Services How much do Scribes charge?

Service

How much do Scribes charge??

Per Page of Written ??
Per Page of Line drawings ??

Or would you pay them by the Day ??

For like copying books, scrolls, posters, etc.

Hireling, Trained: The amount given is the typical daily wage for mercenary warriors, masons, craftsmen, cooks, scribes, teamsters, and other trained hirelings. This value represents a minimum wage; many such hirelings require significantly higher pay.

Hireling, trained 3 sp per day

Of course you can change it to whatever you feel is fair. As it says: many ask for significantly more, and it may not be unusual for them to request materials used (ink, parchment or paper, ect) in addition to time.

Ok... so if it cost 3 silver a day

How many pages can a scribe do in:
Text
Line Drawing
Pictures

etc. in a days time.

Ok... so if it cost 3 silver a day

How many pages can a scribe do in:
Text
Line Drawing
Pictures

etc. in a days time.

Couldn't find anything in the PRD about it, although I'd assume it would depend on 1, how good they are at it (profession (scribe) or linguistics ranks), and 2, how dedicated of an employee they they are.

If you want a mathmatical breakdown...

If the minimum wage of a scribe is 3 silver a day, and we a assume and average of a 6 day work week with 8 fully worked hours of the day (not including bathroom breaks, meals,ect) then the scribe ears 18 silver a week. If he earns half of his profession check in gold a week that would mean a trained scribe's check should be 3.6 if they are working for minimum wage - much like in real life minimum wage employees aren't working too hard (I kid, I work for just a buck over minimum), considering that taking 10 for a scribe should likely be, if he was decently trained, 10 + 1 (Wis) + 1 (rank) + 3 (proficency) + perhaps 3 more (skill focus) = 15 to 18. Which should be 7.5 to 9 gold a week, or 13 to 15 silver a day for dedicated, albeit average, help. Thus the minimum wage employee should be about 20% or worse as effecient as harder working scribe.

I started having so much fun with my (likely flawed) math that I nearly forgot the purpose of it.

The rules can't take everything into account I suppose, though I may just not have been able to find it. The closest thing I can think of for reading and writing is reading 250 words (1 page) a minute, under Read Magic's description.

It'd really be up to each individual DM's discretion, but I'd definately have what the PC's were willing to pay affect the speed at which the task is completed.

Ok... so if it cost 3 silver a day

How many pages can a scribe do in:
Text
Line Drawing
Pictures

etc. in a days time.

At that point i think you're buying the item and paying in advance.

The thing is i want to Hire a scribe to copy stuff from one book to another. So i am looking for how many pages in a day he could copy and how much he would charge. So that i can have NON-magic books, scrolls, posters, and other things made.

So if i buy a 15 gold piece (100 page) book, travel the land, fight creature, and make some maps in my journal. I want to know how much is would cost to have a Scribe make copy of said journal.

Now if a Hired scribe works for 3 silver a day.... i would like to know how many pages of text or how many maps, or how many pictures he would be able to scribe in a days time. ??

Ok,
Per wikipedia the average person transcribes about 22 words per minute. That's 60 * 22 = 1320 words per hour, 10560 words per day (assuming non-stop 8 hour days). How many pages is irrelevant, as you may have half a page, or a drawing in a page, so you really want words per day.

A double spaced, typed 8.5 by 11 page in 12pt roman is about 200 words. That's about what you'd get on a 5 by 7 notepad, hand written.

So if you want pages, it's about 10560/200 = 52.8, or about 53 pages a day of handwritten words.

You don't get a scribe to do line drawings, you get an artist to reproduce those. No way to determine that, since it's variable depending on how detailed. So, say 1/10 the speed of a scribe on average, or 5 pages of drawings per day for the artist doing detailed line art. For detailed shaded drawings, probably 2.5 per day.

You don't want either for pictures (assuming you mean color portraits), you want an artist. Now you're probably at the 1 page per 3 days for a good watercolor.

The thing is i want to Hire a scribe to copy stuff from one book to another. So i am looking for how many pages in a day he could copy and how much he would charge. So that i can have NON-magic books, scrolls, posters, and other things made.

So if i buy a 15 gold piece (100 page) book, travel the land, fight creature, and make some maps in my journal. I want to know how much is would cost to have a Scribe make copy of said journal.

