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I've never sat at a table that ever told a LGBT person they couldn't play. But if you feel that the only way for you to exist in this world is by having Paizo include LGBT issues in their games than I think the problem is not with gaming, but with your anger at the real world.
I doubt it's just the issue of being told they can't sit at the table and play (though that's been a serious issue for female gamers). After all, it's hard to tell someone is LGBT when they approach the table. But creating an atmosphere in which a player feels like they aren't excluded from the hobby can be important. I've seen a similar complaint from African-American players. Most of the depictions in game art are of Caucasian characters and it's harder to feel welcome into the hobby when none of the art seems to acknowledge the existence of characters like them. Is it similarly problematic to appeal to African-American players by including black characters? How about appealing to female players by showing female characters? If not, then what's the problem with another step and including LGBT characters?
And if it is problematic to include black and female characters, what is it about the gamer art that requires it to be Caucasian and male?
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LGBT people exist.
Their mere existence is not some political agenda.
We can safely assume that LGBT people exist in our fantasy worlds (including Golarion) in roughly the same proportions as they exist in our world.
Acknowledging their existence is not 'pushing a political agenda' any more than acknowledging the existence of gravity is pushing some kind of scientific agenda.
3.5 Loyalist doesn't think it's appropriate to import the modern day trans* 'subculture' into Golarion, nor to import historical trans* subcultures.
Er...okay. But no-one is trying to.
Paizo aren't trying to import any 'subculture', nor even trying to create any such subculture native to Golarion. They just acknowledge the existence of LGB and, indeed, T people.
This is not an 'agenda', political or otherwise. It's just trying to create a realistic world, complete with gravity, politics and the normal proportions of LGBT people.
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Tanith T,
I've never sat at a table that ever told a LGBT person they couldn't play. But if you feel that the only way for you to exist in this world is by having Paizo include LGBT issues in their games than I think the problem is not with gaming, but with your anger at the real world. I do hope that the inclusion of the issue is Paizo's products makes for a better gaming experience for you.
Paizo is not "including LGBT issues." Paizo is including LGBT NPCs.
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1.) This is a thread for Homosexuality and LGBTQI characters in Golarion, not the real world. We have threads in the Off-Topic Forums regarding real-life issues—please use it.
2.) We will not tolerate posters acting rudely towards each other. At all. From either side of an issue. If you have a problem with a post, flag it and move on, and let us (the moderators) deal with it.
3.) As the GM, you have the ultimate right to say what goes in your campaign and to alter it as you see fit for your game and your players. Your GM fiat does not extend to other people's games or their interpretation of the setting.
4.) Rule Zero, aka Wheaton's Law—Don't be a jerk. This website is about gaming and having good times with friends in a shared creative, collaborative, storytelling experience. Don't belittle other peoples' good times, and stay positive. Agree to disagree, and learn to walk away from the keyboard.
Thread unlocked. Please keep it on topic and civil.
Root Beer jellybeans FTW
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Root Beer jellybeans FTW
Root Beer + Toasted Marshmallow Jelly Bellys = delicious.
Root Beer + Toasted Marshmallow Jelly Bellys = delicious.Root Beer jellybeans FTW
Your words + my mind = esplode
I would imagine that in Brevory, Taldor, Cheliax, Ustalav would not mind Homosexuality. I imagine that in the rural parts of these realms a homosexual relationship means that in the future less mouths to feed, though of course without children, though with magic I am sure homosexual couples could a find a way to have children; then that will mean less people to work on the farms.
For the nobles or others that are considered about lineage, inheritance and things like that then the marriages would be mainly straight, of course most nobles tend to marry for politics not love anyways. I can imagine them turning a blind eye to an concubine of the same sex as long as they make sure that their family line continues so that their son/daughter could say inherit the wealth of both families.
those are just two ideas/thoughts.
