Pathfinder Adventure Path #147: Tomorrow Must Burn (Age of Ashes 3 of 6)

Interesting that the product description says "their castle" in combination with the heroes.
I don't think PCs had a fully detailed castle before.

Also interesting because there is an upcoming "Castles Flip-mat multi-pack" announced (for december i think).

"Exploration of the dragons of the world", finally, here it comes!

And also, it seems we are getting a CLASS Archtype this time.

Interesting that the product description says "their castle" in combination with the heroes.

I don't think PCs had a fully detailed castle before.

Also interesting because there is an upcoming "Castles Flip-mat multi-pack" announced (for december i think).

Mr. Jacobs actually confirmed there will be rules for PCs interested in improving and managing their now headquarter. I can't remember if they are included on this volume or in the second one.

"Exploration of the dragons of the world", finally, here it comes!

And also, it seems we are getting a CLASS Archtype this time.

Marco Massoudi wrote:

Interesting that the product description says "their castle" in combination with the heroes.

I don't think PCs had a fully detailed castle before.

Also interesting because there is an upcoming "Castles Flip-mat multi-pack" announced (for december i think).

Mr. Jacobs actually confirmed there will be rules for PCs interested in improving and managing their now headquarter. I can't remember if they are included on this volume or in the second one.

Thanks for the info, Gold Sovereign! :-)

This volume looks to be worth it alone for the articles about Ravounel & the Dragons.

From the proximity to Cheliax (and the goblins in the first adventure) are we to take it that this is going to be the halfling adventure?

I thought Fort Rannick was a castle too

I thought Fort Rannick was a castle too

Fun trivia note: I had originally wanted to have Fort Rannick serve as a PC base in the heart of Varisia for Rise of the Runelords, and at one point there was going to be a large article about it in that chapter with rules for players to build up and maintain a castle.

But those plans fell through for various reasons and instead we had a much smaller article about encounters in the area than the original intent. So the concept got put on the back burner for a year, and then 2 years, and then a decade.

Age of Ashes is the 2nd try. It's not a HUGE part of the campaign—the majority of the castle building and repair happens during downtime, using rules in the 2nd volume, and the castle itself doesn't play a big role in the overall course of the campaign.

But it WILL set the groundwork for something like this, and will allow us to build from there to, perhaps, do a proper Adventure Path in the future which is all about the PCs building, maintaining, improving, and ruling a castle from the ground up. Sort of a micro-version of Kingmaker, but instead it'd be called something like "Castlemaker" but not as goofy sounding. The tricky thing there is that it's tough writing an adventure that works for a castle whose design no author or designer or developer or editor will ever see the floor plan to...

But it WILL set the groundwork for something like this, and will allow us to build from there to, perhaps, do a proper Adventure Path in the future which is all about the PCs building, maintaining, improving, and ruling a castle from the ground up. Sort of a micro-version of Kingmaker, but instead it'd be called something like "Castlemaker" but not as goofy sounding. The tricky thing there is that it's tough writing an adventure that works for a castle whose design no author or designer or developer or editor will ever see the floor plan to...

Just chipping in to say that an AP like that sounds awesome.

Ha! Ha! New nation of Ravounel! I love it, also proves that guy who claimed they were some how still part of a Cheliax wrong. Why they believe that...I have no idea.

Well I guess if you had to have a good defensible position, a former Hellknight keep/castle is as good a choice as any.

The Raven Black wrote:

I thought Fort Rannick was a castle too

Fun trivia note: I had originally wanted to have Fort Rannick serve as a PC base in the heart of Varisia for Rise of the Runelords, and at one point there was going to be a large article about it in that chapter with rules for players to build up and maintain a castle.

But those plans fell through for various reasons and instead we had a much smaller article about encounters in the area than the original intent. So the concept got put on the back burner for a year, and then 2 years, and then a decade.

Age of Ashes is the 2nd try. It's not a HUGE part of the campaign—the majority of the castle building and repair happens during downtime, using rules in the 2nd volume, and the castle itself doesn't play a big role in the overall course of the campaign.

