I admit that I don't know how much of a say Mr. Greenwood had, only that he deserves a part of the blame.
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Its so very nice to commiserate the destruction of the forgotten realms with company who cares. What a dirty, rotten, shame. We should never forget this slap in the gaming community's face.
Yes. It was a dark day when I learned about the Realms. The removal of pdf's was another dark day. I once loved WOTC very much, but our divorce has been bitter.
It's amazing how taking a young, beautiful lover who meets all your needs can relieve all feelings of bitterness and immerse you in blissful forgetfulness...
I admit that I don't know how much of a say Mr. Greenwood had, only that he deserves a part of the blame.
Well I think he tried to save what he could..but he was not asked for impute, he was not asked to help shape the story he was not asked anything. In fact that one podcast where the design team said they had no real knowledge of the realms and had never liked it and kept saying how they didn't know what stuff meant or why it was called that
I kept asking myself why the hell don't they ask ed?
It's that ol' black magic...
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I admit that I don't know how much of a say Mr. Greenwood had, only that he deserves a part of the blame.
They went to Ed Greenwood during Gencon 2005, and told him this is what was going to happen. Ed had no say in it. He got onboard to try and make the changes not as extreme. So put the Blamethrower away.
They went to Ed Greenwood during Gencon 2005, and told him this is what was going to happen. Ed had no say in it. He got onboard to try and make the changes not as extreme. So put the Blamethrower away.
But he was onboard... That's a lot different than saying this isn't FR and I want no part of it.
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I'm still bitter over all this stuff. Changing the edition to a system I don't like is one thing and it's something I can just shrug off, no biggy. What they did to the Realms ... how they went about it ... now THAT is what divorced me.
I used to love reading the novels but I've divorced myself wholy from the setting now.
... at least on the plus side I've got Golarion now; a great world full of crazy cool stuff. Gnomes that don't suck, elves that look cool, and Lavender Lil.
... good times. Now they just need a Novel line >_>
*hugs his 3e/3.5e FR sourcebooks* Spellplague never happened. Mystra was never killed by Cyric. It's a delusion of Cyric and he's spreading it through a foul cabal of arcane casters with a lair with a view.
I own Grand History of the Realms but lets just say if my campaign ever approaches the end of the that timeline, the last couple years will see revision.
Ed Greenwood wasn't given Waterdeep, or Cormyr, or the Dalelands, or Silverymoon or any other part of the Realms that he was personally famous for fleshing out.
He was given a continent from "Returned Abeir," i.e. the other world that the design team had already decided to merge into Toril. How much damage control can you really do once they give you a part of the world that never existed before?
But he was onboard... That's a lot different than saying this isn't FR and I want no part of it.
I don't have the time or energy to look it up, but on Candlekeep Ed essentially said that he would not have done what was done to the Realms, and that "his" gods wouldn't act the way they were described as having acted, but that WOTC owns the rights to make the decisions about the setting, and he'd rather have had a hand in things, however small, than to let his creation face such major changes with no chance to influence them at all.
And then once he gets on the team, they move him from writing about Waterdeep to writing about a section of the Realms that never existed before. I don't know the full details, and likely none of us on these boards do, but you can't help but think that it amounted to wanted to have Ed Greenwood's name on the book while minimizing his impact on the "traditional" regions of the Realms.
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I fully believe that the Designers sought to remove as much of Ed from the Realms as possible. Then they give him his own little place in Returned Abeir. Those guys are not worthy to tie his shoelaces. Chris Perkins said in a podcast that he takes full resonsiblity for the current state of the Realms. That was the Podcast where they had the "Richard Baker must be stopped" sign in the background. It was a youtube vid. Those were the days
a continent from "Returned Abeir," i.e. the other world that the design team had already decided to merge into Toril.
WTF? They're doing this on purpose, right? Mere incompetence cannot account for all of it.
It's amazing how taking a young, beautiful lover who meets all your needs can relieve all feelings of bitterness and immerse you in blissful forgetfulness...
Oh yes! And Pathfinder helps, too.
Sorry, but if Mr. Greenwood had any plans for the Realms they'd be in the 4E version. He's listed as a designer.
Yeah right. wizards is known for letting people run free with their stuff even if it doesn't fit into their plans. The're all about freedom of choice. That's why they're cramming the crappy "points of light" BS down their customers' throats and destroy worlds to get them in line with that nonsense.
Ed might have designed a little bit, but if they had given him any power over the changes, he'd have needed about three dozen black markers to get rid of the stuff he didn't like.
I pity the guy. He has to watch his brainchild being raped and mutilated and he cannot do a thing about it.
