I am curious, is there any plans to do a psionics book?
Although, I don't think a new psionic book would be necessary for the Pathfinder RPG. I would like to see psionics have their own niche in the Pathfinder world. Rather than an after thought. Sort of like WOTC did with Eberron and Sarlona. I love psionics and believe they go hand in hand with Lovecraftian storylines.
Also, I think they can be a breath of fresh air for those who enjoy a new take on magic. Unfortunately, as I read many of the post during the RPG SuperStar contest. I noticed a lot of people do not care for them as I do. However, there was hope, when several contestants submitted psionic creatures and villains. Many people commented on needing to take a second look at psionics in their own campaigns or lack of.
Anyway, rather than a psionic book. I think a cleaning of the rules (such as they have done with the Alpha rules) will be fine. More important to me at least, would be the future inclusion of psionics with the Pathfinder world and perhaps a Pathfinder Adventure Path that showcases a psionic villain or an entire adventure (which could also act as a gazatteer for the PathFinder world) dedicated to giving us a window of how/what/where psionics are in PathFinder.
Although, I don't think a new psionic book would be necessary for the Pathfinder RPG. I would like to see psionics have their own niche in the Pathfinder world. Rather than an after thought. Sort of like WOTC did with Eberron and Sarlona. I love psionics and believe they go hand in hand with Lovecraftian storylines.
Also, I think they can be a breath of fresh air for those who enjoy a new take on magic. Unfortunately, as I read many of the post during the RPG SuperStar contest. I noticed a lot of people do not care for them as I do. However, there was hope, when several contestants submitted psionic creatures and villains. Many people commented on needing to take a second look at psionics in their own campaigns or lack of.
Anyway, rather than a psionic book. I think a cleaning of the rules (such as they have done with the Alpha rules) will be fine. More important to me at least, would be the future inclusion of psionics with the Pathfinder world and perhaps a Pathfinder Adventure Path that showcases a psionic villain or an entire adventure (which could also act as a gazatteer for the PathFinder world) dedicated to giving us a window of how/what/where psionics are in PathFinder.
I love psionics and agree whole-heartedly.
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Psionics should always be an optional component of the rules. I always use them and love them dearly, but much like the Presidential race it is an extremely polarizing issue.
I would love to see Psionics support, and Psioncs content in future products/adventure paths. It is open content, look at the SRD.
More Psionics!
When I think of alien intelligence, travel through the astral plane, aboleths, etc., I have come to consider psionics well-suited to a certain niche in D&D. In the beginning, they may have been on the fringe as an optional element, but now they are part of the core 3.5 SRD, and I strongly believe they should get more support than mere fluff while all of the other core SRD 3.5 classes get a crunch makeover.
As it is, I have begun guestimating a revised psion based on the Charm Domain for Clerics and the Enchantment School for specialist Wizards as far as a Telepath Psion is concerned.
I was also heartened by the inclusion of so many psionic villains in the RPG Superstar contest and hoped that would change a few opinions, and I still hold out for an improved sentiment towards the class.
I'm not opposed to psionics, but sometimes it seems like a lot of extra stuff to keep track of unless everyone at the table is completely up to speed. I suppose if you changed the description of Concealing Amorpha, I would be on board for including it in the core rules.
Not sure how much Paizo likes psionics. I don't recall any psionics anywhere in RotRL.
I've never had to use psionics, but if it's part of the SRD then I say Paizo should take advantage of that and update psionics. I know they aren't crazy about it, but I'm sure there's someone in Paizo who likes psionics enough to update it for the PfRPG.
Yes, someone in Paizo... or someone else who has done a lot of Psionics work before? :D
I wouldn't mind seeing updated psionic classes added to the core. Not that I'd get to use it much, I'm the only one whom likes it in my group. ^^;
Personally, as a DM, I have found psionics to be extremely tedious and good for slowing down gameplay. In fact, it's gotten to the point where I just outlawed them all together. Maybe it's just me, but I find that it takes an awful lot of work on my part to keep up to date with psionics. I prefer the core rules having only magic/melee abilities with psionics being an add on that individual groups can choose to implement or not. I believe that putting them in the core rules would make for much more complaining by my players when I tell them that I don't allow psionic PCs in my campaign.
