I do wonder how spells would work for this, though. 9 different "paladin" spell lists strikes me as:a) A lot of work.
B) A lot of space in the book for stuff I will never use.
C) Perhaps more trouble than it is worth.Hmmmm.
Some ideas:
1: Do different (or differently aligned) paladins need wholly different powers, or just powers with inter-changeable parts?
Specify an "extreme" alignment axis (good, evil, lawful, chaotic) and derive smite/turning/casting/auras/ability-to-overcome-DR/etc from that point on the axis.
To make this less derivative of other riffs on this theme: Law encourages/rewards the same action, the same way; Chaos encourages/rewards different actions;
"Different" and "same" need to be qualified mechanically, I suggest same/law be seen in an immediate sense (not just attack the same target, but exact same type of attack) and chaos be more
distal (so more globally? If you cast on round 1, you can do anything casting related on round two to get the benefit/reward.)
Good encourages/rewards protective or restorative action; Chaos encourages/rewards damaging or threatening action;
2. Remove the divine flavor, add more martial and self-reliant features. The paladin doesn't have a mandate from heaven, but as long as he has his (LG) code, he's John McClane.
Just want to cast my vote that Paladins should remain Lawful Good. The only reason I don't play Paladins in 3.5 is because Clerics make better Paladins than Paladins themselves.
What I would very much like to see:
1) Make paladin a class any lawful character can take.
2) Get rid of the pokemount, replace it with something else (maybe a bond to an actual, existing mount that can't just be activated and deactivated at will).
3) Spell-lists shouldn't be much of a problem, since for almost every alignment-dependant spell there is a counterpart. Only LN might need "new" spells.
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Breaking it down by class means that you can do much more interesting powers that actually play to the alignment and the play style of people who tend to play that alignment. The chaotic neutral "paladin" doesn't need to have some boilerplate "version" of lay on hands, he can do something else more appropriate to his archetype.
I do wonder how spells would work for this, though. 9 different "paladin" spell lists strikes me as:
a) A lot of work.
B) A lot of space in the book for stuff I will never use.
C) Perhaps more trouble than it is worth.Hmmmm.
But theres all those lovely Domain power lists for alignment that could foot the bill.
I am not a fan of taking away the LG limit of paladins. If the aim of this re-write is to get the 2nd edition feel back, losing that alignment restriction is a big loss.
Paladins are the shining beacon of all that is good and holy.
That said, the mount is a waste of space in nearly every campaign I have run or played.
The turning ability as in the Alpha book, makes them a bit more useful.
I would like to see them get a few more abilities, maybe in a similar way to the Rogue list. possibly give them a single domain of their deity.
The other ideas listed above have some merit as well, something that gives them a power boost to make them an attractive class for players.
As to the original post in this thread. I hear your concerns about Paladins of non-LG alignments. For this to work, I feel that they would need to be specific classes. This is something we have tossed around the design pit a number of times (primarily in reference to the Hellknight). I am not sure that this solution is right for the core paladin. This may be a bigger sacred cow for me than it is for others.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Take away the horsie as a core benefit. Instead having 4 levels of gains.
Paladin = Mounted, LG and Code of Conduct
Dreadknight = Smiter of Chaos, LE(N) Strict code of law is all
Sentinel = Cohort, L(N) G, Protector of the people
Just some thoughts.
Make the code of conduct far more important than alignment, and the "Paladin" still retains its flavour.
I'm having a lot of trouble understanding the need for non-LG paladins in the Pathfinder rulebook. The goal of this book is to present a game that's generally backward compatible with v.3.5 and that's consonant with the traditions of D&D-style fantasy, one element of which is LG-only paladins.
Certainly there's room for non-LG holy warriors in Golarion or other settings, but is there a pressing need for them to be described in the core rulebook? Wouldn't something like this be better placed in a supplement or wherever? What am I missing here?
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And I agree that the blackguard should be the 20-level-class for LE "paladins."
No argument from me. I have ran an all Evils campaign a few years back and this would have saved me no end of grief. One of the players wanted to be a Blackguard but had to first play a Paladin in order to get there. It was quite a bit of work to keep her apart from the rest of the group until it was time for her to "fall". It was fun to watch but a train wreck on the DMing side of things.
I do wonder how spells would work for this, though. 9 different "paladin" spell lists strikes me as:
a) A lot of work.
B) A lot of space in the book for stuff I will never use.
C) Perhaps more trouble than it is worth.Hmmmm.
You know this could be a Pathfinder Cronicle suppliment and/or Web Enhancement/PDF. That at least would take care of taking up space in the core rule book.
I remember the Paramander/Paramandyr being a very cool option and a good way to introduce some ambiguity into a world that was a little too black and white. Of course this was some 25 years or so ago and since I've discovered lots more to add grey to my worlds. :D
Overall you may be right about the time and effort required to make this a viable product but I think it would add variety to the setting. It also gives the world a feeling that it may never have. However, if this doesn't fit with Golarion then no amount of talking will convince you otherwise.
I would still ask that the other requests I have made be considered still even if the many Holy Champions does not fit.
Thanks for your time,
Jester
For what it's worth, I would suggest "going back to the roots" - pull out the original Paladin from Gygax's 1st Edition and try to create something true to its feel. I have played Paladins in and out of games and editions for 25 years - but the first Paladin was always my favorite.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Ok my Paladin thoughts.
1) Clear code please, something akin to the Knight's code.
2) A sliding scale. I don't mind up to 6th level spells, since a) the Bard will be a d8 class and b) MAD will cause the paladin to sacrifice something, Str, Wis, Cha can't all be maxed out. But I do see the Paladin being to the Cleric, as the Cleric is to the Cloistered Cleric.
