All The World’s Indeed A Stage and We Are Merely Players!

That's pretty snazzy but I don't see the system requirements listed anywhere? :/

That last link doesn't seem to lead to a weekly Pathfinder Online blog.

That's pretty snazzy but I don't see the system requirements listed anywhere? :/

Because development is ongoing, it is not optimised yet. Runs best on newer systems in windowed mode, that have a separate graphics card and good fans. Runs fine windows 7 64 bit and window 8. There are suggestions for tweaking for windows 7 32bit in the support section at Goblinworks. The Mac client was not running well last time I checked. At one point I tried loading it on an old laptop Windows XP with integrated chipset and I had a fps of 3-4. I don't recommend that.

For most people the patcher downloads in minutes, but a few people experience what appears to be the patcher failing to download, or hang. In most cases it will complete if left. It may take a long time.

Nice. Thanks for the details Daeglin.

Performers and portrayers
Each another's audience
Upon the gilded stage

Woo hoo! One of my favorite bands!!!

The Goblinworks blogs can be found here.

I would wait for something far more polished and not sign up and PAY to be alpha testers in this mess. Zero direction on character development, bizarre terminology (evidently license related) and starting a fantasy game with a club and no idea what to do - not even being able to hit the combat dummy - does not a good first impression make.

I recommend you read the New Player Guide before you start play!

I recommend you read the New Player Guide before you start play!

You have then already failed if I have to read a guide to even start the game. There should be in game help, pop ups or other directions to point a new player in the right direction.

Furthermore, having to click on each NPC to find out its name was also not fun. If there was a command to display a name banner over their head I was unable to find it as I did hunt around for a list of commands.

I've been waiting for this chance since PFO was announced. I don't have room in the budget for a MMO sub right now but I can absolutely sign up of a free trial if it helps with the alpha testing. Will characters carry over into beta and beyond?

SM

@StarMartyr365: Yes, characters, along with everything else at this point, are persistent.

@Agelaus: The new player experience has been improved now as part of two patches in a row. This is early enrollment and everything is improving, including in game help and pop ups, in the form of tooltips.

@StarMartyr: the free 15 day trial is there. If you want to help the devs, give them some proper feedback on the new player experience from an actual new player perspective.

(But it's not alpha anymore, although the game is still very much in development)

@the various sceptics: You're right, it needs polish in order to be 'finished'. But I guess for some of us, being there to see the game and community develop (with an incredible level of disclosure from the devs) is just more exciting than picking up a fully polished game.

When trying the game, be aware it is not a polished triple A title. It has a steep learning curve, it uses a unique system of matching upgradable feats and gear, and the learning resources in game are limited (though leaps and bounds beyond what were there at the start). You begin with essentially nothing, and there are only a few quests to outfit you with basic equipment starting out. To me, it heartened back to my introduction to TTRPGs when finding a lantern and a couple of copper was like a dragon hoard. This is not a game you can learn on your own without out of game research. It is easily learned if you group up with others in a company or settlement. There is an entire settlement dedicated to teaching the basics called Pathfinder University. Asking in general for assistance will always get you help from somewhere. It is hard, it is fun, and what you do is limited only by your imagination. But it is social and trying to play it like "traditional" MMOs or single-player RPGs will only lead to frustration. Welcome to the River Kingdoms!

Ryan Dancey wrote:

I recommend you read the New Player Guide before you start play!

You have then already failed if I have to read a guide to even start the game. There should be in game help, pop ups or other directions to point a new player in the right direction.

Furthermore, having to click on each NPC to find out its name was also not fun. If there was a command to display a name banner over their head I was unable to find it as I did hunt around for a list of commands.

And yet, those things are the essence of the tabletop experience. Without a patient group around you, willing to talk you through the complex rule system, you couldn't get anywhere without reading a large book.

This is a pretty crappy game ..sry..graphics stink and the play is boring.

Agelaus wrote:

Ryan Dancey wrote:

I recommend you read the New Player Guide before you start play!

You have then already failed if I have to read a guide to even start the game. There should be in game help, pop ups or other directions to point a new player in the right direction.

Furthermore, having to click on each NPC to find out its name was also not fun. If there was a command to display a name banner over their head I was unable to find it as I did hunt around for a list of commands.

