Sinister Adventures LLC - Nick Logue's New Gaming Company


3.5/d20/OGL

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Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Card Game, Rulebook Subscriber
Dark_Mistress wrote:
Wicth I imagine thats why he got Lou and others to help. He knew he could no longer do it, due to RL.

That sort of misses my point though. Saying he couldn't do it due to real life is suggesting that a writing/publishing gig is not real life. Money changed hands. Promises were made. It was a job, not a hobby. Seeing the product through to the end and making the time to do it is part of real life.

Believe me, I understand RPG writing is not the top paying job out there. But once you've been paid, its a job, regardless of the amount you were paid. And if you asked to be paid in advance, you were making a commitment to make the time to do the job.


The whole situation just makes me sad. Nick wanted to make some RPG books that really did sound twelve shades of awesome. He tried to run it alone, but for some reason or other, he couldn't make it happen. He took money for it, to make it economically possible.

And now, a good long while later, the books still aren't out. He has offered to refund all the preorders, which is the decent way of doing it. If you're angry about having paid but not getting anything, get the refund. If you're angry about not getting the book(s), keep waiting. It seems to be going forward, and hey, if you've waited this long...

But the truly disastrous part is that he doesn't want to keep writing RPG stuff anymore. If true, I will miss his work.

It's easy to hammer someone for not delivering what you expect. It's far more difficult to do the delivering.


Well said.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32

Indeed. Can I flag that post for Awesome?


Feel free. (YAYIGOTAPOSTFLAGGEDFORAWESOMEYAY!!!!)

The Exchange

Sissyl wrote:

The whole situation just makes me sad. Nick wanted to make some RPG books that really did sound twelve shades of awesome. He tried to run it alone, but for some reason or other, he couldn't make it happen. He took money for it, to make it economically possible.

And now, a good long while later, the books still aren't out. He has offered to refund all the preorders, which is the decent way of doing it. If you're angry about having paid but not getting anything, get the refund. If you're angry about not getting the book(s), keep waiting. It seems to be going forward, and hey, if you've waited this long...

But the truly disastrous part is that he doesn't want to keep writing RPG stuff anymore. If true, I will miss his work.

It's easy to hammer someone for not delivering what you expect. It's far more difficult to do the delivering.

Yup.

I know people are frustrated. We all know Nick ain't going to be Businessman of the Year. But work is proceeding. As said, he could have just walked but he hasn't. He is trying to fulfil his commitments. My (admittedly relatively few) interactions with Nick indicate he's a good guy, and actually his desire to fulfil his promises by hiring help reflects well on him, in my view. And frankly, any money saved in not preordering probably would have been spent on hookers and blow, so that's a good thing too.

(Disclaimer: I am not suggesting that anyone preordering any Sinister products has ever purchased illegal drugs or prostitutes, or would do so.)


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Aubrey the Malformed wrote:


(Disclaimer: I am not suggesting that anyone preordering any Sinister products has ever purchased illegal drugs or prostitutes, or would do so.)

Why?


Aubrey the Malformed wrote:
But work is proceeding. As said, he could have just walked but he hasn't. He is trying to fulfil his commitments.

Or alternatively, taking a more cynical view, it is possible that he has already spent the money from the pre-orders. And while refunding a person here or there is possible, he no longer has the resources to refund everyone. So instead of just saying, "Look I can't get it done, sorry. Here's your money." He has to string along a lot of folks, many who probably have forgotten entirely about the project.

I don't claim that is actually the case, but one could see how someone could get into that situation.

This is why I personally am against most types of pre-orders, especially if not from a "big" company (who are more likely to make their employees meet specific deadlines). When faced with doing a job you have yet been paid for or doing a job that you already have been paid for, it is only human nature to focus more on the one you haven't yet been paid for. You've already been "rewarded" for the other, so emotionally it has been "checked off" of the to do list.

Dark Archive

Billzabub wrote:


We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Again, I don't know Mr. Logue, and quite frankly, no one posting here, with the exception of one or two people, know him either. He's had problems getting a product out and keeping people reasonably informed, but few people here, if any, know what he has going on in his life or what else is on his plate. Regardless, being bad a running a business does not equate to not caring. If he didn't care, he could have simply just refunded everybody and said, "Sorry folks, it's not going...

Yes. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Thats one way of looking at it your last sentence. The charitable view. Mine is alot less charitable.

I had little hope it coming realitively soon before Dark mistress update, which puts a rather larger nail in teh coffin as to anytime it coming out. So this will be the last post on harping on it. I've sent the refund email for everything. Good luck to the rest of you.

