I agree that Disable Device and Open Locks should be combined into Disable Device.
However that leaves Sleight of Hand as a very weak skill to me. I would rename it Legerdemain and add in both the 'Create Distraction to Hide' and 'Feint' abilities from Bluff. Deception doesn't need them since it covers the rest of Bluff and Sense Motive as well.
In a like vein I would also add Ride to Handle Animal, change Acrobatics to cover Balance and Tumble (the dex based physical skills), and create Athletics which combines Climb, Jump, and Swim (the str based physcial skills).
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I agree. Moving OL over with DD would free up SoH (I too prefer that name to "Theft") to be class skills for both Thieves and Bards. Another point in favor of the proposed change.Wow, sounds like agreement is almost unanimous on this one.
My only concern is that we make Sleight of Hand an "inferior" skill in this respect, insofar as it has VERY limited usage compared to, say, Perception. Is that a design consideration? Should one skill be worth a lot more or a lot less than another one? Or should they more or less balance out with each other? If not, I can see the need for tiered skills, which adds a LOT of needless complexity. If so, then when we roll some skills together, we need to give serious evaluation to the lone leftovers.
IMHO Perception *should* be important -- in my games PCs roll Spot/Listen/Search all too often and yet almost none of the PCs (excepting Ranger and Rogue) have ranks in it. They don't bother to invest their 2+INT ranks into cross-class skills (i.e. they would only get 1 rank per level and rather prefer getting 2 ranks in class skills). My 16th level fighter PC in another group *does* have +8 in Spot, but half of that is due to Alertness and WIS 14.
The names used below are just placeholder names to distinguish them from earlier editions. You can use Disable Device and Sleight of Hand if you want or come up with better ones. Descriptions are summaries only, not full definitions. The parts I left out can be assumed to be the same as they are written in the PHB. (Like hiding a small object under observation).
Deft Hands (DEX; trained) or Nimble Fingers
You are skilled at manual dexterity. Use this skill to lift a purse and hide it on your person, palm an unattended object, hide a light weapon in your clothing, or perform some feat of legerdemain with an object no larger than a hat or a loaf of bread. You can manipulate objects with hidden mechanisms such as padlocks, tumbler locks and traps with hidden gears. The latter all require at least a simple tool of the appropriate sort (a pick, pry bar, blank key, wire or the like).
DC 10 palm a coin-sized object, make a coin disappear
DC 20 Lift a small object from a person
DC 20 Pick a very simple lock, physically disarm or reset a trap
DC 25 Pick an average lock, physically disarm or reset a complex trap
DC 30 Pick a good lock
DC 40 Pick an amazing lock
Try Again:
Untrained : Without actual training, you can't succeed on any Deft Hands check with a DC higher than 10 except for hiding an object on you body.
Analyze (INT, trained) or Deduction or Decipher Devices
You are skilled at solving puzzles and figuring out where objects are hidden like traps, secret doors, hidden compartments and other details not readily apparent. You can use this knowledge to figure out how to sabotage objects. The Perception skill lets you notice something, such as a hiding rogue. The Analyze skill lets a character discern some small detail or irregularity which could signal a trap or a secret door or a hidden compartment.
DC 10 Ransack a chest full of junk to find a certain item, jam a simple lock.
DC 15 Sabotage a wagon wheel
DC 20 Notice a typical secret door or a simple trap
DC 21 or higher Find a difficult non-magical trap (rogue only)*, disarm a simple trap
DC 25 Cleverly sabotage a clockwork device, disarm a complex trap
DC 25 + level of spell used to create trap Find a magic trap (rogue only)*
DC 30 Notice a well-hidden secret door
* Dwarves (even if they are not rogues) can use Analyze find traps built into or out of stone.
Add 5 to the DC if you attempt to leave no trace of your tampering.
Untrained: Without actual training, you can’t succeed on any Analyze skill with a DC higher than 20
Examples of Devices and Traps: These DCs replace the old Search, Open Lock and Disable Device DCs shown in the traps section of the DMG. (DCs shown are for illustration purposes only and actual numbers may need to be changed).
Simple padlock Analyze DC 0 Disable (Deft Hands) DC 20
Typical secret door Analyze DC 20 Disable (Deft Hands) DC 0
Wall Scythe Trap Analyze DC 21 Disable (Deft Hands) DC 18
Trapped padlock Analyze DC 10 Disable (Deft Hands) DC 25
Trapped Secret Door Analyze DC 25 Disable (Deft Hands)20
Deft Hands and Analyze replace the Disable Device, Open Lock, Search, and Sleight of Hand skills in the 3.5 PHB.