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Personally, as a DM, I have found psionics to be extremely tedious and good for slowing down gameplay. In fact, it's gotten to the point where I just outlawed them all together. Maybe it's just me, but I find that it takes an awful lot of work on my part to keep up to date with psionics. I prefer the core rules having only magic/melee abilities with psionics being an add on that individual groups can choose to implement or not. I believe that putting them in the core rules would make for much more complaining by my players when I tell them that I don't allow psionic PCs in my campaign.
I never saw psionics slowing down the game. No more than sneak attacks, spellcasting and certainly not as much as grappling. All game material, even the stuff in the Player's Handbook, is optional. If I were, for example, playing Oriental Adventures, there would be no Clerics, Druids or Wizards and my players would better be okay with it. The DM should always have the right to decide what he wants to include in his game. Including Psionics in the Core Rulebook would just make it easier for people to understand what psionics are about instead of relying on things they heard in their FLGS or read on some message boards. In 3.0, I never could grasp the psionic rules. All those power point stuff seemed so weird to me. I also never took the time to read the rules. I just had a few looks in the SRD and decided that psionics were complicated. But than came 3.5 with those great previews in the Dragon and I learned to stop worrying and loving the XPH.
Honestly, more often you find psionics in sci-fi not fantasy.
On the other hand I like to play a soulknife or a psionic monk. I honestly beleive that psionics belong with monks. It just makes them so much better.
Why do I not mention the manifesters? Well I've never been a big caster player, I often choose to forgo spellcasting even on paladin's and rangers.
If psionics are added to core I beleive that psionics and magic should interact together just like arcane and divine magic interact with each other.
Actually thinking about it, there was a pair of threads that were requesting an extra race and Pathfinder specific classes, a psionic race and core psionic classes would probably be the way to go.
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Honestly, more often you find psionics in sci-fi not fantasy.
However, psionics as presented in the XPH/SRD is far more fantasy than sci-fi.
If psionics are added to core I beleive that psionics and magic should interact together just like arcane and divine magic interact with each other.
Yes, this is how it should be, and for the most part is by the default magic transparency option. All that needs to change from how it's presented in the XPH/SRD is on the skill front--Use Psionic Device needs to be rolled into Use Magical Device, Psicraft needs to be rolled into Spell craft, etc.
There's also a discussion of this here.
What would everyone think of a Psionic Monk being the core Monk class?
I think it would improve the monk class considerably.
Yeah, I wasn't thinking back to the original Psionics Handbook released where the opposite was true. After my post I was going through EPHB and saw that they had gone with transparency as official.
Go check out my attempt here and tell me what you think. I tried to keep it as close to the original as I could, with a few tweeks here and there.
Personally, as a DM, I have found psionics to be extremely tedious and good for slowing down gameplay. In fact, it's gotten to the point where I just outlawed them all together. Maybe it's just me, but I find that it takes an awful lot of work on my part to keep up to date with psionics. I prefer the core rules having only magic/melee abilities with psionics being an add on that individual groups can choose to implement or not. I believe that putting them in the core rules would make for much more complaining by my players when I tell them that I don't allow psionic PCs in my campaign.
Your kidding right?
Well dang, guess that means I've never actually read a sci-fi novel then. Because I can't think of a single one I've read that someone didn't have some sort of "psionics"...that also disqualifies both Star Wars and Star Trek from the genre since they both have characters and creatures with "psionic" abilities.
Psionics in 3.5 are really not complex - they are, in essence, just a slightly different way of casting spells. Something like Tome of Battle is a lot more complex to get your head around than psionics. I've had a player spend a couple of hours reading the expanded psionics handbook and come away understanding it all and keen to play a Psion. I then spend an hour or two reading some of it myself, and also became keen to give them a go. Many players tend to have some preconceived ideas about psionics in D&D, but really, you don't know until you try.
Based on our games so far, I have found them to be well balanced, interesting, and no more of a burden for me as DM - I only need to know the basics like how power points and augmentation works, then check the powers as they come into the game. Really, it's the same as spells in most aspects.
I've proposed an alternative Sorcerer class that uses the basic psionics mechanics (i.e. spell points), but uses arcane spells - the latest version is here. The concept is to use the ideas of psionics, but in a way that anyone who only knows PHB can very easily understand and use without having to learn any new terms or rule-sets.
