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I think, given the tendency for RW shamans and shape shifters to have associations with third-gender or cross-dressing traditions, that being a druid would make you pretty relaxed about sex and gender rules.
Particularly since animals don't have taboos per se.
I wonder if druids would behave a lot like their totems or preferred shapes.
The other thing I think is that it might go both ways: druids, being capable of asking animals and even plants how they feel about things, will extend human rules of consent and assumptions about personhood to the natural world. You can ask a tree for a branch, and hence, you should ask a person about the use or sharing of their body as well.
I think, given the tendency for RW shamans and shape shifters to have associations with third-gender or cross-dressing traditions, that being a druid would make you pretty relaxed about sex and gender rules.
Particularly since animals don't have taboos per se.
I wonder if druids would behave a lot like their totems or preferred shapes.
The other thing I think is that it might go both ways: druids, being capable of asking animals and even plants how they feel about things, will extend human rules of consent and assumptions about personhood to the natural world. You can ask a tree for a branch, and hence, you should ask a person about the use or sharing of their body as well.
Funny you should mention this, as it ties into the Vudra and Indian RPG thread...albeit in a roundabout way.
While there's certainly many recurrences of the twospirit/cisgengered theme among shamanistic traditions, at least in Amerind/First Nation peoples, I am insufficiently familiar with those that are originating in Hindian lore and tradition. However, what little I've read gives me the impression that, among the Deva (not the d20 entities, but the ones from lore/faith/legend), such would be roughly analogous - as everything, in a sense, has a spirit in an almost Shinto-esque fashion, if a Deva happened across a particularly lovely ashoka tree, he might call upon the spirit that inhabited it, possibly even a yakshini, for intimate congress if so desired. I could see a druid of a mystical bent being similarly so expecting of a giving and taking relationship, perhaps perplexed by the fact that some people might take offense at being asked for such intimacies as though asking to be passed the salt.
At the same time, I tend to think of druids...well, strike that. I tend to think of most classes, in general, being anything but a unified front of any sort, simply to account for different orthodoxies, individual agenda, and any number of other complicating factors, no matter how much I may indicate a favored trope, meme, or tendency. I blame that, at least when it comes to druids, on Eberron's season druids, and the sorts I've extrapolated from there.
Which reminds me, appropriate of nothing, if a centaur druid could, technically, wildshape to a human form (to wit, going bipedal), particularly if it was for purposes of intimate play with a compatriot, regardless of orientation, or if that's getting a bit too meta.
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Funny you should mention this, as it ties into the Vudra and Indian RPG thread...albeit in a roundabout way.
While there's certainly many recurrences of the twospirit/cisgengered theme among shamanistic traditions, at least in Amerind/First Nation peoples, I am insufficiently familiar with those that are originating in Hindian lore and tradition. However, what little I've read gives me the impression that, among the Deva (not the d20 entities, but the ones from lore/faith/legend), such would be roughly analogous - as everything, in a sense, has a spirit in an almost Shinto-esque fashion, if a Deva happened across a particularly lovely ashoka tree, he might call upon the spirit that inhabited it, possibly even a yakshini, for intimate congress if so desired. I could see a druid of a mystical bent being similarly so expecting of a giving and taking relationship, perhaps perplexed by the fact that some people might take offense at being asked for such intimacies as though asking to be passed the salt.
Yes, an interesting analogy. Devas are polymorphous, polygendered beings in South Asian myth. Vishnu and Shiva both take female form and are available sexually to a large number of devotees and aspects of Shakti. Since Shakti herself is present in the whole world - she's physical creation itself - in addition to vital energy - we are all, as are all physical things, parts of Shakti, who is the intimate consort of Ishvara, the immanent god-head, as well, in some traditions, as its mother and daughter. So all deva-mortal interactions are intimate transactions, on some level, with faith and love being aspects of the universal eternal concepts of faith and love, including desire and even loss. This is the basis of bhakti.
I could really see a Vudran Druid as being devoted to this notion and being both an ascetic and a sybarite at the same time.As you note, however, on an earthier level, ashoka trees (and most other trees) are seen as sensual beings in South Asian art and religion. As are stones, mountains, rivers, lakes, and all else, really.
...The druids/clerics and lay followers may not like the phenomena in humanoids and may use their religion as cudgel, but they can't argue it doesn't already exist in nature and serves some reproductive benefit.First, don't get me wrong - I agree wholeheartedly with you on the point of order, from a modern and enlightened point of view.
