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A friend of mine for over 25 years is an avid Forgotten Realms novels reader, such as those books written by by R.A. Salvatore. He stopped by last night and he summarized what wotc has done to the Forgotten Realms is nothing less than a rape, leaving what was once the realms to die in a ditch at the side of the road.
Yes. This is strong language. And shouldn't public outcry also be commensurate? My friend asked, "where does this leave people like R.A. Salvatore?"
I commented, "you know the realms stands as perhaps the largest, most detailed campaign setting ever, and a crowning achievement in rpg history."
My friend said, "you know, FOURTH EDITION seems to have been created for the benefit of wotc, NOT with the goal and benefit of bettering the game in mind. If they truly wanted to better the game for the players, they would have made incremental tweaks to the system we all know and play like PAIZO is doing. Instead they probably saw the Forgotten Realms continuity as a threat to FOURTH EDITION. And killing the realms was absolutely diabolical."
I thought about this and asked, "what do you think writers like R.A. Salvatore should do?"
He said, "Salvatore should say hey - I helped detail and popularize the Forgotten Realms world through my writing, I helped grow it into something incredible. Now you've killed it. You've basically cut the tip of my pen off."
He continued, "I wouldn't blame him if he stood up and said, 'NO, I am going to continue to write about the realms I know and love. You cannot force the art of litature to write about, and reconcile, this pen-and-paper-video-game you've created in FOURTH EDITION. It is incompatible with everything that was great about the realms."
I just sat there, thinking.... and thought whether others would agree with just how nasty and diabolical this event actually is? So would you agree? If so, should this act go quietly unnoticed?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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If I may paraphrase Ed Greenwood when asked about it at Origins, "I understand a lot of people are upset about the changes made to the Realms they've know for years. I burned that bridge while standing on it in 1986."
The language is over the top Pax. While I've not been raped, I've friends who have suevived it. It's a game. My Realms will never reflect the destruction.
First off, I usually tune out when people use a term like rape in an argument like that. It's sort of like comparing someone to a nazi for a relatively minor offense -- it makes me think that the person doesn't realize the scope and impact of the term they're using.
Second of all, one could argue that the Realms has been ruined many times over by both TSR and WotC, starting as far back as the Time of Troubles. This change, while major, is in keeping with the fact that the Realms goes through a major cataclysm every couple of months, or so it seems.
That said, I do think it's unfortunate that WotC is killing off many of the best NPCs in the Realms and dramatically changing things for the sake of a reboot. It seems that they're tailoring the setting to people who don't like it, rather than providing something awesome for those loyal fans who have made it one of the best-selling fantasy settings ever.
The fact that they changed their mind on advancing Eberron's timeline due to fan complaints but ignored Realms fans must be burning certain people up, as well.
WotC has a long and glorious history of killing campaign settings: Greyhawk, Dark Sun, Al-Quadim, Spelljammer, Ravenloft, Planescape (despite one of the most popular computer games ever), Dragonlance, and now the Realms. All despite the fact they are immensely popular.
The other problem is that 4th Edition is so different from what has gone before as to need its own setting, rather then trying to bend & warp an existing one to try to make it fit.
WotC has a long and glorious history of killing campaign settings: Greyhawk, Dark Sun, Al-Quadim, Spelljammer, Ravenloft, Planescape (despite one of the most popular computer games ever), Dragonlance, and now the Realms. All despite the fact they are immensely popular.
Just fyi ... Dragonlance has been alive and well with excellent material from Sovereign Press ...
... at least until WotC yanked the license to start 4e.
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WotC has a long and glorious history of killing campaign settings: Greyhawk, Dark Sun, Al-Quadim, Spelljammer, Ravenloft, Planescape (despite one of the most popular computer games ever), Dragonlance, and now the Realms. All despite the fact they are immensely popular.
The difference (aside from most of those "dying" under TSR, and NOT WotC), was that the majority of those settings died from lack of being published and not a total "re-envisioning"...
