Frosty Chiseler

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Do the pdf come with layers? I would like to get rid of the grid in order to use the maps for online play under roll20.

This would save so much time.

If Pathfinder Online is very much about conquering and defending territories, how will you adress the fact that your player base might be spread across different time zones?

It would be sad if everytime Europe wakes up it discover that the land has been overtaken by North America overnight and vice-versa

Best regards and Merry X-mass

The number of skill point to reach the next skill rank in EVE scale with the skill level. Levelling from rank 4 to 5 can take months of real time to gain a few % more. Knowing you can only train one skill at a time, it gives you a pretty good incentive to specialise.

Furthermore, some skills require other skills before becoming accessible, hence a further incentive to specialise.

No one in EVE after 8 year is a master of all trades


Not necessarily. What happens if the game is balanced in such a way that strength comes from numbers. Maybe an old player can easily kill a younger one but what if two or three young players can take on an older one?

What matters then is making friends which is good for a game which is supposed to be driven by player generated politics

Moro wrote:
You still need to put in the time to level your skills to max in order to be on roughly equal footing in PvP, and while you are doing that the person that has been around longer than yourself, while not necessarily being a better player than you, has moved on and is gaining the upper hand in a different area.

Correct. That is the advantage the older player get. I think this is right that old player should have some advantage (other than their greater experience of the game) than complete beginner. Otherwise, players would loose all the motivation and satisfaction of levelling up their character

Moro wrote:
So no, until the two players in question have maxxed out all of their skills, they will not be on equal footing at all.

Not entirely true. For a given set of equipment (which has its advantages and disadvantages) a new player can rapidly (but not immediately) become as proficient as an experienced player. However, should the experienced player become in the meatime proficient with another set of equipment then that is another matter. The trick here is to make sure that some combination of equipment are better in some situation and much less so in other. Hence having access to the right tool becomes key and by right tool that does not necessarily mean an expensive one. For example, Chain mail was mightily useful until the invention of the crossbow which could puncture

Moro wrote:
I am very curious as to how PFO plans to eliminate the new player/established player gap.

me too. I do not think that there is an ideal system but what I've seen in EVE is to my mind one of the better (if not best) systems.

So what will be worth fighting for in Pathfinder Online?

Moro, this is offset by a limited number of skill rank within a skill. I would say only 5 ranks from novice to master. For example, once you reach the uppermost rank of "master" with a sword then this is it.

Contrary to what you say, a new player will ultimately be on equal footing. It is the whole point of the system. It will only take the said new player some time which he can choose to shorten by actively completing quests.

In my opinion, it beats having to level out to the max before you can even contemplate having a fighting chance in PVP. The alternative is to set a system under which you can only PVP with people roughly of your level. The drawback to this system is that it de facto limit the number of People you can PVP with.

That's why I am suggesting a hybrid system by which you gain skill points over time (a la EVE) plus additional skill points when you kill mobs/complete quests ( a la WOW)

I do not think such a system has been discussed before ( if not, my mistake)

EVE online is given as an inspiration for Pathfinder Online. One thing I think you should directly take from them is their skill system.

Eve skill is very broad (a gazillion different skills) but very shallow ( only five levels from novice to master). It also accrete with time IRL (x hours/days to wait until next level)

I think it goes very well with a PVP oriented game. An older player is not inherently better, he is more versatile. This tends to level the playing field though an older player will continue to have an edge over a younger player.

It is very different from other game where level differences are huge. There is now way a level 40 can take on a level 60, which in my opinion will deter many people from PVP if you have to grind until you are maxed level wise.

The earning of skill level is also very good for keeping semi-active players involved. One thing I would change though I that I would go for a middle-ground. Your character should gain a set number of baseline xp per hour but should you decide to "grind xp" you would win additional xp.

Hence a player who put in the time will level faster but a player who does not will still see his character improve which will open new content to him an thus keep him in the game.

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Congrats for the Dev blog. Your first posting was very informative.

You mention that developing theme park content is both time consuming and expensive, making it a poor return on investment. Your economic case was quite compelling.

However, I do not think you can skip on PVE content, especially when it comes to new players or older casual players.