But it WILL set the groundwork for something like this, and will allow us to build from there to, perhaps, do a proper Adventure Path in the future which is all about the PCs building, maintaining, improving, and ruling a castle from the ground up. Sort of a micro-version of Kingmaker, but instead it'd be called something like "Castlemaker" but not as goofy sounding. The tricky thing there is that it's tough writing an adventure that works for a castle whose design no author or designer or developer or editor will ever see the floor plan to...

The last comment got me confused.

1. Will there be a floor plan(s) for the Hellknight Hill castle in any of the volumes?

2. Was the upcoming "Flip-mat: Castles multipack" designed with "Age of Ashes" in mind?

The last comment got me confused.

1. Will there be a floor plan(s) for the Hellknight Hill castle in any of the volumes?

2. Was the upcoming "Flip-mat: Castles multipack" designed with "Age of Ashes" in mind?

My last comment about a "Castlemaker" adventure path was toward a purely theoretical AP that I've not put much more thought into other than that comment; it has nothing to do, really, with Age of Ashes which is focused on the adventure itself and not the castle building/management. That element is background; and groups who get into it will be able to develop it as they wish, but it's not a support pillar of the plot.

1: Yes.

2: No. The format of a flip mat is too constraining and tiny for the castle in Age of Ashes. The ground floor of this castle measures about 32 squares by 46 squares, and there's more than one floor. Flip mats are too small. Furthermore, it was a minor miracle we managed to get this thing done on time on schedule in the first place. Adventure Path volumes are on a RELENTLESSLY tight monthly schedule, and the extra work it takes to sync up a flip mat or similar product to the Adventure Path, which would require extra work from the AP's developer, is rarely a luxury we can afford. We don't do this often for very very very good reasons. If it were easier and more viable to produce, we would. We don't.

Thank you for answering my questions, Mr. Jacobs.

Personally i hate drawing anything that doesn't fit on a bigger flip mat, as only the Chessex mat is big enough for that.

I used a Chessex mat in combination with three flip-mats to depict the "Briarstone Asylum" from the first part of the Strange Aeons AP and after we finished that first book (which everyone thought was too big of a dungeon with not enough social encounters), i wasn't able to clean the chessex mat, as the red pigments of the black ink seeped into the material and no matter what i tried, it didn't come out, effectively ruining the mat.
It isn't coated and has to be cleaned pretty quickly or parts of the color doesn't come off.

I already pre-ordered the entire AP to give Paizo my support and a chance of winning me over to Second Edition.

But:

1. Mega-Dungeons are lame (according to every player i ever met).

2. They are a pain to draw.

As a result, i probably won't run this or i will cut down the number of rooms significantly.

In my opinion (and that of every longtime-player i know) a good dungeon fits on either a flip-mat or bigger flip-mat.

So i get the points that it involves a lot of planning and is probably too much effort to do a flip-mat for every AP-volume, but when i hear that an area is too big to fit on a mat, i say it is not worth depicting it completely, because it is too big to be played completely anyway.

I get that there are players who enjoy mega-dungeons, but that is the minority in my experience.
These people enjoy the mechanics of the fights, but don't enjoy the story elements of role-playing as much, which is fine for them, but not enough for people with 35 years+ of playing rpgs.

Fun fact: a lot of early D&D adventures were megadungeons and this style of adventures continues to be enjoyed today by many folks who enjoyed them 40 years ago. Rappan Athuk is a great example.

This doesn't really sound like anything one would call a "mega-dungeon". I'd rather think a castle that fits on a flip mat isn't really worthy of the name castle. :)

Also, you don't really need to have every part of the dungeon drawn at the same time, unless you want to create a battle that spans the entire thing. Just put it on paper and just draw what you need for an encounter on the map.

A tip for the Chessex mat: I use Window cleaner like Zekol from Aldi, that can get rid of the seeped-in ink. Just spray the mat and let it soak for an hour, this draws out the ink, and you can wipe it away then. If necessary, repeat.

This doesn't really sound like anything one would call a "mega-dungeon". I'd rather think a castle that fits on a flip mat isn't really worthy of the name castle. :)

Also, you don't really need to have every part of the dungeon drawn at the same time, unless you want to create a battle that spans the entire thing. Just put it on paper and just draw what you need for an encounter on the map.

A tip for the Chessex mat: I use Window cleaner like Zekol from Aldi, that can get rid of the seeped-in ink. Just spray the mat and let it soak for an hour, this draws out the ink, and you can wipe it away then. If necessary, repeat.