3) Paladins of other alignments? See Sidebar. Not a full section, but just general design notes. As much as I love Plethroa of Paladins, save it for a splat book.
4) Vary powers by domain selection. Much like the pathfinder cleric, allow paladins of different LG deities different flavour.
Edit: Forgot, 5) No Grey Guard (CAdv) please. Whoever came up with the idea that vigilante and paladin go together should be shot. With a hammer.
I know Paladins haven't shown up in the Alpha yet, but I wanted to pitch a couple ideas out there to get everyone primed.
-Skeld
Maybe Pathfinder's Paladin are an old chivalric order of Aroden. That is why they no longer cast any spell! just a thought.
Edit: Forgot, 5) No Grey Guard (CAdv) please. Whoever came up with the idea that vigilante and paladin go together should be shot. With a hammer.
You're obviously not a fan of "Rooster Cogburn," then, hey, Pilgrim?
I like the idea of retaining LG-paladins, but by the same token I also like the thought of the blackguard class. It makes sense balance wise. A chaotic-aligned holy warrior is also interesting. Just don't call them paladins.
I have seen a mount used effectively and I have seen a mount used poorly. I think that paladins should retain the ability to summon a warhorse, but be given the option of having a different ability if they don't want a mount (such as summoning a suit of armor or weapon).
Cool supernatural abilities instead of spells is also interesting.
I just read through the whole thread. I think a solution to the Paladin question has already been brought up. A Holy Warrior I feel is the way to to go. And the alignment issue shouldn't really be one. You can still use a code of conduct system, but the code is based either on alignment or specifically to the worshiped god. Even if you have a CG Paladin that performs an evil act, the break the code. Same applies if that same Paladin decides to capture a villain and bring him to the law instead of killing him outright. That could break the code. I'm not saying its not a lot of design work, but once done it would fix a lot of problems.
Also since Pathfinder is using a known skills over a point system, perhaps the class skills for a Paladin are based on their God. If you are a Paladin of an Sneaky Evil God, then you should be able to have steathy as a class skill. This idea would apply to armor you can wear or weapons you can use.
And giving them spell-like abilities as another post mention is a great idea. Like the new cleric design, they chose domain and gain abilities from them. Also some of these ideas (God effects class skills) should then also apply to clerics as well.
I know people love the idea of the Paladin. I personally love playing them myself. But all they really are is Divine Warriors. If you are a LG Divine Warrior, you are a paladin. LE - Blackguard. Anyway that's my two cents.
I had a discussion with my other half last night on paladins, and after some thought, the conclusion that he came to was correct: there is not a clear enough separation between a cleric and a paladin.
A cleric can wear plate mail and charge into battle in their god's name.
A paladin can wear plate mail and charge into battle...in their god's name...
That point aside, I don't think there needs to be a paladin of every alignment. Lawful alignments, yes. Blackguard = LE paladin, Justicar = LN paladin works for me.
I don't like the paladin spellcasting. Doesn't really fit in my idea of what a paladin encompasses and should be altered in some fashion to fit in with the divine warrior ideal. Auras have been suggested - not a bad idea, just not exactly original. I want original. :P Domain powers come to mind, but select one only instead of two.
Another point the other half made, and it's a good one, is putting more emphasis on the connection to the divine. Your power flows from the divine, but how is that made clear in the rules? There is no clear delineation besides spells and domain powers between a cleric of Zon-Kuthon and Norgorber (for example). A paladin of Shelyn should be different than a paladin of Iomedae, and I think this needs to be emphasized more than it has been in the past.
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I am a long time player and fan of Paladins. Having said that I would like to see some changes In the previous editions, 1st and 2nd, Paladins were special because not everybody could be one, and thus you didn't have whole orders of hundreds of Paladins because there simply weren't that many in the world.
To use an example, in King Arthur's court there were only one or two Knights who could be considered Paladins. Lancelot being the main choice. And that is supposed to be the gathering of the best of the best of Knighthood during that age.
Then there were the twelve peers of Charlemagne. This is a man who commanded perhaps hundreds of thousands of men, but stories tell of only twelve of them that could possibly be considered Paladins.
More to a point, Paladins were originally Holy Knights who served their gods, or even just the cause of good, as Knights. They also often were forced to work alone, or only with limited numbers of people because most couldn't stand to be around them, hence the anger of the other Knights of the Round Table when Lancelot showed up and proved himself better than them. I like the idea of a Paladin having a 'Squire' instead of a special war-horse if the player so chooses.
I would like less emphasis put on the spells and powers and more on combat ability. Perhaps take away spells all-together and instead offer up some combat feats which work well on both foot and mounted combat. But limit their access to ranged weapons since the legends that gave birth to the Paladin class refer to them as distaining ranged combat as lacking in honor or chivalry.
Sorry for such a long post, but I just want to say that I feel this is a great oppertunity to return the Paladin to its' roots as the epitimy of an ideal instead of where it seems to have been going in 3.5.
Now, where's my lance. I think I see a windmill...
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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A few scattershot thoughts -
1) A paladin always smites evil. Just take the smite evil ability and weaken it a little - maybe a paladin always gets a +1 to hit evil creatures and always does extra damage according to their charisma bonus with every hit. Perhaps the actual smite evil ability could be yanked, or renamed and reworked. Just a little benefit for playing a paladin on the straight and narrow.
2) Definitely keep the immunity to disease. Since diseases and sickness will now affect PCs of all levels, this becomes a boon (rather than a useless ability) to paladins. Also, perhaps at about 7th level or so, a Paladin picks up an immunity to poisons of a certain strength. Maybe their poison immunity is equal to the Paladin's level plus their charisma modifier, all poisons of that DC or lower Paladins are simply able to shrug off.