One thing I would be curious about, perhaps in an upcoming Qadira book, I at least hope for more info on this area, is an exploration of gender roles here. Since in Qadira, a lot of gender roles are a bit different. It is women with more power, not men; even if they can have multiple wives and what not. The books do indicate that it is slightly tilted more towards women then men, and exploring this would be interesting.
I don't play much in Golarion (I have my own campaign world) but I've read through some of these posts and I wonder if there has been any exploration of class ramifications of, especially, transgendered citizens. Since there are magical means to convert from one gender to another, does that generally mean that higher class citizens are more able to pursue their transgender goals? Or is there some advocacy or public support for magically transforming the transgendered lower classes?
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Perhaps high-wealth citizens in qadira and the rest of the Keleshite empire can have harems of whatever gender(s) they prefer?
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I don't play much in Golarion (I have my own campaign world) but I've read through some of these posts and I wonder if there has been any exploration of class ramifications of, especially, transgendered citizens. Since there are magical means to convert from one gender to another, does that generally mean that higher class citizens are more able to pursue their transgender goals? Or is there some advocacy or public support for magically transforming the transgendered lower classes?
For trans characters of the lower class there are always the options of exceptional heroism (i.e. become a PC) or taking a knife and a sturdy leather thong and hoping you don't bleed to death (I will leave the remaining steps involved up to your own research skills). Magic isn't required, it's just the most effective means of getting the job done.
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FLAGGED FOR BEING OFF-TOPIC!!!!
Golarion doesn't have Jelly Bellys, and the way you eat them is badwrongfun. Your hands get sticky and gross.
Yeah, this is a perfect example of political agenda of Paizo shoving jelly beans down our throats, until our throats get all sticky and filled so that further jelly beans come out of our noses ... disgusting and monstrous, I'd say.
August, the month Courts and Marie waged war on freedom. Here we stand, united in resistance.
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I want to say Qadiran women having multiple husbands(or wives) is the norm, to go along with the matriarchy. I know some examples of patriarchal Qadiran society have been said to be erroneous at least.
Who are Qadiran analogues of Vince Offer and Billy Mays...
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I don't think that quite gets the effect you're looking for. I'm no expert, but there's a little more involved than just a quick cut and stopping the bleeding.I don't play much in Golarion (I have my own campaign world) but I've read through some of these posts and I wonder if there has been any exploration of class ramifications of, especially, transgendered citizens. Since there are magical means to convert from one gender to another, does that generally mean that higher class citizens are more able to pursue their transgender goals? Or is there some advocacy or public support for magically transforming the transgendered lower classes?For trans characters of the lower class there are always the options of exceptional heroism (i.e. become a PC) or taking a knife and a sturdy leather thong and hoping you don't bleed to death (I will leave the remaining steps involved up to your own research skills). Magic isn't required, it's just the most effective means of getting the job done.
At a young enough age of intervention, removing testosterone from the equation removes 99% of the problem that requires most of the extensive work to correct.
And yes, I happen to be fairly knowledgeable in the situation. Not an "expert," but... knowledgeable.
I don't play much in Golarion (I have my own campaign world) but I've read through some of these posts and I wonder if there has been any exploration of class ramifications of, especially, transgendered citizens. Since there are magical means to convert from one gender to another, does that generally mean that higher class citizens are more able to pursue their transgender goals? Or is there some advocacy or public support for magically transforming the transgendered lower classes?For trans characters of the lower class there are always the options of exceptional heroism (i.e. become a PC) or taking a knife and a sturdy leather thong and hoping you don't bleed to death (I will leave the remaining steps involved up to your own research skills). Magic isn't required, it's just the most effective means of getting the job done.
Honestly a commoner could given time earn up enough to pay for the magic. I could see an organization in a bigger city/metropolis like the habitat for humanity that has you work with them for the later benefit of having the spells cast.
Hey if we have volunteer work and charity in the real world why not Zoidberg?
