Dear all,
I am of the opinion that some spells in 3.5 detract from good story telling. I suggest listing traditional spells from 3.5 that you wished were taken out of Pathfinder RPG or seriously gimped/amended. Please, name them and explain why those spells should go
I dont want any spells gone from core if you dont want to use them then as DM say there off limits.
Kill/Gimp all the Detect spells
Rationale: Because it's sad when players rely on spells rather than using their own powers of deduction. Also, it is becoming ridiculous to have all those high powered villains carrying around amulets that hide their alignment.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I don't want any spells removed either. Sure, some can be tweaked or even re-written entirely, and others might be shifted a spell level up or down, but I don't see any need to remove any.
Some that should be changed (I haven't read the spells chapter yet, so I'm sorry if some of these are addressed already):
Polymorph self (I know, a bit obvious)
Alter Self (for similar reasons as above - I think it should allow all sorts of minor features and visible appearance, but have a set limit on mechanic changes it allows - i.e. it can give +2 to natural armor, claw attacks that do 1d4 damage for medium casts, bite that does 1d6, and one of a list of extroninary abilities, like swim speed, climb speed, etc. These changes would remove the need to find the 'best' humanoid that can be changed into)
charm person/monster
dominate person/monster
daze/daze monster
enlarge person
reduce person (all of these spells have the strange limit on creature type. I'd prefer them to be split by the lower level version only affecting your creature type, and the higher level version affecting any creature type. In regards to enlarge/reduce, I think these should simply affect any creature type...otherwise you're left asking why can a human get larger through magic, but a dragon, demon, etc. cannot?)
sleep/deep slumber - I think the HD cap on these spells kills them within a few levels of being able to cast them. Remove the cap, the saving throw is enough to reduce their effectiveness on bigger creatures.
Summon monster/nature's ally - change the duration to 5 rounds + 1/level so they're a bit more useful at low levels.
Obviously, Jason has already said he plans on taking a run at the whole Polymorph subsystem, but I wanted to toss a couple of ideas in this bucket:
I think a general end to save or die effects is worth considering and probably will be.
As for some common spells, while they have good utility, Fly and Teleport as written, as common as they are expected to be, are two spells that have wide ranging implications on a campaign world. If it's at all common to fly or teleport, especially great distances, it becomes very hard to believe in a world that is stuck in some sort of feudal Europe mode. Those two abilities alone radically change the nature of warfare and politics, which are two of the bigger things that shape a campaign world.
See also: Raise Dead, Resurrection, etc...
Agreed.
Kill/Gimp: Teleport
Rationale: because getting from A to B can also make for a good adventure
Suggestion: You have to spend some time performing a ritual to bind yourself to a specific location. You can only teleport back to this location (or alternatively: teleporting somewhere else is hugely dangerous/unprecise)
Kill/Gimp: Raise dead
Rationale: because if it was not the case why wouldn't the rich noble/priest/merchant keep living forever
Suggestion: The component for a Raise dead spell....is another willing soul.
Kill/Gimp: Circle of Truth
Rationale: because it is nearly useless when employed by the PCs. If the DM does not want the player to know the truth I am pretty sure that the npc inside the circle of truth will magically succeed his/her saving throw.
In my games raise dead only works if they are the same faith as the cleric and the god allows it normally there has the be a reason to allow someone back after they have passed...I give them a quest from the gods
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Agreed.
Kill/Gimp: Raise dead
Rationale: because if it was not the case why wouldn't the rich noble/priest/merchant keep living forever
Suggestion: The component for a Raise dead spell....is another willing soul.
The reason is written into the spell description. "Only a willing soul can be brought back to life." Most souls go to their appropriate afterlife, and their concerns in the mortal world simply don't seem important most of the time. Adventurers are a special case, and they often want to come back, to finsih their goals, help their friends in mortal danger, etc.
Why do so many people dislike Save of Dies I love having the risk of being able to kill some one out right or be killed outright
I dont think this will go because the 20th level rogue got a death attack
I don't want to see any spells go either, though some clarifications in certain spells wouldn't hurt, and a couple spells could use a slight tweak up or down (keep them the same level, but maybe tweak the effects slightly).