3) More differentiation among Paladins of different gods. At 5th level, when one typically got the "special mount", the Paladin now becomes an "Exemplar" to others of their faith. Depending on the god they worship (and really, only a couple gods are lawful and would have paladin orders dedicated to them) they proceed down a different track and pick up extra goodies. One god's exemplars grant the special mount abilities and have supreme mounted cavalry. Another god could grant a mystical bond with the paladin's holy sword, and that weapon improves with experience. Another god's exemplars sprout rudimentary wings, and eventually the Paladin can fly with them.
Just some thoughts to making the class more attractive.
My biggest problem with Paladins is that detect evil ruins too many plots.
And I like the name "Anti-paladin". It's retro.
I agree on this count.
That point aside, I don't think there needs to be a paladin of every alignment. Lawful alignments, yes. Blackguard = LE paladin, Justicar = LN paladin works for me.
I think this is a good idea. I like the names too.
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Ditch the paladin, replace it with a decent Knight class or Cavalier (no not those old classes as currently written, brand new ones).
You should be able to create a similar "paladin" from those classes.
LG Knight who follows chivalry (paladin)
LN Knight who works for money (mercenary)
LE Knight who works for a dread lord/evil (Blackguard)
Just make it a good class and you can fold quite a few archetypes under that umbrella.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Well a paladin is supposed to be a character that has sworn an oath to a Code and has been given some supernatural abilities to help him up hold that code. So the question is: does he need a whole spell list to represent that, or could you just give him some neat tricks and special supernatural abilities every couple of levels? If you just give him SU abilities instead of an entire spell list then customizing for varying alignments would be a lot easier.
Give him supernatural abilities in the same way rogues get talents. A list of abilities that the player picks from every few levels, have some of the abilities themed according to alignment. Then the player picks and chooses the abilities that are appropriate to his alignment and Code.
Woah. You could dump paladin spells entirely, weaving some of the common abilities (bless weapon) into class abilities (which the paladin needs after mid-level anyway). I played one up to 17th level and I only ever cast two or three different paladin spells.
I wouldn't miss paladin spells at all.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Certainly there's room for non-LG holy warriors in Golarion or other settings, but is there a pressing need for them to be described in the core rulebook? Wouldn't something like this be better placed in a supplement or wherever? What am I missing here?
The Pathfinder RPG core rules will not have nine separate classes for paladins of different alignments. It will have one class, the paladin.
The ball is in Jason's court and I don't mean to shame him publicly, but I think it would be a mistake to make the core paladin something other than lawful good.
Eight other "paladins"? Maybe. But not in this book.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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As to the original post in this thread. I hear your concerns about Paladins of non-LG alignments. For this to work, I feel that they would need to be specific classes. This is something we have tossed around the design pit a number of times (primarily in reference to the Hellknight). I am not sure that this solution is right for the core paladin. This may be a bigger sacred cow for me than it is for others.
Thoughts?
It's a pretty big cow for this poster as well. Taking the alignment away from the paladin makes it the dedication required to be one less special - you just pick the behavior you want, then a god to match that alignment.
I'd love to see non-paladin alignment restricted holy (or unholy) warriors. I've used paladins of tyranny and holy liberators, and had fun with both.
Keep the paladin as more than just a ball of class abilities :)
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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More to a point, Paladins were originally Holy Knights who served their gods, or even just the cause of good, as Knights. They also often were forced to work alone, or only with limited numbers of people because most couldn't stand to be around them, hence the anger of the other Knights of the Round Table when Lancelot showed up and proved himself better than them. I like the idea of a Paladin having a 'Squire' instead of a special war-horse if the player so chooses.
That was really an exemplary post. I especially appreciated the reference to the Knights of the Round Table. My memories are a bit rusty, but I think perhaps Galahad would qualify as a paladin. In my view Lancelot's messing around with Arthur's wife would have definitely caused him to "lose" his paladinhood (and possibly something else, nudge nudge).
At first I was really jazzed about swapping out the horse for a squire, but wouldn't that be better for a knight core class in a follow-up book?
I am starting to see a book developing that contains 10-20 "core" core classes. Stuff that everyone would want like shadow mage, knight, witch doctor, witch, cavalier, etc.
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Paladins being lawful good only is a pretty big sacred cow for me. I realize that it is in many ways irrational, but it turns out I don't always get to consciously decide which parts of the game I find important and which ones I'm flexible on.
And I agree that the blackguard should be the 20-level-class for LE "paladins."
Breaking it down by class means that you can do much more interesting powers that actually play to the alignment and the play style of people who tend to play that alignment. The chaotic neutral "paladin" doesn't need to have some boilerplate "version" of lay on hands, he can do something else more appropriate to his archetype.
I do wonder how spells would work for this, though. 9 different "paladin" spell lists strikes me as:
a) A lot of work.
B) A lot of space in the book for stuff I will never use.
C) Perhaps more trouble than it is worth.Hmmmm.
The Paladin is the Guardian of Life (there were never realy any rules on that other than the Idea that Lawful Good people never take a life even in defense because there are always options...including deportation by ship of civilization's vermin.
Primitive Paladins are that guy the rest of the tribe sacrifices to hold the other line out there in the darkness beyond the line of acceptable reality. He is not the guy they pat on the back and welcome home after he has crushed an army of undead. The is the tainted one who was sacrificed so others would not become tainted. Once he salies forth to battle the ultimate evil, he is expected to stay out there forever.
That is when they begin training the next sacrifice...Paladin.