Now if a Hired scribe works for 3 silver a day.... i would like to know how many pages of text or how many maps, or how many pictures he would be able to scribe in a days time. ??

If its a 15gp book blank, with writing its probably worth 45 (if you consider the finished work to be a product of writing and the 15gp blank the vast majority of the materials cost)

If its illuminated (pictures) The book probably costs 90. If the book has REALLY fancy pictures its probably masterwork, worth 140.

The speed the Scribe could crank out a book would be dependent on his ranks in profession. I'd use the item creation rules under craft.

If you have a scribe just out of school, with a +2 modifier 1 rank +3 for training the book would be done at 8 gp per week.

A master scribe with a +3 modifier, 8 ranks, +3 training and +3 skill focus is going to complete them at 13.5 gp per week.

Ah cool, so on a good adventures salary, i can pay people to make books for the school kids, and pay other scribes to teach kids how to read, write, and use the books.... One step closer to getting out of the Dark Ages then.

Also useful, for production company... Thoth's Adventure's Bestiary, soon to be on sale at a market near you :) .... based on another thread.. might get a 50% to 5000% markup on that :) LOL

At the very least, maybe get a Public Library opened up, for guilds, crafts, and knowledge.

Ah cool, so on a good adventures salary, i can pay people to make books for the school kids, and pay other scribes to teach kids how to read, write, and use the books.... One step closer to getting out of the Dark Ages then.

Also useful, for production company... Thoth's Adventure's Bestiary, soon to be on sale at a market near you :) .... based on another thread.. might get a 50% to 5000% markup on that :) LOL

At the very least, maybe get a Public Library opened up, for guilds, crafts, and knowledge.

If you want to set up a library, do the following :

Pay the scribes to teach the kids to read.

Build a library.

Charge a copper to come in and read whatever you want, until close time.

Put all the adult books in the back room. Charge 5 coppers a day for access to that room.

Let the kids in for free to the front portion, until age 15. That get's the kids hooked on reading, when they hit 15, they come in and pay a copper a day.

Offer to sell a copy of any book in the library for a price based on number of pages. Triple the price of the adult books.

You can subsidize your efforts like that (won't make money, but will cut down on your costs).

Per wikipedia the average person transcribes about 22 words per minute.

*dip* Of course this *dip* rate slows *dip* considerably *dip* if you are *dip* *blot* *dip* scribing with a *dip* goose-quill *cut* *sharpen* *recut* *dip* rather than *dip* a ball point *dip* pen.

*blot*
*dust*
*shake*
*blow*
*set out to dry*

FWiVX .....

*darn* *scratch-erase* *scratch-erase* *scratch-erase*

FWIW,

*dip* *dab* *dab*

Rez

mdt wrote:

Per wikipedia the average person transcribes about 22 words per minute.

*dip* Of course this *dip* rate slows *dip* considerably *dip* if you are *dip* *blot* *dip* scribing with a *dip* goose-quill *cut* *sharpen* *recut* *dip* rather than *dip* a ball point *dip* pen.

*blot*
*dust*
*shake*
*blow*
*set out to dry*

FWiVX .....

*darn* *scratch-erase* *scratch-erase* *scratch-erase*

FWIW,

*dip* *dab* *dab*

Rez

Which is why I listed the transcription speed for an average modern person. The average modern person is not used to transcribing, they're used to copying on a xerox machine.

Any loss from dipping in an ink well and correcting using sand and tree sap would be made up for by the fact they guy is not an average person, but an average professional in the job.

Remember, the average person is NOT the average professional.

Of course if the 3.5 spell compendium is open there is a cantrip that is much quicker than any scribe for copying nonmagical script. Amanuensis, I believe.

Which is why I listed the transcription speed for an average modern person.

SNIP
Any loss from dipping in an ink well [etc.] ... would be made up for by the fact they guy is not an average person, but an average professional in the job.

Remember, the average person is NOT the average professional.

And I counter-argue that the "average professional" would be slower ... not faster ... than the average person.

First, the Wikipedia article is clear to differentiate skilled/professional from "average person" WPM rates for typists, but does not differentiate between professionals and non-professionals for hand-scribing. The only difference listed is in stenography and the use of shorthand, such as for taking dictation, where specific training and experience is required.