So while those settings silently drifted off into obscurity, the occasional Dragon article that updated this or that feature to 3.x was still possible and even kept the setting (somewhat) alive to those that still used those settings in their campaigns...
Heck, even the Times of Troubles left a recognizable Realms in its wake...
Oh well, I'll always have my Realms :-)
-That One Digitalelf Fellow-
First: [rant mode=ON] Pax, please, drop the "rape" metaphor. I cringe every time on another board I frequent when I see complaints about (insert name of cherished '70s/'80s comic book/cartoon here) being brought to the big screen couched as "(insert name of director/producer responsible) raped my childhood!" It does a major disservice, in my mind, to actual victims of rape. Can't everybody just find another metaphor? [rant mode=OFF]
That being said, the FR WotC has cobbled together is not one I'd want to play in. It seems like tye're trying to sell this "points of light" idea so much that they're suppressing another aspect of D&D -- the creativity of using the rules set in any kind of setting you desire. By arbitrarily turning FR into a "points of light" setting, they're basically sending a message that "points of light" is the ONLY way to play D&D, whether they intended to or not.
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He continued, "I wouldn't blame him if he stood up and said, 'NO, I am going to continue to write about the realms I know and love. You cannot force the art of litature to write about, and reconcile, this pen-and-paper-video-game you've created in FOURTH EDITION. It is incompatible with everything that was great about the realms."
I am betting the he doesn't have that option. If he doesn't want to write about the new FR's he probably can't write about them at all.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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It really seems that it would have made more sense for WotC to develop a new world/setting exclusive to 4e, rather than destroy old settings and/or warp them to fit a new ruleset.
The Points of Light theme would have been perfect for a new setting, allowing WotC to create new "Point Locations" in products as they came out.
But, what do I know.
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The question then being who owns the rights to a certain drow ranger...who love him or hate him is one of the biggest money spinners Wizards have..I have to say having skimmed the latest Drizzt book...out of intereast as the prologue and epilogue are set in the 'points of light era'...Drizzt seems to be as disillusioned as the rest of us
Hmm... Pax, you should point your friend to my rants at Candlekeep. They sum up what I (and a good many others) think of the changes.
Also I was asked to change some key wording in one of my rants from your "first" verb (with the addition of the word "gang") to merely abused.
For me, who'd love to feed people who commit such vile acts their own testicles, the verb you chose is (still) very fitting.
FR was the biggest jumbled, illogical mess of a campaign setting I've ever seen. Just plain horrible. Burning it down and trying to start over might be the best thing that ever happened to it.
Although if I was an FR fan I imagine I'd be pissed.
People should also keep in mind that the Faerun timeline was advanced because WOTC is starting the Living Forgotten Realms campaign later this year at GenCon. What Living Greyhawk was for 3rd edition, they hope LFR will be for 4th. They needed to advance the timeline so that the new administrators and authors of LFR (as well as future novel authors) would not have to memorize tons of FR canon, a lesson they probably learned from LG. Imo, this is a mistake, as playing in the time of the end of the current canon is what probably attracts a good many people to a living campaign. Living campaigns, theoretically, are supposed to allow players to have some impact on the future canon. By jumping forward hundreds of years, WOTC has created a rift between "old" FR canon and whatever canon LFR will create, if any (I doubt many of the results from Living Greyhawk will ever be incorporated into Greyhawk's canon on purpose unless someone who was once a LG triad or Circle member ever becomes the content manager for future Greyhawk materials, regardless of publisher).
Also, WOTC advanced the timeline to give them space to add in things like the dragonborn nation, make "fixes" to various FR nations, peoples, etc.
