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The new skill theft combines open lock and sleight of hand. The only class that has it as a class skill is the rogue class.
Disable Device is another skill that only the rogue has as a class skill.
I personally think that Open Lock should not be included in theft. It should instead be included in disable device.
Many traps have a locking mechanism to allow bypass or activation. A rogue disabling the device may frequently be using 'open lock' anyway. A lock is a mechanical device not entirely unlike a trap (though usually smaller).
Someone who is adept at disabling a clock (a device) would probably do well disassembling a lock (another device - the major difference is this one doesn't move on it's own).
Since Disable Device is also the only skill that is a class skill for the rogue, this changes very little. Simply put, a rogue can choose to be good at opening locks and disabling traps or stealing from people in the market. For back story, one can certainly be more appropriate than another. For example, the dwarven locksmith will likely have a high disable device (open lock + disable device), but a low Theft. The street urchin might be the opposite.
And, petty thieves that try their hand at everything might be reasonably good at both.
Why aren't Disable Device + Open Lock together, and then "Theft" would be Search + Sleight of Hand? That seems a bit more logical to me. Granted, the mechanical aspects of searching and legerdemain are dissimilar, but since we're shooting for neat "packages" of skills, those seem to fit better than, I don't know, say, Open Lock and Sleight of Hand.
As a note, having a skill labeled "Theft" bugs the CRAP out of me. Can we rename it to something else, such as...subterfuge? Trickery? Something other than tying it to thieving?
I'm with you on that, but heck, what's in a name? I'll probably rename it for my campaign anyway.
P.S. "Trickery" and "Subterfuge" sound too WAY much like "Deception." But I can't think of a better one, offhand.
"Legerdemain"?
Although I must agree, if OL gets merged in with DD then calling the remaining Slight of Hand skill "Slight of Hand" is probably best.
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I wouldn't wrap Search with it though, only because other classes could be good at searching as well.
I agree. If you were to do that you'd go back to the problem in 3.5 where you have a character with a high Spot and low Search which essentially means he can only find things when he's not looking for them. Wrapping Search, Spot and Listen into Perception solves that problem.
Wrapping Search, Spot and Listen into Perception solves that problem.
But that creates a "super-skill," that is inherently better than every other skill in that it trumps Stealth, it trumps Craft (trapmaking), and it trumps secret doors, among a host of other things. Perception is just too good that way.
The Open Locks + Disable Device combo sounds appropriate.
I'd like to see Theft go back to Sleight of Hand; there are other uses besides picking pockets that it can be used for (palming/revealing daggers, cheating at cards, dropping live grenades in the BBEG's pockets... -er, sorry, d20 Modern slip there *blush*)
I'd also like to add that it's silly that Bards don't have "Theft" as a class skill. Sleight of hand tricks are extremely iconic for bards.
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Well the obvious thing would be to change it back to "Sleight of Hand". I wouldn't wrap Search with it though, only because other classes could be good at searching as well.
I agree -- as I posted on another thread, I think that just plain old 'Sleight of Hand' skill covering all of those things would be best, or making 'Sleight of Hand' a skill "category" similar to Craft or Profession (e.g. you could take Sleight of Hand (Disable Device) or Sleight of Hand (Theft) as separate skills).
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I'd also like to add that it's silly that Bards don't have "Theft" as a class skill. Sleight of hand tricks are extremely iconic for bards.
I agree. Moving OL over with DD would free up SoH (I too prefer that name to "Theft") to be class skills for both Thieves and Bards. Another point in favor of the proposed change.
I've always had picking locks as part of the Disable Device skill.
It's never caused a problem in the 3.X games I've run.
I agree. Moving OL over with DD would free up SoH (I too prefer that name to "Theft") to be class skills for both Thieves and Bards. Another point in favor of the proposed change.
Wow, sounds like agreement is almost unanimous on this one.
My only concern is that we make Sleight of Hand an "inferior" skill in this respect, insofar as it has VERY limited usage compared to, say, Perception. Is that a design consideration? Should one skill be worth a lot more or a lot less than another one? Or should they more or less balance out with each other? If not, I can see the need for tiered skills, which adds a LOT of needless complexity. If so, then when we roll some skills together, we need to give serious evaluation to the lone leftovers.
One thing I can see is to add extra stuff into Sleight of Hand; for example, fold Use Rope into it and rename it Handiwork or some similar appellation. Admittedly, UR isn't the greatest skill, but I'm sure there's other skill uses that require nimble hand-work rather than a mechanical intuition and steady hand such as open lock.
I agree. Moving OL over with DD would free up SoH (I too prefer that name to "Theft") to be class skills for both Thieves and Bards. Another point in favor of the proposed change.Wow, sounds like agreement is almost unanimous on this one.