The Perception skill would replace Listen and Spot.
Theft should be a rogue class ability only. Not a skill choice. Their is no spellcasting skill or weapon wielding skill. End of story. No other class should have access to a specially trained subset of theiving abilities.
That would also go a long way towards expanding the "one-level class" (that Rogue has become under the proposed Pathfinder skill system) back to 20 levels. Consider me convinced.
That would also go a long way towards expanding the "one-level class" (that Rogue has become under the proposed Pathfinder skill system) back to 20 levels. Consider me convinced.The thing is, every class can use weapons, and there are Feats that provide some magical proficiency and especially so for psionics. Why wouldn't a fighter know how to disarm a trap. I've played Fighters with one or two ranks in Disable Device specifically for this purpose - it only takes one alarm bell to turn a simple entry into a massive combat.
Your point has merit. But my main issue was, by taking 1 level of wizard and then multiclassing to fighter for 19 levels, you don't get the spellcasting ability of a 20th level wizard. Under the original Pathfinder skill rules, you take 1 level of rogue, then 19 levels of fighter, and end up with the skills of a 20th level rogue. I'm all in favor of anything that promises to balance that out. Otherwise, you might as well just eliminate the rogue altogether (or make it a feat instead of a class or something). Under the proposed skill system, Xyll's suggestion is about the only way to maintain rogue as a viable class. Granted, I'd rather see the Saga/Pathfinder skill system scrapped, but I won't hold my breath on that.
The thing is, every class can use weapons, and there are Feats that provide some magical proficiency and especially so for psionics. Why wouldn't a fighter know how to disarm a trap. I've played Fighters with one or two ranks in Disable Device specifically for this purpose - it only takes one alarm bell to turn a simple entry into a massive combat.
Then it is simply make Theft a feat choice option with limited ability. However I can see your point with the disable device but, that skill as written is what the Rogue is for the most part. Allowing other classes to choose that skill kinda negates some of their use. Kinda like what they did in 3.0 to 3.5 with animal empathy they restricted it to a class ability and not a general skill due to the specific nature of the skill.
The new skill theft combines open lock and sleight of hand. The only class that has it as a class skill is the rogue class.
Disable Device is another skill that only the rogue has as a class skill.
I personally think that Open Lock should not be included in theft. It should instead be included in disable device.
Many traps have a locking mechanism to allow bypass or activation. A rogue disabling the device may frequently be using 'open lock' anyway. A lock is a mechanical device not entirely unlike a trap (though usually smaller).
Someone who is adept at disabling a clock (a device) would probably do well disassembling a lock (another device - the major difference is this one doesn't move on it's own).
Since Disable Device is also the only skill that is a class skill for the rogue, this changes very little. Simply put, a rogue can choose to be good at opening locks and disabling traps or stealing from people in the market. For back story, one can certainly be more appropriate than another. For example, the dwarven locksmith will likely have a high disable device (open lock + disable device), but a low Theft. The street urchin might be the opposite.
And, petty thieves that try their hand at everything might be reasonably good at both.
I agree with this or similar change.
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I'm going to have to disagree with the Theft skill being a rogue exlusive class ability, simply because its a skill that measures ones ability to perform a certain task. Sure, I can see how Trapfinding could be considered in the same light, but it makes sense for the rogue (and scout if you are using them in your games) as they are taught what to look for and how to deal with them as part of their background. Anyone can learn how to pick a lock or even disable a watch (my example for a device), but not everyone is going to know exactly what to look for when it comes to triggers and mechanisms designed to take you out by surprise.
While talking about the Theft skill, I don't agree with it either. My solution, and this is how I am running it for my group, is combining Open Lock and Disable Device into one skill as the basic function for them makes sense and keeping Sleight of Hand as a separate skill. After all, it does cover more than just picking pockets and can be useful for any character to have.
My solution:
Mechanics? = Disable Device + Open Lock
"Theft" (Legerdemain?) = Escape Artist + Sleight of Hand
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Very rarely have I played a rogue and used sleight-of-hand for stealing stuff. Most often, I've used it to conceal things on my person (but I think you're technically supposed to use hide for that in 3.5). One time I was being held hostage and successfully got a dagger without my captor noticing. Boy was he surprised by my sneak attack..