Beyond that I would Say the Paladin is Lawful Good but Lawful Good in the extreem, not "I kill this guy cause he's a murder and bury him in a shallow grave" LG, rather "the Healers can raise him from the dead to stand trial" LG, or even better the "I arrest you in the name of the Law" LG.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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That was really an exemplary post. I especially appreciated the reference to the Knights of the Round Table. My memories are a bit rusty, but I think perhaps Galahad would qualify as a paladin. In my view Lancelot's messing around with Arthur's wife would have definitely caused him to "lose" his paladinhood (and possibly something else, nudge nudge).
Galahad and Percival for certain. Bors probably as well (though he's potrayed quite differently from that standard in T. H. White's Once and Future King). These were the three knights that were holy enough to witness the grail's mysteries. I tend to think of Lancelot as more uber-fighter than paladin, which would relate to why Galahad (the pure of heart) was one of the only knights to unhorse him.
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Ditch the paladin, replace it with a decent Knight class or Cavalier (no not those old classes as currently written, brand new ones).
You should be able to create a similar "paladin" from those classes.LG Knight who follows chivalry (paladin)
LN Knight who works for money (mercenary)
LE Knight who works for a dread lord/evil (Blackguard)
Just make it a good class and you can fold quite a few archetypes under that umbrella.
A lot of the problem is much of these things are covered by Cultural Templates (something that needs to be considered). If you want a Knight - begin with your fighter with basic skills and feats a Squire would require, advance to the horseless knight who runs out with a polearm to kill a knight and take his horse, then on to the Horsemanship, estates, and betrayal of ones brothers to the Saracens.
Even with Paladins Lawful Good means putting down the Lawful Good Regimes.
COnsider the Lawful Good Paladin being asked by his God to overthrow Monarchy and impose a Commonwealth where everyone must vote regularly on the status quo. The Aristocracy doesnt want change. The Church doesnt want to lose power, the Wealthy dont want to be considered equals of the Poor, Guilds dont want every one to be educated in their skills...
Consider being told by your god to remove the King who wont step aside for the Commonwealth and is likely to start a war cost thousands of lives in open conflict to stop your Paladin.
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But theres all those lovely Domain power lists for alignment that could foot the bill.We're getting closer to the answer, I think.
Also: Any paladin players out there really care about the horse?
This one says no. In one 1.75e game I played, the DM allowed me to swap out some abilities (including the special mount) for a summonable weapon made of divine energy. I think this would be an interesting option for paladins in 3P. In fact, if there were several options (including the standard mount feature)that could selected from, it would go a ways to diversify the paladin class.
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Thank you Erik Mona. The Paladin has always held a special place in my heart, and I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one who thinks of the class this way.
And, to answer an earlier question, I am a fan of the special mount, but wouldn't mind seeing rules for a different ability for those Paladins who won't have access to a mount, adventuring underground ect. Please, though, don't replace this feature.
Now, as for Lance, he really was a Paladin. I recal that before he actualy had a relationship with Gwen he was able to perform some rather special tasks. Lay on Hands is taken directly from hi healing of a downed Knight who was dying thanks to a blow that Lance delivered himself. It is told that he was able to do this because he was so pure and holy. Then, even after his fall, he remained a powerful fighter capable of beating most of the other Knights in single combat or at the lists.
It's been a while since I read Once and Future King, so I can't speak currently on the others, but I agree that they make good examples.
I fully support keeping the Paladin as a Lawful Good only class, with a Blackguard as Lawful Evil. Also, please make the Blackguard worthy of the Black Knight idea. I would like to see a mighty opponent who is willing to use, abuse, and violate the laws of chivalry to gain even the slightest advantage, but who can still stand toe to toe against a Paladin or face him with horse and lance and stand an equal chance. Its' all about maintaining the balance between hero and villian with the classes.
Sorry for writing so much, but this is the one topic I am really passionate about. I really look forward to playtesting the Pie Stuffing out of whatever class you guys and gals come up with.
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"Ditching the paladin" is not an option, nor is adding the knight. The cavalier has a stronger claim, but still no. This is about preserving the conceptual framework of the third edition core rules, which includes a paladin core class.
Heh I get the feeling I'm gnawing on some sacred cows here.
Well then as I see you'll have to change two things. First is well I think people choose paladin for the uber abilities, not the character concept. Being able to smite, heal self, and get really good saves generally makes for a more appealing choice than a fighter.Second is the behavior bludgeon. How many times do you hear about the paladin vs rogue fights? It gets even worse when the party leans toward the grey or darker side. What are you going to do? Kill another pc? Hide your actions from him, or just ignore the admonishment being dished out constantly? Paladins are buzzkills.
I think the key here is options. When I look at the other classes as presented in the alpha document, I tend to see all the ways in which one wizard can be made distinct from another, or one fighter from another and so forth.
Historically, for a paladin, options have been rather limited. Customisable features are basically limited to choice of weaponry and gear (common to all characters), special mounts (not usable in all situations), and spell selection (pretty limited). Otherwise, mechanically, one paladin is much the same as another.
Allowing paladins to select domains is definitely a step in the right direction, but I think it can be taken further. Why not work the Code into the rules? Allow a paladin to meditate upon the Code each morning and decide which parts in particular he will draw inspiration and strength from that day. Perhaps two to begin with, and increasing with level.
A few simple examples of possible codes follow:
Lay Low the Wicked - The paladin gains an additional two uses of smite evil per day, and doubles his level for purposes of damage dealt.
Uphold the Law - The paladin gains +2 to all diplomacy checks, and the attitude of all lawful individuals dealing with him is automatically improved by one step.