Overall things I would like to see changed
- No HD/hp effect caps. i.e., spells that if you have X HD or over X hit points, this spell has no effect on you (Sleep, Cause Fear, Power Words, etc.). I'd rather see that if the opponent has more HD than the caster, it has minimal effect and/or a bonus to save. For example, Holy Word (Cleric 7) is close - if you could affect creatures higher than your level (deafening the target for 1d4 rounds) but they get a Will save to negate, it'd be perfect. Note that Color Spray already works this way, and it's 1st level!
- Fly-based spells manueverability class lowered. Adding the Fly skill will not reduce the abuses of run-n-gun flying if the manueverability classes of the spells are left at average or higher.
- No spell should end up with a duration longer than 24 hours. Give some bite to the Extend metamagic spell for things like Charm, Mind Blank, Dimensional Lock and the like. (I'd also like to see Clerics and Druids get Permanency and spells like Forbiddance to have a temporary effect, but be able to be made permanent.)
- An alternative to spending XP to cast spells (and make magic items)
Specific Spells that could use a tweak
Flaming Sphere: As a 2nd level spell, this thing is so inferior to Scorching ray, its the only spell I've ever advised PCs not to take. This is how I changed it in my games, for reference:
Flaming Sphere
Evocation [Fire]
Level: Drd 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect: 5-ft.-diameter sphere
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: See below
Spell Resistance: Yes
A burning globe of fire rolls in whichever direction you point and burns those it strikes. It moves 30 feet per round. As part of this movement, it can ascend or jump up to 30 feet to strike a target. If it enters a space with a creature, you make a ranged touch attack roll to hit the target, and success deals 2d6 points of fire damage to that creature, though a successful Reflex save halves the damage. A flaming sphere rolls over barriers less than 4 feet tall. It ignites flammable substances it touches and illuminates the same area as a torch would.
The sphere moves as long as you actively direct it (a move action for you); otherwise, it merely stays at rest and burns. It can be extinguished by any means that would put out a normal fire of its size. The surface of the sphere has a spongy, yielding consistency and so does not cause damage except by its flame. It cannot push aside unwilling creatures or batter down large obstacles. A flaming sphere winks out if it exceeds the spell’s range.
Arcane Material Component: A bit of tallow, a pinch of brimstone, and a dusting of powdered iron.
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Naw...Just go Variant.
Enchant Missile (Variant Magic Missile)
Caster directs energy into a small missile causing it to fly from the hand for an Autohit (no save) inflicting 2-5hp.
That way the street urchin can throw a rock that burns through your plate armour for 2-5 hp damage.
The Ninja can unleash an obviously magical throwingstar that burns through your armour for 2-5hp.
Villiam the Bloody can hurl an Iron Spike over great distance and penetrate your armour for 2-5 hp.
Solar Flare (Variant Light)
A flash of light that blinds people in the radius who fail a save.
Why do so many people dislike Save of Dies I love having the risk of being able to kill some one out right or be killed outright
I dont think this will go because the 20th level rogue got a death attack
Isn't that something that takes three rounds to get off, though? I think it's worth considering getting rid of those Power Word Roll-a-New-Character spells that all the higher level demons seem to have. There's enough randomness and deadliness involved in a fight. Hold Person and a coup de grace accomplish the same risk to the player without taking away a player's chance to avoid death through his companions' heroics.
The risk of being killed outright is already built into the game. There doesn't need to be a whole collection of spells and abilities that speed the process up to one-round fatalities if you didn't powergame all three of your saves, IMO. And I say this as much as a DM as a player. It is never fun to watch a character who's lived through ten or more levels of gameplay die because he has a lousy will or fort save.
I never really found a good use for the mnemonic enhancer spell. Could someone give me a good use of both the retain and prepare versions?
Mooooooooo.
...
Moooooooooo.
lol... cute lil cow.
Why do so many people dislike Save of Dies I love having the risk of being able to kill some one out right or be killed outright
Because I don't believe that a character who is at his full strength and who is facing a challenge appropriate to his level should ever be removed from the game as the result of a single die roll.
Because I think it trivializes character development by creating a single, abrupt and arbitrary terminating event for the character.
Because I think it saps adventures of rising action by permitting a single moment of tension for a character (and its player) in an encounter. I would rather have an ongoing narrative, created through a series of connected moments, that builds tension to a satisfying climax.
The game has plenty of risks for PCs and their enemies. To me, the most exciting risks are the ones that come from the give and take of an ongoing conflict; not from a single effect.
The reason is written into the spell description. "Only a willing soul can be brought back to life." Most souls go to their appropriate afterlife, and their concerns in the mortal world simply don't seem important most of the time. Adventurers are a special case, and they often want to come back, to finsih their goals, help their friends in mortal danger, etc.Agreed.