You are right about not needing every part at the same time.

Back in the old days of rpgs we used to draw maps on paper only and battles were fought by describing what everybody was doing and without any minis at all.

I much prefer how we do it now: not only with minis and flip-mats, but in some occasions also with 3D terrain and buildings.

I find that players like to explore rooms and to re-visit them later to examine them more thorough or to camp there. Because of that it is more practical (and nicer to lpok at) to let them see everything they have cleared/discovered.

Funny thing: i used Zekol bath cleaner and let it soak for an hourand repeated that two times.
That didn't work.
I will try Fenster Reiniger, maybe that is stronger stuff?! ;-)

Or my mat is too old and porose already. ;-(

Back in the day we enjoyed mega-dungeons too, now we prefer one or two battles and then lots of role-play, mysteries and good story on a gaming night.

One battle after the other gets boring after a while.
It has to be diversified to make it enjoyable.

Eating pizza and other fat stuff can more easily ruin your mat than the ink, because the fat closes the pores and then you can't get the ink out anymore.

I think for me, the main difference between a mega dungeon (like say Rappan Athuk and UnderMountain) versus this place, IE Citadel Altaerein , is the latter just has a dungeon under it. Not making it a main feature comparatively speaking.

Citadel Altaerein is nothing close to megadungeon status.

2: No. The format of a flip mat is too constraining and tiny for the castle in Age of Ashes. The ground floor of this castle measures about 32 squares by 46 squares, and there's more than one floor. Flip mats are too small.

For anyone interested I will almost certainly be making a digital version of any maps in Age of Ashes for use with my projector. No doubt a Community Created Stuff thread will appear for this AP and I will post the maps there for everyone to use. For anyone that doesn't use them I highly recommend getting a projector or HD TV to use on the table for games, they really make things better and large maps like this castle are a complete non-issue. Plus I no longer need to worry about areas of maps the PCs have yet to explore as I can create a layer in GIMP to hide what they have yet to see. I bought my projector and mounting arm on Amazon for $75 and it was easy to install in my kitchen ceiling, and I am not a handy person by anyone's measure.

Of course, not everyone can play in their home, and I know I certainly do not miss the days of having to schlep my GM gear to sessions.

My concern about this volume is that it seems as though a gaming group absolutely Has to have already played through Hell's Rebels Adventure Path. Or at least, guarantees that it will never ever play HR in the future and just accept the setting evolution published in Age of Ashes.

For me, I still really want to play through Hell's Rebels (and then Hell's Vengeance). I've avoided spoilers over the years on these, including not even looking at them when they came in the mail every month -- for a year. But I know that in Hell's Rebel's the PCs are good guys in Kintargo and are trying, um, I guess some kind of revolution against Cheliax. Knowing that the PCs at the end of an AP are suppose to win, it's pretty fair to assume that an independent Kintargo is the Victory at the end of HR -- and I guess now its the entire Archduchy.

So my question is this:
For those of us who have Hell's Rebels on our gaming radar, to get to eventually, will we have to either not play Age of Ashes at all until then, or just put this volume in a back drawer and completely rewrite a volume three on our own, hoping that it fits in?

EDIT: And please, if you are willing to take a stab at answering my concern, pretty please NO Spoilers from HR or HV. Thanks.

The general assumption going into PF2 is that all PF1 adventures have occurred and resulted in success for the PCs, so any PF2 adventure that is set in the same location as a PF1 adventure would spoil the older adventure(s) to some extent -- in fact, the PF2 Core Rulebook and Lost Omens World Guide actually provide a major spoiler by simply mentioning Ravounel -- but you have already alluded to that spoiler yourself.

If you want to play Hell's Rebels and Hell's Vengeance otherwise unspoiled, you pretty much have to avoid any PF2 adventures that are set in or make major references to Cheliax or Ravounel.

Edit: Just to be safe, you might want to avoid the entire Old Cheliax region. I am not sure that even part 1 of this adventure path is free from spoilers.

So my question is this:
For those of us who have Hell's Rebels on our gaming radar, to get to eventually, will we have to either not play Age of Ashes at all until then, or just put this volume in a back drawer and completely rewrite a volume three on our own, hoping that it fits in?

