Sinister Adventures LLC - Nick Logue's New Gaming Company


3.5/d20/OGL

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It will come out when its ready, as I have already paid a year ago I guess I can be very patient.


It's been at least a year I've been waiting on this as well. I want the final product but I'm content to wait. It will come when it comes, I just need to remember the URL of the site for updates.


Nothing new posted on the webpage - any updates folks? This kind of delay reminds of Robert Jordan (RIP) and George R.R. Martin.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

From the Sinister Forums:

July 2nd:

lou wrote:

Hey everyone, here's the latest update:

1. I have seen, written a third of it, edited and returned to Tim the 1st half of Chapter 5 - Final Showdonws. I'm hoping to receive a second draft after this weekend. So call Chapt 5 30% done. When I have the 2nd half it'll be 60% done. Then the proofing chain and stat blocks to finish.

3. I have received the 5th (and hopefully final) draft of the Fire as She Bears ship-to-ship combat subsystem. I will try to edit this week, then playtest it next week. With luck I can get it through the proofing chain the week after.

4. I have not yet received Adam Daigle's mystery monsters; however, I'm hoping to see them before mid July. Editing and proofing will be only a few days, there, so no hold up.

5. Last I heard John Ling was solidly into Chapter 3 on the Pathfinder conversion. I'm hoping he'll be done with everything except Chapter 4 in the next two weeks.

Ok, so what does that mean to all of you? Well, it does me my personal goal of getting this into Nick's hands in time for a Gencon run isn't going to happen. With luck -- and once again absolutely NO promises because too much depends on things and people over which I have no control -- I'll hand the completed manuscript off to Nick before Gencon.

That timing will be good. I spoke to Nick in the UK the other day, and he sounds like he's keeping much of his summer free for Sinister. We may even see some Indulgences this Summer/Early Fall. Maybe. I'm not promising.

After I hand the final to Nick there are three more steps:

1. One final pass by Nick
2. Layout
3. RELEASE!

July 3rd:

lou wrote:
How prescient. I just received Adam Daigle's mystery monsters, and they are everything I could hope.

July 19th:

lou wrote:
New update coming soon...


Hopefully the wait for this ends soon. I'd love to have the happy dilemma of what books I might want to cut when going to Fur Fright this year.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

METAUPDATE!

7/20:

Louis Agresta wrote:

1. The first draft of the first half of Chapter 5, Final Showdowns is done. It has been through development and sent off to stat block land.

2. I have received the second half of Chapter 5, Final Showdowns. It is in its second development pass. A little more back and forth then off to stat block land.

note - talking in halves of chapter 5 is not as odd as it seems. The chapter contains the conclusion to the two story arcs that wind through all of razor coast: a minor arc and a major arc. It's a natural division to split the chapter in half. The first half of chapter 5 concludes the minor arc, the second half concludes the major arc.

3. As it turns out, I have not had a breathing moment to touch the Fire as She Bears combat system.

4. Adam Daigle's mystery monsters have completed stat block edit and been sent off to proofer #1.

5. John is on chapter 4 with the PF conversion.

I'm still hoping to get a draft to Nick before Gencon, although the timing is looking very, very tight. No promises, but I'll keep you posted.

7/24:

Louis Agresta wrote:

1. Back and forth from Stat Block Land on the first half of Chapt 5. Stat blocks are likely around 1/2 done.

2. Development completed on 2nd half of chapt 5 and it has been sent back to Mr. Hitchcock for further work.

3. Daigle's monsters back from Proofer 1. They need some tweaks. Tweaks underway.

7/31:

Louis Agresta wrote:

So here's the pre-Gencon update.

First the bad news. I will not deliver the manuscript to Nick before Gencon.
Here's the status:

1. Daigle's secret monsters are back from proofing in both PF and OGL versions. DONE

2. Mr. Hitchcock will not be able to resume work on the 2nd half of chapter 5 until after Gencon.

3. I expect to receive the 1st half of chapter 5 from the Ling9000 before Gencon, but will not get it into the proofing chain until after Gencon as I need to give it a solid development/writing/editorial pass.

No more predictions on timeframes. I let myself make predictions when the pieces were not in my control, and I ain't gonna do it again.

And that's the status.

8/16:

Louis Agresta wrote:

1. Completed the major editorial pass on the 1st half of chapter 5 (30 pages). The 1st half of chapter 5 is awaiting its stat blocks. I expect to get that back from the Ling9000 this week, then a quick review and the first half of Chapter 5 enters the proofing chain.