Psionics is something I would like to see. It has been done in fantasy but not as much as magic I concur. However I tend to see psionics as a kind of magic unto itself albeit with a different source of power. Divine and Arcane manipulate forces without one's self to achieve a desired result. Psionics works by manipulating forces within one's self. Beyond this key difference Psionics is just one more flavor of magic.
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Well dang, guess that means I've never actually read a sci-fi novel then. Because I can't think of a single one I've read that someone didn't have some sort of "psionics"...that also disqualifies both Star Wars and Star Trek from the genre since they both have characters and creatures with "psionic" abilities.
Quite right about the last two. Star Wars and Star Trek are very much science fantasy.
I VOTE "NO PSIONICS!"
Psychic powers are a Sci-Fi special effect that have NO PLACE in fantasy!
I VOTE "NO PSIONICS!"
Psychic powers are a Sci-Fi special effect that have NO PLACE in fantasy!
Never run for your life on athas have ya.
I'd be happy to see them in Pathfinder as an optional ruleset-
I've always played Psionics as something "other" in my campaigns- the province of Abberations and those touched by them, both thralls and hunters. Makes for a great supernatural force that most occult experts have no real experience with.
Never run for your life on athas have ya.I VOTE "NO PSIONICS!"
Psychic powers are a Sci-Fi special effect that have NO PLACE in fantasy!
Wrong, but that was for a *specific setting,* where psionics fit well. Again, psionics are sci-fi, not fantasy. I think the core concept of D&D is fantasy, and I think we, or they, should stick with a single genre. Otherwise, why stop there? Why not completely mix technology with magic a la Arduin Grimoire?
because it can fit very well. to me psionics feat right in with REH and Lovecraft.Whats more fantasy then mastering the mystic forces of your own mind.I guess different strokes and all.But psionisc fit well just not the weak oh there magic but different 3e junk.
Wrong, but that was for a *specific setting,* where psionics fit well. Again, psionics are sci-fi, not fantasy. I think the core concept of D&D is fantasy, and I think we, or they, should stick with a single genre. Otherwise, why stop there? Why not completely mix technology with magic a la Arduin Grimoire?Never run for your life on athas have ya.I VOTE "NO PSIONICS!"
Psychic powers are a Sci-Fi special effect that have NO PLACE in fantasy!
**cough cough** Eberron **cough cough**
I VOTE "NO PSIONICS!"
Psychic powers are a Sci-Fi special effect that have NO PLACE in fantasy!
I used to think so as well until Eberron came along (well not NO PLACE, but very few places). I never really liked Dark Sun overly much. I think the post apocalyptic aspect of the setting did real damage fantasy psionics. If you can find a copy (maybe in a library) of Secrets of Sarlona, I highly recommend you give it a read through. Eberron's used of Dream and Mind invading outsiders really helps sell psionics as fantasy in that setting.
Psionics in a fantasy setting need to be carefully done to avoid Sci-Fi-ish elements over powering fantasy ones, but it can be done very well.
While this next bit is a Sci-Fi example it could just as easily apply to a Fantasy setting.
For those of you who've been watching/following Stargate: SG-1 you should hopefully pick up on this idea quickly. During the series (for those who haven't watched or kept up with show) the main characters became aware of 'Ascended' beings that have deity like powers. These beings were once human like but evolved into forms of pure energy (starting see the Fantasy part?) because of their advanced mental powers. In human form they could do seemingly magical things, such as heal and revive the recently dead. These Ancients were very benevolent but did not intervene in 'mortal' affairs (save were Plot demanded).
Near the end of the series the main characters encounter another group of 'ascended' beings. However these were not benevolent and drew power from mortal worshipers. Unlike D&D divine magic this was really a one sided relationship as the 'priors' or priest didn't draw on divine power, they used their own mental powers(granted initially their deities but not sustained) to perform miracles and attributed those miracles to their deities.
Strip these stories of their starships, interstellar travel, automatic weapons, and techno-babble. What's left could very easily be place in a Fantasy context. It really is a question of how it's portrayed. Is it Magical/Mystical or Technological/Evolutional. SG-1 writers did a very good job of making their Psionic beings both mystical/spiritual and scientific.