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I don't play much in Golarion (I have my own campaign world) but I've read through some of these posts and I wonder if there has been any exploration of class ramifications of, especially, transgendered citizens. Since there are magical means to convert from one gender to another, does that generally mean that higher class citizens are more able to pursue their transgender goals? Or is there some advocacy or public support for magically transforming the transgendered lower classes?For trans characters of the lower class there are always the options of exceptional heroism (i.e. become a PC) or taking a knife and a sturdy leather thong and hoping you don't bleed to death (I will leave the remaining steps involved up to your own research skills). Magic isn't required, it's just the most effective means of getting the job done.Honestly a commoner could given time earn up enough to pay for the magic. I could see an organization in a bigger city/metropolis like the habitat for humanity that has you work with them for the later benefit of having the spells cast.
Hey if we have volunteer work and charity in the real world why not Zoidberg?
I imagine some temples, especially those with clerics of Arshea or Lymneris in residence, would do the necessary spell work at reduced cost.
I don't think that quite gets the effect you're looking for. I'm no expert, but there's a little more involved than just a quick cut and stopping the bleeding.I don't play much in Golarion (I have my own campaign world) but I've read through some of these posts and I wonder if there has been any exploration of class ramifications of, especially, transgendered citizens. Since there are magical means to convert from one gender to another, does that generally mean that higher class citizens are more able to pursue their transgender goals? Or is there some advocacy or public support for magically transforming the transgendered lower classes?For trans characters of the lower class there are always the options of exceptional heroism (i.e. become a PC) or taking a knife and a sturdy leather thong and hoping you don't bleed to death (I will leave the remaining steps involved up to your own research skills). Magic isn't required, it's just the most effective means of getting the job done.At a young enough age of intervention, removing testosterone from the equation removes 99% of the problem that requires most of the extensive work to correct.
And yes, I happen to be fairly knowledgeable in the situation. Not an "expert," but... knowledgeable.
How young? Young enough to raise ethical concerns about consent?
Removing testosterone certainly changes the equation, but it doesn't make you female.
Isn't this more like becoming a eunuch than becoming female?
And of course, it doesn't really help those wishing to go the other way.
The thong and knife with remaining steps to be left up to investigation sounds like what little I know about the hijras, although various sources refer to them alternately as females, eunuchs, or a third sex.
Of course, what little I know about hijras comes from a John Irving novel, so...
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LGBT people exist.
Their mere existence is not some political agenda.
We can safely assume that LGBT people exist in our fantasy worlds (including Golarion) in roughly the same proportions as they exist in our world.
Acknowledging their existence is not 'pushing a political agenda' any more than acknowledging the existence of gravity is pushing some kind of scientific agenda.
100% agreed with this. The only political agenda I can see here is the one from those people that would rather LGBT people didn't exist and don't want reminding of the fact they do when they read a Paizo product, and that's a political agenda we can certainly do without.
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I imagine some temples, especially those with clerics of Arshea or Lymneris in residence, would do the necessary spell work at reduced cost.
Many temples might be open to such work, if it fits in their purview. In a community with too many of gender A, and parishioner coming up and saying they want to be gender B might find the Erastilite priest suddenly very accommodating, if it makes his goal of pairing off people in the community and getting them to settle down easier. A Calistrian temple might welcome men who wish to become women, but charge full price for women who want to become men, because the high priestess such a transition as a 'demotion' and it boggles her mind. A Lamashtan temple might feel similarly, but only allow men who have, in their view, 'earned' the right to transition to woman, to do this, while saving female-to-male transitions for women they despise, as a punishment for those who have failed or foiled the Mother of Monsters. Kuthites might be experimenting with surgical transitions, assisted by magical healing, but using no transmutation magic. Probably best not to volunteer for the clinical trials of that study...
And arcane groups, such as in Nex, near the 'fleshforges,' or in the Korvosan Acadame might have wizards hanging out placards advertising free procedures of this (and many other!) sorts, to practice their skill and train their pupils, making it the magical fantasy version of visiting the hairdressing school to get a free haircut. (After signing a disclaimer, because you really might be 'getting what you pay for' with this free student-administered gender re-assignment...)