2. Tim Hitchcock was away this week. He's back and incorporating the massive hunk of development notes I wrote in response to the 2nd half of chapter 5. Here's hoping for the final draft of 2nd half of chapter 5 this month. After the final draft of the 2nd half of chapter 5 arrives I'll give it the editorial, cut it down to about another 30 pages, and simultaneously he Ling9000 will generate the stat blocks. Then it's off to the proofing chain.

3. Meanwhile, while I wait on Hitchcock, I've begun the first editorial pass on the Fire as She Bears subsystem. It's 64 pages as written, though I expect that to shrink. Editorial pass. One more playtest. Editorial pass then off to the proofing chain.

4. John Ling is well into his PF conversion. Last I checked before derailing him with Chapter 5, he's either at the end of chapter 3 or the beginning of chapter 4.

8/23:

Louis Agresta wrote:

Just heard from the Ling9000 that he expects to get me the first 1/2 of chapter 5 this week, which means it'll go into proofing this week.

Just heard from Tim Hitchcock that he's back from a family visit and working on the last draft of the second (and final) half of chapter 5. He hopes to get that to me this month.

I'm talking to some noted freelancers about pitching in to put the final polish on Fire As She Bears, so I can spend my time finalizing the manuscript.

And that's the latest update.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Wow, I almost forgot abouth this...

Dark Archive

Hugo Solis wrote:
Wow, I almost forgot abouth this...

Ditto.


I so over it that I really don't care anymore. Teaches me a lesson - NEVER prepay for ANYTHING!!

The Exchange

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Lou wrote:

Here is the latest update:

1. The first half of Chapter 5: Final Showdowns is written, developed, edited, statted and has been sent to Proofer #1. It is 50 pages long.

2. The second half of Chapter 5: Final Showdowns is developed, back from the writer's third pass, and I am exactly 2/3rds of the way through editing it. Then it goes to statting and then to proofer #1. Right now, before stat blocks, it is 33 pages long.

*note - these are MS Word manuscript pages, not publication pages*

3. To speed matters along, I tapped the combined talents of James MacKenzie and David Schwartz to put the final edits, polish, mechanics fixes and playtest rounds on the Fire as She Bears ship-to-ship combat system. You can see some of their credentials here and here. James in particular has done quite a bit of historical work not reflected here.

After 3 writing passes, 2 development passes and an edit, it seemed best to turn this over to additional writers. This way work is being done on it in parallel to my finishing the rest of the manuscript. As it stands, this subsystem is 64 pages long; so if we did that work in serial, this would drag out another month.

After everything is back from the proofers, what remains?

1. Continuity check by yours truly.
2. Turn the finished manuscript over to Nick.

How long will this be?
I expect the manuscript I hand to Nick to be on the order of 175,000 words, broken out roughly like this:

Intro - 2,480
Chapt 1 - 29,851
Chapt 2 - 28,699
Chapt 3 - 16,979
Chapt 4 - 25,521
Chapt 5 - 40,000
Appendix I - Fire As She Bears - 20,000
Appendix II - 12,000

To give this perspective, the adventure portion of a Paizo AP is around 35k words per volume or 210,000 for an entire AP.

Just sayin.


Epic stuff, if I take the meaning of this, we're more or less getting just a few thousand words shy of a full adventure path that Paizo would put out. Maybe, just maybe this will be out in time for Halloween this year. I'm not holding my breath but hope creeps eternal...

Sovereign Court Contributor

Just cross posting for anyone who wants a refund.

Liberty's Edge

No refund required here Louis. Thanks for keeping us updated though.

What's the best way to let you guys know I'd like my printed copy of Razor Coast in PFRPG rules when its ready? If that's an option (I think I previously ordered it as 3.5).


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I just hope that Nick maganes to pull it out... hopefully this year.

Thank gosh lots of us paizonians are patient and overly understanding folk...or else there would be a few of us freelancer already hanging on the gallows!


~looks at the fresh gallows that I just made and the rope that has "Hogo Solis" on it~ Hmmmmnnnnnnnn..... Where is our first "victim"?

Sovereign Court Contributor

He's right here!

*shoves Hugo from behind sweat beading his lip*

Right here! Right here! I'm with you! Hang him!


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

darn it, should have known better!

*runs for dear life*

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pawns, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
delabarre wrote:
Lou wrote:


I expect the manuscript I hand to Nick to be on the order of 175,000 words, broken out roughly like this:
Intro - 2,480
Chapt 1 - 29,851
Chapt 2 - 28,699
Chapt 3 - 16,979
Chapt 4 - 25,521
Chapt 5 - 40,000
Appendix I - Fire As She Bears - 20,000
Appendix II - 12,000
To give this perspective, the adventure portion of a Paizo AP is around 35k words per volume or 210,000 for an entire AP.