However, on the gaming level, I am more inclined to believe, given my take on druids (an admittedly biased view at that), that Nature™ does not spill more information than is necessary, and as such such information might be known to druids of a specialization appropriate to said species (namely, aquatic druids being exceptionally open and tolerant compared to one from, say, a forest or a desert?), but outside of those environs it may or may not be knowledge, and certainly not common - much as in the real world. Corresponding to this, such qualities are certainly appropriate to the respective invertebrates or lower-order creatures, from such a vantage point, but the key point and conceit is that, to such believers, that's fine for THEM, but not for humans. Or, to put it more cheekily...
Neighboring Island Tribe Cleric: Hey! You people! Stop forcing yourself on that man!
Local Island Tribesman: Why should we listen to you? The druid says it's okay.
Local Island Druid: Hey, the dolphins practice rough sex on other males of their kin, it's...
I can see that, as outside of a conclave or occasionally bumping into one another, most druids are probably hermit-y too. And even the wisest and most-well intentioned/reverential druid still occasionally flubs Wisdom -based checks too.
I'm not arguing the morality of it (in this case) but that it seems normal in Nature (think of all the hermaphroditic plants alone). Just like chimps & lions being murderous to outsiders of their tribe/pride and to offspring not their own... morality doesn't come into what is Natural. And while the druids are comparing non-sentient animals (running on instinct) to sentient humanoids (capable of overriding that instinct), I think it errs on hubris for Average Druid to think Humanity knows better than Nature. As a counterpoint, would (most) druids see humans as being that far removed from animals, or place added value on reasoning over instinct? I don't seem (most) druids really giving a crap about philosophic concepts when then they are so grounded in the ruthlessly pragmatic Natural world. But as a GM/player, most of my druids, even the NG ones, are rather alien thinking when seen through most PCs'/NPCs' civilized eyes.
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It was only a matter of time...homosexual treant[Insert hard wood joke here]
Always go with the grain. Just saying.
I can see that, as outside of a conclave or occasionally bumping into one another, most druids are probably hermit-y too. And even the wisest and most-well intentioned/reverential druid still occasionally flubs Wisdom -based checks too.
Hee!
Though I was less going for Wisdom flub and more for Very Skewed Perspective...as well as a sort of 'Why Clerics and Druids do Not Necessarily Get Along'. Also that, while clerics may be more similar within their own faiths, druids are wildly (heh?) disparate.
I'm not arguing the morality of it (in this case) but that it seems normal in Nature (think of all the hermaphroditic plants alone). Just like chimps & lions being murderous to outsiders of their tribe/pride and to offspring not their own... morality doesn't come into what is Natural. And while the druids are comparing non-sentient animals (running on instinct) to sentient humanoids (capable of overriding that instinct), I think it errs on hubris for Average Druid to think Humanity knows better than Nature. As a counterpoint, would (most) druids see humans as being that far removed from animals, or place added value on reasoning over instinct? I don't seem (most) druids really giving a crap about philosophic concepts when then they are so grounded in the ruthlessly pragmatic Natural world. But as a GM/player, most of my druids, even the NG ones, are rather alien thinking when seen through most PCs'/NPCs' civilized eyes.
Truthfully I'm both in agreement and dispute, though not by much. Admittedly, some of the mitigating aspect in druidic differences are as much nuance as alignment debate fodder; I tend to see certain alignments focusing on one aspect of nature than another, with only the True Neutral sorts seeking a wholeness of balance in a self-contained fashion. Those with other components to their alignment I tend to picture as taking a stance or position to correct a perceived or observed imbalance - neutral good moving more towards nurturing, life-positiveness, growth, and what some would call 'general hippiness', while neutral evil focuses on the culling of life, excesses, and thinning the herd, bringing balance by force if need be, disease if so required. On the law/chaos axis, I see more of a tendency towards focusing on the weather/environs and changes on one side, and preservation of the locale on the other in the vein of the traditional long-haired 'STAY OUTTA MY WILDERNESS' freaky bearded wild folk. Granted, it's also stereotyping, which I normally don't like, but having some shorthand comes in handy when I'm trying to indicate why groups of druids might get their 'circle' on.