Anyway, it doesn't make much sense to rename it theft and put it with open lock, because there's things you can do with sleight of hand besides steal things. I prefer the Open Lock + Disable Device & the Escape Artist & Sleight of Hand combinations, if combinations must be made.. =)
You could also combine sleight of hand with bluff, because when you don't have access to psychic paper sometimes you have to distract the guards by shuffling alot of papers and assuring them you belong.
/ali
By "only way to maintain rogue as a viable class", I take it you mean that no one would want to play a character with evasion, improved uncanny dodge, 10d6 of sneak attack damage that now works on more opponent types...
A fine line maybe, but to my mind the class you're describing isn't so much a rogue as a variant fighter - his abilities are focused on killing opponents and avoiding damage in battle. That works quite well if you're into repeated hack-'em-up adventures, but kind of falls short when the campaign also has heavy involvement in things other than combat. The Alpha 1 system gives you the rogue's core archetypal ability - skills - as a 1 level dip. Thereafter, you can be a fighter and get better at combat, or be a "rogue" and get better at combat. The stealth, trapfinding, etc. are a "freebie," not a focus.
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A character with low dexterity and high ranks in sleight of hand could be a master pick pocket, even if his Dex score would indicate he's a klutz. And anyway, being a master pickpocket really comes from confusing the people you're pickpocketing which means it should be Charisma-based to me.
Its not a bad point but being able to pick pocket does involve mostly dexterity. A good example of this is a friend of mine recently was in Panama and passed through a crowd. Even though he had his hand covering his wallet and passport, he still had both lifted and his cigarette case out of his cargo pocket.
Now, its not to say that you couldn't utilize a Deception check with Sleight of Hand in order to distract a target, frankly it would make sense for it to work. Just set a DC and if they hit it give them a synergy bonus or the such.
My solution:
Mechanics? = Disable Device + Open Lock
"Theft" (Legerdemain?) = Escape Artist + Sleight of Hand
Bingo, on the money. Just what I was thinking. General consensus puts DD and OL together, but SoH and EA are naturals together. Especially since both involve deftness of the hands and quick movements.
As to prior posts, I think "Deception" works great but only when you drop the "feint" option from it (at least mostly). The ability to lie convincingly is very limited in melee, if you have your mouth open to talk odds are someone is shoving a boot in it.Admittedly the "is that Jesus walking down the street?" gag will work to get you surprise but it doesn't work so well when you are locked in combat. Maybe making a feint option with the EA and SoH skill when already in combat. Feinting with deception is for the purpose of gaining surprise initially.
As to knowledge, I asked two non gamers who do wrestling and martial arts. They rely on body language to mislead someone while fighting. I'm better at lying though (maybe not a good trait) so I can probably sucker punch them before they tear me apart..."is that a pink mu mu that guy is wearing?"
It seems like you're still lost in the skill ranks systems, with no real awareness of the rest of the picture.
I kind of saw it that I was lost in the idea that classes have their own niches, and that every class need not be defined by its combat abilities.
Tell you what. Let's change the multiclass rules so that by taking 1 level of fighter, you get BAB = HD for the rest of your career. No bonus feats, though, just the BAB. Is that "fair" to the fighter? Or 1 level of wizard gets you caster level and spell progression = HD, but no specialist or item bonding or bonus feats. Reasonable and fair? Now how about giving the rogue's skills away?
The argument about armor penalties seems fairly weak; one mithral shirt takes care of that problem, or the fighter's reduced check penalties from armor training; either way, the armor bonus is quickly overshadowed by better class level bonuses.
Try this example: If you assign Dex and Int as high stats, you're vastly better off as a rogue 1/wizard 19 than as a rogue 19/wizard 1. The sneak attack won't be missed, and the little rogue tricks are worth nowhere near as much as 18 levels of spellcasting. The huge number of skill points were what made the rogue the rogue. In a campaign where skills actually get used, giving 19 levels' worth of them away for free in a 1st level grab bag is no more reasonable than giving away 19 levels of spellcasting ability. (Also, I should point out that the 1-level dip into rogue gives you trapfinding, as well as all the skills).