And yet, those things are the essence of the tabletop experience. Without a patient group around you, willing to talk you through the complex rule system, you couldn't get anywhere without reading a large book.

That is actually not a good comparison. A DM has infinitely more flexibility than a game system, and can alter the outcome of any action positively or negatively.

Why would you charge people to play this game? It's horrible. It was easier to get started in EVE online than it is for this game.

couldn't even get past the buggy download. Left it overnight, no joy. Now it tells me the patcher has stopped responding every time I start it up.

You guys need to resolve some stuff before throwing out free trials of this game. A free trial is going to give a large number of players a chance to look at your product and make a decision. I couldn't get in, but mate got through it. Went over and checked it out with him. Deleted it about 30 minutes later.

We both agreed that Asheron's call was better than this back in the late 90's. Sorry guys, but I think this is a big miss step.

And yet, those things are the essence of the tabletop experience. Without a patient group around you, willing to talk you through the complex rule system, you couldn't get anywhere without reading a large book.

I'm not sure about the USA, but in France, we have such things as table of contents, index and glossarys, to help us using our books.

Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:

And yet, those things are the essence of the tabletop experience. Without a patient group around you, willing to talk you through the complex rule system, you couldn't get anywhere without reading a large book.

I'm not sure about the USA, but in France, we have such things as table of contents, index and glossarys, to help us using our books.

In English, we call that a Red Herring*. PFO doesn't require a large a book. Tabletop does. PFO requires about 5 to 10 pages before you can play competently. Nobody uses an index for something that small. Anybody who spends 10 minutes with the PFO starter guide is perfectly able to play the game. Nuances come with time and discovery. Anybody who's not willing to spend 10 minutes reading the starter guide had better have an experienced helper at hand because it is a complex game that is based on an even more complex game.

*An attempt to score points by making a statement that seems smart but has nothing to do with the subject.

This is an MMO, not a tabletop experience. If you want to continue to say "well it's that way in the books" don't be surprised when they day comes when GW says "Well, nice run but we've been bleeding money too long and will be selling this game/down-sizing our team/shutting this thing down."

There are not 3333 and one third players who care if this game is authentic to the P&P. MMO players care how good your MMO is.

This is an MMO, not a tabletop experience. If you want to continue to say "well it's that way in the books" don't be surprised when they day comes when GW says "Well, nice run but we've been bleeding money too long and will be selling this game/down-sizing our team/shutting this thing down."

There are not 3333 and one third players who care if this game is authentic to the P&P. MMO players care how good your MMO is.

Except I've never said it's taht way in the books. I'm saying it's based on the rules that require a lot of books, and is, therefore, a more complex game than most MMOs. It is far less complex than the tabletop rules. People who aren't looking for a complex game are going to have a difficult time, and may not be engaged. They're certainly going to be frustrated if they jump in without taking the time to find out how it works.

That complex game is one of the points of it being created. If success requires that it be simplified, then there's not much point, because people can go play one of the myriad of other non-complex games that already exist.

And I think you know all that. It feels like the only reason we're arguing about this is because I'm the one you feel like arguing with today.

Agelaus wrote:

Ryan Dancey wrote:

I recommend you read the New Player Guide before you start play!

You have then already failed if I have to read a guide to even start the game. There should be in game help, pop ups or other directions to point a new player in the right direction.

Furthermore, having to click on each NPC to find out its name was also not fun. If there was a command to display a name banner over their head I was unable to find it as I did hunt around for a list of commands.

And yet, those things are the essence of the tabletop experience. Without a patient group around you, willing to talk you through the complex rule system, you couldn't get anywhere without reading a large book.

I actually agree complexity is the core of a sandbox and most sandboxes don't have very good tutorials early on. Good player guides and wikis are essential to any good sandbox.

However you did justify your argument with "And yet those things are the essence of the tabletop experience" and that's what I'm attacking because it's a seriously bad argument.

"Life is Feudal doesn't even have a tutorial at this point and look at how many players they have on their servers" is a lot more valid argument when you are talking about a sandbox MMO. Of course you have to know the sandbox MMO genre to make arguments like that. ;)

Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:

Agelaus wrote:

Ryan Dancey wrote:

I recommend you read the New Player Guide before you start play!