Taking your examples into account, let me attempt clarification on where we agree and dissent - I feel that most druids, by virtue of being druids, don't tend to think humanity above Nature. However, there is a sliding scale, perhaps a spectrum, of where humanity fits into nature's order - some feel humans are animals, and treat them accordingly, no better than ants or apes or any other communal organism. Others feel that humans (well, technically, all [demi-]human races, but humanity tends to be the prime crux of such opinions) are apart from nature, even as they are part of it - in those cases, humans are seen as only being a druid's concern insomuch as they are impacting the rest of nature, such as hunting, gathering, and resource-depleting. Even among those numbers, there might be differing degrees of involvement and interpretation - if a village in a remote wooded area becomes dangerously short on people, a more ruthless druid might seek to see the remaining people killed off as they were not fit to survive in the area (be the cause a plague, a vicious winter storm, famine, or a bad case of serial infant mortality), while one that is more giving and life-affirming might decide to help the villagers, even aiding with the re-population efforts...so long as things don't get out of hand.
Given that nature encompasses everything from Survival of the Fittest to the Green Mother that Overflows with Life, there's a lot of room for varying view of druidism, none absolutist. Part of that span includes, from my vantage point, druids who might say that certain functions are natural to one species, but don't apply to others. This would be less of a function of judgmental elitism, and more of an almost...well, Taoist, really, innate understanding of things. Put flippantly, canines lick their genitals because they are canines, and that is what they do. That isn't something innately human, as humans can wash their own with their hands. Some animals go into rut or estrus at only certain times of the year - while this would be endlessly advantageous for population control, humans are not so constrained. Certain creatures posses, gifted by nature itself, the ability to change sexes. Humans do not have this innately, for woe or weal.
It's almost tautological, but it has a certain sense to it. Snails are hermaphroditic because snails are hermaphroditic. Humans are not. Except when they are. And it isn't to be condemned as a freakish occurrence when it happens, but seen as perhaps an indication that nature has plans that are not yet fully divulged...and may or may not involve making homosexuality obsolete or irrelevant.
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On the 'in game word for lesbian' notion, aren't there some amazon populations in Golarion? The dinosaur riders south of Garund, for example?
Holomog! I'm not sure that's the name of the people as well though.
I thought about trying to derive something from Qadira too, considering the matriarchy, but Holomog probably has a more female-centric reputation going for it(and doesn't really have much in the way of political enemies in the Inner Sea Region, except maybe Geb).
Thinking about the Sarenrae/Shelyn/Desna relationship and how it might be romanticized to supply some positive identifiers...
****************
Katryn tried to keep up with the Varisian girl. It was already dark out and she knew she was expected home, but she couldn't leave her friend without apologizing.
Alma turned back to her, continuing her rapid pace backwards, her smile flashing brightly in the moonlight. "C'mon! My brother will be playing back at the camp tonight! You'll love the songs he's picked up since we were here last!"
The young Chelish woman grinned despite herself. "I'm sure. But..." She half regretted leading into it as Alma raised an eyebrow and slowed her step. Katryn did not want to sour the night any further than she felt it already had.
"Hm?" Alma prompted, finally coming to a stop as her old friend stared at her own feet.
Katryn sheepishly continued. "I'm sorry. About my mother."
Alma tilted her head, a quizzical look in her eyes. "For....?"
Gods, does she really not know? Katryn suspected that Alma was playing with her now. Her voice dropped almost to a whisper as she continued. "For the "moth" remark..." Her pale cheeks turned pink with embarassment. "She's...old fashioned...she doesn't know any..."
She stopped short as her friend nearly doubled over from laughter, her hands on her knees and her long black locks brushing against the grass.
"I'm serious!" Katryn's blush deepened. "You and your family have been coming through here for years. She should know better by now!"
Alma rose straight again, her chest still shaking and a hand over her mouth. "Wow, you're really bothered!"
"Well of course I am! It's...a rude thing to call a Varisian! I know that. And you're my friend...a-and the first time you've been able to visit us in months she has to go and say that..." She was beginning to stammer. She didn't notice that her hands had balled into fists or that her eyes were misting, but her friend did.
"Hey..." Alma said, her voice soft rather than carrying its usual playful edge as she placed a hand on the blond girl's shoulder. "It's alright."
Katryn fell silent and nodded, finally realizing how hard she was breathing after her outburst. She felt ashamed by the unseemly display, and then voicelessly thanked her mother for both giving her a reason for it and the upbringing that told her to be ashemed of it.
"Besides!" Alma said, the cheer already back in her voice as she removed her hand and tapped her friend on the forehead, continuing her backwards pace with arms spread wide. "She was a bit close!"