No offense to anyone involved but I'd be way more excited if the majority of that was Nick's work and vision. I'm worried the book'll be a mishmash of inconsistent grammar and writing styles.

Paizo Employee Managing Developer

I might be wrong, but I thought the majority of that total word count is Nick (and if not him, then certainly in the tone of and under the direction of Nick.) Lou and Hitchcock are long time friends of Nick's and have gamed with him for years. I actually can't think of a better pair of folks to pick up some of the heavy lifting.
(Extra credit if you can separate who did what between Hitchcock and Nick in Carnival of Tears.) ;)

The Exchange

SirUrza wrote:
No offense to anyone involved but I'd be way more excited if the majority of that was Nick's work and vision. I'm worried the book'll be a mishmash of inconsistent grammar and writing styles.

Well, that's what the editing process is for.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Aubrey the Malformed wrote:
SirUrza wrote:
No offense to anyone involved but I'd be way more excited if the majority of that was Nick's work and vision. I'm worried the book'll be a mishmash of inconsistent grammar and writing styles.
Well, that's what the editing process is for.

Actually, that's what the DEVELOPMENT process is for. It's the developer who goes into a game product and makes sure that the entire document matches the author's vision BUT also works within the game rules and has one constant "voice" (in the case of works with multiple authors) and that the whole thing works.

The editing process is for fixing language and math.

The Exchange

I stand corrected. So who is the developer in this instance? Nick?


At this point, I don't care who's writing it, editing it, developing it, or crapping on it. I just want it in my hands. And it better be the best gods-damned gaming product ever produced! If not, I swear to God I'll burn it on my fire pit.

The Exchange

You want it in your hands before or after someone has crapped on it?

Sovereign Court Contributor

Aubrey the Malformed wrote:
I stand corrected. So who is the developer in this instance? Nick?

Hey Aubrey,

I'm the developer. And the senior editor/PM. And the editor. And a proofreader (1 of 3). And an additional designer. Oh, a little bit of art direction.

SirUrza,
Artistic vision, design and writing (something more than 75% of the text not including the ship-to-ship subsystem) are pure Nick. He's the Lead Designer. Think of it this way: the masthead on a product often holds many names, but we still recognize one person who wrote it.

Adam,
You're exactly right. I chose Tim Hitchcock (with Nick's concurrence) precisely because he collaborated so frequently and thoroughly with Nick. That and the Ennie award winning mastermind can write like no one's business. He even included a sidebar at one point of the climax titled, "If Nick Were Your GM"

I think it works. Though I will say this: I'm underpaid. :)

- Lou


Please tell Nick that we want him back. I for one would love to have him get back into writing adventures.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Sharoth wrote:
Please tell Nick that we want him back. I for one would love to have him get back into writing adventures.

+1

Hook Mountain Massacre will have a special, deranged, ogre-hook-up-yours place in my heart, forever. What a sick, twisted, outstandingly excellent adventure it was ...

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Louis Agresta wrote:
Just cross posting for anyone who wants a refund.

Not a refund at all, Lou. When the original pre-pay offer came down the pike, I was about to be down-sized into the unemployment figures, and I couldn't afford to buy any hobby product.

These days, to show solidarity with the project, I'd be happy to pay. (I assume the current price would be more on the scale of $80 - $100 dollars?)

Sovereign Court Contributor

Chris Mortika wrote:
Louis Agresta wrote:
Just cross posting for anyone who wants a refund.

Not a refund at all, Lou. When the original pre-pay offer came down the pike, I was about to be down-sized into the unemployment figures, and I couldn't afford to buy any hobby product.

These days, to show solidarity with the project, I'd be happy to pay. (I assume the current price would be more on the scale of $80 - $100 dollars?)

Cool. I was concerned when one poster mentioned "...eat a loss." Even as a hired gun, that would be utterly unacceptable to me (and Nick). I just want people to know they can email Nick for a refund.

Today's price? Darned if I know. Let's noodle it: at 1750,000 words its 5 of 6 AP volumes. For Chapt 5 (written by Hitchcock and - a little - by me) to keep pace I'd add more art and a few maps. Not sure how that'll work out. The rest is a art rich as an AP. Nick posted his plan to give away the upcoming Indulgences to pre-order people for free. Maybe that balances? Not my department.