Hence my suggestion: leverage your community by giving us the tool to do this for you.

Remember: Many of us are Dungeon Masters who would love to help you for the fun of it.

Developing good content with a limited set of artefacts (monsters/locations...) is challenging? Then challenge us. I think you could be surprised how creative your community could be.

Why not organise a contest a la RPGsuperstar? Give us a limited stock of NPCs, Monsters, Locations and other parameters you see fit and see what kind of interesting stories we can come up with.

It does not need to be complicated. Maybe the submission could take the form of a PDF with an outline of the plot, a limited number of cut scenes, a decision tree and a dungeon map? Nothing high-tech there.

... Not to mention that such a approach to content design would great a lot of goodwill and be quite out of the box and innovative.

Can you really say no to "free labour"?

EVE Online crops up in many descriptions of what Pathfinder Online could look like.

I am a player of EVE and one of the failing of this game (which I love by the way) is that PVE content is atrocious.

Yet most new players start with PVE. It is also a way to learn the game and "level" your character until you have the financial means to engage in PVP (losing ships costs). I wonder howbmany player CCP has lost to this and what does their new player attrition rate looks compared to other MMO. I would expect a much sharper drop owing to new player giving up on boring/repetitive content.

Vic Wertz wrote:

I can't speak definitively on behalf of the OP, but I see a difference between calling it a failure and saying that it has failings (which would be a more appropriate word in the subject). Even the CEO of CCP recognizes that EVE has failings.

Ryan and Mark are very familiar with EVE, and have their own opinions about what it does well, and where it can be improved, and you can be assured that they'll bring all of their education on that topic to make Pathfinder Online the best it can be. But speaking publicly about a lot of those lessons would be inappropriate at best.


You are correct. English is not my first language and failure is a poor choice of word. I am a player of EVE myself and love this game, yet it is far from perfect.

Hence, I would like to know what in the dev team's opinion are Eve weakest point and what would you do differently?

I have an opinion on this which I will give in another thread.


What would you do differently from the guys at CCP?

Ryan Dancey wrote:

Glory. Honor. Righteousness. Defense of the Weak. Protector of the Realm. Expansion of the Empire. Domination of the Weak. Maleficence. Renown. LoLs.

That is all good but will there be tangible benefit from the above built in the game? If not don't you risk losing player interest? Factional warfare in Eve is a good example of what can happen when game mechanics don't follow suit.

Pathfinder Online promises to be a sandbox type of game with an onus on PVP. Many parallels are made with EVE Online which is another example of sandbox type of game.

I happen to be a player of EVE and I do not understand exactly for what will we be fighting for.

In EVE, its pretty simple: Beyond the usual meta-game / big alliance politics (a.k.a. people with too much time and too much ego), people fight over resources or locations. I do not see how this can be easily applied to a medfan game.

Location: For those who do not know the game, you travel from solar system to solar system using jumpgates. Some solar systems have numerous routes flowing through them or are the only passage to access a valuable constellation. You fight to gain/retain control of those strategic points. You also develop technologies that allow you to immobilize your opponents so as to prevent him/her running away. How can you apply such a concept to a medfan game? I guess that in Pathfinder Online, you will be pretty much free to roam across the whole map. No strategic stranglehold you need to defend at all cost, except maybe a few bridges/ford/mountain passes.

Resources: EVE’s background is scifi. The universe is pretty high tech with mighty spaceshipd, long range weapons, sophisticated kit…etc. You need to gather lots of resources to build those ships, some of which can only be found in specific area (scarcity). Furthermore, building the said ships takes time and specialized manufacturing locations that you need to defend during the whole construction process. But in Pathfinder Online… how hard exactly will it be to craft my mark1 sword or my mark1 boiled leather armor? A lump of metal, a few hide… and there you go.

So, Dev, what exactly in your game will be worth me allying with other players and possibly dying for (or at the very least spending long hours in front of my computer)?

Best regards

Fair question

A Man In Black wrote:
the failure of other Medieval themed MMO?
It isn't even superficially similar to WAR, other than being a fantasy MMO that somehow involves PVP.