Katryn's faint grin returned. "I know... Butterflies, for Desna."
"Nope! Warmer!" She smiled widely with fake smugness.
Katryn's eyes narrowed. As dear as her friend was, she could be so frustrating with the games she played. "What then?"
Alma's smile grew lopsided and Katryn recognized the sign that she had a mind for mischief. The Varisian took the farmgirl's hand and led her quickly along into the woods. "I'll show you." she promised. "And I'll tell you a story I bet your father never did on the way!" She pointed at the wooden ankh hanging from Katryn's neck.
Now she was curious.
As they picked their way through the lightly grown trees, the sound of Alma's caravan growing faintly closer.
"How much do you really know about Desna?" Alma asked as she guided her friend along, picking their path with seemingly little effort.
Katryn slowly picked over her answer, "She's the goddess of the night sky and the shepherd of dreams.... And the goddess of the Varisians?" She quickly added.
"And" Alma continued, quickly drawing to a stop. "She protects dreamers from any nasty things hiding in the dark..." she said with mock forboding as she gestured towards the darkness of teh woods around them. Katryn suddenly felt that the town and the caravan seemed so very far away, even as Alma's grin returned and pulled her along again.
Alma went on as they pressed further into the woods. "She fights the monsters that try to make the night their own, so we can dwell in it! And sometimes the things she fights are great and terrible. But the Song of Spheres always wins." Katryn thought she heard a tinge of pride in Alma's voice. "But the worst of them still leave her hurting. She always gets back up though. But a few times, she was gravely hurt. After she won the fight."
"By what?"
"The nightmares of gods." Alma answered, a hint of uncertainty in her tone. "The first time...she had her heart broken. And she was in danger of dying. Shelyn found her, and reminded her off all the wonders in the sky and beautiful mysteries hiding in the dark, waiting to be found, and this gave Desna back her hope. But she couldn't mend the wounds of her flesh, so the Rose took her to your goddess." She turned back, pointing again at Katryn's ankh. "Sarenrae."
Katryn wondered at how she had never heard of this story before, since she had always been taught that Desna was one of the Dawnflower's allies.
"Sarenrae mended and purified her flesh. Desna thanked both of the goddesses and swore to come to their aid if they ever needed it, and she returned to the night. And eventually she would be gravely injured again, because there are a lot of things in the night that she keeps away from us.
"And so it goes. Desna would return to the twilight where Sarenrae could find her, and the Dawnflower would heal her. And this has happened many times before and it will happen many times to come. But one time, Desna saw that Sarenrae was crying.
"Why?" Katryn asked, feeling that it was almost expected of her.
"Desna asked just that. And Sarenrae told her that it was because of all the pain her friend endured. Because Desna fought for wonders that she could never see and because she could never join her in that fight, because with Sarenrae always came the day. She wept that her friend was alone in so many things and for so long. She wept so hard that the tears burned in her eyes.
Alma slowed her pace and looked back, that playful smile turned gentle. "Desna wiped the tears from Sarenrae's face and held them in her palm. She called seven of her butterflies to her side and told the Dawnflower not to weep for her."
Alma led Katryn into a clearing, their destination all this time. Katryn gasped.
"And those butterflies became fireflies." Alma said with absolute reverence.
They stood on the grassy bank of a stream, the stars now shining brightly without the canopy of leaves to hide them. And all about them more stars danced close to the ground. The slow lazy flight of the fireflies carpetted most of the clearing, those over the water seeming to dance perfectly with their reflected twins. Katryn stared with her mouth agape. This has always been here, so close to home, and I've never seen it like this until she showed me...
Alma's hand tightened as they took in the sight over the stream. "And Desna told her...to not weep because her light would always be with her in the dark, and that her light had long been part of the Song of Spheres. And she promised the Dawnflower that the light she took with her would remind others in the night that there was always someone whose heart lay with them. To assure them that they were never alone."
Alma turned to her friend. The Chelish girl's hair looked nearly white in the moonlight, especially against the dark of night in her own. She took her friend's other hand, their fingers interlaced. The stars above and below aparkled in their eyes. Katryn felt nearly entranced as Alma eyes locked with hers. "So your mother was close. I'm a firefly."
Katryn's cheeks felt warm. She did not know for certain how long she stood there, the gentle rolling of the stream and the orchestra of crickets the only noise.
Until Alma broke the silence. "Maybe you're one too!" Her lopsided smile was back.
Katryn was confused. "But...I'm not Varisian."
