Homosexuality in Golarion


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Trying to get things back on track, here's a couple of items that Wes Schneider suggested a month ago:

F. Wesley Schneider wrote:

Transgender Elixir

Aura faint transmutation; CL 9th
Slot none; Price 2,250 gp; Weight —
DESCRIPTION
Upon drinking this elixir a character permanently transforms into a member of that race of the opposite gender. While the user's physiology changes dramatically and the user's features slightly adjust to take on more masculine or feminine qualities, the change is not so radical that the character is no longer recognizable as the same person. The character has no control over the specific details of this new appearance, and the elixir grants no benefit on Disguise skill checks or similar checks.

This elixir's magic functions instantaneously and cannot be dispelled, though drinking a second transgender elixir reverts the character back to the former gender and appearance. The elixir has no effect on characters of races with no gender. Characters of races with more than two genders may decide which gender this elixir transforms them into.
CONSTRUCTION
Requirements Craft Wondrous Items, polymorph; Cost 1,125 gp

Additionally, here's the girdle of opposite gender revised as a normal magic item rather than a cursed item:

Cord of Opposite Gender
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 10th
Slot belt; Price 100,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.
DESCRIPTION
When this magical cord is put on, the wearer immediately transforms into a person of the opposite gender. If the cord is removed, the character transforms back to the original sex. While the wearer's physiology changes dramatically and the wearer's features slightly adjust to take on more feminine or masculine qualities, the change is not so radical that the character is no longer recognizable as the same. A character has no control over the specific details of this new appearance, and the elixir grants no benefit on Disguise skill checks or similar checks.
CONSTRUCTION
Requirements Craft Wondrous Items, polymorph; Cost 50,000 gp

If you add those into the game (is the elixir what Anevia used in WotR?), and take the elixir's price (and the construction requirements) as canon, you can do some world-building type thinking about how being trans plays out in Golarion.

Who would be able to accumulate 2250 gp that they could afford to spend on this? Adventurers, obviously. Who else? I don't have a good enough grasp on Golarion's economy to say, but let's say the wealthy, maybe some members of the merchant class. Who else?

However one might be able to accumulate that amount (which isn't all that much for a successful adventurer), that would be a potential path for trans people in the world, or a path they might try to angle themselves toward, whether successfully or unsuccessfully.

And if, I'd guess, that price is out of the range of what most peasants and commoners and barbarian tribespeople and whatever would be able to afford, that'd probably create a degree of additional pressure on people who realize they're trans to try and become adventurers. Which might mean (to get back to some arguments earlier in this thread) that the percentage of trans people among the adventurer population (which includes PCs and a lot of NPCs) might be a bit higher than among the general population.

(Edit to add: The higher percentage thing can happen in the real world, for different reasons - saw an article recently mentioning a study that indicated that trans people in the US were twice as likely to enlist in military service as non-trans people. So, still not a big percentage, but a bigger percentage. Apply that here, and you're more likely to see the occasional trans NPC.)

Then again, the opportunity to become an adventurer, to gain the necessary starting skills and equipment, is going to vary from place to place. So how does that affect trans existence in the setting?

And how well known would such a thing be? Is it the sort of thing young trans people, newly aware of themselves, would think, someday, I'm going to buy one of those elixirs. Or is it the sort of thing where a seasoned adventurer finds out about it and thinks, oh thank [insert god of choice], and plunks down the cash (or seeks out someone who could make it).

Anyways, just trying to move things past the argument stage again.


KSF

Why the huge difference in the price of the two items? You could buy almost 50 of the elixirs for the belt. The belt seems pretty expensive.


Hakken wrote:

KSF

Why the huge difference in the price of the two items? You could buy almost 50 of the elixirs for the belt. The belt seems pretty expensive.

No idea. They weren't my items. They were Wes's.

It might be because the elixir is a one-way trip, while the cord is not.

The cord could also have other uses (disguising oneself for spying purposes, etc), so maybe its creators could demand a higher price?

Edit to add: The cord is also a multiple use object, not a once and gone potion, so I'd guess, from both an in-game economic perspective (again, what one could charge for it), a mechanics perspective (infusing permanent magic within an object) and from an external game balance perspective, that leads to the higher price.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Plus Potions are typically much less expensive than wearables. Potion of Bull's Strength: 300 GP- Belt of Giant Strength +4: 16000 GP


Cori Marie wrote:
Plus Potions are typically much less expensive than wearables. Potion of Bull's Strength: 300 GP- Belt of Giant Strength +4: 16000 GP

It's not the same multiplier, but it's close (53x for your example, 44x for Wes' items). So that seems pretty standard.


KSF wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
Plus Potions are typically much less expensive than wearables. Potion of Bull's Strength: 300 GP- Belt of Giant Strength +4: 16000 GP
It's not the same multiplier, but it's close (53x for your example, 44x for Wes' items). So that seems pretty standard.

I would question the permancy effect also. there is a 53X difference in that example but the potion of bull strength is not permanent--makes sense for it to be less.