As bad as it was for us fans, it must have been a thousand times worse for him.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Ed Greenwood was [assigned] a continent from "Returned Abeir," i.e. the other world that the design team had already decided to merge into Toril. How much damage control can you really do once they give you a part of the world that never existed before?
Quite a bit, actually, and a good move on the part of the Senior Designers. Allowing Ed's voice to come through should have helped make Abeir feel more like the Forgotten Realms and less like Somebody Else's Campaign and a Planescape Accident.
I've had professional contact with Ed twice, once after I'd built on the feel of "ancient Chessenta" and the other time after I edited his manuscript for "Shadowdale", the first chapter in the AD&D 1st-2nd-Edition transition series of modules. In both cases, he was very encouraging, a real gentleman, and everything you'd want in a professional. I'm sure he approached the Abeir assignment with the same attitude.
Quite a bit, actually, and a good move on the part of the Senior Designers. Allowing Ed's voice to come through should have helped make Abeir feel more like the Forgotten Realms and less like Somebody Else's Campaign and a Planescape Accident.
I've had professional contact with Ed twice, once after I'd built on the feel of "ancient Chessenta" and the other time after I edited his manuscript for "Shadowdale", the first chapter in the AD&D 1st-2nd-Edition transition series of modules. In both cases, he was very encouraging, a real gentleman, and everything you'd want in a professional. I'm sure he approached the Abeir assignment with the same attitude.
You make a good point, and its my fault for not clarifying what I meant earlier.
WOTC probably did bring in some older fans of FR by having Ed Greenwood on this project, and I know that I've heard several people say that they wanted to see his take on the new region he was assigned.
The damage control I was referring to was not to sales or the credibility of WOTC, but to the actual themes and feel of the campaign setting, as a whole, which can't really be managed from writing one entry on one new region.
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We adapt all of Paizo's APs to fit into the Realms.Really? I like to hear where you set the various adventures. (On a related note, I'm thinking of running an Age of Worms campaign either in the Forgotten Realms or Golarion. Your thoughts?).
I planned to run the Runelords-AP in the Silver Marches (and still consider it to be the easiest way to run it in the Realms), but the group for which I run it now had already begun to play in Tethyr and after some reading I decided to go with it
Just in case, the rest in spoilers:
Thassilon will be the Shoon Empire, Kharzoug one of the Shoon Emperors (probably Shoon VII.). It's the first time I run a game in the Tethyr/Amn region so I'll have to do a bit of research but as my players aren't no experts as far as the Realms are concerned I guess I can afford any inconsistencies.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Chris, do you have any Tales of the Vortex to tell? Do you remember who thought it would be a good idea to get rid of Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul after just two years?
I never knew: I as a free-lance editor, trying to shoehorn Ed's manuscript --including 6 new monsters, a new city, some important NPCs, and as much art as we could fit-- into a 48-page adventure, while the overall plot was still not settled.
(Here's a hint to would-be editors: almost every D&D writer turns in a manuscript with about twice as many adjectives as sentences need.)
In retrospect, the entire series was predicated on a questionable assumption: if the game system changes, there has to be an in-world explanation. I think that has some aspects of game design backwards: in the 1980's, the game mechanics were understood as a simulation: they were supposed to represent a game world, rather than drive it. There didn't need to be an explicit change from "clerics" to "priests", or a reason that all the "monks" vanished. TSR only needed to say that 2nd Edition is a slightly different, and better, way of representing the 'actual' setting that 'Elminster reveals to Ed'.
But I presume that the change in pantheons was designed to give justification for the change in mechanics. Cyric would no longer like to empower people exactly as Bhaal did.
It is pretty funny, in retrospect, to see how essentially minor a lot of the changes to the game system were, and yet TSR felt the need to have a major event to explain why X class was "gone" or why Z spell was 3rd level instead of 2nd level.
I though it was even stranger considering the fact that the FRA hardcover even mentioned that it wasn't a major issue to "grandfather" in characters that had classes that didn't exist in the 2E rules because they should work relatively well in the new framework.
I also thought it was strange that TSR seemed to want to specifically explain why there were no more assassins, but yet barbarians and cavaliers, well, they are just fighters or rangers now . . . no godly death needed to explain it (so, um, why aren't assassins just rogues now?)
I actually kind of wondered if killing Torm was suppose to be some kind of explanation of the cavalier changes that no one every fully fleshed out and just ended up on the cutting room floor (and I realize that not every cavalier followed Torm, but not every assassin followed Bhaal either).
(Its also kind of interesting that people forget that Fate of Istus attempted to do the same "in game" explanation of mechanics in the World of Greyhawk that the Time of Troubles did in Faerun)
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He has to watch his brainchild being raped and mutilated and he cannot do a thing about it.
As bad as it was for us fans, it must have been a thousand times worse for him.