The Exchange

pres man wrote:
Aubrey the Malformed wrote:
But work is proceeding. As said, he could have just walked but he hasn't. He is trying to fulfil his commitments.
Or alternatively, taking a more cynical view, it is possible that he has already spent the money from the pre-orders. And while refunding a person here or there is possible, he no longer has the resources to refund everyone. So instead of just saying, "Look I can't get it done, sorry. Here's your money." He has to string along a lot of folks, many who probably have forgotten entirely about the project.

Actually, I suspect you are right to some extent - but I don't think he spent the money on anything except stuff for the project (as opposed to a champagne lifestyle). It will doubtless be better to issue the book than repay people out of what would ultimately be his own pocket. On the other hand, he is offering refunds too so I don't think we can really complain, since that is probably costing him personally.

pres man wrote:
This is why I personally am against most types of pre-orders, especially if not from a "big" company (who are more likely to make their employees meet specific deadlines). When faced with doing a job you have yet been paid for or doing a job that you already have been paid for, it is only human nature to focus more on the one you haven't yet been paid for. You've already been "rewarded" for the other, so emotionally it has been "checked off" of the to do list.

Well, I didn't pre-order either, though mainly because, as a small firm, I was concerned about Sinister's security with my card details. I don't think your view of "human nature" stacks up so much in this instance. Nick has a wife to provide for and so he got a proper (full-time) job, and it turned out to be a much bigger deal than he thought (the job, I suspect, rather than the wife). It is natural to concentrate on that.

Dark Archive

I do not mind waiting for the stuff Nick proposed. Even if it takes 2+ years longer than anticipated*.
I can fully understand that the new job takes far more time than he thought it would.
I also understand that he doe not frequent his webpage every day.

But I am really, really disappointed that he seems not to be able or willing to stop by once a week for a few minutes to read the shoutbox and/or post some updates on the forums.

*I wait far longer for the next G.R.R.Martin book to come out.

Dark Archive

My understanding is all the preorder money went into art. From my understanding he went pretty high priced with full color art on par with Paizo stuff.


I am content to wait on this, I still like the idea and the freebies to be included are keeping me hoping it will be well worth the wait.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

I sympathize with your opinion carmachu, but don't understand what you mean about "after Dark Mistress's post." She copied what Lou said - the proofing is done (I know, I did it) and the next step is the final layout and go-ahead from Nick. Layout is still a big job, but we are still moving forward - thanks to Lou's massive coordination effort and all sorts of people helping it along in their free time.

If I'd wanted paid to proof 150k words... or even just for the 50 odd hours work it cost me... I wouldn't have had the chance to help out Nick and a community I love to get an awesome piece of work published after the driving force bit off more than he could chew.

Sure it takes longer than anyone hoped - I've a full-time job, a kid on the way, Lou's just became a father and has a business to run, mxypltk is busybusybusy.... but it will surface. It's closer now than before Lou stepped up, if you don't need a refund I recommend waiting.

Yeah, I believe I said the same six months ago - but the manuscript has ballooned since the beginning :-) Like most folks, I'd be much happier if Nick appeared on the sinister site every few weeks, tidied it up and gave updates. In the absence of Nick, Lou's keeping everyone updated with how his work is going - and I know it's honest. And real. And worth waiting for.

So - not vaporware, just flipping-late-ware.

Dark Archive

carborundum wrote:

I sympathize with your opinion carmachu, but don't understand what you mean about "after Dark Mistress's post." She copied what Lou said - the proofing is done (I know, I did it) and the next step is the final layout and go-ahead from Nick. Layout is still a big job, but we are still moving forward - thanks to Lou's massive coordination effort and all sorts of people helping it along in their free time.

i wasnt going to come back and comment anymore, but since I was addressed:

I first of all, the proofing isnt ALL done: ship to ship still isnt done, if you read that right. But it wasnt that update, but the one prior: the proofer, while said it was done or progressing, the biggest bugaboo is once its back in Nick's hands, getting it printed. i dont have alot of faith there.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Thanks for explaining - I understand now. I'll not drag it out by protesting or expanding on your points. I hope that you take another look when it finally sees the light of day, as it is going to be a great product.

All the best!

Dark Archive

More news and man is this going to be a massive book. Well worth the preorder price, IMHO.

Lou wrote:

Another update, but first I just want to put out there my original mandate. My original mission was edit the manuscript and deliver a 3.5 version -- the plan was always to get someone else to convert it to PF -- ready for layout. That turned into re-develop the manuscript, design a big chapter (chapter 5) from scratch, deliver in 3.5 and pathfinder, add new monsters, write new sections, do some art direction, pull in a team of freelancers and volunteers and manage them, and then I went and complicated life by deciding to run the Fire As She Bears contest. So originally a ship-to-ship battle system was not even part of the Razor Coast anyone pre-ordered or expected, just to be clear. Now why am I laying all that out? Because I want to make the (interim) claim that I've fulfilled my original mandate: I am now holding a completed manuscript in word doc form of Razor Coast, 3.5 version, no Fire as She Bears.