My only concern is that we make Sleight of Hand an "inferior" skill in this respect, insofar as it has VERY limited usage compared to, say, Perception. Is that a design consideration? Should one skill be worth a lot more or a lot less than another one? Or should they more or less balance out with each other? If not, I can see the need for tiered skills, which adds a LOT of needless complexity. If so, then when we roll some skills together, we need to give serious evaluation to the lone leftovers.
I wouldn't say limited. I've seen many PCs nick quite a bit of cash via SoH in towns and cities (almost to the point of brokenness) and SRD SoH has an abuse that it can be noticed but not stopped by those with a high skill check (and is easier than even a Touch AC attack). I've read all kinds of mischief it can be used for (such as stealing a Wizard's spell component pouch).
I'm with a lot of other people on this.
Fold Open Locks into Disable Device.
Fold Sleight of Hand into Stealth or keep it as its own skill.
Do not call it theft. I don't want to play a lawful neutral rogue with the Theft skill.
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The Open Locks + Disable Device combo sounds appropriate.
I'd like to see Theft go back to Sleight of Hand; there are other uses besides picking pockets that it can be used for.
100% agree. I believe there are even 3.5 prestige classes with SoH as a prerequisite that have more to do with street magic and nothing to do with thievery.
We've been playing the Open Locks and Disable Device combination for years in the home games. I was surprised with the Theft skill.
Leave Sleight of Hand. If you want to power up SoH, combine it with the attack feinting from Bluff.
I'm with the majority here; combine Disable Device and Open Lock into one skill and call it Sabotage or even simply Disable Device and either incorporate SoH into Stealth or leave it Sleight of Hand.
I also support rolling OL into DD, however, it appears to me that they are only rolling skills that use the same key ability, and DD is Int while OL is Dex.
Well, that's easy enough to fix. We change the key ability of one of them to match the other. Suggestions? I'd vote for Dex.
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I feel really weird for saying this since it appears everyone agrees on this thread, but I do not mind combining sleight of hand & open locks. I will agree however that naming it theft does not work for me (the name does fit though).
The following is how I see these skills working together.
Open Locks requires fine manipulation (dex) as does sleight of hand. Disable device is more of figuring out how a trap or something else like that works and then rigging it so that it does not work anymore. To disable traps (main use for the skill) you do not need fine manipulation to do it. It is mainly just for figuring out how the device works and then how to stop it from working.
Hopes that makes sense. I was trying to be more clear about the distinction, but I do not feel confident that I did.
If they called it something else would you feel differently about the combinations?
I also support rolling OL into DD, however, it appears to me that they are only rolling skills that use the same key ability, and DD is Int while OL is Dex.
Jump was Str-based and got rolled into Acrobatics. Concentration was Con-based and got rolled into Spellcraft. The first one doesn't bother me, but the second one does.
Combining OL and DD doesn't bother me though, and I would prefer that and leave Sleight of Hand as-is.
You could fold Use Rope type stuff into Sleight of Hand, or call the skill Deftness (Dex) and it includes Sleight of Hand, Use Rope, and may Escape Artist stuff?
Disable Device and Open Lock going together seems to make sense, I mean bypassing, disabling, and or jamming a trap and bypassing, disabling, and or jamming a lock, seem like they should be the same skill set.
After re-reading the old Disable Device in the PHB, it does seem to step on the Open Locks skill. However I agree with NSTR that there is a mental aspect of solving traps that should be represented.
What could be done is rip out the physical parts of Disable Device and put them with Open Locks. Then put the mental parts of Disable Device in a new renamed skill.
Sleight of Hand (DEX) or Legerdemain or Prestidigitation
You are skilled at feats of manual dexterity.
Disable Device(physical) + Open Lock + Sleight of Hand.
Decipher Devices (INT)
You are skilled at solving puzzles, disarming complicated traps and figuring out where people might hide things, such as secret doors.
Disable Device(mental) + Search.
This would leave Perception with only WIS-based skills and put Search back in the INT category. Complicated traps are things like wall blade traps, pit traps, and the magical traps mentioned in the PHB.
Sleight of Hand (DEX) or Legerdemain or Prestidigitation
You are skilled at feats of manual dexterity.
Disable Device(physical) + Open Lock + Sleight of Hand.
What if it was called Nimble Fingers, or Deft Hands? That would fit this skill content better.
Yes either of those would be quite good names and would avoid any confusion between there being old and new versions of Sleight of Hand.
I will chime in and say that I think that Open Locks and Disable Device make a much better combination, whereas Sleight of Hand should either stand on its own, or, perhaps, be combined with Stealth (not, IMO, the best option).
Another vote for keeping Sleight of Hand as is (its pretty useful, if you think about what it actually does), and rolling open locks into disable device.
Looking back through the post I think we are saying the same thing but coming at it from different directions. I'll admit I'm not a lockpick, if picking a lock doesn't use any manual dexterity than yeah it should go in the Disable Device (mental) aspect in my example above.