The D&D treatment of psionics in the XPH/SRD is NOT sci-fi. In fact, it is is better at representing meditative magical traditions than the vancan magic of the PHB.I VOTE "NO PSIONICS!"
Psychic powers are a Sci-Fi special effect that have NO PLACE in fantasy!
Fine! Then use psionics in lieu of vancian magic, and drop either clerics & druids, or wizards & sorcerors - or all four!
What is the internally consistent concept of magic? Or better yet, what is magic? At the very core of Pathfinder, where does magic come from and how does it work?
Rather than building classes and frameworks of powers and then rationalizing things from there, I'd rather start with a concept of what magic is & how it works AND THEN build classes, frameworks, or powers (or spells) afterwords.
If psionics is magic of the mind, then what's magic?
I used to think so as well until Eberron came along (well not NO PLACE, but very few places). I never really liked Dark Sun overly much. I think the post apocalyptic aspect of the setting did real damage fantasy psionics. If you can find a copy (maybe in a library) of Secrets of Sarlona, I highly recommend you give it a read through. Eberron's used of Dream and Mind invading outsiders really helps sell psionics as fantasy in that setting.
Psionics in a fantasy setting need to be carefully done to avoid Sci-Fi-ish elements over powering fantasy ones, but it can be done very well.
While this next bit is a Sci-Fi example it could just as easily apply to a Fantasy setting.
...
Strip these stories of their starships, interstellar travel, automatic weapons, and techno-babble. What's left could very easily be place in a Fantasy context. It...
Frankly, thanks for proving my point! All supernatural power in SG-1 is internally consistent - it's all super-science, with ultimately scientific explanations. The religiousity of Priors & the Goa'uld (forgive misspelling) is a plot device to manipulate their followers, they do not, in fact, have divine power! If *your example* represents a fantasy game, then what's the purpose of a *cleric* and *divine magic* at all? The power of an *actual diety* would *supercede & grossly overpower* any trickstery mentalism!
Furthermore, in SG-1, or B5, etc., they don't have multiple magic systems, which essentially amounts to 3 different sets of physical laws.
Simply put, psionics overlaps with both arcane & divine magic, and that's just not necessary.
I love psionics personally. Though much of my groups is still gunshy about them ever since the Psionics Handbook (refered to as the Book of Broken Mentality usually) from 2nd edition. I would like to see source and support for them, but i do not feel they should be included in the core book. They are a peripheral system with the exception of some settings (Dark Sun and the Deryni Chronicles for example).
I would rather see a new source book for psionic alone with Jason giving the same treatment to the core psionic classes that he did the core classes in the main book. Including psionics would add considerably to the size and thus cost of the core book. I think it would be better to give them a thorough treatment of their own in a seperate volume instead of a watered down version tacked into the magic section of the main book.
As for psionics in fantasy, I see no problem with it at all and it can enhance the game for some. I dislike the mentality that limits them to scifi or modern only.
I like that magic and psionic transparency that equates them to each other. SR and PR should be the same thing, otherwise one or the other becomes far too powerful and including both can be a bit cumbersome at times. At the basic level, I have always seen arcane/divine/psionics/ki abilites as maniuplating the same root energy. The only difference being flavor and power source (sometimes mechanics). Arcane magic = world...divine magic = deity...psionics = personal...ki abilities = some personal, some world. Thus what defends against one should defend against the other. Otherwise why shouldnt divine magic penetrate arcane spell resistance if psionics can? Afterall, the power comes from a deity itself (in most settings) and what non-epic mortal magic defense could hope to withstand that sort of power?
Just a few thoughts.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
because it can fit very well. to me psionics feat right in with REH and Lovecraft.Whats more fantasy then mastering the mystic forces of your own mind.I guess different strokes and all.But psionisc fit well just not the weak oh there magic but different 3e junk.
Well in REH's Conan, and the Conan RPG got this right, *everything* not "natural" is sorcery. Pure and simple. You seem to think that psionics is *better* than the arcane + divine models, and I see your point, and can respect that.
Fine, then, get rid of arcane & divine magic and replace it with psionics (or call it sorcery, whatever).