What remains?

John Ling is currently converting it to Pathfinder
James Mackenzie is leading a small team finishing Fire as She Bears

Once those are in my hands and FaSB is proofed, the completed and expanded 3.5 and PF versions of the layout ready manuscript will go to Nick.

I'm pleased because its a big milestone. I'm displeased because more remains to do before I can hand this off to Nick and (eventually) into your hands.

Peace,
Lou

PS The 3.5 version, no FaSB of Razor Coast in manuscript form contains 343 pages in Word, Calibri 11. It is 159,180 words long.

The Exchange

I'm a bit surprised they are still doing a 3.5 version, since 3.5 isn't supported by either Paizo or WotC. I appreciate that a lot of people will have the books and may be playing it, but even so it seems slightly odd.

Sovereign Court Contributor

Aubrey the Malformed wrote:
I'm a bit surprised they are still doing a 3.5 version, since 3.5 isn't supported by either Paizo or WotC. I appreciate that a lot of people will have the books and may be playing it, but even so it seems slightly odd.

Hey Aubrey,

The manuscript was handed to me in 3.5, I'm guessing because he started it around the edition wars and before Paizo announced Pathfinder. For my part it just seemed more straight forward to finish 3.5 and convert the resulting finished product.

Also many people ordered RC in 3.5 and some still desire it that way, so a 3.5 version must be delivered.

Lou

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

I know I'm interested in the product because it's D&D 3.5, which is the base game of my group, since we all own the 3.5 books.

Lou, if I were interested in coming aboard and making a financial commitment at this point, whom should I contact? Nic?

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Louis Agresta wrote:

Hey Aubrey,

The manuscript was handed to me in 3.5, I'm guessing because he started it around the edition wars and before Paizo announced Pathfinder. For my part it just seemed more straight forward to finish 3.5 and convert the resulting finished product.

Also many people ordered RC in 3.5 and some still desire it that way, so a 3.5 version must be delivered.

Lou

We love you Lou!!! Hang in there and keep up the great work!!!


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Dark_Mistress wrote:
My understanding is all the preorder money went into art. From my understanding he went pretty high priced with full color art on par with Paizo stuff.

So far, all art I've seen from Sinister is with the same artists paizo commissions. So, top notch art guaranteed.


~grins~ Well, as the old saying goes, Nothing good is quick or easy. I have a feeling that this is going to be well worth the wait. I actually wish that I ***HAD*** preordered. I think that this will be well worth the investment, despite the loonnngggg wait.

Shadow Lodge

Aubrey the Malformed wrote:
I'm a bit surprised they are still doing a 3.5 version, since 3.5 isn't supported by either Paizo or WotC. I appreciate that a lot of people will have the books and may be playing it, but even so it seems slightly odd.

I'm surprised they're doing a PFRPG conversion, myself. You would think after this long, they would push to get the damn thing actually out the door, and maybe then work on a free web enhancement with PFRPG conversion notes.

3.5 may not be getting support from WotC, but I think that because one of the main goals of the Pathfinder RPG game was 3.5 backwards compatibility, you can say that Paizo IS continuing to support it. I still regularly buy 3.5 (and even 3.0) material from DriveThruRPG.

Sovereign Court

Seriously, as I don't have much trouble going from 3.5 to PFRPG, and the reverse, I'd settle for any version.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Something I've never been super clear on: Are there going to be different versions of the book depending on rules versions? If so, how will pre-orderers make the distinction of which version they want?

Sovereign Court Contributor

Chris Mortika wrote:

I know I'm interested in the product because it's D&D 3.5, which is the base game of my group, since we all own the 3.5 books.

Lou, if I were interested in coming aboard and making a financial commitment at this point, whom should I contact? Nic?

You would contact Nick. May I make a request, though? Just hold off a bit until it's in print. I haven't spoken to Nick about his release schedule. Who knows? It may be tied to his school year. My understanding is he'll be releasing it print on demand -- last I heard that was the plan -- so it shouldn't go out of stock. Might as well wait until a release date is imminent, right? Your call, of course, Chris.

John Ling -- the Pathfinderization mavin -- works fast. We call him the Ling9000, so the wait for a Pathfinder version shouldn't be long. Also, if I hand both versions to layout at once, it may reduce the total delivery time because the layout person can create the book template with both versions in mind. That's the hope anyway.