BTW, I agree with people who say that WOTC should have left Faerun alone and should have created a new world to be 4th edition's Core world (thank the FSM it wasn't Eberron, though). To me, there are three major classic canon D&D worlds: Oerth, Toril, and Krynn. I don't really much care what anyone does to Eberron, Mystara, Ravenloft, Dark Sun, etc., but I would prefer if they adapted new editions of D&D to the big three instead of adapting the big three to D&D.
So exactly what are these world shaking changes that have been made to FR?
Just curious.
The question then being who owns the rights to a certain drow ranger...
I doubt there's much question about it. WotC.
They needed to advance the timeline so that the new administrators and authors of LFR (as well as future novel authors) would not have to memorize tons of FR canon, a lesson they probably learned from LG.
Quite frankly, if the new admins and authors were unwilling to or felthat it was too much work to learn the canon, they probably shouldn't be appointed as the admin or author. Isn't that a bit like assigning someone to teach microbiology even if they don't want to study biology first? Seems like irresponsible business sense to me.
just 2cp
They needed to advance the timeline so that the new administrators and authors of LFR (as well as future novel authors) would not have to memorize tons of FR canon, a lesson they probably learned from LG.Quite frankly, if the new admins and authors were unwilling to or felthat it was too much work to learn the canon, they probably shouldn't be appointed as the admin or author. Isn't that a bit like assigning someone to teach microbiology even if they don't want to study biology first? Seems like irresponsible business sense to me.
just 2cp
I wholeheartedly agree. We can just be thankful that they (Wizards) do not plan to start a Living Medieval campaign, or they'd have to rewrite/trash that "campaign" setting because there is just too much stuff to learn and keep in mind...
I thought about this and asked, "what do you think writers like R.A. Salvatore should do?"
He said, "Salvatore should say hey - I helped detail and popularize the Forgotten Realms world through my writing, I helped grow it into something incredible. Now you've killed it. You've basically cut the tip of my pen off."
He continued, "I wouldn't blame him if he stood up and said, 'NO, I am going to continue to write about the realms I know and love. You cannot force the art of litature to write about, and reconcile, this pen-and-paper-video-game you've created in FOURTH EDITION. It is incompatible with everything that was great about the realms."
It looks like Salvatore is continuing to write Forgotten Realm books even with the new changes. His The Stone of Tymora series is coming out this year. So I guess no revolt from Salvatore.
I wholeheartedly agree. We can just be thankful that they (Wizards) do not plan to start a Living Medieval campaign, or they'd have to rewrite/trash that "campaign" setting because there is just too much stuff to learn and keep in mind...
If you really want to see a start to that revision, check out the Polearm thread that's been goin for a while
;-)
The Forgotten Realms was asking for it. Look how they were dressed.
The Forgotten Realms was asking for it. Look how they were dressed.
I know. What were they thinking with those clashing, elaborate priest outfits?
I've renamed the thread title. I don't think we want "rape and murder" on the front page of paizo.com.
How about unwanted sexual advances and assault threats?
I've renamed the thread title. I don't think we want "rape and murder" on the front page of paizo.com.
Awww... but how will we attract all those people who already think we're insane devil-worshipers?
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I've renamed the thread title. I don't think we want "rape and murder" on the front page of paizo.com.How about unwanted sexual advances and assault threats?
The Unwanted Sexual Advances and Assault Threats of the Forgotten Realms?
That sounds like the Forgotten Realms are threatening to assault somebody.
The Unwanted Sexual Advances and Assault Threats of the Forgotten Realms?That sounds like the Forgotten Realms are threatening to assault somebody.
As I understand it, that may be exactly what's happening.
;-)
Mystra did come on to me.
I've renamed the thread title. I don't think we want "rape and murder" on the front page of paizo.com.
Thank you Gary.
To the OP, I choose to vote with my dollar, buy Pathfinder instead of 4E.