You have then already failed if I have to read a guide to even start the game. There should be in game help, pop ups or other directions to point a new player in the right direction.

Furthermore, having to click on each NPC to find out its name was also not fun. If there was a command to display a name banner over their head I was unable to find it as I did hunt around for a list of commands.

And yet, those things are the essence of the tabletop experience. Without a patient group around you, willing to talk you through the complex rule system, you couldn't get anywhere without reading a large book.

I actually agree complexity is the core of a sandbox and most sandboxes don't have very good tutorials early on. Good player guides and wikis are essential to any good sandbox.

However you did justify your argument with "And yet those things are the essence of the tabletop experience" and that's what I'm attacking because it's a seriously bad argument.

"Life is Feudal doesn't even have a tutorial at this point and look at how many players they have on their servers" is a lot more valid argument when you are talking about a sandbox MMO. Of course you have to know the sandbox MMO genre to make arguments like that. ;)

I did that here, and only here, because this is a response to a blog that is read by almost no-one who doesn't play Pathfinder Tabletop already. Sorry if that was confusing.

A comparison to another work-in-progress MMO like Life is Feudal would be pretty valid.

It's made a little more complicated by the fact that, if I recall correctly, Life is Feudal is set up on several small servers, whereas PFO is set up on one large global server. PFO can appear to be pretty crowded in certain parts of the map, but look deserted in other areas.

Then perhaps you need to consider who you are talking to instead of where you are talking.

You have then already failed if I have to read a guide to even start the game. There should be in game help, pop ups or other directions to point a new player in the right direction.

This person is clearly a fan of the P&P and knows how it works but it appears there expectation of what a video game should be like has been formulated by... video games!

In this case probably single player and theme-park video games which are pretty self explanatory and only need a brief tutorial to get you going. Pretty easy when you've already played 100 other games almost just like them.

Sandboxes are catered to players who like depth and detail. That means a steeper learning curve. They also have much fewer games like them and may be the first game of this type the player has tried, which also makes the learning curve a bit steeper.

You're argument to them essentially boils down to. "You like the P&P and this is like the P&P SO YOU SHOULD LIKE IT MORE." An approach more along the lines of "This is probably different than most games you've tried and a steeper learning is the price we pay for a more detailed and interesting game, it's industry standard for comparable games at this stage of development" would have a higher chance of working.

Well... once this game is detailed and interesting anyway. lol

It will be interesting to see how SwordCoast Legends fares in this department.

In English, we call that a Red Herring*. PFO doesn't require a large a book. Tabletop does.

No point in comparing it with tabletop, then.

It will be interesting to see how SwordCoast Legends fares in this department.

From the videos I've seen, it looks like the step end of that learning curve might be on the GM side, rather than the player side.

It will be interesting to see how SwordCoast Legends fares in this department.

I thought Sword Coast Legends was a game like Pillars of Eternity, not an MMO.

If this was a single player game like those, more people would probably be interested in it.

Calidor Cruciatus wrote:

It will be interesting to see how SwordCoast Legends fares in this department.

I thought Sword Coast Legends was a game like Pillars of Eternity, not an MMO.

If this was a single player game like those, more people would probably be interested in it.

Actually, Sword Coast Legends is marketed more so as a multi player game (DM + 4 players), but it does have single player mode as well.

Calidor Cruciatus wrote:

It will be interesting to see how SwordCoast Legends fares in this department.

From the videos I've seen, it looks like the step end of that learning curve might be on the GM side, rather than the player side.

Step = steep. (13 minutes too late to fix it.)

I don't want to say that people who can't be bothered to read a guide won't ever learn how to play PFO, but people who aren't willing to spend the effort to learn need patient friends and/or lots if patience themselves.

Reading the new player guide is easy mode learning, and only hardcore gamers should take the maximum difficulty setting of figuring it out themself.

My mate and I read the guide. It wasn't that hard to have it open on my ipad while he ran through the game.

It's a bit sad it was written by outside source rather than the company itself, but then that is what this crowdforging is. I suspect that GW will eventually get all of that into the game with a walk through tutorial for very new gamers. Eve had something like that and it helped.