... I am reminded of the day I started this thread. I think it was Mike McArtor who emailed me to say he had changed the name of it to "The Destruction of The Forgotten Realms."
I think we share the same sentiment on this, KaeYoss. This thread was originally named, "The Rape and Murder of the Forgotten Realms."
Man, I was so upset about this. I was sick to my gut about the senseless changes. I remember wondering, "have they really... run...out...of...imagination, that they had to piss on one of the best campaign settings ever made?"
I've worked through some of these feelings by now. But I will never forget how Ed's work, his body of work, this coherent and brilliant setting was destroyed. And honestly, its not necessarily the destruction that hurts the most - its mostly the grossly incoherent and inarticulate way it was handled.
I as well
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Everytime I feel the same way (and you can bet I do) I go over to Candlekeep and read the wise words from Ed regarding 4E FR.
I'll probably never be able to forgive WotC what they've done to the Realms and I'll never voluntarily play in the "New Realms". But I'll try my best to honor Ed in following his advice.
I'll never voluntarily play in the "New Realms".
Me neither, and I can't imagine how anyone could force me to play it involuntarily. Threats of excessive violence? I'd welcome that, has to be better than the alternative.
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I'll never voluntarily play in the "New Realms".Me neither, and I can't imagine how anyone could force me to play it involuntarily. Threats of excessive violence? I'd welcome that, has to be better than the alternative.
It's not all that bad actually. They might have destroyed a lot of what made it classic, fantastic realms and had a soap opera with the gods, but think of all the awesome things they added like:
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For me it would probably be sufficient if the other players of my group would want to play in it. I sure hope they'll never suggest to do so but I consider friends to be more important than settings so I wouldn't leave the goup because of that. I'd never run it for them, but we're a group af DMs so I'm not the only one who has something to say about it.
So no violence needed.
It's not all that bad actually. They might have destroyed a lot of what made it classic, fantastic realms and had a soap opera with the gods, but think of all the awesome things they added like:
I realize you're trying to be funny and sarcastic, but you've inadvertently made a great point. It's what they subtracted that made the changes so exciting. :)
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It's not all that bad actually. They might have destroyed a lot of what made it classic, fantastic realms and had a soap opera with the gods, but think of all the awesome things they added like:I realize you're trying to be funny and sarcastic, but you've inadvertently made a great point. It's what they subtracted that made the changes so exciting. :)
... is it sad I'm only ever insightful by accident? O_o ... I feel sad about it.
Did Eberron displace FR in sales?
Well I have just assumed...as a DM who is running a realms campaign currently...and for the last 4 years...that my players were gonna be the ones who alter the Realms...not WOTC.... So the blasting that the realms has taken with 4th ed are moot for my campaign... heck...with my group keeping them on track to finish a story arc without them altering it to an almost unrecognizable form... I have just decided to wrap up this campaign without adding changes at tail end to alter the world to fit 4thview... It seems in my campaign Mystra might bite the dust but it will be at Shars hands if it happens...
I started allowing Dragonborn in my campaign some time before 4thview became common knowledge so I don't need any help bringing them around anyway...
So thus I say that the Realms are only dead to those who NEED someone else to plot the path of the world...if I choose to use the realms again... I will alter based on my campaigns...with the 4thview that WOTC has thrust upon us...
So...am I unhappy with the changes to the realms... somewhat.... but I never used ANYTHING that wWOTC produced that I didn't feel fit in my campaign... Yes it would have been nice if the corporate talking heads had listened to the FAns, the writers and the creators from day one... but its a done deal and a dead horse now... Once you buy the book or the box...the setting is YOURS...DO WITH IT AS THOUGH WILT>>>WITH HARM TO NONE...but your own players fragile minds and bodies...
They have butchered a bit in eberron, the plane set up forcing in dragon born allowing any race to have any mark are the ones I know of
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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They have butchered a bit in eberron, the plane set up forcing in dragon born allowing any race to have any mark are the ones I know of
Well forcing the dragonborn in is nothing new. I agree the changes to the marks are the most dramatic. (and irritating)
I read Queen of Stone, and couldn't tell if it was 3rd, 4th or some hybred of game mechanics (The Medusa's gaze acted like 3.x as they went to stone instantly, but Thorn seemed to have some 4.x rituals)
I consider friends to be more important than settings
Friends don't make friends play 4gotten realms.
It's not all that bad actually. They might have destroyed a lot of what made it classic, fantastic realms and had a soap opera with the gods, but think of all the awesome things they added like:
Thank you for your comprehensive list. It's longer than I'd have expected.
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Friends don't make friends play 4gotten realms.
Friends also don't force their own opinions on their friends so this argument goes both ways.