Defend the Weak - The paladin gains Aura of Courage, and may trade places with any adjacent character once per round as a free action once an attack has been declared against them.
Heal the Sick - The paladin gains divine health and lay on hands.
Seek the Truth - The paladin gains +2 to all saving throws against illusion effects, and is entitled to a saving throw against any illusion he comes within 10' of, even if he does not interact with it.
Yes, I've mercilessly stolen the effects from elsewhere, and I'm sure they all need balancing, but I think the basic idea has merit. The beauty of the code system is that it's extensible, and characters of differing alignments can subscribe to different codes. A blackguard, for instance, might subscribe to Uphold the Law, Cast Down the Good, and Protect the Lie, while a CE character (insofar as they follow any code whatsoever) might favour Cast Down the Good, Trust No One and Let It All Burn.
WotC did the best version of the Paladin with the Knight from the PHB 2.
Here's why:
1) It had a clear code of what it was and wasn't allowed to do.
2) It had clear drawbacks for breaking the code (but didn't require a magic spell to re-instate its abilities)
3) Had some really nifty abilities (Those Knightly Challenges are fun to play).
So while you can't use the Knight (because it isn't OGL), there was a lot of design space opened up by the Knight that could be used with the paladin.
Example Paladin Oaths -
Each Odd Numbered Level the paladin swears a new Oath to their god. The oath adds a new restriction on its actions and a new ability any use activated Oath can be used a number of times equal to the amount of Oaths the Paladin has, or is always active so long as he has not broken his oath(as described under the individual oath).
Oath of Courage - The paladin is immune to fear and gives his allies a +4 bonus on saves against fear effects.
In return the Paladin does not gain a +2 bonus to attacks when flanking an opponent. If the Paladin does take the +2 bonus then he loses his immunity to Fear, and his allies take a -4 penalty on Fear effects because they lose faith in their friend. If he does he loses this oath for 24 hours.
Oath of Compassion - The paladin gains the ability to heal the injured and infirm. The paladin may as a standard action make a Heal Check, allies recover an amount of HP equal to the Heal Check Result divided by 5.
In return the Paladin swears never to end the life of a helpless foe. The Paladin may not take the coup de grace action, if he does he loses this oath for 24 hours.
Oath of Protection - The paladin gains the ability to protect the weak. At any time the paladin may forgo his next action and take the damage one ally within 30 feet would take. The Paladin channels the pain of his allies into himself.
In return the Paladin swears to always offer his opponents the chance to surrender. In the first round of combat a paladin must spend a move-action offering peace terms to any intelligent opponent he faces, or lose access to this Oath for 24 hours.
Oath of Justice - The paladin gains the ability to seek retribution against his foes. As part of an attack action the paladin may activate his oath of Justice, he gains a bonus to damage equal to half the damage dealt by the opponent within the last round.
In return the Paladin swears to honour Justice with truth, and may not make a deception check even to feint in combat.
Oath of Fealty - The paladin gains a +1 bonus to any skill check related to the Portfolio of his chosen deity. This bonus increases by +1 for each Oath the Paladin has active, to a maximum of +10 at 20th level.
In return the Paladin swears to honor his God with an hour of prayer every morning. A paladin who does not take this hour of prayer loses the Oath of Fealty for 24 hours.
Oath of Honour - The paladin may challenge an opponent in the name of his God. The opponent must make a Will save against a DC of 10+Paladin's Charisma+Active Oaths, on a failed save the creature can attack only the paladin and must use its action to attempt to make at least one attack.
In return the Paladin swears to fight only with honor, and give his opponents a fair chance to ready themselves against his onslaught. If a paladin attacks a flat-footed opponent he loses this Oath for 24 hours.
(You'd need at least 5 more oaths, but this is the gist of it).
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As to the original post in this thread. I hear your concerns about Paladins of non-LG alignments. For this to work, I feel that they would need to be specific classes. This is something we have tossed around the design pit a number of times (primarily in reference to the Hellknight). I am not sure that this solution is right for the core paladin. This may be a bigger sacred cow for me than it is for others.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
You might consider doing an update of the UA alternate classes once the final product is out to bring them in line with the new Pathfinder stuff. That'll let individual GMs tailor their mix of classes to their liking.
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"Ditching the paladin" is not an option, nor is adding the knight. The cavalier has a stronger claim, but still no. This is about preserving the conceptual framework of the third edition core rules, which includes a paladin core class.
Heh I get the feeling I'm gnawing on some sacred cows here.
Well then as I see you'll have to change two things. First is well I think people choose paladin for the uber abilities, not the character concept. Being able to smite, heal self, and get really good saves generally makes for a more appealing choice than a fighter.Second is the behavior bludgeon. How many times do you hear about the paladin vs rogue fights? It gets even worse when the party leans toward the grey or darker side. What are you going to do? Kill another pc? Hide your actions from him, or just ignore the admonishment being dished out constantly? Paladins are buzzkills.
Don't get me wrong, I like the class abilities of paladins, and I don't like the shiny armor that usually goes with 'em, but the whole "uncompromising righteous warrior" thing is the real draw to the class for me. I tend to play a more urban paladin with no mount, light armor, and dark clothing, but that just means he goes looking for evil in its natural habitat.
That was really an exemplary post. I especially appreciated the reference to the Knights of the Round Table. My memories are a bit rusty, but I think perhaps Galahad would qualify as a paladin. In my view Lancelot's messing around with Arthur's wife would have definitely caused him to "lose" his paladinhood (and possibly something else, nudge nudge).
At first I was really jazzed about swapping out the horse for a squire, but wouldn't that be better for a knight core class in a follow-up book?