I do see some similarities between the two games:

- Both are medevial themed
- Both involve a PVP content
- Both enjoy a well developped background
- Both enjoy a strong PnP fan base

I would really like to know what the developper intend to do differently. What lesson have they drawn from Warhammer Online relatively disappointing performance? Actually, do they even consider it to be a disappointment?

I think this is a good question to ask. What lesson can you draw from the failure of other Medieval themed MMO?


I am a Game Master. By this I mean that I far prefer the role of GM than the one of player.

What will Pathfinder Online offer me?

Will there be a way for people like me to contribute content or adventures for the wider community to enjoy?


Still pending from Sep 11, 2008? All the items seem to be in stock though.

And the answer is???


When will the beautiful Rise of the Runelords Dice Set become available? I thought they were for sale at the GenCon but when I ordered on the website they showed as pending....Please do not tell me you have already run out and that it will take 2 months to re-stock....please

Not so much as an issue as you would think

  • Turrtleback Ferry is strategically important it is one of the two crossing points of the Skull river. Capturing it allows you to directly aim for Wartle and then Magnimar
  • Make it so that your PCs find Karzoug order to launch an attack on Sandpoint amongst the papers they can loot from Mormurkian (" Seize and hold the town of Turrtleback Ferry. Capture the Traitor whateverisitsname and obtain the information as to the location of the Runeforge by all means necessary")

Good ideas. Here is how I plan to modify Pathfinder #2 & Pathfinder #3:

  • Merge Xanesha & Lucretia because two Lamias in a row tend to dilute the value of the monster. Xanesha has plans for both Magnimar and Turtlleback Ferry.
  • Make it so that Ironbriar escapes. My PCs will have an inkling of who he is and what position he occupies but they cannot prove anything. Ironbriar will become a recuring vilain
  • After having stormed the mill of the 7 and witnessed a masked Ironbriar's narrow escape, they ransack his office and find a) A pile of reports from Fort Ranick mentioning the town of Turrtlback Ferry attempt at swindling taxes and unusual ogre activity. b) a letter from "ironbriar" to Xanesha reporting that he has indeed diverted all the reports from Turttleback Ferry as she requested and lamenting her sudden departure from Magnimar
  • By following the messenger raven in Ironbriar's office, the PC get to Xanesha's tower. She has left town but ransacking her place let the PC discover that a) She likes green. All her cloth are green. b) a huge stone tablet written in Thalissionian rune in which Barl Breakbone, Herald of the High-Lord Mormurkian summons her to Turttleback Ferry to accomplish the last stage of her plan (foreshadowing of the giants and Mormurkian here)
  • The PCs should logically then head to Turrtleback Ferry looking for a woman in green which fits the description of the owner of the paradise. She has actually left town recently for Fort Ranick. No one has seen any ranger since the head of the fort visited town a week ago. There is also a group of very suspicious dwarfs in town. They are obviously involved in some kind of deal with the town elders
  • What really happened is that the elders of Turttleback Ferry have found a gold mine in the vicinity of town. Barl Breakbone as a stone giant may have helped by providing the location of the mine to Xanesha who sold this to the elders and put her machination in place. The town elders want to keep this discovery secret to avoid paying taxes or having the town of Magnimar seize the mine. Hence the need to get rid of the ranger and the presence in town of dwarf miners from nearby Janderhoff. To get rid of the rangers, the elders invited the head of the order in town on a false pretext while Xanesha went to Fort Ranick to use her charm power on the second in command who was a good customer of the paradise. It is actually the town elders who sold the ranger delegation to the grauls who ambush them on their way back after a fruitless meeting. I wanted to up the greediness of the town of Turrtleback Ferry. Of course when the water will start rising, the town elders will refuse to evacuate the village for fear of losing the mine/one of them betraying the secret

What do you think and please help me spot any flaws in the above?

Lazaro wrote:
Does this help any

Thank you a million times

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How did you convey to your players the backstory behind Nualia's revenge. The secret diary is an obvious ploy but it has already been used for Tetsuo.

I do not want to give the impression to my players that my big vilains spend their time writing down their feelings on paper rather than try to raze Sandpoint

Dear all,

I've bought the second book of RotRL. I am very interested by the City of Magnimar. However, when I look at the map, the numbers in the legend seem all wrong. Has Paizo published a correct legend?

