The Skinsaw Man returns?!
17 years of thinking your PCs were safe... Little did you know!
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The Skinsaw Man returns?!
17 years of thinking your PCs were safe... Little did you know!
Considering this is set in Ravounel, this will most probably be a different one. Technically, all followers of Father Skinsaw (one of teh 4 aspects of Norgorber) are called Skinsaw Men. :P So... yeah, could be anyone.
Arshea and Norgorber is an interesting pair of deities to see in the same story.
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That title, though.
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That title, though.
Someone was inspired by Songbird, Scion, Saboteur. That is wonderful!
Arshea is a Demigod?
*Huh* I thought they were a full blown divinity.
Norgorber again?
Norgorber again?Vyre is still right next to Ravounel.
I know, but to be honest, I feel quite norgorbered out.
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Should Author:Misty Belmont be Minty Belmont?
I know, but to be honest, I feel quite norgorbered out.Norgorber again?Vyre is still right next to Ravounel.
Have we had Norgorber in anything other than Agents of Edgewatch? I feel like I've barely seen the guy in 2e.
To be fair, Norgorber worshiping Skinsaw Men make it easy to add a supernatural element to an "urban (serial) killer" plot hook. Without needing to bring in Red Mantis assassins as hirelings (distractions).
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Watch we’re getting Norgorbered cause he’s the one that dies.
Even his herald has been a PC victim twice by now (War for the Crown and Agents of Edgewatch).
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I love the concept of the AP. Not that thrilled to have killer clowns with giant razors in it, which seems inevitable if the Skinsaw cult is involved. ^^
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I thought this adventure takes place in Magnimar because of the Skinsaw Man... turns out the Skinsaw Cult is in Ravounel too? Sigh. I really wish we would revisit Magnimar as soon as possible.
Is that the actual cover??
Creative Director
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I thought this adventure takes place in Magnimar because of the Skinsaw Man... turns out the Skinsaw Cult is in Ravounel too? Sigh. I really wish we would revisit Magnimar as soon as possible.
The cult of Norgorber is worldwide, including those who worship Father Skinsaw. And as established in Hell's Rebels, his worship is particularly strong in the city of Vyre, which is, as it turns out, in Ravounel.
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the city of Vyre, which is, as it turns out, in Ravounel.
Is it? In various publications -- e.g., Mona et al., Lost Omens: World Guide, at *105 (2019); Lundeen et al., Pathfinder Adventure Path #147: Tomorrow Must Burn, at *59-60 (2019) -- Vyre is said to be independent (read: sovereign, possessed of inter alia its own foreign policy and tariff policy) as opposed to merely autonomous (read: self-governing). Is this in error, or overstated?
As for War of Immortals implications, Arshea getting an article in this AP volume does not bode well for Shelyn.
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the city of Vyre, which is, as it turns out, in Ravounel.Is it? In various publications -- e.g., Mona et al., Lost Omens: World Guide, at *105 (2019); Lundeen et al., Pathfinder Adventure Path #147: Tomorrow Must Burn, at *59-60 (2019) -- Vyre is said to be independent (read: sovereign, possessed of inter alia its own foreign policy and tariff policy) as opposed to merely autonomous (read: self-governing). Is this in error, or overstated?
As for War of Immortals implications, Arshea getting an article in this AP volume does not bode well for Shelyn.
It's within Ravounel's boundaries, yes, but it's still essentially a free city, so it's not GOVERNED by Ravounel. It's still a part of the region, though.
It's the same sort of off-the-cuff not-meant-to-be-examined-under-a-microscope messageboard-posted phrasing I'd use to say Magnimar, Riddleport, and Korvosa are in Varisia, even though they're separately governed settlements.
In 1st edition, we'd talk about Vyre in a big book about Chelaix. We wouldn't do that in a big book about Cheliax in 2nd edition, but would instead talk about it in a big book about Ravounel.
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Vyre isn't part of Cheliax and also helped the rebellion that freed Ravnounel; ergo, it is more tied into that region.
Not a shock.
Though can we get a Saga Lands book before an Old Cheliax book please/j
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Vyre isn't part of Cheliax and also helped the rebellion that freed Ravnounel; ergo, it is more tied into that region.