Alma laughed and let one hand go as she once more pulled her friend along. "You don't have to be a Varisian to be a firefly, you know."
"I..." Katryn giggled, feeling at a loss. "I don't understand...I think."
The smile Alma flashed back at her warmed her heart more than she would have expected. "Maybe you'll find out soon. My brother has a song I want you to hear. We can come back later, c'mon!"
Katryn followed her friend towards the sound of family and revelry, new half-formed dreams dancing in her head as they left the stream of stars behind them for a time.
***********
And "firefly" has just taken a new meaning in my campaigns
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Mikaze, I love you and your imagination. It's like I'm reading some cute yuri manga or something here. D'awww.
Please, sir, can I have some more?
Seconded.
Also, I'm glad it went cute, rather than carnal, because I would be lying if I tried to claim that the wandering-off into the woods didn't seem like an invitation to dreams that would leave the eventual awakeners in a sheen of sensually scented sweat.
Plus, being at work, I wouldn't be able to lob a counter-example in that direction anyways. Especially - ESPECIALLY! - since I've not gotten to read the comics, but discovering that THIS is not as heretical as previously thought is a thing of joy.
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That was lovely, Mikaze. :-)
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Which reminds me, appropriate of nothing, if a centaur druid could, technically, wildshape to a human form (to wit, going bipedal), particularly if it was for purposes of intimate play with a compatriot, regardless of orientation, or if that's getting a bit too meta.
*rimshot*
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<3 Mikaze! That was very sweet.
I just wanted to say that I sincerely appreciate the inclusion of LGBT and the positive way you're handling this thread (special thanks to the staff that have contributed/moderated.**)
I have been a long time table top player/GM (for decades) and I've always felt that relationships (both platonic and not) are an important part of a setting. It is an important part of our lives and the whole point of these games is immersion via a believable backdrop (or at least to me.)
It is also unavoidable. Not to say sex comes up in a campaign (or all them at least) but companionship/relationships certainly do. NPCs spouses can be an important font of information and also an instinctual resource in campaigns.
For example, when a campaign has a plot point of a missing or suspiciously murdered King my first instinct is "I need to question the Queen." (Pun intended there! *wink*)
Lastly, I have always tried to vote with my dollar in every practical way I can. For the reasons mentioned here, I can safely say you've cemented dibs on my dollar before any other brand in your market. This is to say nothing of the fact that I extremely enjoy the system you've created.
Also, I find Varisia as an inspiring backdrop as a long time GM. Keep up the great work and thank you very much for your time and effort.
Which reminds me, appropriate of nothing, if a centaur druid could, technically, wildshape to a human form (to wit, going bipedal), particularly if it was for purposes of intimate play with a compatriot, regardless of orientation, or if that's getting a bit too meta.** spoiler omitted **
:D
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Woo, tangent - there's no Sappho in Golarion, as of yet, nor an actual isle of Lesbos. By extension, lesbianism would be an in-universe misnomer.
Perhaps there's a woman-loving island off Iblydos?
Wouldn't Hermea be the perfect place?
Mengkare has brought all these people together, for the purposes of a breeding program, so they have to be able to stomach occasional contact with the opposite sex, but they aren't necessarily expected to form lifelong bonds with the multiple(?), temporary brood partners he pairs them with.
For several weeks of every month, the women aren't likely to become pregnant, but they may still welcome affection. For that reason, I can envision Mengkare being unconcerned by them pairing off among themselves, even approving, or encouraging the practice, since it reduces the risk of them becoming accidentally pregnant to a random male, and tainting the experiment.
Similarly, if the males have some other male-on-male contact sports, to keep themselves busy, they will be less tempted to sneak into the women's dorm, and mucky up the gene-pool.
From the dragon's point of view, it is actually preferable for the humans under his control to be bisexual (tending most toward same-gender unions), or even fully homosexual, with the understanding that they may be called on to 'lie back and think of Hermea', in return for their upkeep.
@Snorter: I was thinking that same concept while reading Hermea's entry on PathfinderWiki...
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Thanks folks. I was actually worried that it was too clunky, having to speed through that post. :)
Took on a self-imposed challenge in another thread and it wound up kind of growing into something else. Will probably have to finish it after getting the megapost done for this thread and finishing some other projects though... Hopefully it'll make fans of that Qinggong Monk illustrated in Ultimate Magic happy!