They needed to advance the timeline so that the new administrators and authors of LFR (as well as future novel authors) would not have to memorize tons of FR canon, a lesson they probably learned from LG.Quite frankly, if the new admins and authors were unwilling to or felthat it was too much work to learn the canon, they probably shouldn't be appointed as the admin or author. Isn't that a bit like assigning someone to teach microbiology even if they don't want to study biology first? Seems like irresponsible business sense to me.
just 2cp
In theory I agree, if being an LFR admin/author was a full-time paid research position (imagine going to university to earn a degree in Realmslore with a focus on Thayan Politican Science just so you could land a gig at WOTC writing for FR). However, the reality is that there is far too much canon material to expect an UNPAID author/admin, who is only producing 4 mods a year for his region, to memorize all the FR canon. Even narrowing it down to just the areas specific to their region would take a year of research (except for the "new" regions, like the dragonborn area). As most (and probably all) of these people have real-world jobs and families to occupy their time (I know that Konrad and Travis do, two of the admins for the TX/OK/etc. region), it's simply not possible. Also, canonphiles do not always make the best admins or authors.
No, at most the admins/authors should have a working knowledge of FR canon. More importantly, they should know where to look to get more information (products from past editions of the games, canon resources online, etc. In LG, for the Bandit Kingdoms, the old _Iuz the Evil_ sourcebook was invaluable, but that didn't mean that I had it memorized). Honestly, I'd guess that about 80-90% of the LG players that I met had very little Greyhawk canon knowledge prior to playing LG. If my predecessors had trotted out Iuzian priests in purple robes in year 1 of LG, I doubt few players would have blurted out, "But they are supposed to be in white bloodstained robes!" at the gaming table. Hence, the need to get canon 100% right is pretty small. The goal, imo, should be to get the overall _feel_ for the region correct and let the little details get sorted out over time. As time goes by, the admins and authors will do more and more research about their region, which _should_ improve the "canon-ness" of their mods.
Imo, the best that the new LFR staff could have hoped for re: canon research would have been for WOTC to publish a Living FR Gazateer prior to the start of the campaign that summarizes each region's important elements (similar to the Living Greyhawk Gazateer but more thorough. In a perfect gamer world, the LFR admins would be full-time paid employess who were given two years to write a gazateer entry for their regions prior to the start of the campaign. However, their salaries would have been prohibitively expensive to WOTC [someone ask the RPGA people at WOTC how much they make and you'll see what I mean]). While such a new FR sourcebook is forthcoming, I imagine that writing one with nearly a clean slate (due to the timeline advancement) was seen as far less arduous/costly than writing one that focused heavily on canon material and picked up where the last FR products (be they novels or modules) left off. After all, I bet that WOTC isn't assuming that every LFR player will know FR canon. Now, they don't really even have to worry about it.
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I imagine we will soon see some Realmsrules springing up; houserules for FR players/DMs who want to play 4th Edition, but don't want to destroy the parts they like. Things like converted NPCs, no dragonborn, etc.
Quick question, since I don't have any interest in picking up 4th Edition realms material, but are the changing the pantheon AGAIN?
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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A friend of mine for over 25 years is an avid Forgotten Realms novels reader, such as those books written by by R.A. Salvatore.
Riiiiiiight. Your friend is the big R.A. Salvatore fan. Sure he is. And my friend is a big Bella Sara fan. Uh-huh... ;-)
While I can't get behind all the points in your post, I do heartily agree that what was done to FR was terrible. That being said, there was a long thread about the topic a few months ago, and I asked if anybody was interested in the Realms as a result of the changes. To my surprise, a handful of people said they were. I don't know if such people are a tiny minority, a vast majority, or somewhere in between, but I do know that the changes brought my interest in the Realms down to zero. The Realms transition could have been an opportunity to show that despite the radical changes to the game engine, the same types of stories could be told with 4e as could be told with 3e. The way they clumsily decimated the Realms provided evidence of the opposite: 4e is so different from prior editions that you need to make radical changes to make a pre-4e campaign setting work in the 4e rules set.
It's too bad that this squandered opportunity came at such a high cost.