A truly exploitive situation might exist (and serve as part of a characters backstory) that, to pay for the expensive spellwork, they had to agree to two years of indentured servitude to the Academae, which may have been as tedious as cleaning up after a class of a hundred or so junior wizards-to-be who are a bit full of themselves, to being used as a guinea pig for *other* magical procedures... Six months working for the school of enchantment as a 'living target dummy,' and you've experienced a range of magically-induced emotions and sensations that few people experience in their entire lives, leaving you finally in the right body, but emotionally a bit numb and jaded for your age. The six months working for the school of illusion was also a bit of a trip, including entire sessions where you performed various actions while silent image 'sculptors' refined their ability to create a perfect likeness of you, and put it to life-like motion. You've entirely blotted out the six months working for the school of necromancy, but you left feeling like you'd aged prematurely, and it was more months before you truly felt healthy again, due to all the negative energy you'd been zapped by...
I don't play much in Golarion (I have my own campaign world) but I've read through some of these posts and I wonder if there has been any exploration of class ramifications of, especially, transgendered citizens. Since there are magical means to convert from one gender to another, does that generally mean that higher class citizens are more able to pursue their transgender goals? Or is there some advocacy or public support for magically transforming the transgendered lower classes?For trans characters of the lower class there are always the options of exceptional heroism (i.e. become a PC) or taking a knife and a sturdy leather thong and hoping you don't bleed to death (I will leave the remaining steps involved up to your own research skills). Magic isn't required, it's just the most effective means of getting the job done.
Or get in good with Arshea...I can see her clerics being willing to help with transgender changes.
Or get in good with Arshea...I can see her clerics being willing to help with transgender changes.I don't play much in Golarion (I have my own campaign world) but I've read through some of these posts and I wonder if there has been any exploration of class ramifications of, especially, transgendered citizens. Since there are magical means to convert from one gender to another, does that generally mean that higher class citizens are more able to pursue their transgender goals? Or is there some advocacy or public support for magically transforming the transgendered lower classes?For trans characters of the lower class there are always the options of exceptional heroism (i.e. become a PC) or taking a knife and a sturdy leather thong and hoping you don't bleed to death (I will leave the remaining steps involved up to your own research skills). Magic isn't required, it's just the most effective means of getting the job done.
Ninjaed!
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My understanding of Qadira is that it doesnt some much as flip the gender roles as to slightly alter them. The daughters do generally inherit the fathers wealth, but it seems more to encourage the sons to build their own fortune and place in life as well as to grant the daughters a meaningful dowry.
Woman are allowed to own property and run businesses, both their own or those inherited, which makes a lot of sense for a culture that does not have a lot of agriculture and a pretty long history of conflict and warfare.
Im not sure about the woman having multiple husbands. I can only think of one culture that had similar practices, but realistically its basically more like a universally sexually open culture. It just doesnt work if the culture has any concepts of responsibility for children (such as being responsible for the healthcare and schooling, or financial support). Generally the only cultures that accept men to have multiple wives do so because of a huge attrition rate of the men, a significant disproportion of numer of men to women, or similar reasons, and have some pretty huge restrictions and responsibilities placed on the men to keep them from favoring one wife over others (in providing) as well as the children by those wives.
As for Cheliax and Taldor, I think it really depends on how you want to present it, or rather which aspects you want to promote. I can see both of them being either very uncarring or very against homosexuality (and other things). Not sure there is a right or wrong answer. I can see both being very Roman, where generally homosexuality, especially between males is not accepted, with a few exceptions. Certain nobles might have a sort of hidden "dark secret", and its ok if a master does it with slaves and servants, but only of they are in the dominate position. Females might do it to invite a level of scandle and from bordem, but be a little more acceptable, if not spoken about in public. Both could also be much more acceptable, particularly to show how much better they are, but the issue I see with that is it would then require most other nations to not be.
I would imagine that in Brevory, Taldor, Cheliax, Ustalav would not mind Homosexuality.I don't know. I've always understood Cheliax and Chelaxians in general to be the ultra conservatives. I've imagined them to be homophobic and anti-gay in public forums. Maybe I'm confusing them with someone else.