What I don't think there's a need for, is huge amounts of overlap in the classes, concepts, & systems in D&D (or Pathfinder), and psionics overlaps with both Arcane & Divine magic.
Fine! Then use psionics in lieu of vancian magic, and drop either clerics & druids, or wizards & sorcerors - or all four!The D&D treatment of psionics in the XPH/SRD is NOT sci-fi. In fact, it is is better at representing meditative magical traditions than the vancan magic of the PHB.I VOTE "NO PSIONICS!"
Psychic powers are a Sci-Fi special effect that have NO PLACE in fantasy!
I'm sorry, but your counterargument is not really countering what Azzy has posted. Psionics fans are not trying to get rid of any other source of supernatural powers, only to add another option well ingrained in fantasy myths and real-world cultures. So, I don't really see your point.
What is the internally consistent concept of magic? Or better yet, what is magic? At the very core of Pathfinder, where does magic come from and how does it work?
Well, that's something you should ask yourself, not anyone interested in playing or adding psionics to their games. The PHB does not explain arcane and divine magic in an exhaustive fashion either, so what'd be wrong with the classic "internal powers" amgle? As long as the DMs have a satisfying explanation about how psionics works in their settings, I don't think there's need for revamping the rest of the supernatural powers.
Rather than building classes and frameworks of powers and then rationalizing things from there, I'd rather start with a concept of what magic is & how it works AND THEN build classes, frameworks, or powers (or spells) afterwords.
Well, then what's your concept of magic, as used in your own settings? Do you need a solid conceptual framework in order to explain arcane magic and divine magic to your players? I'm a Mage: The Awakening, Ars Magica and Witchcraft fan, and let me tell you, d20 settings only provide shallow-deep explanations for the origins and causes of their supernatural powers. However no one's complaining about wizards and clerics, yet psionics are still viewed with startled suspicion. This I don't understand, really.
If psionics is magic of the mind, then what's magic?
See, that's where you get it wrong. Psionics are not 'magic of the mind', psionics are supernatural powers fueled by will and mental might. "Magic", as you use it, is a very vague concept. Do you also call 'magic' to divine prayers and the favors of the gods? What about miracles? Or the origins of supernatural creatures? Think first about those issues, and you're going to have a much more clear picture of psionics, arcane and divine powers in your games. But only if you need such explanations. The rest may live without worrying sick about it.
Regards,
ZOOROOS
Sorry if this reposts. My early posting did not seem to appear:
I love psionics personally. Though much of my groups is still gunshy about them ever since the Psionics Handbook (refered to as the Book of Broken Mentality usually) from 2nd edition. I would like to see source and support for them, but i do not feel they should be included in the core book. They are a peripheral system with the exception of some settings (Dark Sun and the Deryni Chronicles for example).
I would rather see a new source book for psionic alone with Jason giving the same treatment to the core psionic classes that he did the core classes in the main book. Including psionics would add considerably to the size and thus cost of the core book. I think it would be better to give them a thorough treatment of their own in a seperate volume instead of a watered down version tacked into the magic section of the main book.
As for psionics in fantasy, I see no problem with it at all and it can enhance the game for some. I dislike the mentality that limits them to scifi or modern only.
I like that magic and psionic transparency that equates them to each other. SR and PR should be the same thing, otherwise one or the other becomes far too powerful and including both can be a bit cumbersome at times. At the basic level, I have always seen arcane/divine/psionics/ki abilites as maniuplating the same root energy. The only difference being flavor and power source (sometimes mechanics). Arcane magic = world...divine magic = deity...psionics = personal...ki abilities = some personal, some world. Thus what defends against one should defend against the other. Otherwise why shouldnt divine magic penetrate arcane spell resistance if psionics can? Afterall, the power comes from a deity itself (in most settings) and what non-epic mortal magic defense could hope to withstand that sort of power?
Just a few thoughts.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
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I would rather see a new source book for psionic alone with Jason giving the same treatment to the core psionic classes that he did the core classes in the main book. Including psionics would add considerably to the size and thus cost of the core book. I think it would be better to give them a thorough treatment of their own in a seperate volume instead of a watered down version tacked into the magic section of the main book.
I definately concur with this. Psionics isn't core, and while I like the system it should not be forced down the throats of dissenters. A separate book - Pathfinder Psionics or something like that - would nevertheless be welcome.