From a personal perspective, my responsibility and involvement end at the point I hand off the manuscript to Nick; so I'd like that handoff to be as complete as possible.

Thanks for the good wishes, folks!

The Exchange

Louis Agresta wrote:
Aubrey the Malformed wrote:
I'm a bit surprised they are still doing a 3.5 version, since 3.5 isn't supported by either Paizo or WotC. I appreciate that a lot of people will have the books and may be playing it, but even so it seems slightly odd.

Hey Aubrey,

The manuscript was handed to me in 3.5, I'm guessing because he started it around the edition wars and before Paizo announced Pathfinder. For my part it just seemed more straight forward to finish 3.5 and convert the resulting finished product.

Also many people ordered RC in 3.5 and some still desire it that way, so a 3.5 version must be delivered.

Lou

Fair enough - thanks for the update.


I echo the thanks for keeping us in the loop so to speak.


I'd love to hear from someone who requested a refund, and actually got a refund. How long did you have to wait for said refund? Or even a reply to your request??

I think you know where I'm going w/ this...


I just would like to know when I'll get a copy

Dark Archive

FenrysStar wrote:
I just would like to know when I'll get a copy

I believe October 2008, unfortunatly knowing the unknowning has driven Nick completely and utterly insane, not to mention caught him in a temporal flux. So for him it is still 1973.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32

Well, we're going to need a DeLorean, some uranium and a road long enough to get us up to speed. We'll never break the time barrier at this speed!

Dark Archive

James Martin wrote:
Well, we're going to need a DeLorean, some uranium and a road long enough to get us up to speed. We'll never break the time barrier at this speed!

Did Nick slip all the way back to 1955 now?

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32

Hmmm. Unknown. He may be LOST in time! Quick, someone notify JJ Abrams and get Carleton Cuse and Damon Lindelof high. We might need a cast of thousands just to figure that Nick died in the first season and has been writing his modules from Purgatory the whole time.


BenS wrote:

I'd love to hear from someone who requested a refund, and actually got a refund. How long did you have to wait for said refund? Or even a reply to your request??

I think you know where I'm going w/ this...

Bump.

My request was over 5 weeks ago. No response, no refund.

Lots of ill will at this point.

Dark Archive

Well, if the product does not arrive within the first half of next year, then I will simply cut my losses and ask for a refund then.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Card Game, Rulebook Subscriber

When I saw this many new posts I thought maybe there was news. Often it is said that no news is good news, but I suspect that this sort of situation is the exception to that rule.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32

No news, just mockery and bitterness. It's like a gathering of RIFTS players...

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

For me, the entertainment from this thread has been well worth the money you guys paid.

I joke because I love.

-Skeld

Sovereign Court

Hey Lou keeps posting on the (What's left of) Sinister boards that the PFRPG conversion is almost done, and I believe the 3.5 one is already.

Now the question is : will Nick make it available at long last (honestly, I'd even take just a .pdf at this point), or will he chicken out like a teensy landlubber ?

I have still hopes to launch a long maritime campaign using this, and other similar D20 stuff, and I'd really like to play this.

Especially, since it's written ... should not be much more to do. right ? Right ?


James Martin wrote:
No news, just mockery and bitterness. It's like a gathering of RIFTS players...

~LAUGHTER~


Stereofm wrote:

Hey Lou keeps posting on the (What's left of) Sinister boards that the PFRPG conversion is almost done, and I believe the 3.5 one is already.

Now the question is : will Nick make it available at long last (honestly, I'd even take just a .pdf at this point), or will he chicken out like a teensy landlubber ?

I have still hopes to launch a long maritime campaign using this, and other similar D20 stuff, and I'd really like to play this.

Especially, since it's written ... should not be much more to do. right ? Right ?

I can covert it to Pathfinder if need be from 3.5 although if given a choice I'd rather Pathfinder but t this point I'll take what I can get.

Sovereign Court

According to the latest update, both versions are ready, and now the job goes back to Nick to layout and and put online.

Best,


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

In other words, it's up to Nick to make an appearance again and do some work on this. I'm hoping for greatness, but his total vanishment over the last months worries me, given the state of his site. :-(


Maybe he'll show and finish this thing up...if so, it will be a Christmas holiday miracle!


Heh, maybe 2011 I'll finally get this book.

Dark Archive

FenrysStar wrote:
Heh, maybe 2011 I'll finally get this book.

Hey lets not get ahead of ourselves here. :)

Though last I heard from a post from Lou is it is close to being done and handed back to Nick for the final go.


Which means if the stars are right I can run Razor Coast in time for the end of the Mayan calendar.

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