Bingo, on the money. Just what I was thinking. General consensus puts DD and OL together, but SoH and EA are naturals together. Especially since both involve deftness of the hands and quick movements.My solution:
Mechanics? = Disable Device + Open Lock
"Theft" (Legerdemain?) = Escape Artist + Sleight of Hand
Those combinations just make sense, like the Survival = Intuit Direction + Wilderness Lore combination of 3.0 skills in 3.5.
As to prior posts, I think "Deception" works great but only when you drop the "feint" option from it (at least mostly). The ability to lie convincingly is very limited in melee, if you have your mouth open to talk odds are someone is shoving a boot in it.
As I stated in the [Design Focus] Skills thread, my opinion is that Deception = Bluff + Disguise with Sense Motive staying separate. Lying effectively (or, as a more general application, feigning disability, distracting your opponent, etc.) is not the same as being able to see through lies (etc.). Using Sleight of Hand could be used to "feint" in certain circumstances (suddenly producing a weapon "from nowhere"), but is more limited in general practice.
My quick Post:
- Roll Open Lock into Disable Device; both INT based
- Roll Escape Artist into Sleight of Hand; Both DEX based
As far as the perception thing goes (I use the folowing):
Spot/Search become: Observation (INT) and Listen (WIS). Listen could abosorb Sense Motive....
I remember that Mutants & Masterminds had Listen and Notice as skills..
I don't like theft as a skill. I'd go for Sleight of Hands (plus Use Rope) and Disable Device (plus Open Lock) myself. They seem to fit thematically (one deals with deft hands in general, the other with mechanisms), plus I really don't like the name theft. That's so Even-Edition (2e pigeon-holed thieves, and 4e does as well).
And if theft becomes a class ability, so should be fighting. Everyone encroaches on the fighter's stick. :P
The rogue has enough stuff going for him that he doesn't need those skills all for himself.
Plus, I think they should keep 3e's course, which was to get rid of arbitrary restrictions. They didn't go all the way (for example, rogues are still the only ones who can detect traps), but it as a step in the right direction.
And especially skills should remain completely separate from class abilities. The only thing that should tie classes to skills should be the class skill list (and the number of skills you get).
My quick Post:
- Roll Open Lock into Disable Device; both INT based
- Roll Escape Artist into Sleight of Hand; Both DEX based
Agreed on the points above. I'm fine with perception as it is though.
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Agreed on the points above. I'm fine with perception as it is though.My quick Post:
- Roll Open Lock into Disable Device; both INT based
- Roll Escape Artist into Sleight of Hand; Both DEX based
I'm fine with Perception as well (I like that all the senses are listed separately) -- I just wish that Insight would be added to the list.
Escape Artist would probably fit into Acrobatics, too (although it's not a big thing for me if it is rolled into Sleight of Hand -- actually, you *need* "deft" and nimble hands to function as an escape artist).
There's just something that I've pondered -- should Craft (locksmithing) be eliminated from the game altogether? Or should Disable Device be rolled into it? (NOTE: it is an INT-based skill, too, and related to locks).
Theft should either remain as part of Sleight of Hand *or*, preferably, become a class feature for Rogue.
Theft should be a rogue class ability only. Not a skill choice. Their is no spellcasting skill or weapon wielding skill. End of story. No other class should have access to a specially trained subset of theiving abilities.Excellent point. So a cleric can take Theft as a skill? Even cross-classed, that's pretty absurd.
So a cleric of a deity of rogues (Olidammara for instance) having Theft as a skill is absurd?
To summarize this thread, if I may.
Most people want to combine Disable Device and Open Locks.
A few don't.
I am included in the smaller group. I feel Disable Device and Open Lock suffer from titles that don't accurately descripe their intentions. Would you still want to combine the two skills if they were called Solving Traps and Using Tools? Maybe. I can see people coming up with arguments for it.
Basically, the community seems to have come up with 3 options. All of which, have their merits. Any of which, I would play.
1) Combine the two skills, decide which ability score to assign to it. I guess I have an easier time convincing myself that picking a lock is Intelligence based than convincing myself that figuring out how to bypass, sabotage, and disable devices should be Dexterity based.
2) Combine the two skills, no longer assign only one ability to a skill. Disable Device (int/dex) +5/+8. I am ready to see the "beta" version of this option. I think it could work, I would like to see it written up to see how all the details play out to make sure some big problem doesn't arise.
3) Keep them separate. Find different skills that do use the same ability score to perform and combine them instead.