Kill/Gimp: Raise dead
Rationale: because if it was not the case why wouldn't the rich noble/priest/merchant keep living forever
Suggestion: The component for a Raise dead spell....is another willing soul.
And another reason: The rich noble/priest/merchant can't keep living forever. Neither raise dead, nor resurrection will bring back someone who died of old age.
Kill/Gimp: Teleport
Rationale: because getting from A to B can also make for a good adventure
Suggestion: You have to spend some time performing a ritual to bind yourself to a specific location. You can only teleport back to this location (or alternatively: teleporting somewhere else is hugely dangerous/unprecise)
It's your opinion, and I am not trying to say it is wrong.
But altering Teleport in such a fashion hurts timeline based adventures. Sometimes characters need to "pop" someplace they have never been.
You realize that also means doing away with medusae, basilisks, and other petrifying creatures, right? I like save-or-die powers, provided the DM isn't heavy-handed with them.Why do so many people dislike Save of Dies I love having the risk of being able to kill some one out right or be killed outrightBecause I don't believe that a character who is at his full strength and who is facing a challenge appropriate to his level should ever be removed from the game as the result of a single die roll.
Because I think it trivializes character development by creating a single, abrupt and arbitrary terminating event for the character.
Nope. It just means changing how those powers work. I never said people shouldn't be turned to stone.
Example of the top of my head: Medusa looks at you. Make Fort save. If you fail, your limbs harder and you lose have your Dexterity. On the next round make another save. If you fail that one, you are turned to stone. (Healing the damage either way still requires a Stone to Flesh spell.)
The detect spells...oh boy, where to start! :) I love the concept of them, but they do need some tweaking to avoid messing up adventures. Things like detect undead are fine. That is, to me, what detect spells should be good at! Detect Evil or Detect Good...another kettle of fish. Not sure how to really change them, but they are a bit too absolute. Perhaps they should only work on extremes of alignment, or perhaps they should be gutted and tossed out. Detect Lies is another one. Zone of Truth is fine, because of how it works, but detect lies can blow apart a mystery a bit too easily.
Perhaps the detect chaos/evil/good/law spells should be modified only to detect those with the appropriate aura (Clerics, Paladins and Blackguards) or with the appropriate subtypes (demons, devils and other aligned outsiders). Random evil wizard, assassin or even the homocidal serial killer whose been running around town offing the populace won't register on these spells even if he was Chaotic Evil because they neither have a special aura nor the evil or chaotic subtype...
Of course, if you did that, it would also probably require the same change to the protection from... and magic circle... spells. But that would honestly make them fit more what they were created for in the first place.
Perhaps discern lies should just grant a bonus to Deception (Sense Motive), somewhat like the Jump spell or Find Traps spell.
Save or Die effects really kinda need to go. In my games, almost all such spells were changed to doing a flat 20 points of damage per caster level, half on a save (making them nasty, but not always instantly fatal).
An interesting idea - though I don't think I'd do 20/level, say maybe 5/level or 10/level. If it drops you to 0 hp or lower, then you get any special effects of the spell (such as being turned to stone with Flesh to Stone). An idea to toy with, at least.
Perhaps also have "save or suck" spells, such as Sleep and the like, deal temporary hp damage, incurring their effects if they drop the opponent to 0 hp or less. They'd have to deal significant damage since they only do something if the victim fails the save (say 1d10 or flat up 5 or 10 points), but it would keep them from being instawin buttons is all cases.
Honestly, I'd be willing to entertain just about any idea that makes direct damage attacks more appealing to choose over "save or suck" spells that seem to dominate the 3.5 battlefield.
Teleport is one of those spells that is a very archetypal wizard spell, but can cause a ton of GM headaches. Certain spells, like this one, should be ones that are ritual spells. They take a while to cast, have ingredients, and other flaws. Perhaps for a teleport, you have to have visited your destination and arcanely "marked" it. So you can teleport to that location, but you have to get there the old fashioned way first.
For combat ports and short distance stuff you still have dimension door.
I'd like to see the ranges these spells will allow you to travel shortened. Also, for teleport, increase the chance of not arriving at the correct location if you're not intimately familiar with the target area.
Charms and the like, to me, are fine as is. Again, it is a pretty archetypal wizard/witch ability in fiction and something that casters in game should be able to do.