But hey, let's not dig that grave too deep. There's always the reboot!
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Quick question, since I don't have any interest in picking up 4th Edition realms material, but are the changing the pantheon AGAIN?
Oh yeah, Mystra was one of them...
There are like three (online) Dragon articles that came out pre 4e launch entitled "Countdown to the Realms" that describe the changes made. Do a quick search of the Wizards web site and you'll find them...
-That One Digitalelf Fellow-
And my friend is a big Bella Sara fan.
There are two Bella Sara fans?
I thought the more controversial point was that I had a friend.And my friend is a big Bella Sara fan.There are two Bella Sara fans?
Everyone knows you have a friend. He's just wreathed in flames and lives underground, and he always seems to be asking for souls. ;)
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Quick question, since I don't have any interest in picking up 4th Edition realms material, but are the changing the pantheon AGAIN?Oh yeah, Mystra was one of them...
There are like three (online) Dragon articles that came out pre 4e launch entitled "Countdown to the Realms" that describe the changes made. Do a quick search of the Wizards web site and you'll find them...
-That One Digitalelf Fellow-
Oh yeah, I had heard about Mystra. That said, I never liked her preachy "I have seven people who can kill you at will" attitude. Plus, I am a huge fan of Cyric. So that didn't bother me too much - the consequences of it did.
The explanation for the loss of the Shadowweave is just lame.
Not to mention, this whole debacle is responsible for the death of Halastar.
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I strongly agree that WOTC should have conceived of a new world for their 'points of light' default setting for 4th Edition.
Now, instead of selecting when in the chronology of the Realms you want to set your campaign there is an arbitrary line in the chronology for either the Forgotten Realms or the Four-gotten Realms. All the fun a DM could have using source material stretching back to late AD&D first edition is pointless as it is canon now that the way the Realms work after the Weave is torn off Toril is completely different.
Even worse, Maztica is gone completely and it is replaced by an entire continent whose origin has no place in the sweep of Toril, at least after the Age of Giants and Dragons (-25000 DR). If anything, they could have put 4th Edition into that distant past and done less violence to the general direction of the campaign world. Now that I think of it, that would really have given meaning to the term 'Forgotten Realms'.
Consider: The default setting of D&D 4 is Abeir-Toril of 26,000 years in the past. Civilizations as advanced as the 3.5 era but without any of the baggage of the Zhentarim, Cormyr, or anything else. This era, potentially 5000 years long (or more depending on how much you trust the scribes at that vast distance of age) really was an era of 'points of light' where great and epic challenges await the small and puny mortal races.
Wow, a way to set 4th Edition in the Forgotten Realms that doesn't
a) destroy existing campaigns completely
b) force conversion into an entirely new world when not desired
c) gives life to the term 'Forgotten Realms'
and
d) doesn't obliterate whole nations and continents just for the sake of clearing some globe space.
Does anyone know if the folks at WOTC considered going back in time rather than forward for their FR 4th Ed setting?
That being said, the FR WotC has cobbled together is not one I'd want to play in. It seems like tye're trying to sell this "points of light" idea so much that they're suppressing another aspect of D&D -- the creativity of using the rules set in any kind of setting you desire. By arbitrarily turning FR into a "points of light" setting, they're basically sending a message that "points of light" is the ONLY way to play D&D, whether they intended to or not.
I think that this is the real problem with what was done. If WoTC had instead converted the realms mostly as is. (Yes that does mean providing rules for such things as Gnomes) it would have provided a counter example of their "Points Of Light" concept.
The value being that it would show that D&D 4th is - despite the many mechanical changes - still "D&D" for all of us Grognards out there.
FR was the biggest jumbled, illogical mess of a campaign setting I've ever seen.
Agreed, but I appreciate the rabid following it had. I'm a fan of the Drow and they absolutely SCREWED Elistraee (sp?). That's a bunch of bunk.
