Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Adventurer's Guide (PFRPG)

I'm honestly okay with idea of them having rpg line in future just refer to Golarion, people use Golarion material anyway even without it being "generic" in their own settings so its really silly that there is essentially two settings, generic one nobody uses as is and Golarion.

Personally, I am OK with this being in the RPG line, but I still have to wonder why they decided to go for this experiment and not put this book in the Campaign Setting line, where, I think, given the information we have, it would be a better fit.

Personally, I am OK with this being in the RPG line, but I still have to wonder why they decided to go for this experiment and not put this book in the Campaign Setting line, where, I think, given the information we have, it would be a better fit.

My guess? They were originally going to do setting generic "faction book", kinda like how Villain Codex is setting generic villain-group-for-campaign book, before figuring out that its just easier to do Golarion based info since setting generic factions player can be part of would be more incompatable with Golarion than any other rpg line books.

graywulfe wrote:

At the end of the day, I will most likely purchase the pdf of this product.

That said I definitely am feeling a lot of cognitive dissonance between the title of the book and the described content. Obviously, we can not know what will be in the book at the time of publishing, that simply means the only thing we have to go on is the Product Description on the product page above. This is usually an incredibly solid indicator of what to expect from the content of the book. In this case, that description does not match the title, in my opinion.

I almost think something like Adventurer Guilds Guide or something like that would more evoke what we get from the description.

Still, what Rysky said immediately above your post is valid.

"in Pathfinder where Adventurer is borderline synonymous with Player Character the title is about as generic as it can get."
It's been addressed ad nauseam.

I would say I am sorry that me expressing my opinion bothers you but that would be disingenuous. I have a right and responsibility to express how I feel about the products that companies I appreciate produce. I have been polite in how I expressed myself and not violated any rules of the messageboards. I read Rysky's post and felt in disagreement with it but felt I could express my feelings without directly responding to it, apparently I was in error.

The title being that generic is not a good thing. If Ultimate Magic had been a book all about the Words of Power system and nothing else, that would be a poor choice for a title. The title would be too generic for such a specific set of content. The title should evoke the contents of the book, this title does not do that for me. When I read the title I did not imagine in any way that the books contents would be what is described in the product description. Even now, knowing the contents of the book and the title together it still creates a cognitive dissonance for me.

This is not a personal attack on anyone. I just disagree that the title works for this book.

One last thing, the contents, as described, are in no way undesirable. In fact, as I said in my first post I will almost certainly purchase this product, but that intent to purchase makes it all the more important that I voice my concerns regarding the choice of title, as I will not be "voting with my wallet."

I've said my piece, unless someone brings up something new I feel the need to respond to, I am done with this aspect of the conversation.

I would say I am sorry that me expressing my opinion bothers you but that would be disingenuous.

No one is bothered by your opinion.

Ed Reppert wrote:

I've seen some pretty silly arguments on the internet. I won't say this one takes the cake, but it's right up there.

I know that taking forty cakes is terrible, but where does one cake rank?

Well if 40 cakes is 1 Tera-ble is 1 trillion bles, 1 cake would be 2 Billion 500 million Bles.

I'm honestly okay with idea of them having rpg line in future just refer to Golarion, people use Golarion material anyway even without it being "generic" in their own settings so its really silly that there is essentially two settings, generic one nobody uses as is and Golarion.

It seems to me that the 'setting adjacent' product line has never really embraced the idea of using rules elements (such as clerics of philosophy, available in the Pathfinder core rulebook, but not in Golarion) anyway, so this seems like a tacit admission of the way it's always been. If it ain't a comfortable fit with Golarion's setting specifics then it's not something that generally gets written up even in the non-Golarion-set rules books.

If anything, I'd not mind seeing the pendulum swing the *other* way, and for the non-Golarion-setting rules line to include some elements that explicitly *aren't* for Golarion, like the old Deities & Demigods, including all sorts of gods that weren't part of Greyhawk or the Realms, or a magic or psionic system that uses 'mana' or 'power points.'

But, from a business standpoint, that's probably a terrible idea, producing content that explicitly doesn't fit into the setting (and would be automatically ruled out for PFS). Much like TSR attempting to support multiple settings, it would probably just factionalize and decrease the customer base into ever-diminishing camps, rather than grow it.

So, logically, it makes more sense to abandon the notion of there being a product line with 'setting-neutral' content entirely, and stick to a more 'our way or the highway' model of Golarion or bust. It does seem like content that isn't incorporated into the setting, such as Words of Power, tends to wither for lack of support, so perhaps it's best to just stop producing said 'one and done' content, and stick to stuff that fits into the setting (or can be retroactively fit into the setting, as Summoners have been) and be supported in the future.