Then our skills are exactly the same, and my argument would be that some parts of Disable Device require physical dexterity and those aspects should be put with Sleight of Hand.
Deft Hands (DEX) Disable Device(physical) + Sleight of Hand
You are skilled at feats of manual dexterity.
Decipher Device (INT) Disable Device(mental) + Open Lock + Search
You can figure things out like, how to sabotage things, how traps work, and where people might hide things.
How this would in gameplay is as follows:
In the 3.5 system, traps had a Search DC and a Disable Device DC. In the system I'm proposing they would have a Decipher Device DC and a Disarm Device(Deft Hands)DC. You have to figure out how to disable the device and then you physically have to do it.
Some difficult traps would be easy to disarm once you solve them. "Oh, I just press this button". These would be represented by a higher Decipher DC with a lower Disarm DC;
Some could be the other way, "I know how to do it, it's just going to be a bear to do it";
or any combination of the above.
Basically the same with that one added component.
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Making two skills to accomplish one function is probably not a good design option - it simply becomes a skill tax. A rogue (or other character) has to buy two skills to be able to achieve a particular task.
While it is certainly true that any complex task may have multiple parts and some are more Int and some are more Dex and some are more Perception (I know the button is here somewhere, but where?) for the sake of ease combining them into one function (Disabling the Device) is much easier.
Making the skill system more complicated for the sake of realism would only be good if it also increased the amount of fun at the table. Keeping track of and creating multiple aspects of the trap and having the player make multiple checks are likely to be more hassle than they are worth. At least, they would be for me and my players.
Yeah, but I'm turning four skills into two.
Disable Device, Open Locks, Search, Sleight of Hand become Deft Hands and Decipher Device.
And traps aren't any more complicated than before. In the DMG in 3.5, traps have a Search DC and Disable Device DC listed, those would just change to Decipher Device and Disarm Device DCs.
Wrapping Search, Spot and Listen into Perception solves that problem.But that creates a "super-skill," that is inherently better than every other skill in that it trumps Stealth, it trumps Craft (trapmaking), and it trumps secret doors, among a host of other things. Perception is just too good that way.
The problem for thieves - I don't know if this comes up in another thread - is that Perception is now Wisdom based rather then Intelligence. I don't know about anybody else, but that cripples my thieves ability to find traps. Now it's almost as though he needs someone ELSE to find the trap so he can remove it. However, no other class is allowed to use Perceitpon to find traps.
So, if you want to create a killer dungeon, put in a few traps at lower levels.
Khartan-
The Decipher Device, Deft Hands skills I outlined above fix this problem too. Search is moved out of Perception.
I'm just saying... :-)
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I also support rolling OL into DD, however, it appears to me that they are only rolling skills that use the same key ability, and DD is Int while OL is Dex.Jump was Str-based and got rolled into Acrobatics. Concentration was Con-based and got rolled into Spellcraft. The first one doesn't bother me, but the second one does.
Combining OL and DD doesn't bother me though, and I would prefer that and leave Sleight of Hand as-is.
D'oh. So they did. Anyhow, I agree that, if they are going to roll Open Lock, it should be into Disable Device, not SoH.
What about a sentence in the rule for the skill that states that it can be used with Dex or Int, whichever the PC chooses?
In other systems (such as the Cortex System by MWP) skills aren't tied to specific stats. Would this concept make skills too complex? Or would it ease backwards compatibility? Or make skill-users too powerful?
Khartan-
The Decipher Device, Deft Hands skills I outlined above fix this problem too. Search is moved out of Perception.
I'm just saying... :-)
Cool. I dig it. _I'm_ just saying - as it reads now in the Alpha, I see this as a problem.
I like that you are solution oriented.
Wrapping Search, Spot and Listen into Perception solves that problem.But that creates a "super-skill," that is inherently better than every other skill in that it trumps Stealth, it trumps Craft (trapmaking), and it trumps secret doors, among a host of other things. Perception is just too good that way.The problem for thieves - I don't know if this comes up in another thread - is that Perception is now Wisdom based rather then Intelligence. I don't know about anybody else, but that cripples my thieves ability to find traps. Now it's almost as though he needs someone ELSE to find the trap so he can remove it. However, no other class is allowed to use Perceitpon to find traps.
So, if you want to create a killer dungeon, put in a few traps at lower levels.
Yeah, as the "Thieves' Skills" go, this one really seems to slight the Thief.
Theft should be a rogue class ability only. Not a skill choice. Their is no spellcasting skill or weapon wielding skill. End of story. No other class should have access to a specially trained subset of theiving abilities.
Theft should be a rogue class ability only. Not a skill choice. Their is no spellcasting skill or weapon wielding skill. End of story. No other class should have access to a specially trained subset of theiving abilities.
Excellent point. So a cleric can take Theft as a skill? Even cross-classed, that's pretty absurd.