Not a shock.
Though can we get a Saga Lands book before an Old Cheliax book please/j
Make sure to voice your desires for specific Lost Omens books over on Lost Omens threads too!
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Make sure to voice your desires for specific Lost Omens books over on Lost Omens threads too!Vyre isn't part of Cheliax and also helped the rebellion that freed Ravnounel; ergo, it is more tied into that region.
Not a shock.
Though can we get a Saga Lands book before an Old Cheliax book please/j
I have often, I’m the guy constantly yelling about Droon.
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It's within Ravounel's boundaries, yes, but it's still essentially a free city, so it's not GOVERNED by Ravounel. It's still a part of the region, though.
It's the same sort of off-the-cuff not-meant-to-be-examined-under-a-microscope messageboard-posted phrasing I'd use to say Magnimar, Riddleport, and Korvosa are in Varisia, even though they're separately governed settlements.
Is the intended meaning that Ravounel is not a state the way, say, Nirmathas and Vidrian and Kyonin are states, but is a geographic expression in the way, say, Varisia or the Mwangi Expanse or the Sarkoris Scar are?
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Is the intended meaning that Ravounel is not a state the way, say, Nirmathas and Vidrian and Kyonin are states, but is a geographic expression in the way, say, Varisia or the Mwangi Expanse or the Sarkoris Scar are?It's within Ravounel's boundaries, yes, but it's still essentially a free city, so it's not GOVERNED by Ravounel. It's still a part of the region, though.
It's the same sort of off-the-cuff not-meant-to-be-examined-under-a-microscope messageboard-posted phrasing I'd use to say Magnimar, Riddleport, and Korvosa are in Varisia, even though they're separately governed settlements.
Ravounel is like Nirmathas, Vidrian, and Kyonin. It's its own nation. We generally don't use the word "state" for these areas, since that word implies belonging to a larger nation, and Ravounel is not part of a larger nation. Nor are Vidrian, Kyonin, or Nirmathas.
Technically, Vyre and its island would have political boundaries separate from Ravounel, in the same way they did in the pre-secesssion days when Cheliax ruled, but Ravounel is less interested in governing/ruling Vyre than Cheliax was and more interested in being allies and good neighbors than Chelaix was. Those boundaries are wholly within Ravounel though.
Including Vyre under the greater umbrella of all that is Ravounel is a convenience, but not intended to indicate one is fully in-charge of the other. Vyre is a free city inside of the nation of Cheliax.
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Ravounel is like Nirmathas, Vidrian, and Kyonin. It's its own nation. We generally don't use the word "state" for these areas, since that word implies belonging to a larger nation, and Ravounel is not part of a larger nation. Nor are Vidrian, Kyonin, or Nirmathas.
Technically, Vyre and its island would have political boundaries separate from Ravounel, in the same way they did in the pre-secesssion days when Cheliax ruled, but Ravounel is less interested in governing/ruling Vyre than Cheliax was and more interested in being allies and good neighbors than Chelaix was. Those boundaries are wholly within Ravounel though.
Including Vyre under the greater umbrella of all that is Ravounel is a convenience, but not intended to indicate one is fully in-charge of the other. Vyre is a free city inside of the nation of Cheliax.
Come again?
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Is the intended meaning that Ravounel is not a state the way, say, Nirmathas and Vidrian and Kyonin are states, but is a geographic expression in the way, say, Varisia or the Mwangi Expanse or the Sarkoris Scar are?It's within Ravounel's boundaries, yes, but it's still essentially a free city, so it's not GOVERNED by Ravounel. It's still a part of the region, though.
It's the same sort of off-the-cuff not-meant-to-be-examined-under-a-microscope messageboard-posted phrasing I'd use to say Magnimar, Riddleport, and Korvosa are in Varisia, even though they're separately governed settlements.
Why are you so keen on Ravounel not being its own sovereign nation?
It’s kinda weird.
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Zimmer I think you're getting hung up on different definitions of state. Paizo is a United States based company, and in the US the term state generally refers to one of fifty regional governing bodies that are part of a larger national governing body. Paizo doesn't like to use state to refer to a nation, as in their general audience it would imply that it was part of a larger nation and not a nation on it's own.