I always get depressed in these psionics threads. I get tired of defending and advocating for psionics, so I usually let my more eloquent peers do it for me. But just a few comments about including psionics in the PFRPG rulebook (rather than only in a supplement).
Too many people against this idea have either no true understanding of how current psionics (3.5!) really work, or tangential experience. Yes, earlier versions--and there were many--were broken to one degree or another. But 3.5 nailed them (and I've been a fan since 1st edition psionics). They're not unbalanced, and they're a flavorful addition. So if your argument is that psionics is a "broken" system, that's simply not my experience. Nor that of many others who have taken the time to really play through the rules.
Other people are hard-nosed about what's allowed at their table; typically following the "core" and "non-core" divisions. That's fine. But there are those who won't allow psionics b/c they're not core (which is not true, btw). So all we're asking for is a tiny slice of the massive PFRPG to showcase a single class. And by choosing the Soulknife (see other psionics thread), this would allow a foothold and rebuttal to the "no, they're not core". And take up very few pages in doing so. So you can see why it's a big topic of discussion in these various threads.
Yet another argument is that "that's not fantasy, that's sci-fi". I'm sorry, but I played Dark Sun for years, and there was no hint of sci-fi there. Even if that wasn't your cup of tea, the point is that psionics are just another power source. We have 2 external (arcane & divine magic), and 1 internal (psionics--more if you include the ki-like abilities of Monks). What's sci-fi about "mind over matter"? Also, there is a middle ground, that being sci-fantasy. And we already know Paizo has plans for this, w/ their hints about other planets. As well as places on Golarion that employ psionics. So it's just waiting to be explored.
The modest argument made by most of us is thus this: throw us a bone! Give us a handful of pages to introduce a class like the Soulknife, and thereby at least a chance to give fence-sitters the opportunity to try out psionics. And this is the class that won't be using power points, if that's your hangup. If you don't care for it, you don't lose anything by ignoring it. But those who want it, and the followup book dedicated to psionics, can at least feel like we're not the red-headed stepchildren of D&D. And we have a chance at convincing others to give the system a try...
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I think there are two main reasons people don't like psionics: the fact that it is a different rule-set they would have to learn (not that different as it turns out, but nevertheless it does have its quirks); and flavour (which is simply a personal issue - I can justify psionics in a fantasy setting myself quite easily, but others can't and that is their taste and their entitlement).
I would prefer Paizo to concentrate on the core 3 books for their RPG, and not have large chunks others would feel uncomfortable about, because a straight adaptation of the core 3 is more likely to be successful than a book where psionics have been grafted on, and I want Pathfinder to be a success. I would urge them to seriously consider giving a Pathfinder treatment to psionics too, though - I would buy that, and I suspect many others would too. But some wouldn't, and would be put off by a core Pathfinder book that had psionics in too.
I definately concur with this. Psionics isn't core, and while I like the system it should not be forced down the throats of dissenters. A separate book - Pathfinder Psionics or something like that - would nevertheless be welcome.
I'd personally love to see psionics integrated into the core, but I realize that's definitely the minority opinion. Maybe some psionic light stuff like the soulknife (or soulknife feats from Dreamscarred Press) would be fun. *shrug*
One argument for not doing a stand alone book is that, it's even more niche and so might not be as viable from the business standpoint. However, you counter that by making it more than just Pathfinder version of Expanded Psi Handbook and instead make it a full on treatment of the other worlds and sword and planet stuff that the Paizo folks have mentioned might be a stronger fit for psionics in Golarion. It would cover not just the psionic rules, but the setting material on the other planets as well as fluff about psionics in Golarion. Now that would be worth putting a separate book out for. :)
Oh, and they should use the Dreamscarred folks as freelancers on the Pathfinder psionics. They know the rules extremely well and have some great new options for it.
I always get depressed in these psionics threads. I get tired of defending and advocating for psionics, so I usually let my more eloquent peers do it for me. But just a few comments about including psionics in the PFRPG rulebook (rather than only in a supplement)...
Very well said. You are not lacking in eloquence at all.
This thread is redundant with another thread on the topic. I've stated my perspective there, and so should you.
A link would've been nice.