Sleight of Hand (DEX) You are skilled at feats of manual dexterity. Using your sense of touch you can use tools to manipulate the inner workings of hidden mechanisms. You can also use this skill to lift a purse and hide it on your person, palm an unattended object, hide a light weapon in your clothing, or perform some feat of legerdemain with an object no larger than a hat or a loaf of bread.
Open Lock + Sleight of Hand + Use Rope
Decipher Devices (Deduction) (INT) You are good at figuring out how things work. With access to the mechanisms of a device, you can figure out how to disable, bypass or sabotage the item. Most of the time, disabling the device can be done with whatever tools are on hand with minimum physical effort, although some extremely complicated devices may require a Sleight of Hand check and a set of thieves' tools to disable. This knowledge of how things work also lets you discern any small irregularities in the area examined which could signal a trap, a hidden compartment, or a secret door.
Disable Device + Search
Read the Search description in the rulebook. Doesn't it sound like it could be part of Trap Solving/Deciphering Devices? Plus pulling Search back out of Perception has the added bonus of not making us go back and jack up older editon Rogue's Wisdom scores so they can actually find traps and secret doors.
So, that's it. One thing about skill-folding is it's like solving a Rubik's cube. You get one part done, but you end up having to mess it up again to get the whole thing solved. You have to see the whole list, plus the class-skills list to see if your skill combinations will work in gameplay. Otherwise you may get done and find the Fighter has 6 class skills and the Rogue has 5!
In under two weeks, we will hopefully have Alpha 1.2 and the playtesting can really start taking off.
My outline above should also include the following subsets under the first two choices.
1 & 2 a) Keep Sleight of Hand by itself.
1 & 2 b) Combine Sleight of Hand with another skill.
i) SoH + Escape Artist
ii) SoH + Use Rope
iii) SoH + Bluff
iv) SoH + Stealth
I think we can keep discussing which of the above system is better, but I think a better use of our time would be to design the rest of the system and see how the whole skill system fits together. When you are all done you can look at your system and see what skills seem too weak or too strong and what classes need more or less class-skills.
I would like to say everyone’s system is well thought out. I am always amazed at the level of intelligence and creativity these boards are capable of achieving. I have had a blast considering everyone’s suggestions and I apologize to anyone who doesn’t like this part of gameplay and has been overwhelmed by our enthusiasm.
I can't really argue with either of these assertions: The problem is that there's little reason to progress as a Rogue. The sneak attack won't be missed (in a rogue 1/wizard 19 build).
Mostly because they're silly. I also can't possibly agree with them. You've moved from arguing that the class should receive theft as exclusive to arguing that the class just isn't any good. You wouldn't miss 10d6 Sneak attack damage. Usable long after the Wizard is out of spells, and probably hit points. Right. Pull the other one.
If you truly would rather have 10d6 in sneak attack damage than 19 levels of spellcasting ability, and believe that they can be traded one for the other on an equal basis, then there's really nothing else to be said here. The argument, which you grasped perfectly well a few posts ago, was that (a) the 3.5 rogue's large number of skills was a large part of the class' appeal and game balance; (b) that appeal has been stripped and the balance upset by the Alpha skill system setup; and (c) one possible fix, if the skill system is not changed, would be to reserve the trapfinding and disarming abilities as rogue class features. To which your reply seems to be that sneak attack and current class features completely eclipse the rogue skills in usefulness and in terms of the class' focus. Pneumonica and I failed to agree with your valuation, at which point you declared that our points were "silly."
Obviously there is no point in further discussion; you're happy with the Alpha class balance, whereas I was with the 3.5e balance. I feel like I can disagree with you on the class focus and balance issue and still be perfectly happy, and if you just feel the need to randomly hurl insults, I'm also happy to ignore any further posts from you. Thanks.
Exclusive skills, in my opinion, should be avoided like the plague. If it is of paramount importance that an ability be locked into a single class, it should be a class feature, not a skill. The rogue already gains an example of this: Trapfinding.
That said, I do think that Disable Device and Open Locks should be a single intelligence based skill. I also think that Sleight of Hand should be its own skill, or bound together with Use Rope (pun intended.)
Then again, I'm also of the opinion that SoH should be a class skill of the rogue, bard and wizard.
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The proposed Alpha Rogue has a lot more than sneak attack going for it.
