before. Handy story if you want to use it but no big deal.
--Maztica discovered? Distant and different, certainly world shaking but, as written, so limited in its impact (Waterdeep, Amn, Baldur's Gate mostly) that if you wanted it, its there and if not, no worries.
--Cyrinishad? Cyric was already cuckoo for coco puffs, making him explicitly crazy doesn't seem like that big a deal. Kelemvor becoming god of the dead is a bigger shift than most seem to acknowledge owing to death's central place in the life of an adventurer and certainly this whole sequence involves some chaos. Still a earthquake and not a major trauma.
--Silver Marches established? Mulhorand invades Unther? No big deal here, creating a new country in a far-off corner adjusts the experience of adventuring up there but things remain the same everywhere else in the Realms; a war in another distant corner doesn't interefere with role-playing opportunities anywhere, possibly igniting interest in that corner of the world as ancient egyptian settings have been all too often treated as static and stable to the point of boredom.
3d ed.
--Return of Netherese magic? Big disruption here. Bringing back a floating city, introducing the Shadow Weave, restoring the phaerimm war to the main flow? Yeesh, this is a big move to dump in on the setting right in the middle of it all in Anauroch. Now, instead of being a great divider between Western Faerun and Eastern Faerun, we have a full active and very dynamic nation of exceedingly powerful mages to factor in. Sure, they offset that by neutering the Thayans and wrecking the Zhentarim, but I don't see that as an even trade. After all, the Zhents were essentially a conventional evil organization with both high and low level bad guys. The Thayans offered up a powerful, but conventional, magic tyrant society. The Shadovar though? They are alien in the extreme and with a floating multi-dimensional city, have the power to really disrupt expectations.
--Return of Bane? Just retconning away another impact of the Time of Troubles. Now the net result is the reduction of Myrkul to an artifact and the trading of Bhaal for Cyric, brutality for insanity. No big deal unless you think Gods shouldn't just be on the comic-book 'death go round'.
--Myth Drannor invaded by Drow? No big deal, unless the 'all drow serve Lolth' conceit is central. A good reason why ancient elven cities are abandoned though.
4th ed
--Spellplague? Absolute alteration an annihilation of the world. Maztica is consumed whole, Halruaa is obliterated, the Mulhorandi gods leave, and the entire civilization of Faerun is thrown back into a dark age. Nothing else comes even close to having as much of an impact on a DMs ability to set adventures in the Realms as this.
So, in 22 years we have had many 'big' events but only a few really impacted a DMs ability to run adventures wherever desired in the setting as laid out in 1987. From my side of the screen, only the return of Netheril and the Time of Troubles count as a Major happening with setting-wide impact. The Spellplague makes both of those seem like footnotes.
For such a major change, I want to see some major setting benefits. What were those benefits?
After all, the more minor changes offered benefits by adding depth to the setting.
-Maztica, Kara Tur, Al Qadim: new lands to adventure in
-Horde, Throne of Bloodstone, Silver Marches, Drow invasion of Cormanthyr, Mulhorandi war: new conflicts in different parts of Faerun, gives you some big picture stuff without wreaking havoc with the rest of the Realm (DM can opt in or opt out without being completely outside the overall flow)
Spellplague does what for a DM whose game has been in the Realms?
Hey! we're joking you know?
Didn't. You just can't be sure. Of course, it sounded awfully over the top. But this is the internet, it's harmless compared to what some people say - and those guys either mean every word of it or they like to bait flames.
And with the lack of body language and inflection and other stuff you don't get from text, it's never a bad idea to use emoticons.
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If you play 4e and/or the new "Realms" good for you, I hope you have fun, after all that is what it's about, but please let me gripe about something that bothers me.You're welcome to do just that.
Please allow us to express our opinions of the new Realms, even if that opinion is (heaven forbid) positive.
Why? Whenever my opinion about 4e is anything but ecstatic, a dozen people or more start insulting me and tell me to get the hell out of the 4e boards.
You're usually among them, though you don't insult.
So why the double standard?
I hardly see it as a double standard.
I think that those who visit the 4th Edition boards should be respectful and appreciate that there's no real constructive purpose served by popping in every once in a while to say "4th Edition sucks!" or the like. If you want to discuss certain aspects of the game, the reasons you don't like them, and how you think they might be improved in a constructive manner, that's totally cool. But I don't think unconstructive bashing is appropriate anywhere. I think it makes us look ugly and unable to control ourselves. If we're going to have a thread on the Forgotten Realms, I'd like to see it be constructive. That means discussing the topic, rather than throwing out extremes of opinions with a complete aversion to having those opinions challenged.
You know Scott, the topic is what they screwed up in the Realms, so saying they didn't have to do it, or that we can't stand what they did is discussing the topic. Now I'm sorry if saying anything negative about WoTC offends you, but their is no real "constructive" coversation to be had about this. I have no problems with 4e, it's not my game of choice, so take that for what it's worth.I don't know what your hoping to get here but I can promise that those of us who dislike what WoTC did to our favorite setting are not suddenly gonna get all warm and fuzzy towards them. I wasn't gonna post this but when I went to the mirror and said 4e,4e,4e, you didn't show up. (meant as a joke) You seem to take offense when anybody has anything negative to say about Wizards, that's your problem not ours, if you like the game and the new Realms, have at 'em man, but for cripes sake quit thinking that we all should jump on the band wagon.