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Zimmer I think you're getting hung up on different definitions of state. Paizo is a United States based company, and in the US the term state generally refers to one of fifty regional governing bodies that are part of a larger national governing body. Paizo doesn't like to use state to refer to a nation, as in their general audience it would imply that it was part of a larger nation and not a nation on it's own.
I did in fact read Mr. Jacobs's post. And I came away not believing what it said. Because it he did in fact conceptualize "state" as being "self-governing federal or confederal subdivision," he could have said as much when asked "is Vyre independent [sovereign, with bespoke foreign and fiscal policies] or merely autonomous [self-governing]" within a federation or confederation. Because autonomous federal subdivision describes American states well enough.
Instead the comparison we got was to Magnimar and Korvosa, which are obviously independent and sovereign in themselves (and in pretty flagrant competition) rather than part of a confederation or federation to which sovereign powers are delegated.
And @VerBeeker, because apparently pressing the issue is productive of revelations like Vyre still being a part of Cheliax, which deprives Ravounel of "its" biggest city as well as of control of the shipping lanes out of Kintargo.
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Zimmer I think you're getting hung up on different definitions of state. Paizo is a United States based company, and in the US the term state generally refers to one of fifty regional governing bodies that are part of a larger national governing body. Paizo doesn't like to use state to refer to a nation, as in their general audience it would imply that it was part of a larger nation and not a nation on it's own.I did in fact read Mr. Jacobs's post. And I came away not believing what it said. Because it he did in fact conceptualize "state" as being "self-governing federal or confederal subdivision," he could have said as much when asked "is Vyre independent [sovereign, with bespoke foreign and fiscal policies] or merely autonomous [self-governing]" within a federation or confederation. Because autonomous federal subdivision describes American states well enough.
Instead the comparison we got was to Magnimar and Korvosa, which are obviously independent and sovereign in themselves (and in pretty flagrant competition) rather than part of a confederation or federation to which sovereign powers are delegated.
And @VerBeeker, because apparently pressing the issue is productive of revelations like Vyre still being a part of Cheliax, which deprives Ravounel of "its" biggest city as well as of control of the shipping lanes out of Kintargo.
I mean, Vyre is in name only a part of Cheliax. Cheliax itself lets Vyre get away with basically being its own entity because it's a pleasure city for nobility, training ground for hellknights, etc. Vyre is not going to harm Ravounel on behalf of Cheliax and Cheliax wouldn't risk losing Vyre just to punish Ravounel, the losses would outweigh their gains. Admittedly, I'm surprised that JJ said Vyre is part of Cheliax, considering how Ravounel's borders work, but honestly it's not like Vyre changes any given its essentially free city status.
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I assumed Cheliax was a typo and he meant to type Ravounel.
After all sometimes people say one thing and mean a mother.
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Zimmer I think you're getting hung up on different definitions of state. Paizo is a United States based company, and in the US the term state generally refers to one of fifty regional governing bodies that are part of a larger national governing body. Paizo doesn't like to use state to refer to a nation, as in their general audience it would imply that it was part of a larger nation and not a nation on it's own.I did in fact read Mr. Jacobs's post. And I came away not believing what it said. Because it he did in fact conceptualize "state" as being "self-governing federal or confederal subdivision," he could have said as much when asked "is Vyre independent [sovereign, with bespoke foreign and fiscal policies] or merely autonomous [self-governing]" within a federation or confederation. Because autonomous federal subdivision describes American states well enough.
Instead the comparison we got was to Magnimar and Korvosa, which are obviously independent and sovereign in themselves (and in pretty flagrant competition) rather than part of a confederation or federation to which sovereign powers are delegated.
And @VerBeeker, because apparently pressing the issue is productive of revelations like Vyre still being a part of Cheliax, which deprives Ravounel of "its" biggest city as well as of control of the shipping lanes out of Kintargo.
Why would it…. why would Kintargo not have control of its shipping lanes, it’s a port city all its own.
All I ever see out of you dude is comments trying to delegitimize a nation that broke out of a corrupt fascist regime, and I’m not gonna lie it is more than a little offputting.