I love the paladin as a class. When I'm not behind the DM screen, the paladin is one of my favorite classes to play. I disagree with comments that the class is played for uber-abilities rather than flavor. When I play a paladin, and when my players tell me about how they are conceptualizing a character, we are often comparing the PC to Knights of the Round table. They are champions of order and good. That needs to be retained.
In another flavor context, one fighter PC died. When he was raised from the dead, he took up the mantle of Paladin to atone for his past and the gift of new life.
Other thoughts =
Mount: I'd hate to see this go, but I admit the mount rarely sees use. I can only think of one campaign where we even had much in the way of mounted combat, but the party contained a paladin, cavalier, and some type of mounted wizard. Perhaps, the mount can be an option to be chosen. I like the idea of a squire to replace the mount.
Spells: I could lose the spells. They rarely come into play or seem to be forgotten. I would rather see additional powers or abilities at higher levels. I like the idea of divine abilities that are options at higher levels.
Other Holy Warrior Types: I like the Champion class in Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed. I would like to see something along this line, and I feel it may be easier to fit the Holy Warrior type to an ideal rather than be catered to a specific god.
Oaths: A paladin is bound by a sacred oath. Needs to be kept.
Lawful Good: This is a must. I don't agree that this causes rifts in a party, if party cohesiveness has been considered in the first place.
I am starting to see a book developing that contains 10-20 "core" core classes. Stuff that everyone would want like shadow mage, knight, witch doctor, witch, cavalier, etc.
This is a great idea. I'm a fan of several classes in Arcana Unearthed for example, so this really does appeal to me.
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Ok my Paladin thoughts.
1) Clear code please, something akin to the Knight's code.
2) A sliding scale. I don't mind up to 6th level spells, since a) the Bard will be a d8 class and b) MAD will cause the paladin to sacrifice something, Str, Wis, Cha can't all be maxed out. But I do see the Paladin being to the Cleric, as the Cleric is to the Cloistered Cleric.
3) Paladins of other alignments? See Sidebar. Not a full section, but just general design notes. As much as I love Plethroa of Paladins, save it for a splat book.
4) Vary powers by domain selection. Much like the pathfinder cleric, allow paladins of different LG deities different flavour.
Edit: Forgot, 5) No Grey Guard (CAdv) please. Whoever came up with the idea that vigilante and paladin go together should be shot. With a hammer.
Grey guard is closed content anyway, so they CAN'T convert it. However, I disagree wholeheartedly with your assessment. I liked that prestige class because it fit very well into a specific place in my campaign world. If you think about it, it also goes exceedingly well with deities like ST. Cuthbert or Pholtus in Greyhawk, Hoar, Tyr, or Helm in the Realms, and the Silver Flame in Eberron. Not every deity a paladin devotes himself to is going to be all brilliant banners and polished armor, and not all of them are going to be completely unsympathetic to the idea that the ends justify the means now and again. The idea that a paladin can be put in a catch-22 situation where every choice is wrong and he loses his powers no matter what he does with very little thought and even less effort strains my suspension of disbelief well past the breaking point, especially since a lot of DMs like to make that loss permanent. I do, however, agree with wholeheartedly on the whole code issue. Spell it out in excruciatingly precise detail and make it standard so people who decide to play a paladin don't have to worry about being "damned if they do and damned if they don't".
I wouldn't miss paladin spells at all.
The paladin class from Supplement I did not have spells; that wasn't introduced till AD&D, so swapping out the paladin's spells would be, in a weird way, a return to the OD&D conception of the class, which is nifty.
That said, a spell-less paladin would be quite different than the v.3.5 version, which could be a problem.
Eight other "paladins"? Maybe. But not in this book.
Thank you.
This is about preserving the conceptual framework of the third edition core rules
I think this needs to be emblazoned in big red letters at the top of each Alpha playtest sub-forum. I certainly don't want to discourage anyone's creativity or suggest it's wrong to "think outside the box," but a lot of what I see on these boards are suggestions and ideas that would make Pathfinder not just superficially but fundamentally a different game than v.3.5. That's not the goal here and I think we'd be of greater help to Paizo if we keep Erik's words here in mind.
More wide reaching changes can come at a later date, in the form of supplements and so forth, but Pathfinder is about preserving v.3.5 except in those places where it's either outright broken or unduly complex. The paladin has a few minor issues, like most base classes, but it's not broken; it doesn't need a total overhaul.
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A few months ago, I posted a rebuilt from the ground up version of the paladin that I was tinkering with. I think that Archade posted his take on it (we play together, so he steals a lot of my ideas :P) somewhere in this forum, but I'm too lazy to look it up. ;)
Basically, it makes the paladin a non-caster with abilites very similar to a dragon shaman (auras, lay on hands that can remove conditions), only with martial weapons, full armour prof (except towers) and 1/1 BAB.
We are currently playtesting it in my AoW campaign. So far, it seems to be a very balanced class and is almost totally compatible with existing materials. The exception being devine metamagic and devine feats that use up turn attempts. My fix for that is that those feats use up smite attempts instead.
Anyhoo, here it is. If you like it, please use it:
Paladin
Alignment: Lawful good.
Hit Die: d10
Class Skills:
The paladin’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), and Sense Motive (Wis).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) ×4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier.