(That said, if Words of Power had caught on, I suspect that, like the Summoner class, it would have been integrated into the setting somewhere, perhaps on another continent, or among a specific culture.)

graywulfe wrote:

I would say I am sorry that me expressing my opinion bothers you but that would be disingenuous.

No one is bothered by your opinion.

Understood. Happens to us all.

This looks fantastic.

I appreciate the use of Golarion-originated organizations rather than generic names (as in the Villain Codex) to represent similar concepts.

TOZ wrote:

graywulfe wrote:

I would say I am sorry that me expressing my opinion bothers you but that would be disingenuous.

No one is bothered by your opinion.

** spoiler omitted **

Not a problem at all. Sorry if you took offense at my post. Just very weary of the whole "this doesn't fit" argument that has dominated at least half of the thread.

Yeah, I still intend to get this, even if I think the name doesn't seem to reflect what the contents appear to be based on what's been said already. That's my feedback, and Paizo can, of course, choose to ignore it. In all honesty, I'm not sure how useful this will be to me, but I'm willing to at least see.

I'm taking a wait and see til all the other unknown books are listed (and finalized and not shifted around as much, but I see how this happens at times) for 2017, BUT

Change the title please, its fairly obvious to many it just does'nt fit, especially for newer players not in the PF loop.

Next, I GM AP's mostly and a player of them, though not often enough, so I'm curious how these organizations can be "plugged into" specific APs.

From a GM PoV more than a player as the new stuff for players seems pretty good so far.

Tom

Next, I GM AP's mostly and a player of them, though not often enough, so I'm curious how these organizations can be "plugged into" specific APs.

Well... I think you can guess which AP could benefit from the Gray Maidens' new content. ^_^

Hellknights play a part in at least 3 APs. In addition, Kingmaker takes place just south of Brevoy, and has an Aldori-related Campaign Trait, which might mean a PC swordlord (who will attract challengers!)

As a frequent GM myself, I definitely understand. I think you'll find this book quite useful.

Kingmaker takes place just south of Brevoy, and has an Aldori-related Campaign Trait, which might mean a PC swordlord (who will attract challengers!)

As a frequent GM myself, I definitely understand. I think you'll find this book quite useful.

Being a big Kingmaker/River Kingdoms fan, anything Aldori-related definitely gets my notice.

I do hope one day we can get a book of some sort that covers the Poisoners and Assassins' Guillds of Daggermark, as well.

Sounds good Isabelle, What about the less known groups and popping them into other AP's, Reasonably and beleavably for the players, as well as myself (LOL).

Thanks

Tom

Does this means I can have a Gray Maiden archetype and Prestige class?
Or will this have any new to the Shieldmarshals?
If it does it means a "Must Buy".

Does this means I can have a Gray Maiden archetype and Prestige class?

Or will this have any new to the Shieldmarshals?
If it does it means a "Must Buy".

I can't give any details... but I highly recommend making room in your budget for this. ^_^

Going through Villain Codex now... and while it's 'generic', it still uses the Core gods for NPCs i.e. cleric of Asmodeus, which are the same gods in Golarion. Basically it's not a huge stretch to make the 'generic' Villain Codex part of your Golarion campaign setting, and I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that it won't be hard converting the 'campaign setting' Adventurer's Guide to something 'generic' enough for your pagan, godless and nondescript homebrewed campaign worlds out there... ;)

Going through Villain Codex now... and while it's 'generic', it still uses the Core gods for NPCs i.e. cleric of Asmodeus, which are the same gods in Golarion. Basically it's not a huge stretch to make the 'generic' Villain Codex part of your Golarion campaign setting, and I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that it won't be hard converting the 'campaign setting' Adventurer's Guide to something 'generic' enough for your pagan, godless and nondescript homebrewed campaign worlds out there... ;)

If anything the fact that Villain Codex did so well with generic-setting organisations makes me think more why Adventurers Guide has to have such setting-tied organisations. It's obvious it doesn't have to be Golarion-tied for paizo writers to create interesting groups and yet...

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Going through Villain Codex now... and while it's 'generic', it still uses the Core gods for NPCs i.e. cleric of Asmodeus, which are the same gods in Golarion. Basically it's not a huge stretch to make the 'generic' Villain Codex part of your Golarion campaign setting, and I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that it won't be hard converting the 'campaign setting' Adventurer's Guide to something 'generic' enough for your pagan, godless and nondescript homebrewed campaign worlds out there... ;)

If anything the fact that Villain Codex did so well with generic-setting organisations makes me think more why Adventurers Guide has to have such setting-tied organisations. It's obvious it doesn't have to be Golarion-tied for paizo writers to create interesting groups and yet...