The Alpha system that allows a character to take 1 level of rogue and then 19 levels of something else and continue gaining skills as a rogue is *not happening*. It was a suggestion, and Jason has said on these boards that he intends to move it to something more similar to 3.5. The final form (or not quite final form, but new form for our consideration anyway) has not been announced yet.
The rogue should have more skill points than the other class. The rogue won't need 'exclusive skills' to remain a viable choice. In fact, even with other classes having 'full access' to skills that the rogue has traditionally had exclusive claim to, I don't forsee the rogue becoming any less popular.
The fact is that the rogue is a compelling archetype for a lot of people. There are going to be people playing rogues and ALWAYS playing rogues, just as their will be people always willing to be a fighter, or even ALWAYS play a fighter. Some people just grock that class.
Now, the rogue should be designed as a compelling and versatile class. Skills should be a big part of that. But we're not in the final stage of anything yet. So it isn't 'fair' to say 'don't give these to other classes, that takes too much from the rogue and now they suck'. We still have a chance to do just that and then find a new way not to make the rogues suck.
I'd argue that rather than keeping the rogue's stock artificially high by giving them the only access to some skills is unnecessary - in fact, if that is the only reason to be a rogue (so you can find and disarm traps) the class needs something else.
Now, I personally think that the class has it. I would be quite happy to play a rogue in a party that has a monk that disarms traps (or a cleric, whatever, I don't care). I would be really surprised to see it happen that often since all classes are going to want to spend their skills on their 'pet skills', and any left over they're going to want to spend on the skills that are likely to save their own life. I think if all the skills were available to everyone equally (no class and cross-class skills) you'd probably see a lot more people taking tumble, but that's about the only one that would suddenly become popular among classes that didn't normally have access. Seriously. Maybe more characters would take a knowledge skill, so that the party has a wide variety, but that doesn't strike me as a bad thing.
The 'doom and gloom' over giving other classes any type of rogue skills doesn't seem to be based on more than unfounded worry. Now, if that is the case, don't worry. If the change is made it will be playtested. If it doesn't work, that will be revealed.
So, for that reason, I hope the next playtest gets rid of cross-class skills completely. I think a lot of people who think they're important will change their mind when they try a skill system that doesn't include them. Of course, that has little foundation other than the experience I've had with my players - but I'm willing to see it playtested to test the validity.
As for Theft - the name is silly. Sleight of Hand can stand on it's own. Open Lock should be rolled into Disable Device. Intelligence should be the primary attribute. Trapfinding should be a feat, given to rogue's as a bonus feat at 1st level just like Ranger's get track. Few characters are going to take Disable Device if they don't take Trapfinding, and since the feat sets a high 'entrace fee', few other than the rogue (who gets it for free) would bother. The flavor of the rogue is safe, but the ability of other classes to build a 'variant rogue' is enhanced. Wins for everyone. Yippee.
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Theft should be a rogue class ability only. Not a skill choice. Their is no spellcasting skill or weapon wielding skill. End of story. No other class should have access to a specially trained subset of theiving abilities.Excellent point. So a cleric can take Theft as a skill? Even cross-classed, that's pretty absurd.
But rogues do get spellcasting abilities through their talents, minor magic, major magic and dispelling attack.
I am surprised this is an opinion at all given all the skill rank proponents. What happens if I wanted to make another class character that likes to steal things. Why have skills at all then? If you say that rogues should alone get theft as an ability then maybe skills should be removed completely from the game and just integrated into specific class abilities. Rogues are not the only classes that might want to steal. It is no longer called the Thief class for a reason.
There are spellcasting skills which include Knowledge arcana, use magic device, spellcraft, and appraise.
All classes can wield weapons of some kind.
Going a little too far with this I think.
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Both Open Locks and Sleight of Hand were both dexterity based skills in 3.5. The description of open lock was picking padlocks, finesse comibination locks, and solve puzzle locks. To me this description describes a dexterity based skill.
Disable Device states you can examine a fairly simple or fairly small mechancial device and disable it. This reads to me as intelligence based and figuring things out.
Also, I think you have to take into serious consideration that this is a game and when it really comes down to it almost none of these skills are realistic. Most of these skills require various ablities not just one. Also the skills are not very accurate to how they work in the real world. I think you would have to look at this from a game balance perspective mainly and then also make sure it is somewhat reasonably believable when all is said and done.