Meh, I've always read them as Roman. Have all the fun you want as long as you don't hang your laundry out for the world to see...
Unless you are powerful enough to ignore the consequences then air it all you want to showcase your power.
I mean look at the infernal syndrome.
Consider: Devils are bad and not to be dealt with... unless you are in charge and top of the pile, then use them as underlings. Have lavish parties where debauchery is expected, but don't let people see the skeletons in your closet or the Hellknights will get onto you.
Cheliaxians are simply extremist.
Im not sure about the woman having multiple husbands. I can only think of one culture that had similar practices, but realistically its basically more like a universally sexually open culture. It just doesnt work if the culture has any concepts of responsibility for children (such as being responsible for the healthcare and schooling, or financial support). Generally the only cultures that accept men to have multiple wives do so because of a huge attrition rate of the men, a significant disproportion of numer of men to women, or similar reasons, and have some pretty huge restrictions and responsibilities placed on the men to keep them from favoring one wife over others (in providing) as well as the children by those wives.
Maybe to start with... that's rarely how it ends, and rarely ends when those factors are no more.
Unfortunately it ends up being about power, usually.
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Im not sure about the woman having multiple husbands. I can only think of one culture that had similar practices, but realistically its basically more like a universally sexually open culture. It just doesnt work if the culture has any concepts of responsibility for children (such as being responsible for the healthcare and schooling, or financial support). Generally the only cultures that accept men to have multiple wives do so because of a huge attrition rate of the men, a significant disproportion of numer of men to women, or similar reasons, and have some pretty huge restrictions and responsibilities placed on the men to keep them from favoring one wife over others (in providing) as well as the children by those wives.Maybe to start with... that's rarely how it ends, and rarely ends when those factors are no more.
Unfortunately it ends up being about power, usually.
Im not sure what you mean. Its usually not about power, unless you are referring to specific individuals, sort of a sign of machoism. But for cultures who practice it, almost never about power, but a method of carring for families (which tend to be pretty closely knit and extended).
Yes to start with. Anyone can claim they are doing things, "For the family"... even as they disown, break, hurt, and even KILL members of their own family for perceived slights, including ones inflicted upon said family members.
I'm not saying that it has to end this way... but it often does. When it happens it's usually to "protect the family" or "preserve the family honor" or some such nonsense... but in the end it's really about preventing family members from breaking out of the society set up AND keeping the control on the family members, but such extents as not letting certain portions of the family learn certain trades (or any trade at all) or even learning in an academic setting at all.
NOW again this doesn't always happen -- there have been times when it's been reported as a system to work very well and keep everyone involved happy. However such a state isn't the most common or usual one.
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I dont know, I would say the opposite actually. Modern western culture tends to spread a lot of misinformation about it, especially in middle eastern cultures which its probably most well known for, but generally the things people believe are not as cut and dry as people think. Im not really even sure what you are referring to? Middle Eastern cultures that practiced it? Native American? Mormon, or something else?
Or do you mean based on your values and circumstances?
I can only think of one culture that had similar practices, but realistically its basically more like a universally sexually open culture. It just doesnt work if the culture has any concepts of responsibility for children (such as being responsible for the healthcare and schooling, or financial support).
[Citation needed]
(Especially in regards to cultures that practice(d) fraternal polyandry.)
Heavenly Breakfast by Samuel R. Delany, Tanith, that's the one you want. Sadly out of print, but search Ye Olde Used Bookstore.
(Or maybe possibly Dhalgren, by the same author, but that junk is about as dense as it gets.)
Heavenly Breakfast by Samuel R. Delany, Tanith, that's the one you want. Sadly out of print, but search Ye Olde Used Bookstore.
(Or maybe possibly Dhalgren, by the same author, but that junk is about as dense as it gets.)
Dhalgren.... brrrrrrrr........ Thanks Hitdice, now the nightmares will come back...