Best regards

I am preparing myself to run the RoTRL adventure path but one thing that struck me is what I believe to be a weak rationale from moving from the Skinsaw Murders (chapter 2) to the Hook Mountain Massacre (chapter 3).

Basically, the players are given a mission to go and investigate a remote outpost that has not given any sign of life for a while.

I do find the idea of a mission a bit weak and wish that there would be a better idea to get the player to explore Fort Ranick by themselves. A letter from one of the Lamias to the other would be an easy ploy but sadly this one has already been used to link Foxglove to Magimar, so I would like to avoid this stratagem altogether.

My question is therefore: Has anyone found a clever way to link the Skinsaw Murder to the Hook Mountain massacre?

I can only speak for myself and believe me I was a great supporter of 4th edition but what I've seen or read on numerous forum does not appeal to me. I will buy the books of course so as to add them to my collection and to scavange some of the good ideas that are bound to be included with 4th edition but personally I am thinking more and more about converting to RuneQuest.

I though about the Pathfinder RPG which I think will be a great product but which I fear will not go far enough in addressing some of the flaws of 3.5

Thank you very much for all the feedback. It is incredibly useful. I have another question:

How do you deal with Father Zanthus and the fact that he basically manages a multi-faith cathedral? My understanding is that he worships Desna but what authority does he have on the other cults present in the cathedral? Could he for instance perform some of those other cults' ceremonies?

Also, how do you get a shoanti character involved in defending Sandpoint? What's the motivation (beyond gold) for him to defend an outpost of the hated Chelaxians?

Saving Sandpoint is one one the major motivating factor behind the whole campaign but wouldn't a Shoanti actually be happy to seee it destroyed?

When will it be published and who will write it?.... oh come on, don't tell me you did not think about that one!

More questions:

  • How did you convey to your players the events of the late unpleasantness and more specifically that Lonjiku killed his wife, Nuala killed her father at the time the runewell did flare up? I have not read RotRL#2 yet
  • How did your players get to learn about the conflict between Wrath and Greed?
  • More specifically, how did your players get to learn who are Karzoug and Alanist?
  • Which NPCs can teach something to your players about the Runelords?
  • How did you foreshadow Mokmurian? When and how did your PCs learnt that he was the bad guy?

I completely agree with Mary here.

I think having two sins is too much of a distraction for my players as making the link between the flare up of the well of greed with the well of wrath is I think a little bit hard to do.

I also want to avoid my PCs wandering aimlessly from scenarios to scenarios. I want them to realise from the start that there is something evil going on there.

What do we know about the gods? Do we know who created the world? Did the gods create the races? How did the gods came into being? Where do they live? What significant actions did they take? What happens when you die?... In short, where can I find some handy information as to the gods of Varisa?

Mistwalker wrote:
Out of curiosity, any particular reason why you are doing your significant changes to the plot line?

To better suit what my players want. They love politics & intrigues so I will try to give them one.

Another question:

What do we know about the gods? Do we know who created the world? How did the gods came into being? Where do they live? What significant action did they do? Did they create the races?

Regarding your last point. I would argue that dying while pillaging a town is indeed an act of greed. So is there another reason I cannot convert the runewell to a runewell of greed?

Also, I am thinking about making the people from Turtleback ferry more greedy.

Could it be that they just happen to have found a gold mine in the vicinity of the hook mountain that they would rather keep for themselves? How unfortunate that the only people who would actually tell Magimar are those rangers from the Black Arrow Order who found the mine in the first place. How fortunate it is for the town elder that a bunch of mercenaries just happen to have the solution to the Black Arrow problem, especially if the town elders agree to distract the Black Arrow captain for a while.

That said, if only they knew that those mercenaries also happen to have spiked the gold deposit in the first place. Now, the people of Turttleback ferry do not know this which makes their decision not to evacuate the town despite the water rising all the more tragic if you ask me.


I am about to start Rise of the Runelords. I do plan to modify the adventure quite extensively and I have therefore a few questions to ask:

* Do we know what really happened to Cheliax?