But to each his own. I can even understand why some people prefer the 4E realms to the old ones. I would have prefered if they had created a new setting for those people (namely their PoL-Setting) and let the Realms be as it was before the Spellplague. In this case they probably had gotten my money for both settings. They didn't and prefered to lose a customer instead.
Which makes me actually sad more than angry.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Not that I know of, but it's Eberron's turn in the cycle.
Not that I'm willing to shell out money to find out, but: where do tieflings come from, in the Eberron cosmology?
From the PG
Tieflings mostly come from a Sarlonan nation of Ohr Kaluun, driven out by the Inspired.Oh, and apparently the Kalshtar are all insane.
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So thus I say that the Realms are only dead to those who NEED someone else to plot the path of the world
That would probably be me. What the continuing timeline did for me was that I got regular updates on the regions I didn't play in or we had moved from to another nation. It basically allowed me to concentrate on the actual action while giving me the opportunity to present my players a living, dynamic world. I simply have not the time to do so on my own and with the Realms going Fast Forward I lose this big advantage the setting held for me
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Meaning what? Like Vampire's Malkavians?
Oh, and apparently the Kalshtar are all insane.
Gods I hope not.
But they do seem to encourage Malkavian like antics from players.
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The Annoying thing is from what I can tell from the Eberron previews and what I've heard and seen on Forums. They haven't really changed Eberron that much which raises the question of why they had to go to such extreme measures and blow up the realms
Two things about 4e and the realms:
A lot of people who like 4e HATED D&D before the new edition (I'm getting this from message board posts and what not, so it isn't scientific or anything).
The people who designed the 4e Realms, for the most part, HATED the Forgotten Realms (this comes from reading WotC designer blogs, Wizard's web page and what not, so I'm going to go out on a limb and say this isn't an opinion). A lot people who like the 4e Realms HATED the old Realms (this, again, comes from reading various forums, so, you know, grain of salt and all).
So, Kevin, what we have here is a campaign setting updated by people who hated what came before for people who hated what came before. If I had to guess, mostly younger people (on both sides of the equation) who felt like outsiders since they weren't there to watch the Realms grow organically from the beginning.
Eberron, on the other hand, is all of what, five or six years old? Nothing to miss there. No forty years of lore to absorb.
Of course, if I ever run an Eberron 4e game (unlikely, but who knows), Dragonborn will be a hunted race, hiding from the irate and offended dragons who ABHOR non "true" dragon critters (as per 3x Eberron canon).
:)
Two things about 4e and the realms:
A lot of people who like 4e HATED D&D before the new edition (I'm getting this from message board posts and what not, so it isn't scientific or anything).
The people who designed the 4e Realms, for the most part, HATED the Forgotten Realms (this comes from reading WotC designer blogs, Wizard's web page and what not, so I'm going to go out on a limb and say this isn't an opinion). A lot people who like the 4e Realms HATED the old Realms (this, again, comes from reading various forums, so, you know, grain of salt and all).
So, Kevin, what we have here is a campaign setting updated by people who hated what came before for people who hated what came before. If I had to guess, mostly younger people (on both sides of the equation) who felt like outsiders since they weren't there to watch the Realms grow organically from the beginning.
While I might not agree with all your suppositions (I DM a 4E group and play in a 3.5 group and like both editions... and I'm by no means a younger player as I've been playing since the 1E days), I do think you touched on one of the things the 4E Realms designers were probably trying to achieve. That is, trying to bring new players to the Realms that hadn't been there since the beginning to watch them grow organically.
Personally, as a long-time D&D player who never really got into the Realms, they didn't achieve this aim as far as I'm concerned, as I'm not that interested in the 4E Realms either, but that could just be me.
I have a theory about why the Realms were first to get the edition change treatment. IMO, WotC needed to get a campaign setting released as soon as possible after the release of the new edition, and as the first setting release for the new edition it would have to sell well (by whatever definition WotC/Hasbro use to measure the success/failure of a release). In this context, FR was probably considered a "safe" option for a first release as it was a known quantity with a fairly solid fanbase.
Unfortunately, it is probably the one setting that needed the most work to make "4E compatible" and a lot of the things that people like about the Realms are different from the "core" implied setting used to define 4E's mechanics (PC power level relative to the world around them, level of deity involvement in day-to-day affairs, etc). Where I think the designers erred is not in taking a 100 year jump in the timeline, but rather in trying to make the Realms fit the "core assumptions" of the 4E world (refer to pg 150 of the 4E DMG for a list of these). I think they should have instead looked at how to make the mechanics support a 4E realms that used a different set of assumptions from those used in the "default" game.
Admittedly, I have no idea how much extra work this might have required or what time constraints the designers were working under when producing the 4E Realms. I just think that this was a missed opportunity to demonstrate how 4E's mechanics can show some flexibility when handling different settings.