However, knowing how to start didn't make the game any more enjoyable. As a c0nsumer of computer games, MMO's in particular, there are some things I expect a game to provide for me before I am willing to pay for it.

Stability, entertainment, interaction with others (mostly positive for me, I'm not into antagonistic behaviour), interesting things to explore.

If you want me to get into this whole sandbox idea and go explore and build cities etc, then the place needs to be interesting so I want to keep exploring. I have no qualms about not having quests to follow etc, but grinding is boring, and that's what this felt like.

Ive done beta trials in games that are this unstable and this underdeveloped. They didn't charge me for it though. Ive done free to play games that were similar to this game. They didn't charge me for it.

When I told my group of mates that this game had the 15 day trial then sat down and explained the rest of the business model to them, nearly all of them laughed out loud. "They want me to pay them so I can do the work for them!" was a quote from one of them.

I think he was right.

I am not paying for access to the game, I am paying for my monthly box of XP. I know I can not access the game if I do not pay but there's a difference there.

The game is slowly getting better and I hope they can manage to make it so much fun that more people will want to play it. When that happens, they will also be willing to pay for their XP, just like hundreds of thousands of people are willing to pay for EvE and for World of Warcraft.

For me the game is fun enough already, so I am happy to start accumulating XP so soon already.

2 things though:

I totally understand that for many the game is not fun enough so they do not want to pay for their XP yet;
I also understand that there is a serious risk that the game will fold before it ever gets fun for the larger crowd; development certainly is slow and I feel the GW team is clearly a rookie in many things, (well, they are). So it's a definate risk to start liking this game so much that you want to pay the sub: it may fold because we are not talking Cryptic Studios here or Blizzard or Bethesda, who can crank out a MMO/game and not even blink. It's a start up.

I am weighing those factors and so far I am still willing to keep subbing.

Good points Tynacle.

For me personally, I'll keep checking here and the GW forums now I have an account. When the game gets to a stage I think its worth playing, then I'll happily try to get in and give it another go. Hopefully its not too far into the future.

Enjoy playing mate.

I have two questions before trying this out:

1. Does this game allow (or encourage) multiple characters per player?

2. Will it be expected that one venture out of the game world to read up on 'strats' if one is not to be considered lame?

One game I've played has, for me, largely been ruined by the ongoing development decision to satisfy the alt-loving toonswitchers by implementing 'updates' over the years to make things ever easier for those who want to run their many characters through the same content ever more quickly to the mythical 'end game'.

The other fun-killing factor has been the ever-present tendency to encourage spoilers (fostered in the main, sadly, by those in 'play'). What point embarking upon a quest if one merely need seek a nother-worldly oracle to reveal the path and avoid its twists and turns? Far, far better not to waste one's time, and instead go and read a good book.

Thank you for listening.

I have two questions before trying this out:

1. Does this game allow (or encourage) multiple characters per player?

2. Will it be expected that one venture out of the game world to read up on 'strats' if one is not to be considered lame?

One game I've played has, for me, largely been ruined by the ongoing development decision to satisfy the alt-loving toonswitchers by implementing 'updates' over the years to make things ever easier for those who want to run their many characters through the same content ever more quickly to the mythical 'end game'.

The other fun-killing factor has been the ever-present tendency to encourage spoilers (fostered in the main, sadly, by those in 'play'). What point embarking upon a quest if one merely need seek a nother-worldly oracle to reveal the path and avoid its twists and turns? Far, far better not to waste one's time, and instead go and read a good book.

Thank you for listening.

It isn't a theme park, so no quests per se, and probably no big complex strategies, so you are ok about that.

You can have multiple characters, if you want to be more useful quickly, but it's not necessary, your main character can learn to do everything with enough time. But if you want a second character, you will have to play a second subscription, if you want him to gain XP (XP is gained over IRL subscription time, not in game actions).

It isn't a theme park, so no quests per se, and probably no big complex strategies, so you are ok about that.

You can have multiple characters, if you want to be more useful quickly, but it's not necessary, your main character can learn to do everything with enough time. But if you want a second character, you will have to play a second subscription, if you want him to gain XP (XP is gained over IRL subscription time, not in game actions).