Table: The Paladin
Lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Class Ability Auras Known
1 +1 +2 +0 +0 Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite 1/Day (Magic) -
2 +2 +3 +0 +0 Divine Grace, Lay on Hands -
3 +3 +3 +1 +1 Divine Health, Holy Conviction -
4 +4 +4 +1 +1 Holy Aura +1 1
5 +5 +4 +1 +1 Smite 2/day (Lawful or Good) 1
6 +6/+1 +5 +2 +2 Companion, Lay on Hands (Improved) 1
7 +7/+2 +5 +2 +2 Bonus Feat 2
8 +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 Holy Aura +2 2
9 +9/+4 +6 +3 +3 Lay on Hands (Greater) 2
10 +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 Smite 3/day (Cold Iron or Silver) 3
11 +11/+6/+5 +7 +3 +3 Bonus Feat 3
12 +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 Holy Aura +3 3
13 +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4 Lay on Hands (Superior) 4
14 +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 Holy Conviction (Share With Allies) 4
15 +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5 Bonus Feat 4
16 +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 Smite 4/day (Adamantine), Holy Aura +4 5
17 +17/+12/+7/+1 +10 +5 +5 - 5
18 +18/+12/+7/+2 +11 +6 +6 - 5
19 +19/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6 Bonus Feat 6
20 +20/+14/+9/+4 +12 +6 +6 Smite 5/day (Epic), Holy Aura +5 6
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the paladin.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Paladins are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (except tower shields).
Aura of Good (Ex)
The power of a paladin’s aura of good (see the detect good spell) is equal to her paladin level.
Detect Evil (Sp)
At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell.
Smite (Su)
A paladin may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack. She adds her paladin level attack and damage rolls, and the weapon counts as magical for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction or harming incorporeal foes. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, then Smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up. A paladin may Smite 1 + Cha bonus (if any) times per day.
At 5th level, a paladin’s smite attack counts as good or lawful aligned for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. A 10th level paladin’s smite counts as silver or cold iron. At 15th level, the paladin’s smite attempt counts as adamantine, and at 20th level the paladin’s smite attempt counts as Epic.
Divine Grace (Su)
At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws.
Lay on Hands (Su)
Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin with a Charisma score of 12 or higher can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can heal a total number of hit points of damage equal to her paladin level × her Charisma bonus. A paladin may choose to divide her healing among multiple recipients, and she doesn’t have to use it all at once. She may also sacrifice 5 points of healing to remove 1 point of ability damage or remove the Dazed, Fatigued or Sickened condition from one individual. Using lay on hands is a standard action.
At higher levels, the Paladin may use Lay on Hands to have additional effects. At 6th level, a paladin may sacrifice 10 points of healing to remove the Exhausted, Nauseated, Poisoned or Stunned condition. At 9th level, she may sacrifice 20 points of healing to remove a negative level or Blinded, Deafened, Diseased or Paralyzed conditions. At 13th level, she may spend 40 points to restore 1 point of ability or level drain or remove a Curse, Domination or Geas effect.
Alternatively, a paladin can use any or all of this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures. Using lay on hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. The paladin decides how many of her daily allotment of points to use as damage after successfully touching an undead creature.
Holy Conviction (Su)
Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise). At 14th level, the paladin may share this ability with all allies within 30’ as long as she is alive and conscious.
Divine Health (Ex)
At 3rd level, a paladin gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Holy Aura (Su)
Starting at 4th level, a paladin can begin to project the favour of their in the form of a magical aura (see Holy Auras sidebar). These auras can protect her companions or demoralize evil foes.
Projecting an aura is a swift action, and a paladin can only project one aura at a time. An aura remains in effect until the she uses a free action to dismiss it or project a new one in its place. It may be active continuously, and may be in effect even before an encounter begins. Auras affect all allies (including the paladin) within a 30’ radius with line of effect. It is automatically dismissed if you become unconscious or dead, but remains active if you are otherwise incapacitated and unable to act (eg. Paralyzed),
The bonus granted by the aura is +1, and increases by +1 every 4 levels (8th, 12th, 16th, 20th). The paladin may only learn a limited number of auras and cannot change them once they are selected.
Paladin Holy Auras:
Succour: Allies gain fast healing equal to the paladin’s aura bonus. Characters may only heal until half of their original HP are recovered.
Steadfastness: Allies gain a morale bonus to their saving throws equal to twice the paladin’s aura bonus.
Peace: Allies gain a morale bonus to Diplomacy and Heal Checks equal to twice the paladin’s aura bonus
Defiance: Allies gain DR/Evil equal to twice the paladin’s aura bonus.
Puissance: Allies gain a bonus to damage rolls equal to the paladin’s aura bonus.
Lifekeeping: Allies may ignore negative levels inflicted by necromantic effects and energy drain. Each ally may ignore one negative level per point of the Paladin’s aura bonus. Once the maximum number of negative levels have been cancelled, the ally may not take advantage of them again that encounter, even if the paladin projects the aura again.
Wrath: Evil foes suffer a morale penalty to their saving throws equal to the paladin’s aura bonus. Undead suffer double this penalty and it applies to turn resistance too.
Companion (Ex)
At 5th level, a paladin attracts a special follower. They may choose from a Mortal or Celestial Companion. All companions are Lawful Good. Calling a Companion takes 24 hours of uninterrupted prayer and meditation.
A Mortal Companion is a fighter of the paladin’s race. They begin play 2 levels lower than the paladin and progress as a regular NPC Cohort (see the Leadership feat). Celestial Companions are extraplanar magical beasts (celestial template) or outsiders that are sympathetic to the Paladin’s cause. The ECL of a celestial Companion is 2 below that of the paladin. If the paladin calls upon a celestial magical beast that is willing to serve as a mount, ignore the LA of +2 when calculating its ECL.
If a Companion dies, the paladin may attract a new one immediately. If the paladin ceases to be Lawful Good or looses her class abilities, the Companion departs and a new one must be called if her status is restored. A paladin may still select Leadership as a feat, but the Companion counts as a familiar, for the purposes of determining the other cohort’s level.