However, historically, scribes taking dictation would scribble quickly and then go back and re-write the message/letter in cleaner lettering.

Furthermore, the rates listed not only assume modern writing implements, but someone writing in simple block letters or more likely cursive. Fine texts scribed by monks were done in highly ornate calligraphy. I've done calligraphy, and it is a very slow, painstaking, exacting process.

All this does not take into account the fact that after writing for about 20 minutes without pause your hand starts cramping and you need to take a break and rest, stretch, etc. No one can maintain an 8hour/day pace of solid, non-stop writing.

IIRC, the historical rate for a "simple" page of script is about 1/hour, and fine calligraphy could be 1/day without any illumination. Writing a letter in cursive or informal script will go much faster, and scribbling notes or taking dictation to re-transcribe later faster yet. Still, the mechanical functions of dipping a quill take time ... arguably more time is spend in the "process" than actually writing.

I'd say a rate of 3-5 pages per day would be fair for a "non-artwork quality" book being hand-scribed by a professional using traditional methods.

R.

An average professional is NEVER slower at a job than an average mook doing the same job. That doesn't make any sense. I'm decent at carpentry, I could make a sawhorse in about an hour that would be stable and useable for quite some time. I have watched a professional carpenter make a sawhorse in less than 10 minutes that makes the ones I make look like garbage.

We're not talking about taking dictation, no one ever talked about that. The section of the article I was looking at was the portion about copying previously written words.

You would be surprised at just how fast you can write with an inkwell and a split-tip pen. You assumed a quill pen. I did not. I have written with split-tip metal pens and ink wells (my grandmother considered it something all children should learn). A little practice and it's just as fast as writing with a ball point, and in some ways faster than a pencil (no sharpening).

As to the needing to take a break every 20 minutes, that is your personal experience. Seamstresses (which make very tiny repetitive motions with their hands, I know, my mother is one) work for 10 hours a day sewing (again, I have watched her do this when she was working on christmas presents at home). They stop every 20 minutes or so, and flex their hand, then continue. However, that's beside the point. When taking an average that is figured into it. Sort of the point of averaging yes? To take the various variables into account.

No one said these people were making fancy calligraphy writings. When you talk about the monks you're talking about them trying to make perfect, mistake free, pages for a bible. The requirements, both in how you did it, and how it had to look, added a significant amount of time. Add in the artwork that had to be done around the corners, the double checking to ensure everything was correct per the social requirements, and yes, they took forever. Not because the monk couldn't scribe fast, but because he had to fulfill a mix of professional and religious duties as part of it.

The idea that it would take a professional scribe a day to 4 pages (5 by 7, stenographer sized) is preposterous.

All this does not take into account the fact that after writing for about 20 minutes without pause your hand starts cramping and you need to take a break and rest, stretch, etc. No one can maintain an 8hour/day pace of solid, non-stop writing.

While I can't say how long someone used to it needs to take a break every how often, you have to remember that work days in medivial times weren't 8 hours. More like 12 to 16 hours.

But as was said, there's a cantrip that does this, so you'd probably pay a low level wizard/wizard apprentice to copy a book a couple of times.
Or just anyone who can use a wand.

You might hire the scribe to transfer your own notes into a more readable handwriting, as the notes are most likely done in a fast scribble and hard to decipher. But that would be a one time thing, and after that you use the spell to copy it.

And everyone keeps trying to pull this back down into the Dark Ages.... arg

1) I have written stuff using a Ink well pin before. Yes for the first few days of use, it does slow you down (because you are not use to it)... while your learning to not over dip, and once you dip to use a blotter pad. But after about a week, i was writing stuff down at "almost" the same rate as i do with a modern ink pin. (( A Ink well pin is like those Feathers pens you see in the movies ))

2) I am Not looking for spellbooks, nor religion manuscripts where the whole page is decked out with stuff and then inked out with color. The whole 1 page a day idea... would be for those i guess. But in No way would it normal take a 1 page a day for normal books, posters, scrolls.