The elixir of sex change is actually more permanent than the belt. Maybe 60K or so for belt?


KSF wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
Plus Potions are typically much less expensive than wearables. Potion of Bull's Strength: 300 GP- Belt of Giant Strength +4: 16000 GP
It's not the same multiplier, but it's close (53x for your example, 44x for Wes' items). So that seems pretty standard.

'Permanent' stat items cost the bonus squared, whereas potions are a set price based on spell level and caster level.

As such you won't see a 'multiplier' between the items that matches as you are looking for. Well at least not on stat items, with other wondrous items you might.


Abraham spalding wrote:
KSF wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
Plus Potions are typically much less expensive than wearables. Potion of Bull's Strength: 300 GP- Belt of Giant Strength +4: 16000 GP
It's not the same multiplier, but it's close (53x for your example, 44x for Wes' items). So that seems pretty standard.

'Permanent' stat items cost the bonus squared, whereas potions are a set price based on spell level and caster level.

As such you won't see a 'multiplier' between the items that matches as you are looking for. Well at least not on stat items, with other wondrous items you might.

I was thinking more in terms of order of magnitude, rather than an exact match. Just messing with math is all.

Thanks for that, though. I'm not up on item creation rules.


Hakken wrote:
KSF wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
Plus Potions are typically much less expensive than wearables. Potion of Bull's Strength: 300 GP- Belt of Giant Strength +4: 16000 GP
It's not the same multiplier, but it's close (53x for your example, 44x for Wes' items). So that seems pretty standard.

I would question the permancy effect also. there is a 53X difference in that example but the potion of bull strength is not permanent--makes sense for it to be less.

The elixir of sex change is actually more permanent than the belt. Maybe 60K or so for belt?

That'd be fine by me.


did it say which item that one woman got for her spouse? cause she traded an expensive sword in or something right?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Irabeth got the/a elixir. It's been posited that she probably purchased two, from two separate sources, because she wanted to be sure.


Hakken wrote:
did it say which item that one woman got for her spouse? cause she traded an expensive sword in or something right?

Well she might have been swindled...not all merchants are honest after all.

Also she may have sold the sword and used the money to pay for mnore than just the Exilir...like the marriage cermony...a house....or maybe donated the rest of the money to the war effort.


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It has always been clear to me that while you can always try to understand others' views, but a tolerant mindset requires a single exception: You can't tolerate intolerance.

Grand Lodge

Sissyl wrote:
It has always been clear to me that while you can always try to understand others' views, but a tolerant mindset requires a single exception: You can't tolerate intolerance.

And I'm ok with that. If my philosophy requires me to be intolerant of those who can't abide difference, that's a cost - and a relatively minor chink of inconsistency - I'm willing to pay.


Sissyl wrote:
It has always been clear to me that while you can always try to understand others' views, but a tolerant mindset requires a single exception: You can't tolerate intolerance.

And even then you can "tolerate" it. You just can't go much further than that. You can't let the intolerate set policy or actively discriminate in business or politics, but you also can't eliminate their intolerance in their private life.

You will however occasionally offend them by naming their prejudice for what it is. Or by passing laws that go against it. This they will often paint as "bigotry" against them.


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Which doesn't matter. See their protests for what they are: The frightened bleating of dogmatic people who can't see beyond their own dogma for the points that said dogma was built, in another time, to promote. Strive to understand the world as best you can. Refuse simplistic slogans. And, when, one day, you are the one trying to stem the tide from going a certain way, and someone points out who your views are hurting... Listen.


...or just hate everyone equally. That works too, I guess.

Grand Lodge

Icyshadow wrote:
...or just hate everyone equally. That works too, I guess.

I've never been fond of "hate everybody" as a philosophical standpoint. It ties too neatly into extant social stereotypes and bigotries against members of "out" groups, and never seems to come home in significant sanction against people who have sociopolitical power.


Agreed. There is no problem to which misanthropy is an answer.

That said, my statement was not intended as a political strategy, but a personal one, even if there are political consequences of it.


I was joking, though I do have my misanthropic moments ;D


You're not alone, Icyshadow.

Silver Crusade

Sissyl wrote:
It has always been clear to me that while you can always try to understand others' views, but a tolerant mindset requires a single exception: You can't tolerate intolerance.

That's where 'Political Correctness' went wrong!

Intended as a way to encourage tolerance, it very quickly became what it hated: intolerant!

It started to label people as racist if they used a blackboard instead of a chalkboard, and sexist if they used the word manhole cover instead of the absurd personhole cover!

Some people lost their jobs in an absurd witch hunt! Pretending people are racist/sexist when they are not hurt the cause badly.

In fact, the phrase 'politically correct' is now not politically correct, due to the massive negative reputation it has earned. You should now use the phrase 'culturally aware', as it doesn't have the negative emotional baggage that has poisoned PC.

Digital Products Assistant

Removed a few derailing posts and their responses. Let's try to keep this thread on topic, please. If you have comments about real world issues, there is another thread for that.

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