@AntiElite, all of those "X is tsundere for Y" discussions just came flooding back. Man, if everyone knew then what they know now... ;)
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Seriously beautiful - thank you, Mikaze =)
Very nice story Mikaze. You are talented. Would like to see the story continue...please.
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Mikaze always writes good things. If I knew her in real life, I'd tell her that to her face.
Mikaze always writes good things. If I knew her in real life, I'd tell her that to her face.
I believe Mikaze is a male. Atleast I seem to remember him saying something to that effect.
Mikaze always writes good things. If I knew her in real life, I'd tell her that to her face.I believe Mikaze is a male. Atleast I seem to remember him saying something to that effect.
I can't remember if Mikaze is m/f/trans/cis/etc, but for some reason I just see her as a her. Or maybe I'm just use to Paizo's use of the female pronoun for most "unknown" gender listings.
"The Internet, where men are kids, women are men, and kids are undercover FBI agents."
I am none of those things, so I guess I don't exist.
"The Internet, where men are kids, women are men, and kids are undercover FBI agents."I am none of those things, so I guess I don't exist.
It's an old joke passed 'round the internet many years ago. It surprises me each time I see someone who hasn't heard it, yet it seems few have. It's a hilarious joke and pokes fun at certain stereotypes (as it's clearly not true :P).
There are plenty of girls on the interwebs. There are plenty of g.i.r.l.s too. :P
I'm super diggin' this thread. ^-^
Regarding the fan-made Girdle of Fertility, would that allow cross-race(as in halfing-human, dwarf-gnome) conception? I am remembering the entry in the Kear Maga source book were a community of halfings and humans were looking for a way for reliable and affordable interbreeding. Also brings up a possible question of what would the offspring be like? inherit some traits of each parent such as abilities?
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Brain: "Are you pondering what I'm pondering, Pinky?"
Pinky "I think so, Brain...but me and Pippi Longstocking...I mean- what would the children be like?"
Brain: ...
Brain: "No, Pinky..."
Thanks folks. I was actually worried that it was too clunky, having to speed through that post. :)
** spoiler omitted **
@AntiElite, all of those "X is tsundere for Y" discussions just came flooding back. Man, if everyone knew then what they know now... ;)
I still peek back in that thread periodically hoping someone besides me updates it, but the problem is that such thread necromancy is about as well received as discussions about speculative sexuality of, say, dwarves and gnomes and strip clubs involving same, or the aesthetics of anatomical bits normally left suitably covered by adventuring gear.
Part of me wants to speculate on the Inari/Naga Queen worshiper relationships, if not possibly between those of the Laughing God and a few of his paramours who are not necessarily female. He strikes me as the sort to be adventuresome in that regards, without being condescending or dismissive or blasély opportunistic (to wit, any port in a storm).
Regarding the fan-made Girdle of Fertility, would that allow cross-race(as in halfing-human, dwarf-gnome) conception? I am remembering the entry in the Kear Maga source book were a community of halfings and humans were looking for a way for reliable and affordable interbreeding. Also brings up a possible question of what would the offspring be like? inherit some traits of each parent such as abilities?
Well, I think it was Wes or James that ruled out any such cross-race fertility in Golarion canon, but otherwise, for other settings and homebrews, why not? If you have the Advanced Race Guide it'd be fairly simple to start with a base halfling, for example, and then swap out a couple racial traits for similarly point-valued standard human traits (assuming the player hasn't figured out some mechanics uber-combination). Ignoring the difficulty of a Small mother carrying and birthing a baby that'll grow to medium size, the adult blended-race PC will probably encounter all sorts of odd social reactions, from neutral/mildly irritating to outright hostility, from some family members, many NPCs, and (at least initially) other party members. Having included racism/Otherism themes in many Shadowrun games I've run, I can definitely caution it'll take the right mix of players to pull it off without it being disruptive or upsetting.
Well, I think it was Wes or James that ruled out any such cross-race fertility in Golarion canon, but otherwise, for other settings and homebrews, why not? If you have the Advanced Race Guide it'd be fairly simple to start with a base halfling, for example, and then swap out a couple racial traits for similarly point-valued standard human traits (assuming the player hasn't figured out some mechanics uber-combination). Ignoring the difficulty of a Small mother carrying and birthing a baby that'll grow to medium size, the adult blended-race PC will probably encounter all sorts of odd social reactions, from neutral/mildly irritating to outright hostility, from some family members, many NPCs, and (at least initially) other party members. Having included racism/Otherism themes in many Shadowrun games I've run, I can definitely caution it'll take the right mix of players to pull it off without it being disruptive or upsetting.