If you play Age of Ashes before Hell's Rebels, there will be some minor spoilers, yes, but nothing more significant than you see from the average movie trailer for a movie.

If one can watch, say, Thor: Ragnarok first and then watch the first Avengers movie second and still enjoy both movies, playing Age of Ashes first and Hell's Rebels second will be kinda the same thing, I guess.

There are spoilers, but they're so minor that I honestly think they'll ENCOURAGE your players to check out Hell's Rebels out of intrigue and curiosity more than they'll ward them off for being spoiled.

James Jacobs,

But is Gallowspire still a Megadungeon that's my question?

The general assumption going into PF2 is that all PF1 adventures have occurred and resulted in success for the PCs, so any PF2 adventure that is set in the same location as a PF1 adventure would spoil the older adventure(s) to some extent -- in fact, the PF2 Core Rulebook and Lost Omens World Guide actually provide a major spoiler by simply mentioning Ravounel -- but you have already alluded to that spoiler yourself.

I wouldn't call that a major spoiler. Saying that Hell's Rebels is the AP about how Ravounel split from Cheliax to become a new nation, free from the tyranny of Asmodeus and House Thrune, doesn't say much about the AP at all. None of it is surprising given the premise of the adventure, and none of the actual game moments (as in, what you do from session to session) are mentioned.

I'm currently playing in an Ironfang Invasion game, but knowing that the hobgoblins form their own nation (at least according to canon - can't see my party going along with that!) doesn't really spoil anything. I still have literally no idea of what's going to happen in book 3, for example.

Hey! There is a one-eyed fluffy on the cover! :)

Hey! There is a one-eyed fluffy on the cover! :)

Squeeeeeee! There is!

Gah just makes me realise how silly mesrials new foor wear is compared to the old,

Gah just makes me realise how silly mesrials new foor wear is compared to the old,

Less pointy?

Is that Ron's wife listed as an author?

I guess it's true what they say, the couple that helps engineer a doomsday together, stays together.

Kevin Mack wrote:

Gah just makes me realise how silly mesrials new foor wear is compared to the old,

Less pointy?

Well slippers I just think they look like something you wouldent go adventuring in. Plus the boots allowed her to hide more knives

Rysky wrote:

Kevin Mack wrote:

Gah just makes me realise how silly mesrials new foor wear is compared to the old,

Less pointy?

Well slippers I just think they look like something you wouldent go adventuring in. Plus the boots allowed her to hide more knives

Blame Bulk.

Kevin Mack wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Kevin Mack wrote:

Gah just makes me realise how silly mesrials new foor wear is compared to the old,

Less pointy?

Well slippers I just think they look like something you wouldent go adventuring in. Plus the boots allowed her to hide more knives

Blame Bulk.

Lots of knives is certainly fun... but the more badass you get, the fewer knives you actually need.

James Jacobs wrote:

But it WILL set the groundwork for something like this, and will allow us to build from there to, perhaps, do a proper Adventure Path in the future which is all about the PCs building, maintaining, improving, and ruling a castle from the ground up. Sort of a micro-version of Kingmaker, but instead it'd be called something like "Castlemaker" but not as goofy sounding. The tricky thing there is that it's tough writing an adventure that works for a castle whose design no author or designer or developer or editor will ever see the floor plan to...

Just chipping in to say that an AP like that sounds awesome.

Have to agree that theoretical AP would be awesome yeah.

I made a thread in general AP thread that I think idea of smaller scale "Settlement Builder" AP would actually be cooler than "Kingdom Building" AP to me since its much easier to get attached to single location than entire country you build :D Castle building AP would be cool for similar reasons, maybe not in the same way, but still enough that it'd be cool to see if that would ever happen

James Jacobs wrote:

2: No. The format of a flip mat is too constraining and tiny for the castle in Age of Ashes. The ground floor of this castle measures about 32 squares by 46 squares, and there's more than one floor. Flip mats are too small.

For anyone interested I will almost certainly be making a digital version of any maps in Age of Ashes for use with my projector. No doubt a Community Created Stuff thread will appear for this AP and I will post the maps there for everyone to use.

I have created a thread and posted a few maps here, more will be added soon. Fell free to add your own if you'd like.