Many thanks for the response.

'Being more useful' is one of the arguments used, in this other place to which I refer, for having multiple characters. IMO, not a good sign. I believe that good teamwork is a function of capability and familiarity, and one cannot become familiar with the capabilities of a character who's... simply not there.

I find the idea of gaining 'XP' via IRL subs time a rather odd one, too, though it would have the advantage of side-stepping the perceived need to 'grind levels'. But if 'experience' is not gained by in-game activity -- and there are no quests (?) to pursue -- I'm left wondering where, then, is the sense of achievement?

Many thanks for the response.

'Being more useful' is one of the arguments used, in this other place to which I refer, for having multiple characters. IMO, not a good sign. I believe that good teamwork is a function of capability and familiarity, and one cannot become familiar with the capabilities of a character who's... simply not there.

I find the idea of gaining 'XP' via IRL subs time a rather odd one, too, though it would have the advantage of side-stepping the perceived need to 'grind levels'. But if 'experience' is not gained by in-game activity -- and there are no quests (?) to pursue -- I'm left wondering where, then, is the sense of achievement?

Well I guess someone liking PFO will answer !

@Rafees,

After reading what you are looking for, and it is a great deal, you may want to wait a long while before trying this game. I'd wait at least until they put dungeons in.

@Rafees,

After reading what you are looking for, and it is a great deal, you may want to wait a long while before trying this game. I'd wait at least until they put dungeons in.

Thanks for the advice.

... where, then, is the sense of achievement?

Achievements!

Your advancement in PFO is gated by a number of different things:

1. XP & Coin - you have to have both of these available to train a new Feat, or a new Rank of a Feat you've already started training. (Some early Ranks don't have a Coin cost.)

2. Achievements - many Feat Ranks have specific Achievement Requirements you must meet before you'll be able to train them. For example, in general you can't train an Attack to Rank 4 (where it uses the Masterwork Keyword) until you have the appropriate Expert Achievement at Rank 7, such as Arcane Expert or Longbow Expert. You gain Ranks in an Expert Achievement by having the appropriate weapon readied when you get credit for killing an NPC.

3. Ability Scores - many Feat Ranks have specific Ability Score Requirements you must meet before you'll be able to train them. You increase your Ability Scores buy training Feats that are related to that Ability Score. For example, training a Mage Wand Attack will give a slight bonus to your Intelligence, while training a Cleric Focus Attack will give a slight bonus to your Wisdom.

4. Feats - some Feat Ranks require that you have already trained another specific Feat Rank. For example, those Rank 4 Wizard Attacks usually require Arcane Weapon Proficiency 2 and Arcane Attack Bonus 4.

5. Category Points - some Feat Ranks require that you have already earned a number of Category Points. For example, Arcane Weapon Proficiency 2 requires that you have earned 25 Arcane Category Points. You gain Category Points by earning Achievements in that Category.

Aside from that, you'll generally get the best sense of accomplishment by being part of an active, thriving Settlement or Company. Those communities will have needs, and seeing those needs met is a powerful motivator.

But if you want a second character, you will have to play a second subscription, if you want him to gain XP (XP is gained over IRL subscription time, not in game actions).

That is not quite correct. If you want multiple characters to have the maximum amount of XP, you need multiple subscriptions, but you can move the spigot on your XP at any time. So you can play character one for a week, after which time he'd have 7X2400=16,800XP, then you can swap the XP over to the other character for a week, while still playing the first if you want, so that a week later the other character would also have the same XP. At that point you can leave it, move it to the third character, or move it back to the first.

That is not quite correct. If you want multiple characters to have the maximum amount of XP, you need multiple subscriptions, but you can move the spigot on your XP at any time. So you can play character one for a week, after which time he'd have 7X2400=16,800XP, then you can swap the XP over to the other character for a week, while still playing the first if you want, so that a week later the other character would also have the same XP. At that point you can leave it, move it to the third character, or move it back to the first.

Yes obviously, but that would be a very useless thing to do outside specific situations. I don't think that this precision is very useful in the context of his questions.

Actually, a lot of us are finding it useful to have a specific character in two different parts of the map, rather than running back and forth. It only took a couple of months XP to make a decent PvE/gatherer.