My only thing I'd point out there is that, by all accounts, the initial offspring need not be size M on delivery...and halflings may not be kiwis, but that doesn't mean that magic would not make such a distended scenario implausible. Also, something something paradox frog.
I guess that would fall under 'miracle baby' where magic would mingle the genes of both parents and provide for the gestation without explosive consenquences.
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After recently seeing an X-ray of a kiwi with an egg still inside her, applying that internal visual to halflings is deeply terrifying.
I believe the name of the Cracked.com article hosting the image was "6 Animals Screwed Over By Evolution".
Ignoring the difficulty of a Small mother carrying and birthing a baby that'll grow to medium size, the adult blended-race PC will probably encounter all sorts of odd social reactions, from neutral/mildly irritating to outright hostility, from some family members, many NPCs, and (at least initially) other party members. Having included racism/Otherism themes in many Shadowrun games I've run, I can definitely caution it'll take the right mix of players to pull it off without it being disruptive or upsetting.
I'll need to check with him before posting his story here, but a local GM did recently have to sort through some difficulties and discomfort dealing with Small/Medium mixed-race romance recently.
I have to admit there is a squick-factor involved sometimes, but it seems to die back when the Small race involved is obviously not human. (I'm still mildly weirded out by a human/goblin* NPC romance in my homebrew sometimes)
*Not a Golarion goblin, thank God.
srsly, that would be like doin' a Muppet. D:
I really like the idea of this girdle being a workaround for couples of incompatible races to have children, though I guess it does lessen the impact of those miracle aasimar babies. Then again, how common can those aasimar births be? That girdle rental service is sounding like a fine practical solution for certain areas. It's certainly cheaper than wish magic, and that was my old go-to for such couples to get around those problems.
Here's a question though: Would any offspring of mixed race unions in turn be dependant on the girdle to have children themselves?
@Argentum Lupus and John Kretzer: I'll shoot you guys a PM so's this thread doesn't get too derailsy. :)
@DJEternalDarkness: No worries. The hips tend to throw people off.
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I thought you were a fifth dimensional entity like a benign Mxyzptlk or Star Trek's Q.Mikaze is as genderless solar butterfly from another aeon of existence. That's how I prefer to see it.The preferred term is "mermaphrodite".
I can't pull off either of their hats.
@Argentum Lupus and John Kretzer: I'll shoot you guys a PM so's this thread doesn't get too derailsy. :)...
Cool thanks
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Humans have done it quite often, and while Small size humans usually take medical intervention to give birth, a Caesarean (as per the name) is not advanced medicine, and clerical magic should help the mother survive it.
There was some discussion earlier about how shield other or rings of friend shield could be a great boon during childbirth, allowing a responsible father (or helpful family member of either gender) to take half of the trauma onto themselves.
The aid spell, if it lasted a heck of a lot longer (or you had a lantern archon on the scene casting it over and over, as the contractions hit**), might be useful as well, giving the mother-to-be a buffer of extra hit points to absorb potential injury before it happens (although it's arguable whether or not a tough childbirth would constitute hit point damage or Con damage, in game mechanics, but since it's something the game doesn't define, I'd go with hit point damage, 'cause it's already an abstraction of a crazy niche case anyway).
**And... now I'm picturing a Cleric or Summoner who works as a high priced midwife, calling or summoning up Lantern Archons to help with difficult childbirths (or, for cash to support needier folk, help rich ladies have easier and less traumatic childbirths).
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*Not a Golarion goblin, thank God.srsly, that would be like doin' a Muppet. D:
Hey!! Muppets/Goblins want some lovin' too!!!
Now I'm picturing a Cleric or Summoner who works as a high priced midwife, calling or summoning up Lantern Archons to help with difficult childbirths (or, for cash to support needier folk, help rich ladies have easier and less traumatic childbirths).
Summoner would get more out of it/be more profitable, since the Lantern Archon would be there for a minimum 5 minutes per use...
On the other hand, who is to say having a Lantern Archon on hand might not help speed the delivery...Probably still not going to be less than minutes however.
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Summoner would get more out of it/be more profitable, since the Lantern Archon would be there for a minimum 5 minutes per use...
On the other hand, who is to say having a Lantern Archon on hand might not help speed the delivery...Probably still not going to be less than minutes however.