I just don't like how charms tend to last for days. The summoner wish he had it as good - and wishes he could scare up as good as what the enchanter is turning into help in the dungeon. I mean, the 11th level wizard could be charming CR 11-13 monsters to aid him for like a week, while the 11th level summoner is getting a CR 4-6 monster that stays around for 66 seconds?
Stat Adjustment spells: I always used the 3.0 versions of these. The time limits imposed on 3.5 were a pain to keep track of, it was just easier (and more effective) in play to simply let my casters have the old 1 hour/level duration.
I don't like Bull's Strength being a cheap replacement for a 16,000 gp Belt of Giant Strength +4. I'd like to see the durations go up to about 10 minutes/level, but not 1 hour/level.
Anything dealing with level loss. Not just a spell pet...
Agreed. I think that level loss should NEVER be permanent. A character should get a chance every day (with maybe a +1 bonus for each day past the first) to shake off the negative level. Or perhaps maybe have level loss last for a shorter amount of time - 1 hour/HD or level of the attacker or just like Vampiric touch and last 1 hour. (though I really am not fond of the last idea at all).
I'm all against having spells removed as well... that was one of the major factors that made me start to hate 4e.
In fact, I would like to see MORE spells... primarily because I agree somewhat with the original post. The spells that I want to see? Spells that screw up other spells more effectively. Anti-magic zone stuff, though perhaps adding specialized, limited versions of this in a scattering along the lower levels.
For example... a spell at 0 or 1st level that causes a 50% chance of failure for divination spells if cast in or upon a certain area. A spell at 1st or 2nd level that voids summonings in a certain radius... etc. etc.
I would think most of the usual suspects as far as problematic spells should at least be looked at for some way to cut down their ability to ruin the adventure or produce wonky 'this could only happen in D&D' results.
* Anything that vastly decreases your travel time, especially things that allow you to do it in perfect safety. Wind Walk, Teleport.
* Anything that creates something from nothing, and that something stays around. Create food, walls of iron and stone, Fabricate, etc.
* Anything that doesn't allow a saving throw and especially anything that ignores spell resistance.
Spells to kill :
* the Detect Spells + all spells linked to alignement
* Commune : no more find the BBEG in 5 questions
* Zone of Truth
Spells that need to be restrained / limited :
* Teleport : increase casting time, can only move you to a place you have already visited (PS : and don't forget to apply the same on Planshift)
* not a spell but there must be more limitation to the cumulation of buff spells. Change all the bonus types from spells to one type : Magic.
* Polymorph
Guys the problem with wholesale chopping and burning of spells out of the game is that we start to gimp backwards compatability. If the Pathfinder RPG assumes no teleport, detect*, etc etc...then DM's that still use those spells will find themselves running broken adventures because the AP designers will use the P3 system when balancing encounters/challenges.
I think revisions to loopholes/exploits are the only things that need to be considered. As has been mentioned extensively, Polymorph needs some new attention. Teleport may need some tightening of the screws. But I am wholeheartedly against nuking any spells that currently exist in the SRD.
Then let's cleverly gimp.
Let's put the casting time at 1 min for the detect spells.
Increase the component costs (1 willing soul for a Raise dead spell)
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Color Spray is really too complexe for a 1st level spell.
I am fed up to track who is blinded & dazzled & stuned at the same time. Why not drop the HD thing as well. It's artificial. Replace it by you are blinded until you succeed as save an you get one each round.
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Overall things I would like to see changed
- No HD/hp effect caps. i.e., spells that if you have X HD or over X hit points, this spell has no effect on you (Sleep, Cause Fear, Power Words, etc.). I'd rather see that if the opponent has more HD than the caster, it has minimal effect and/or a bonus to save. For example, Holy Word (Cleric 7) is close - if you could affect creatures higher than your level (deafening the target for 1d4 rounds) but they get a Will save to negate, it'd be perfect. Note that Color Spray already works this way, and it's 1st level!
Boy, do I ever disagree with this.
I'd like to see more HD based spells switch to work off hit points instead. The Power Word spells are a fantastic model for that type of work. There's a simple reason for this...
At the moment, for many spells, the wizard and the fighter have completely opposite goals. If the wizard has, for instance, Dominate Monster, then he wants that monster unharmed, so it will do the most good to the party if it fails its save. This is true of all save-or-die spells too - the wizard adds the most to the combat if the monster was undamaged before making its save. The fighter, I take for granted, has as his goal damaging all creatures he can...