People stuck in the old mindset of getting off on leveling and maxing out characters wills struggle with PFO initially.

- the game has no equivalent of XP caps so training one role will never prevent you maxing another, it will just take a bit longer. Min/maxing provides a temporary edge at best.
- the true equivalent of "XP" in other games is actually the in-game achievements. The thing called "XP" is just a resource you spend when you get enough achievements to "level" a skill. It probably should have been called training points not XP.
- the game is not a "churn" game for people that want to keep trying the newest greatest shiniest thing for 6 months before moving on, it takes years to max a role
- like EVE, numbers are the biggest force multiplier so success in the game comes from the ability to make friends, recruit and retain members not whether you have "awesome" high level individual characters

However once you get out of the "old school mindset" of wanting to be entertained by pretty graphics and the ability to be instantly awesome and level up constantly and solo everything and settle down and join a settlement and start working with people the game becomes very very addictive.

Rafees wrote:

... where, then, is the sense of achievement?

Achievements!

Your advancement in PFO is gated by a number of different things:

1. XP & Coin - you have to have both of these available to train a new Feat, or a new Rank of a Feat you've already started training. (Some early Ranks don't have a Coin cost.)

2. Achievements - many Feat Ranks have specific Achievement Requirements you must meet before you'll be able to train them. For example, in general you can't train an Attack to Rank 4 (where it uses the Masterwork Keyword) until you have the appropriate Expert Achievement at Rank 7, such as Arcane Expert or Longbow Expert. You gain Ranks in an Expert Achievement by having the appropriate weapon readied when you get credit for killing an NPC.

3. Ability Scores - many Feat Ranks have specific Ability Score Requirements you must meet before you'll be able to train them. You increase your Ability Scores buy training Feats that are related to that Ability Score. For example, training a Mage Wand Attack will give a slight bonus to your Intelligence, while training a Cleric Focus Attack will give a slight bonus to your Wisdom.

4. Feats - some Feat Ranks require that you have already trained another specific Feat Rank. For example, those Rank 4 Wizard Attacks usually require Arcane Weapon Proficiency 2 and Arcane Attack Bonus 4.

5. Category Points - some Feat Ranks require that you have already earned a number of Category Points. For example, Arcane Weapon Proficiency 2 requires that you have earned 25 Arcane Category Points. You gain Category Points by earning Achievements in that Category.

Aside from that, you'll generally get the best sense of accomplishment by being part of an active, thriving Settlement or Company. Those communities will have needs, and seeing those needs met is a powerful motivator.

I don't believe grinding achievements are the type of achievements Rafees was asking for.

When he asked "where is the sense of achievement" he was asking for the achievement of accomplishing a true challenge or achieving a long held goal.

Compare, "I have killed 5000 goblins and unlocked level 9 achievement" knowing how easy it is to kill goblins versus "Phaeros has built a library, which has been one of our long standing goals."

I don't believe grinding achievements are the type of achievements Rafees was asking for.

When he asked "where is the sense of achievement" he was asking for the achievement of accomplishing a true challenge or achieving a long held goal.

Reading what he actually wrote, in context, I think he was asking about the little things that make you feel like your character is advancing - things like completing quests or gaining XP in other games.

Bluddwolf wrote:

I don't believe grinding achievements are the type of achievements Rafees was asking for.

When he asked "where is the sense of achievement" he was asking for the achievement of accomplishing a true challenge or achieving a long held goal.

Reading what he actually wrote, in context, I think he was asking about the little things that make you feel like your character is advancing - things like completing quests or gaining XP in other games.

When WoW was in BETA, you had an XP malus for playing too long. Players didn't like it. They changed it into a bonus for resting, even though it was the exact same thing, it was well received.

Achievements can't be perceived as an actual achievement for a simple reason : They are not a way to obtain more power, they are a barrier preventing you from obtaining power you could already have.

And if you believe Ryan's propaganda about achievements being very easily attainable just by playing casually, then it's even worse, since most of the time, you will get achievements which will give you nothing because you don't have enough xp to use it, or just no interest in it.

Anyway, achievements are bad design which will go away, you'll see.