Villain Codex *is* Golarion-tied... is what I'm saying. Look hard enough and you'll see. YOU'VE BEEN FOOLED!! MUHAHAHAHAH! THIS WAS ALL TO PREPARE YOU FOR 'FULL' OFFICIAL INDOCTRINATION TO GOLARION WITH ADVENTURER'S GUIDE! MUHAHAHAHAHAH!

...SORRy.... the darn LE social identity sometimes tries to take over... back to my regular PDK vigilante identity... :P

Edit: think of 'generic' products as social identity of Paizo, and the 'campaign setting' as the vigilante identity. Or the other way around, your choice. It's two sides of the same thing. Add the Beyond Morality (Ex) mythic ability, and stir until smooth and runny like pancake batter. Chill, serve and enjoy! :P

Villain Codex *is* Golarion-tied... is what I'm saying. Look hard enough and you'll see. YOU'VE BEEN FOOLED!! MUHAHAHAHAH! THIS WAS ALL TO PREPARE YOU FOR 'FULL' OFFICIAL INDOCTRINATION TO GOLARION WITH ADVENTURER'S GUIDE! MUHAHAHAHAHAH!

Heh.

It's not anymore tied to golarion than to be expected of the RPG-line, which is basically just "We put the gods in the CRB". Using material which are in the CRB isn't really any additional tie to the setting of Golarion.

[strokes white cat]"HMMM YES, [twirls mustache]YES... QUITE RIGHT SIR,[/twirls mustache] QUITE SO...[/strokes white cat]

Speaking of core line gods, would be actually nice to get advice on how they are supposed to be used in non Golarion setting?

I mean seriously, generic line books have never addressed how to use Cayden Cailean who doesn't really make sense outside of Golarion without heavy rewrites to his backstory .-.

Speaking of core line gods, would be actually nice to get advice on how they are supposed to be used in non Golarion setting?

Not really. Even ignoring my views on mixing Golarion with RPG-line. Does it sort of remove the whole point of using them without Golarion-fluff if you just want to use them as whatever Paizo says... since then you may as well just use what Golarion has them as.

As it is now in Pathfinder, they give the option of using their fluff from Golarion, or making up the details as you need for your campaign using the mechanics given as the basis. So there's not much reason to make up non-golarion fluff for the golarion gods.

That said, I can picture a RPG-line book with a focus on religion that had a section on making gods and non-standard interpretations of domains (like a good god of death or something) which used a reflavoured golarion deity as an example.

I mean seriously, generic line books have never addressed how to use Cayden Cailean who doesn't really make sense outside of Golarion without heavy rewrites to his backstory .-.

Cayden Cailean doesn't have any aspects in the RPG-line that don't make sense for RPG-line since the RPG-line doesn't have his backstory.... So that's trying to fix an issue that doesn't exist.

If anything the fact that Villain Codex did so well with generic-setting organisations makes me think more why Adventurers Guide has to have such setting-tied organisations. It's obvious it doesn't have to be Golarion-tied for paizo writers to create interesting groups and yet...

I don't think anyone says it has to. My impression is not that paizo felt forced into the experiment but that they wanted to.

Presumably it's based partly on the idea that taking out flavour you don't like is pretty easy whereas making up canonical golarion flavour is pretty hard. I presume the thinking also was something along the lines of: "All these villain codex entries would be much more usable for people using golarion if they were set there. For people who don't use golarion, they'll either like our flavour material and use it in their chosen setting, modify our flavour material or discard it completely and just take some mechanical gizmos. Irrespective, it doesn't really matter if it's generic fantasyland flavour or golarion flavour they're sorting through".

If I pay 40 USD for a collection of NPC statblocks by Paizo, I don't want to put additional work into hammering them onto the setting of my choice. There are more than enough setting-neutral 3PP NPC collections out there for folks who don't do Golarion.

The Gray Maidens are fairly new. They only began a few years ago as the personal bodyguard of Queen Ilosea. They got organized very quickly.
I think they may be the most mysterious of the group.

CorvusMask wrote:

Speaking of core line gods, would be actually nice to get advice on how they are supposed to be used in non Golarion setting?

Not really.

Quote:

I mean seriously, generic line books have never addressed how to use Cayden Cailean who doesn't really make sense outside of Golarion without heavy rewrites to his backstory .-.

Cayden Cailean doesn't have any aspects in the RPG-line that don't make sense for RPG-line since the RPG-line doesn't have his backstory.... So that's trying to fix an issue that doesn't exist.

Hush, don't speak for me and my lack of creativity when it comes to adapting material from other people xD

That said, book that gives on advice on creating interesting gods and interpretation of domains would be nice indeed

I never thought of the Grey Maidens as mysterious so much as "Wow. Ilosea must have some torturers on retainer to get that many pumped out before year's end."