But if you priced RC on wordcount at $12-$15 per its AP equivalent (lose a few $ of an AP volume because no one does quality like Paizo and there aren't 6 covers) it'd put today's price at around $60-$75 for about 145,000 words of sandbox campaign & setting and around 30,000 words of ship-to-ship Age of Sail subsystem. Worth it?

Dark Archive

Yeah I am not happy about the wait. But on the other hand with how things are turning out I will get a very good bargin on what I ended up paying for what I will end up getting. I see it more as a patron project now that I didn't get much in the way of voicing my opinion. Just paying up front so a book can be created I want.


Aubrey the Malformed wrote:
You want it in your hands before or after someone has crapped on it?

Depends...if it's Nick or Tim then I'll take mine with crap because usually what they crap is pure gold gaming nuggets!!! :D

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pawns, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
hedgeknight wrote:
Aubrey the Malformed wrote:
You want it in your hands before or after someone has crapped on it?
Depends...if it's Nick or Tim then I'll take mine with crap because usually what they crap is pure gold gaming nuggets!!! :D

I just threw up a little in my mouth.

The Exchange

hedgeknight wrote:
Aubrey the Malformed wrote:
You want it in your hands before or after someone has crapped on it?
Depends...if it's Nick or Tim then I'll take mine with crap because usually what they crap is pure gold gaming nuggets!!! :D

Get help.

;-)

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Louis Agresta wrote:
But if you priced RC on wordcount at $12-$15 per its AP equivalent .. it'd put today's price at around $60-$75 for about 145,000 words of sandbox campaign & setting and around 30,000 words of ship-to-ship Age of Sail subsystem. Worth it?

That depends entirely on the particular needs of the customer. I'm in the market for a good 3.5 (rather than Pathfinder) product, and I favor sandboxes over linear adventures, and I have the cash free at the moment, so it sounds like a good buy to me.

I confess, I'm betting that Nick is going to take another hit, filling pre-orders at the pre-order price, when the product has increased so substantially in the meanwhile.


Louis Agresta wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:
Louis Agresta wrote:
Just cross posting for anyone who wants a refund.

Not a refund at all, Lou. When the original pre-pay offer came down the pike, I was about to be down-sized into the unemployment figures, and I couldn't afford to buy any hobby product.

These days, to show solidarity with the project, I'd be happy to pay. (I assume the current price would be more on the scale of $80 - $100 dollars?)

Cool. I was concerned when one poster mentioned "...eat a loss." Even as a hired gun, that would be utterly unacceptable to me (and Nick). I just want people to know they can email Nick for a refund.

Today's price? Darned if I know. Let's noodle it: at 1750,000 words its 5 of 6 AP volumes. For Chapt 5 (written by Hitchcock and - a little - by me) to keep pace I'd add more art and a few maps. Not sure how that'll work out. The rest is a art rich as an AP. Nick posted his plan to give away the upcoming Indulgences to pre-order people for free. Maybe that balances? Not my department.

But if you priced RC on wordcount at $12-$15 per its AP equivalent (lose a few $ of an AP volume because no one does quality like Paizo and there aren't 6 covers) it'd put today's price at around $60-$75 for about 145,000 words of sandbox campaign & setting and around 30,000 words of ship-to-ship Age of Sail subsystem. Worth it?

~thinks for a minute~ Oh, I don't know. ~pulls out my debit card~ So when do I pay?

~grins~ It sounds like even paying $75 would be a steal.

Dark Archive

Chris Mortika wrote:
I confess, I'm betting that Nick is going to take another hit, filling pre-orders at the pre-order price, when the product has increased so substantially in the meanwhile.

I think that Nick is happy enough to take that loss. If RC is published and will be the high end product we expect, normal sales will probably cover this loss.


Like a lot of folks on here, I just want a copy of the finished product. Preferably in Pathfinder format. Outside of that, I don't mind waiting as long as there is something eventually.

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6

One thing...the adventure part of an AP isn't the whole enchilida. So if you're pricing comparables, an AP chapter is more like 60,000 - 65,000 words. Or 300,000+ for 5 volumes.

Sovereign Court Contributor

Russ Taylor wrote:
One thing...the adventure part of an AP isn't the whole enchilida. So if you're pricing comparables, an AP chapter is more like 60,000 - 65,000 words. Or 300,000+ for 5 volumes.

Russ is exactly right. I should have said the adventure part of the AP. My bad. Still I did the $ math right, no? I put our imaginary price for our imaginary (as yet) product at a little over half a full AP price at the low end. Which would be the right end, so still at an estimated $60.

EDIT: And of course that would be print. PDF? $18? $20?