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I'm a fan of the Drow and they absolutely SCREWED Elistraee (sp?). That's a bunch of bunk.
Elistraee will always have a home in my homebrew at least.
After seeing the complaints from FR fans going unheeded, I'm absolutely terrified for Planescape. I'd honestly prefer it remain unsupported by WotC(and thus still supported by Planewalker.com) than have it re-envisioned square-peg-in-circle-hole style. Those are certainly not my tieflings good sir!
The way i see it, what happens to the Forgotten Realms is actually a great opportunity for a campaign :
Assemble a group of heroes. Or a group of villains.
Send them on an epic quest, to discover and decrypt some mysterious scriptures, prophecies of an eventual cataclysmic future for Toril, its people, mystic and cosmic integrity.
In a way similar to the Crisis of the Avatars series.
If the heroes succeed in time, they can discover the dark future of Toril, and maybe prevent it, thus saving Mystra and Toril from the Spellplague.
If they fail, or succeed as villains, then Mystra is doomed, and you can go on with the Spellplague.
As a matter of fact, this is a campaign that i intend to run personally.
But feel free to us it :)
Agreed, but I appreciate the rabid following it had. I'm a fan of the Drow and they absolutely SCREWED Elistraee (sp?). That's a bunch of bunk.
Yeah, I appreciate the following as well. Ironically, I'm more apt to give it a look given what they've done to it.
I don't know much about Elistraee. What happened there?
Agreed, but I appreciate the rabid following it had. I'm a fan of the Drow and they absolutely SCREWED Elistraee (sp?). That's a bunch of bunk.
Yeah, I appreciate the following as well. Ironically, I'm more apt to give it a look given what they've done to it.
I don't know much about Elistraee. What happened there?
To answer your question:
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The way i see it, what happens to the Forgotten Realms is actually a great opportunity for a campaign :
Assemble a group of heroes. Or a group of villains.
Send them on an epic quest, to discover and decrypt some mysterious scriptures, prophecies of an eventual cataclysmic future for Toril, its people, mystic and cosmic integrity.
In a way similar to the Crisis of the Avatars series.
If the heroes succeed in time, they can discover the dark future of Toril, and maybe prevent it, thus saving Mystra and Toril from the Spellplague.
If they fail, or succeed as villains, then Mystra is doomed, and you can go on with the Spellplague.As a matter of fact, this is a campaign that i intend to run personally.
But feel free to us it :)
Highly recommend employing Expedition to Undermountain. It has entire sections devoted to how the PCs can follow in Halastar's footsteps and stop the spellplague from occuring.
I don't know much about Elistraee. What happened there?
Not sure, but I believe that was a reference to the Lady Penitent series. I don't want to spoil anything, but a google/wiki search should turn up the results.
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I strongly agree that WOTC should have conceived of a new world for their 'points of light' default setting for 4th Edition.
And that's one of the things that bugs me. I'm not nearly as het up about the current Realms-carnage, since I was one of those poor fools who lost his cherry during the Time of Trouble and moved on to settings that weren't going to be chopped to bits in service to some lame novel-centric metaplot.
And yet, the success of Eberron shows that there *is* plenty of room in the market for new, fresh faces. They didn't *need* to mangle the Realms (or Greyhawk, or Al-Qadim, or whatever) to fit the new 4E mechanics, they could have created a shiny new world *specifically built to showcase 4E's strong points.*
All they've done, again, to my utter amazement at their lack of marketing savvy, is piss off yet more fans with this insane decision to mutilate one of their cash cows.
We know they have the talent pool to create exciting new worlds. We know they have the phone numbers they would need to call up imaginative and creative sorts like Keith Baker or Monte Cook and ask them to help design a shiny new world to showcase the new rules. We know they have purchased several setting ideas left over from the setting-search contest that gave us Eberron *just lying around.*
Meh. I suppose they'll never get their paws on the Scarred Lands setting, so that's safe at least.