Bonus Feat:
At 7th, 11th and 14th levels, a paladin may select a bonus feat from the following list. They must still meet the feat’s perquisites in order to select it: Cleave, Extra Smiting, Great Cleave, Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Power Attack, Ride-By Attack, Skill Focus (Ride), Spirited Charge, and Trample.
Code of Conduct
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Associates
While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.
Ex-Paladins
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin auras and abilities (including their Companion, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies or bonus feats). She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.
Like a member of any other class, a paladin may be a multiclass character, but multiclass paladins face a special restriction. A paladin who gains a level in any class other than paladin may never again raise her paladin level, though she retains all her paladin abilities.
A Note Regarding Divine Feats:
The notable absence of Turn Undead from the paladin’s class abilities would appear to make them no longer qualified to take divine feats. To remedy this, count the Smite ability as the prerequisite instead of Turn Undead. Obviously, divine metamagic (any metamagic feats, really) are not useful to the class as they are no longer spellcasters.
I think we're forgetting something in this discussion. I'm wondering, who exactly is the champion for the evil gods? There's certainly no fewer of them than there are good gods.
Let me make my case here.
A good god imbues certain agents with his divine power. These agents also known as clerics, have the ability to heal the sick, destroy undead and champion for the cause of their divine patron. The good god also imbues certain righteous people with their divine power so they can act as their "military presence" in the material world. Defending the virtues they uphold as well as the innocent, etc.
To me a paladin is a martial oriented cleric really, a battle priest there to defeat with might what the clerics are unable to defeat using wisdom.
However, just as there are clerics that worship an evil god there should be the iconic champions of those evil gods. There are few things more memorable as when the champion of Good meets his Evil counterpart. The two are evenly matched but fiercely opposed in ideology and in essence and they duke it out, perhaps above a pit of lava with maidens hanging from ledges.
The core classes in D&D are by design morally ambiguous. A rogue can be ruthless or like Robin Hood, a warrior can be merciful or bloodthirsty, a wizard can use his magic for the good of all or just cackle as he turns peasants into running torches. I propose that IF we're going to bolt down one class in a certain type of behaviour then there needs to be a counterpart class that is opposite; alternatively make the class able to swing both ways.
I'm for the swinging Paladin. Those that have a hard time grasping it, imagine a Light side Jedi as opposed to a Sith (I've got almost no further knowledge of Jedi, so lets keep it simple =D).
Furthermore, I find that paladins should be more succeptable to corruption rather than "ah you used a swearword, powers are gone lol". I've generally DM'ed it in such a way that a Paladin, a paragon of virtue and justice, feels the subtle temptation to use his power selfishly or in a harsher manner than his God would dictate. I don't know if I'm suggesting specific rules for this, but rather that it be considered.
Imagine a Paladin that, by accident perhaps, slays an innocent. His god is furious with his chosen champion and revokes the divine favor bestowed upon him. The paladin is distraught and as he wallows in regret a cloying voice reaches into his mind and exalts him for his deeds and offers him even greater power than he knew before. He wrestles with his morals and decides to take up the mantle for this other God...temporarily only in his mind but he has sealed his fate and is now a champion of evil.
I find that NOT including the option to turn your paladin evil in the core rules is a big mistake and removes a whole spectrum from the game.
Currently if a paladin messes up he loses all his powers until he casts a spell (atonement). Yey...how fun. No slip into corruption, no fighting temptation, no ability to renounce the whole good thing and turn to evil.
Certainly alot of what I'm suggesting is a matter for roleplaying and not core rules. But I don't see why including the option for a evil paladin (a Blackguard, anti-paladin what have you) is so bad.
Thoughts?
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In my groups testing of our "3.75" D&D game, we gave the Paladin a bonus feat list. Below is an excerpt.
"Bonus Feats: Starting at 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus feat from the following list: Cleave, Diehard, Heroic Surge, Improved Critical, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Leadership, Mounted Combat, Power Attack, Ride-By-Attack, Spirited Charge, and Trample. A paladin must still meet all prerequisites for this bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.
Upon obtaining 10th level, a paladin can choose any Divine feat instead of this bonus feat."
We also changed ALL immunities granted by classes or races to a +10 to saving throws, such as the Paladin's immunity to fear. A low level Paladin should still be able to be frightened by dragon's fear aura!
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a couple of follow on comments:
1) I love the horse flavor, but you rarely get a chance to use it. I can safely say that there was only 1 time I really ever used a paladin on a horse and that was with a halfling on a wardog. Basically you need a small character riding a small-medium mount in order for it to work in a dungeon environment. I would be sad to see the horse go, but normally you do nto get a chance to use it.
2) Paladins should be tied their diety's code of conduct, not just a random set of LG morality concepts. The class has got to be playable. I have known DM's to really hamstring paladins with a bunch of extra-nonsense that makes the class un-playable. Different dieties should have slightly different codes of conduct, that are in keeping with what the diety stands for.
2) Paladins should be tied their diety's code of conduct, not just a random set of LG morality concepts. The class has got to be playable. I have known DM's to really hamstring paladins with a bunch of extra-nonsense that makes the class un-playable. Different dieties should have slightly different codes of conduct, that are in keeping with what the diety stands for.
This sounds like a DM problem, not a paladin problem. As described in the v.3.5 SRD, a paladin must adhere to the precepts of the Lawful Good alignment ("She tells the truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished.") with a few additional paladin-specific elements ("she respect[s] legitimate authority, act[s] with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help[s] those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish[es] those who harm or threaten innocents."). That's a very broadly applicable moral code, regardless of a paladin's deity.