If not I plan to use them as a looming threat. It's an extremely powerful kingdom (the new aristocracy killed a god!!!), they are probably evil and we haven't heard anything for the past 100 years (no one has ever returned). I plan some NPCs to be agent of Cheliax sent scouting the land because Cheliax has decided to take back its rightful colonies after a 100 year interlude...

Some powers in Varisia (Magimar?) are aware of the threat that Cheliax poses hence they have sponsored many expeditions in the Varisian ruins, looking for magical means strong enough to oppose the second Cheliaxian invasion. Such an adventurer was Mokmurian (which I intend to transform into a half giant), except that in his case he got more than he bargained for as he inadvertently awoke Karzoug. Now, the authority in Magimar who ordered Mokmurian's fateful mission also has a vested interest in the truth never getting out as it would be politically unhelpful if he or she were to be accused of having started what could be the apocalypse.

* Is there a reason why the runewell in sandpoint could not be a runewell of greed?

Why does it have to be a runewell of wrath. I do find it a bit confusing and would like my PCs to focus on only one runelord and sin magic

Can anyone tumble now?

I have always thought that tumble was too easy a way to avoid attacks of opportunity. Since you roll against a fixed DC under the current rule, I believe that after a while you can pretty much ignore attacks of opportunity if you have invested enough ranks in the skill. I think that a system where the DC scales up with your opponent would work better.

Agreed they are not worth taking. What if instead of a static +2 they offered the possibility of a re-roll 1/day?

Athletics = Climb, Jump, Run & Swim

Why not use the same technique than the Special Manoeuver to set the DC of a tumble check?

If you want to tumble then you have to beat a 15+CMB Difficulty check with your accrobatic check. The difficulty increases by +2 for each enemy threatening your starting space.

It has always struck me as weird that it was as easy to tumble away from a clumsy opponent as from one which is supoernaturally agile.

Why not opposed rolls instead of a fixed 15? With a fixed DC you can easily get into a situation whereby you cannot do a special attack no matter what the case. Opposed rolls do not add that much complexity and give you a chance to have a hail mary

Aidan wrote:
My suggestion to the PFRPG design team? Please go back to the old good infravision (much more simple to handle for a player and to judge for a GM) or simply remove the different visions altogether! they really don't add to the game.

....yes....bring back infravision instead. So much simpler

What if a caster could rapidly re-memorize his/her spells in a pinch?. It requires however 5 min of in a calm environment (not in combat to avoid the spaming of fireballs) but it is nevertheless a mentally exhausting process.

Rules: For every empty spell slot the caster has, he/she can make a spellcraft check of DC10 + 2x the spell level (so that it mostly work on low level spells) to recharge it with a spell of the said level. You fail the check, you cannot recharge the slot and in addition you become fatigued as a result. You can continue speed-reading a further time but this time you become exhausted if you fail your spellcraft check. This fatigue/exhaustion is magical in nature and can only be cured by 8 hours of rest. You can also use speed-reading to voluntarily change one of your memorized spell.

What is the point of having different PCs having different set of vision (darkvision, low light vision, normal vision) except make life difficult for the DM.

Don't you find a bit sad when you spend some time describing something to a player and then turn to another player and politely ask him to forget all what you've mentioned because his character cannot see it.

What exactly do different set of vision bring to the game?

Dear all,

One of the thing I hate the most as a DM is tracking ability score damages for monsters. Change a characteristic and the change impacts everything (Attack bonus, AC, Saves, HP, Skills...).

It might be easy for a player to track ability damage but as a DM it quickly becomes a pain when you are running an encounter with 4-5 monsters. Having to recalculate all the above in the heat of combat requires a significant book keeping that I would gladly get rid.

I would like to explore in this thread any alternative mechanism you may have come up to replace ability score damage and make the DM work easier.

Any clever idea?

Thank you for your kind answer

How about you die when you are below 10+your Fort save in negative HP. For a 20th level fighter this would give you a -22.

Is that enough to avoid a monster bringing you from a low number of HP to dead in a single attack?

You should die (otherwise where is the fun) but I also believe that your other party members should also have the opportunity to save you should they chose to do so.

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