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Why would it…. why would Kintargo not have control of its shipping lanes, it’s a port city all its own.
All I ever see out of you dude is comments trying to delegitimize a nation that broke out of a corrupt fascist regime, and I’m not gonna lie it is more than a little offputting.
Vyre Island commands the access from the Yolubilis River estuary to Nisroch Bay. Fleets based in Vyre would have command of the sea and would find blockading Kintargo and raiding its commerce a trivial matter. Dance of the Damned and The Kintargo Contract explicitly highlight this possibility, and the reciprocal possibility of Ravounel denying sea access to hostile fleets through control of Vyre Island, as reasons it is critical to bring Vyre onside. That Cheliax (by virtue of its sovereignty over Vyre) and/or third parties (by virtue of Vyre's independence from Ravounel) can freely base fleets in Vyre should be the cause of many sleepless nights in Kintargo.
And I would have quite liked to see Ravounel set up to be a bastion of freedom and democracy if it couldn't be a redoubt from which to revolutionize Cheliax. But every decision made with respect to it has undermined its freedom (by undermining the power of the central government to defend its territory) and strangled its democracy in the cradle (by tolerating imperial loyalists and counterrevolutionaries not only in their possession of large estates but also in the seats of government; by making Silver Council seats a matter of patronage rather than election; by failing to hold elections at all never mind frequently; by failing to enact land reform when enacting emancipation; &c.). It is not a concession to fascism to point out manifest failures by its enemies.
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I can see this veering into territory not allowed on the forums (IRL politics) so lets be cautious of that please.
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Come again?Ravounel is like Nirmathas, Vidrian, and Kyonin. It's its own nation. We generally don't use the word "state" for these areas, since that word implies belonging to a larger nation, and Ravounel is not part of a larger nation. Nor are Vidrian, Kyonin, or Nirmathas.
Technically, Vyre and its island would have political boundaries separate from Ravounel, in the same way they did in the pre-secesssion days when Cheliax ruled, but Ravounel is less interested in governing/ruling Vyre than Cheliax was and more interested in being allies and good neighbors than Chelaix was. Those boundaries are wholly within Ravounel though.
Including Vyre under the greater umbrella of all that is Ravounel is a convenience, but not intended to indicate one is fully in-charge of the other. Vyre is a free city inside of the nation of Cheliax.
Typo. I meant to say "Vyre is a free city inside the nation of Ravounel."
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Typo. I meant to say "Vyre is a free city inside the nation of Ravounel."Come again?Ravounel is like Nirmathas, Vidrian, and Kyonin. It's its own nation. We generally don't use the word "state" for these areas, since that word implies belonging to a larger nation, and Ravounel is not part of a larger nation. Nor are Vidrian, Kyonin, or Nirmathas.
Technically, Vyre and its island would have political boundaries separate from Ravounel, in the same way they did in the pre-secesssion days when Cheliax ruled, but Ravounel is less interested in governing/ruling Vyre than Cheliax was and more interested in being allies and good neighbors than Chelaix was. Those boundaries are wholly within Ravounel though.
Including Vyre under the greater umbrella of all that is Ravounel is a convenience, but not intended to indicate one is fully in-charge of the other. Vyre is a free city inside of the nation of Cheliax.
Gotcha. Sorry for running with the error.
To be honest, Vyre is such a despicable place, I could full understand the government of Ravounel not really wanting to have it.
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To be honest, Vyre is such a despicable place, I could full understand the government of Ravounel not really wanting to have it.
Even from a perspective of disdain of Vyre's culture and fear of the threat it could pose, a confederated or federated or incorporated Vyre is still superior to an independent one or one subjected to a third power. A confederated or federated or incorporated Vyre is constrained in its acts and omissions somewhat by the demands of the state in ways an independent or foreign-dominated Vyre is not. It can't, for instance, lawfully or easily make war on the mainland or garner foreign allies with which to do so -- the threats it poses are smaller-scale and more easily fended off by deputized adventurers. Further, even if Vyre is not compelled to contribute to the [con]federal treasury, its production, trade, and tax revenues still benefit Ravounel society more by association than by arms-length transaction.