Now, if spells were limited based on hit points, rather than hit dice, the two character types are suddenly working together. If those spells were limited by hit points, then the wizard might need the fighter to "whittle them down" until they're susceptible to his spells. Suddenly we have synergy.
Drew Garrett
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I'm all for correcting / improving 3.5 while making the athfinder rg happen - but I think eliminating spells to make the game fit into a certain setting or mood ist something best done by the DM. As long as the rulebook is not setting specific don't do it! Better make suggestions (in the actual settig book(s) or in the blog) of what sells you wouldn't use in the setting (2nd. edition dark sun and ravenloft took that course and thereby singled out moodbreaking spells for the setting while still keeping the core rules as "universal" as possible).
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One 4E-ism that sounds like it could be a great idea is turning some spells into rituals that function more like Scarred Lands Rituals or Unearthed Arcana Incantations.
Teleport is a number one choice for me for a spell that could be taken off the spell list and put on the Ritual list. Stuff like Dimension Door is fine for when the bad-guy needs to make a dramatic escape, while Teleport, Plane Shift, Raise Dead, Gate, etc. sound like the sorts of things that the casters should spend hours, or even days, casting, and turn them from potential game-wreckers to potential adventure-seeds.
"We have X days to try and restore the Prince to life, can you brave adventurers gather the materials we need and then guard us through the ritual, in case his evil step-brother attempts to disrupt it?"
"My god has granted me a vision. The Black Bishop of Ingerholl has aquired the bones of the Blood Knight, Scourge of the Second Imperium, and plans on trying to restore him to life! We must move quickly before he can gather what he needs for the ritual!"
Hey Set, you have some great ideas for the raise dead spells. I'd also like the raise dead spells to be done similar to Monte Cook's AU. Raise Dead should be 7th level and Resurrection should be a 9th level spell. True Resurrection needs to be an epic level spell.
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I think the "backwards compatibility" issue is a key point. I don't want PF to be another "hey, we're not D&D, we're better and smarter" as Arcana Evolved, Iron Heroes or True20. I want my D&D with its problems fixed.
So, kill or heavy modify spells? No way. Fix the ones that arise problems (as in Polymorph)? Yes, please.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Simple Suggestion for Polymorph
The way the Linguistics skill works, players spend a point and their charactrs learn a new language, full and complete. It's certainly reasonable for a DM to require PC's to spend two points for certain very difficult languages, or to rule other very obscure or secretive languages impossible to learn.
For transmuters, Pathfinder could introduce an analogous skill. Players spend a point and their characters learn a new polymorph form. Certain forms the DM is uncomfortable with, perhaps creatures the PC has never encountered, might require more than one skill point or be impossible to learn.
(I'm pretty conservative in my D&D 3.5 rules, with few house rules. This one has been one of my big winners.)
Detect Alignment Spells: Should remain in the game, but with a changed description. Ensure that everyone understands that the spell detects only a general outlook on ehtics and morals and nothing else. Being evil is not a crime. When the judge or captain of the guard is evil, it only says that he's a cold hearted bastard who would ignore the starving in the streets or doesn't see a need to not beat prisoners. Only when a pious monk of the deity of charity is detected as evil does it actually reveal something and under such circumstances, mind shielding magic would be appropiate.
But you could make it a targeted spells instead of a regular detection spell. Requiring concentration and 3 rounds to scan one individual with a maximum of 1 round/level. Would require you to allready have some founded suspicion.
Teleport: Is okay I guess, though the range is rather long. Greater Teleport is much to powerful, even for a 7th level spell and instantly arriving at any place desired shouldn't be possible at all.
Raise Dead: Required to keep PCs alive and many players need that to be possible to enjoy the game. Because of the price, most temples cannot aford to cast it for free at any accident that occurs near the temple and commoners would be unable to pay it off in their whole life. And as said, the soul has to be willing. Simply having liked to be alive might not be enough. There has to be a strong feeling of being terribly needed in the world of the living.
Everything save or die: Killing the BBEG in the second round of battle isn't fun. Being killed by one of his lieutenants the instant you come round a corner is also not.
Summons: Agree that these spells should be x+1 round/level. Summoning for 1 or 2 rounds isn't fun. I always houserule 3+n rounds.
Permanency: Really wouldn't miss this one. Works for wizards with their spellbooks, but not for sorcerers.