If none of those opinions makes you feel better in one of the numerous skill ranks threads Jason did mention that he was going to probably change theft and disable device, so the ones that want it changed will probably get that. I can not find the thread where he said it now though. So we all wait for the Pathfinder Skill revamp. Hope it comes out soon.
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Why aren't Disable Device + Open Lock together, and then "Theft" would be Search + Sleight of Hand? That seems a bit more logical to me. Granted, the mechanical aspects of searching and legerdemain are dissimilar, but since we're shooting for neat "packages" of skills, those seem to fit better than, I don't know, say, Open Lock and Sleight of Hand.
The way we've broken it down in my campaign:
Disable Device = Disable Device + Open Lock
Investigate = Investigate, Research, and Search
Stealth = Hide, Move Silently, Sleight of Hand
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Don't like either the name or the grouping.
Theft is taking things that belong to other people. This activity may involve no skill check at all or a variety of different unrelated actions (climbing, squeezing, opening locks, picking pockets, combat, sneaking about, trickery). It's not an appropriate name for a single skill.
If opening locks falls under Disable Device, then picking pockets can remain as Sleight of Hand, which is a useful skill description as is that doesn't presume the character's motive for taking the action.
The new ability to identify thieves' marks is interesting and could take in the 3.0 idea of Innuendo as well. This should go to a Knowledge (streetwise) sort of skill. I can definitely see thief-taker rangers and fighters learning that.
Saurstalk, Stargrim,
In a total break with Pathfinder, I've proposed the following to my group (we love combined skills):
Disable Device = Disable Device + Open Locks + Use Magic Device
Sleight of Hand = Sleight of Hand + the Quick Draw feat given DCs
Streetwise = Gather Information + Knowledge (local) + identify marks, people, etc.
Stealth = Hide + Move Silently + Surveillance
I've left Search in with Perception for now just to avoid the old issue of "is it a Spot check or a Search check?"
Exclusive skills, in my opinion, should be avoided like the plague. If it is of paramount importance that an ability be locked into a single class, it should be a class feature, not a skill.
That's what I keep saying. If it's a Skill, it should be a Skill. Not a Skill/Class Feature Hybrid.
The rogue already gains an example of this: Trapfinding.
Something I don't like at all, since you basically gain a norma/exclusive hybrid-skill (some features of search are now an exclusive use of the skill.). Add to that the part where some traps can be found (and limit is a DC, which in my opinion is an unnecessarily arbitrary ruling).
Instead, I put all uses of search into search (well, perception), and made trapfinding work like the dwarven ability to notice unusual stonework (or the elven ability to spot secret doors).
That said, I do think that Disable Device and Open Locks should be a single intelligence based skill. I also think that Sleight of Hand should be its own skill, or bound together with Use Rope (pun intended.)
That's exactly the way I'm handling things, too. In my houserules, those consolidations have been in for some time. The use rope part was in part because I seldomly saw anyone taking use rope.
I know I'm going against the grain here, but I'm not sold. I think the three skills in question remaining separate is fine and in and of themselves, are not a flaw in the game and in need of attention.
Sleight of Hand should remain on its own for reasons which have already been said here. But I do not feel Disable Device and Open Lock should neccessarily be put into one skill. I will say this: I can see someone who is good at disabling devices (traps in most cases) being good at opening locks, but I cannot see someone who is good at opening locks also being good at disabling devices... the reason being, there are no consequences upon failure to open a lock, but there certainly may be consequences in failure to disable a device. Hence in the PHB, you can take 20 on open lock checks, but not so on disable device checks.
However, if they were combined into one skill, I would not mind so long as there remains a distinction between the consequences of opening a lock vs. disabling a trap in the description of this new combined skill. This solution, I would be happy with. But honestly, it doesn't simplify the game, or make it easier to run, it just reorganizes a couple rules. By combining them, all that would really be accomplished would be that it saves you 1 skill point per level. Is it worth it then? Perhaps. Perhaps it is one little tweak that keeps the skill system as simple as possible, without losing anything. That is where playtesting can come in.
Sleight of Hand = Sleight of Hand + the Quick Draw feat given DCs
That's interesting, though a dice roll or chance of failure for Quick Draw might be fiddly. Maybe you get to Quick Draw if you have 4 ranks / full training in Sleight of Hand.
Or buy it like a skill trick.
Those are both good options. I'm glad I posted it now!