3) PLEASE = Stop Under estimating our Ancestors. Yes, during the dark ages many people did not how to read. But before the dark ages.. there was 4000 years of history ((6000 years if you start from today)). People wrote stuff down on Scrolls like crazy ((Not talking about 1 page scroll... these scrolls you unrolled and read the same way you did a BOOK today!!)). ...... The first thing missionaries did in Mexicao city was BURN THOUSANDS of Scrolls. Summarians had clay tablets while Egyption worte lots of stuff on stone and scroll.
=====PS, The biggest problem with history is that every new generation wants to change it to fit their world view. Even in Egypt, with stuff in stone, it was not uncommon practice to try and strike/erase the past rulers name, if he was defeated by the current ruler. Another problem is that Scrolls/Books do not weather well..so while many people would write stuff down...that information has been lost to use today, do to Decay.
=====

Another way to put it. Even scrolls sealed in ceramic jars, stored in a desert, in a climate stable cave... are almost unreadable / crumble after 2000 years....... And Roman scroll are almost unheard of today, unless they were petrified in volcanic ash, and then some treasure hunter finds 200 of them, and burns half as charcoal and hands out the rest as toy for the rich....

Before you ask, yes i watch WAY to much PBS tv show growing up about History, Science, Geology, etc. Althought if i was a PC character.. i still would not have any skill points in Knowledge ;p due to not enought skill point available for my class.

An average professional is NEVER slower at a job than an average mook doing the same job.

Never say never.

In many crafts, professionals will take longer to complete a task than amateurs. However, they will do a considerably higher-quality job.

Consider movies as only one example. A group of "average joes" can take a video camera and shoot an entire 90 minute movie script in a day. If they edit in-camera then it's done-done and they can watch it that evening. It will be terrible. Perhaps hilarious to watch one time while you're drinking with friends (especially if you know the guys who made it). Give them lights and better equipment, and they may take a week or even two to shoot it.

However, a professional, Hollywood studio feature film crew will take 3 months to shoot the same film, and many months more for editing and possible special effects. All in all, you're looking at 1-2 years to produce a film from pre-production through printing. In this case, professionals take far longer than average mooks.

The difference here is that average mooks do not have the training or capability to do the high-quality work of which professional are able. So they do the best they can, and the best they can do is pretty quick.

I know a lot of great artists who do fantastic work and are paid well for it ... but the one thing they can't do is do it fast. They're perfectionists, and they take their time to do a perfect job.

A cloistered scribe doing fine calligraphy or a literate mook scrawling in cursive ... my money's on the mook every time for speed.

R.

mdt wrote:

An average professional is NEVER slower at a job than an average mook doing the same job.

Never say never.

In many crafts, professionals will take longer to complete a task than amateurs. However, they will do a considerably higher-quality job.

Consider movies as only one example. A group of "average joes" can take a video camera and shoot an entire 90 minute movie script in a day. If they edit in-camera then it's done-done and they can watch it that evening. It will be terrible. Perhaps hilarious to watch one time while you're drinking with friends (especially if you know the guys who made it). Give them lights and better equipment, and they may take a week or even two to shoot it.

I believe we have a difference here on what the phrase 'the same job' means. You are taking it as 'make a movie'. Your setting different goalposts for both sets, the pro's and the mook's. You have to set the same goalpost for this to make a valid comparison. For example, if you set the goal as 'Film War and Peace, complete with battlefields and effects', then the pro's are going to do it faster and better than the mooks, because they'll take forever just getting the thing shot. If the goal is 'Film a story about a guy riding his skate board to work while being shot at', then the pro's will STILL do a faster, better job. Because they will be faster in the editing, they'll get things in the first shot more often, etc.

A cloistered scribe doing fine calligraphy or a literate mook scrawling in cursive ... my money's on the mook every time for speed.

R.

And again, nobody, except you, ever talked about a cloistered scribe doing fine calligraphy. What everyone else has been talking about is a professional scribe (they had those you know, not cloistered monks like you see on PBS, professional scribes who got paid to write things down and copy things from one book to another). Scribes eventually evolved into secretaries, lawyers, clerks, CPAs, and other jobs involving keeping track of things on paper. And again, take the average mook, and ask him to do a legal briefing that's valid for court. The lawyer will do it faster, because the mook is going to have to submit it 3-4 times to get it right.

The reason we don't agree is you are considering 'wrong but finished' to equal 'correct and finished'. Basically, you're setting one goalpost for the scribe (must be fine calligraphy, filled in, artistic and with painted borders) and a different, much lower goalpost for the mook (mostly correct and mostly readable).

Set the same goalpost for both. The pro wins every time.