I never thought of the Grey Maidens as mysterious so much as "Wow. Ilosea must have some torturers on retainer to get that many pumped out before year's end."

That, and she found a surprising number of attractive, physically fit women of the right age who were willing to volunteer, especially accounting for training attrition failures.

The b@!%% gets s*+* done!

A credit to feminine despots everywhere!

"Volunteer" is such a... flexible word. ^_^

"Volunteer" is such a... flexible word. ^_^

Just like the volunteers!

The Sleepless Agency could also use some support, though I'm not very hopeful for them to be included in this book.

I'm somewhat disappointed by the anachronistic paradigm shift regarding the release of new prestige classes. I think there were several good reasons to turn away from prestige classes in favor of archetypes. The arguments SKR made in this video a while ago are still valid. Also, unlike real classes, most prestige classes lack additional support and have less build diversity/customizability, making them less desirable as player options. I hope this is not a trend that will continue in future products.

I'm with graywulfe as far as the disconnect thing goes, because when I took a look at the product, I wouldn't have expected what I would see there.

BUT ( and yeah, that's an intentional use of majuscules) I really, really like the concept. I may have said it before but I am a setting guy at core, and generic rule books do not really do much for me. I mean, I don't mind having all those new options to chose from, but generally speaking, I wouldn't miss them if I hadn't. And most of the time I do not even look them up if they don't come up in an official adventure or if a player won't choose the option for their character.

On the other hand I have much more interest in setting related rules material (for example as shown in the companion line), because this stuff makes me immediately think about using them in my (Golarion) game. And interestingly enough, even when I'm working on my own setting, I get more inspiration from world specific stuff than from generic stuff.

Meaning that so far, the official Paizo line of generic rules stuff was as interesting to me as the generic rules stuff written by 3PPs (sometimes even less, because small publishers can go crazier with their ideas because they don't need to appeal to as large an audience than Paizo does). I repeat, it's not about the quality , it's simply that I'm more interested in other things.

So I expect that this book will deliver me rules in spades and still does more to inspire me than the normal rules stuff exactly because it's better connected to the setting. And yeah, I still intend to steal a lot of it for my own setting. Probably more than I'll use in Golarion context.

The Sleepless Agency could also use some support, though I'm not very hopeful for them to be included in this book.

Based on the info from Strange Aeons, the Agency's membership is quite sparse. This book seems to be focusing on the big movers and shakers as opposed to tiny niche organizations.

On my end, I so want the Night Heralds or an Old Cult to be among the groups detailed. Also, so resigned to the fact that it probably won't be.

GV,

I'm wondering if the Esoteric Order of the Palatine Eye will be featured or not...

GV,

I'm wondering if the Esoteric Order of the Palatine Eye will be featured or not...

Yeah good question. My gut says yes. They're a fairly prolific group with a lot of reach, plenty of members, and tons of cool lore.

Well I wouldn't mind seeing that again, plus it might help now that there's more classes for them to work their way in (IE psychics for example.)

I hope the other eight organizations include some of the following: the Knights of Ozem‎, the Eagle Knights, the Night Heralds, the Whispering Way, the Arclords of Nex, the Shackles Pirates, the Riftwardens, and the White Witches of Irrisen. :D

I hope the other eight organizations include some of the following: the Knights of Ozem‎, the Eagle Knights, the Night Heralds, the Whispering Way, the Arclords of Nex, the Shackles Pirates, the Riftwardens, and the White Witches of Irrisen. :D

The Eagle Knights are noted in the product description, so you're getting at least one of these for sure.

There's at least two in that list that I would love to write, if a follow-up to this product happens. ^_^

Isabelle Lee wrote:

"Volunteer" is such a... flexible word. ^_^

Just like the volunteers!

When I enlisted in the Army in '87, I "volunteered," for anything and everything.

There's at least two in that list that I would love to write, if a follow-up to this product happens. ^_^

Gods if only I could pay Paizo to have you do a manual expanding on Magnimar's mystery cults (including a large entry on Arshea's clergy) Belle hun. :D

There's at least two in that list that I would love to write, if a follow-up to this product happens. ^_^

I hope one of them is the Esoteric Order of the Palatine Eye.

I hope to the Wasp Queens...if nothing else it would give use some support for rogue/cleric concepts.

I'll be keeping an eye out for how the handle the Lantern Bearers. I remember reading the Faction Guide and going "Good-aligned and also genocide. Uhhhhhhhhhhhhh."

But I dunno. That's kind of one of those weird things that gets implied in a lot of fantasy fiction. I've annoyed one of my GMs by being too "real-world ethics."

The Lantern Bearers' previous depictions were definitely problematic in various ways.

I hope you'll be very pleased when you see how things turned out, PannicAtack. ^_^