Yeah, the cleric would be the one calling it, with planar ally, so they could have it out for a month or so, while the summoner would have to use multiple daily SLAs just for a single childbirth (or shell out a chunk of change for planar binding one).
Some sort of homebrew Extend SLA would be great for a Summoner commercializing their talents like this. There are a lot of utility options with extended use of a mephit or whatever.
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After recently seeing an X-ray of a kiwi with an egg still inside her, applying that internal visual to halflings is deeply terrifying.
I believe the name of the Cracked.com article hosting the image was "6 Animals Screwed Over By Evolution".
I remember that one. Nature can be a scary, scary thing...
And druids worship that. Think about it.
:D
That being said...
Ignoring the difficulty of a Small mother carrying and birthing a baby that'll grow to medium size, the adult blended-race PC will probably encounter all sorts of odd social reactions, from neutral/mildly irritating to outright hostility, from some family members, many NPCs, and (at least initially) other party members. Having included racism/Otherism themes in many Shadowrun games I've run, I can definitely caution it'll take the right mix of players to pull it off without it being disruptive or upsetting.I'll need to check with him before posting his story here, but a local GM did recently have to sort through some difficulties and discomfort dealing with Small/Medium mixed-race romance recently.
I have to admit there is a squick-factor involved sometimes, but it seems to die back when the Small race involved is obviously not human. (I'm still mildly weirded out by a human/goblin* NPC romance in my homebrew sometimes)
*Not a Golarion goblin, thank God.
srsly, that would be like doin' a Muppet. D:
I really like the idea of this girdle being a workaround for couples of incompatible races to have children, though I guess it does lessen the impact of those miracle aasimar babies. Then again, how common can those aasimar births be? That girdle rental service is sounding like a fine practical solution for certain areas. It's certainly cheaper than wish magic, and that was my old go-to for such couples to get around those problems.
Here's a question though: Would any offspring of mixed race unions in turn be dependant on the girdle to have children themselves?
My quick'n'dirty(butnotlikethat) solution is the old d% chance of taking, for reproductive purposes, after mother or father (or mother2 or father2 or well you get the idea), with the failure results indicating mule-like sterility. However, some might find that unacceptable due to the idea of magic bleeding over into the offspring being thematically inappropriate - to this, I say, hello Sorcerer Bloodline inspiration. Besides, there's also the option of producing heroes and villains straight out of traditional folklore, where one is not considered of a differing race than one of the parents, but is noted as having the blood of other without being a spellcaster. Someone who is the result of such a union might be the scion of an affair between, as a random example, a harpy and an elf; while the default assumption is that, based on their ecology, a harpy will be the more probable result, you could end up with a rather scruffy elf who happens to have a very compelling voice and a knack for archery. Or, if a half-orc and a centaur decide to have a relationship that goes well beyond platonic and off into uncomfortable territory for some, you might end up with a burlier centaur who looks like the unattractive 'baser' traditional Greek savage sorts, or a somewhat more attractive half-orc who happens to have legs that would make Chun-Li's looks small by comparison, and endurance to put her peers to shame.
What's more, I'm still not convinced that the, pardon the phrase, deployment of offspring would be quite as problematic as the aforementioned kiwi example. Consider, even among humans, the size disparities that exist, and the fact that some are comparable to the sizes of demihuman races. I'm pretty sure there's a number of NBA stars who didn't pop out of the womb as gigantic babies - they started off possibly 'normal' size, and the combination of diet, environs, and growing conditions is what resulted in their freakish tallness. :D
As such, given the recurring example of halflings and humans crossing, the intimacy would be manageable within reason and with patience, and I would expect the resultant offspring, while in the womb, would be more likely to be on the larger end of standard halfling embryo-to-fetus size, rather than the small end of human embryo-to-fetus size. The child might be a hefty order, but not outside of what is plausible for a halfling, unless you explicitly want that part of the drama - otherwise, spring the anticlimax on the expectant parents. Then, as the child begins to feed during the first few months of life, have it have an appetite outsized to its halfling parent (or maybe right-sized for a halfling, scaled up to a human, meaning BOTTOMLESS PIT HUNGER CHILD), meaning that normal nursing will be insufficient, leading to having to spend a lot more on dairy than anticipated, all the while the child growing from delivery size to human infant size in short order, and leading to the obligatory state of 'hilarity ensues'.
Just an example. I like the idea of folk tale type growing situations happening, as much because of the magic of the child's conception as the ways that adaption could and might take place.