The Raven Black wrote:

I thought Fort Rannick was a castle too

Fun trivia note: I had originally wanted to have Fort Rannick serve as a PC base in the heart of Varisia for Rise of the Runelords, and at one point there was going to be a large article about it in that chapter with rules for players to build up and maintain a castle.

My RotRL party did use it as our base. My PC became its lord and the head of what was left of its guard. Lots of fun moments taking on a lord's duties and privileges.

Is that Ron's wife listed as an author?

I guess it's true what they say, the couple that helps engineer a doomsday together, stays together.

It is, and we do! :-)

captain yesterday wrote:

Is that Ron's wife listed as an author?

I guess it's true what they say, the couple that helps engineer a doomsday together, stays together.

It is, and we do! :-)

Yay!

Ha! Ha! New nation of Ravounel! I love it, also proves that guy who claimed they were some how still part of a Cheliax wrong. Why they believe that...I have no idea.

Because it's true? Per LOWG, Cheliax remains Ravounel's largest export market (for raw materials no less, classic economic dependence), and Ravounel remains culturally Chelish and politically oriented towards Cheliax. It is about as free as Isger.

Exporting goods to Cheliax doesn't mean Cheliax has any sovereignty over Ravounel. They're not a vassal like Isger is.

Pfft, the Domina isn't a Toadie stooge like the leader of Isger, by your metric of "control" Korvasa is still beholden to the Chelish throne.

They are *not* a part of Cheliax, they are their own independent nation.

Also fun fact, you got that somewhat wrong there my friend, Ravounel is trading Cheliax Lumber, Marble and Silver not the other way around. Ergo they are making money off the Devils not the other way around.

I also remember you claiming that the Chels were quite stable, and had not suffered all that much even though the book goes on to make clear they are hoping on a back foot with an armada lost, Goblins being more trusted then Thrune Soldiers in the Isgeri Hinterlands and Andoran under new leadership setting up to pounce just as eagerly as Cheliax is.

I'll concede that Cheliax managed to retake Khari, however, Ravounel is a nation all of what three years old? It's going to take time getting trade agreements working.

The Bellflower Network now has another stable port to send Freedmen and woman out of, the Firebrands are aiding in stoking the fires of rebellion across Cheliax, I feel like whatever happens next, the Thrunes might not be the big dogs on campus when 2E comes to a close.

I know, right? Never in real-world history has a newly independent nation ever continued to trade with its former government. If you trade with someone and share an ethnic or cultural history with them.. you simply can't be independent. Even when you are right door and have trade goods they need and it takes far longer than a couple of years to form new trading partners elsewhere.

VerBeeker wrote:

Ha! Ha! New nation of Ravounel! I love it, also proves that guy who claimed they were some how still part of a Cheliax wrong. Why they believe that...I have no idea.

Because it's true? Per LOWG, Cheliax remains Ravounel's largest export market (for raw materials no less, classic economic dependence), and Ravounel remains culturally Chelish and politically oriented towards Cheliax. It is about as free as Isger.

I get that there are players who enjoy mega-dungeons, but that is the minority in my experience.

These people enjoy the mechanics of the fights, but don't enjoy the story elements of role-playing as much, which is fine for them, but not enough for people with 35 years+ of playing rpgs.

I quite enjoyed "The World's Largest Dungeon". There can be opportunities to RP in a dungeon. I would reconsider declaring what other players enjoy; I, a player of 25+ years, enjoy a good hack and slash every now and then.

I would love a Castlemaker AP and I know my players would as well.

Authorization begins today, subscriber shipping on monday 9th.

Here is the September 2019 new releases & shipping thread for ease of reference.

Authorization begins today, subscriber shipping on monday 9th.

Here is the September 2019 new releases & shipping thread for ease of reference.

Yep! Got mine email today! :D

Can't wait to know how was the "exploration of the dragons of the world" article handled.

Anyone get their copy yet and able to say what the class archetype is?

I hope it's Silver Raven.

Well, it's said to be a CLASS archetype, so unless it doesn't mean we are getting or very first class archetype as per the CRB, I don't think it would be the Silver Raven. I mean, why would it be limited to a class?

Maybe a Silver Raven singer, which would have to be a Bard?