Anyway, back to work. Can't noodle this fantasy any more. Have to work on making it not a fantasy. :)


Louis Agresta wrote:
Russ Taylor wrote:
One thing...the adventure part of an AP isn't the whole enchilida. So if you're pricing comparables, an AP chapter is more like 60,000 - 65,000 words. Or 300,000+ for 5 volumes.

Russ is exactly right. I should have said the adventure part of the AP. My bad. Still I did the $ math right, no? I put our imaginary price for our imaginary (as yet) product at a little over half a full AP price at the low end. Which would be the right end, so still at an estimated $60.

EDIT: And of course that would be print. PDF? $18? $20?

Anyway, back to work. Can't noodle this fantasy any more. Have to work on making it not a fantasy. :)

I would gladly pay $60 for a print copy. IMHO you might be pricing it (and the PDF version) too low.


Sharoth wrote:
It sounds like even paying $75 would be a steal.

You're right - it would be a steal...and you would be the victim! C'mon folks, 75 bucks or even 60 bucks for a gaming product? Are you serious?


hedgeknight wrote:
Sharoth wrote:
It sounds like even paying $75 would be a steal.
You're right - it would be a steal...and you would be the victim! C'mon folks, 75 bucks or even 60 bucks for a gaming product? Are you serious?

~shrugs~ Granted, that is a bit expensive, but if it is good enough, then it would be worth it. And yes, I have spent more than that on gaming stuff before.


Spoiler:
I'd pay that much for an Orcus. I'd almost pay that for Lamentations of the Flame Princess, if I only had it to spend. :(

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

hedgeknight wrote:
C'mon folks, 75 bucks or even 60 bucks for a gaming product? Are you serious?

hedgeknight, Ptolus pre-ordered at $80, and is currently selling for about $250 or $300 on eBay when a copy appears.

A single Adventure Path from Paizo retails at $120. The hardcover edition of the first adventure path came onto the market at $50, and it was mostly a re-print.

I'm restricting myself to adventures with a few rules thrown in, since those compare to the product in question.

Dark Archive

hedgeknight wrote:
Sharoth wrote:
It sounds like even paying $75 would be a steal.
You're right - it would be a steal...and you would be the victim! C'mon folks, 75 bucks or even 60 bucks for a gaming product? Are you serious?

Yup. Ptolus preorder, shipped overseas through Paizo. Been there, done that.

And worth every cent.

Happy to have preordered both Razor Coast and AGC, I might add.

Grand Lodge

Chris Mortika wrote:
hedgeknight, Ptolus pre-ordered at $80

Indeed, I did not pre-order Ptolus, and therefore paid the $120 retail...

I also bought Necromancer Games' "The City of Brass" Boxed Set, for the MSRP of $75 upon its release...

There were (and still are) many gaming products that cost over $60 (and most of them IMHO are well worth the price)...

I'm sorry that you may have missed these fine gaming products...

-That One Digitalelf Fellow-


Digitalelf wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:
hedgeknight, Ptolus pre-ordered at $80

Indeed, I did not pre-order Ptolus, and therefore paid the $120 retail...

I also bought Necromancer Games' "The City of Brass" Boxed Set, for the MSRP of $75 upon its release...

There were (and still are) many gaming products that cost over $60 (and most of them IMHO are well worth the price)...

I'm sorry that you may have missed these fine gaming products...

-That One Digitalelf Fellow-

Don't be sorry, DF - I haven't missed out on anything. I have a catalog of gaming products that would sink a ship, both in print form and in pdf. Have spent thousands of dollars on gaming - from products, to travel to cons, to hotels, scenarios, to online support - you name it, and I've paid for it in some form or fashion.

If I gamed every day for the rest of my life, I wouldn't run out of products, modules, or ideas. Therefore, at my age (quickly approaching 48 years), I've become somewhat frugal of what I purchase.
My current system of choice is Castles & Crusades - for $80 bucks, I could buy a $#!+load of product and game for months if not years. Plus, I never (okay, rarely) pay FULL price for anything. There's just about always a used copy somewhere for sale. I'm patient, and I find them.

So, not to be an ass, but you fellers can spend all your dough on these high priced products if you wish. That's cool - it's your money. As for me, I prefer to be a bit more frugal.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

hedgeknight, you're not coming off as an ass at all. You have a set of priorities, and you're holding to them. And, happily, you don't expect us all to have the same priorities.


Well, it's been at least a year and maybe two since I paid for this and then his Anarchist's GM's handbook. I;m not pre-ordering another blessed thing until I get these books. Although the one does sound interesting. But I bit for patronage on the Frozen Empires project for Open Design....

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