I had zero interest in this book, but the Ratfolk stuff is probably going to get me to buy a pdf. It sounds like it might lead to nice carryover/conversion opportunities for Starfinder next year if you want to port over a Psychic or other occult class.
Now that I know they went with the ARG style catfolk artwork, I can see why catfolk didn't make the cover art of the book.
Wow, after parsing the rules a bit, I think that a transformation focused kitsune with sneak attack is really good now. The build just takes a while to come together because of the BAB requirement on Vulpine Pounce.
Technically, you can feint an opponent at long range, it usually just doesn't accomplish anything since feint only works for melee attacks. However, a kitsune with the transformation feats can shapeshift as a swift action, get a free feint, and then pounce the opponent for a full round attack of sneak attacks. Unless I am mistaken, you can get both the feint *and* the pounce off of a single swift action shapeshift. That's... really deadly.
Too bad only a slayer can meet the BAB requirements at a reasonable level though, and they don't have high sneak attack. Also, there is always a chance that there is something that keeps this from working that I haven't seen in the actual book yet.
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Too bad only a slayer can meet the BAB requirements at a reasonable level though, and they don't have high sneak attack. Also, there is always a chance that there is something that keeps this from working that I haven't seen in the actual book yet.
Shapechanging Savage's Bluff check takes a swift action as well. You can't combine it with Swift Shapechanger, as that is two swift actions.
Wow, after parsing the rules a bit, I think that a transformation focused kitsune with sneak attack is really good now. The build just takes a while to come together because of the BAB requirement on Vulpine Pounce.
Technically, you can feint an opponent at long range, it usually just doesn't accomplish anything since feint only works for melee attacks. However, a kitsune with the transformation feats can shapeshift as a swift action, get a free feint, and then pounce the opponent for a full round attack of sneak attacks. Unless I am mistaken, you can get both the feint *and* the pounce off of a single swift action shapeshift. That's... really deadly.
Too bad only a slayer can meet the BAB requirements at a reasonable level though, and they don't have high sneak attack. Also, there is always a chance that there is something that keeps this from working that I haven't seen in the actual book yet.
Don't know if the feint would apply to all the attacks.
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I think that Human Guise is going to prove interesting as a costly way to get the coveted "count as human" ability. It is costly because it apparently is a feat and not an all but free alternate racial trait as the corresponding features for many native outsider races are.
If I understand this right, it enables a Kitsune to count as human from first level and as nearly any other humanoid race from third level (the earliest level at which he can take Racial Heritage).
Don't know if the feint would apply to all the attacks.Wow, after parsing the rules a bit, I think that a transformation focused kitsune with sneak attack is really good now. The build just takes a while to come together because of the BAB requirement on Vulpine Pounce.
Technically, you can feint an opponent at long range, it usually just doesn't accomplish anything since feint only works for melee attacks. However, a kitsune with the transformation feats can shapeshift as a swift action, get a free feint, and then pounce the opponent for a full round attack of sneak attacks. Unless I am mistaken, you can get both the feint *and* the pounce off of a single swift action shapeshift. That's... really deadly.
Too bad only a slayer can meet the BAB requirements at a reasonable level though, and they don't have high sneak attack. Also, there is always a chance that there is something that keeps this from working that I haven't seen in the actual book yet.
In theory, the Greater Feint Feat would make the opponent lose his dexterity bonus for an entire round.
The biggest drawback to this build is probably going to be the sheer number of feats involved. Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Greater Feint, Quick Kitsune Shapechanger, Vulpine Pounce, plus the new Transform+Feint feat. Plus the character would want the usual Weapon Finesse feats... ick.
What?! Superior Shapeshifter alternate racial trait lets kitsune get Fox Form at level 1, ignoring prerequisites, instead of Kitsune Magic. Oh. my God.
Omg. That's amazing.
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I just realized that its kinda sad that whenever catfolk are brought up conversation inevitably becomes about "I preferred this version of catfolk" discussion instead of discussing about non art part of the race .-.
This is a game we play largely in our heads and when we see something that doesn't match that with official sanction there's a bit of geek "NooOOOOoooOOOOO!"
Artists can depict a bowl of fruit dozens of ways, for anthropomorphic races you have dozens of styles interacting with dozens of variables on the sliding scale of anthropomorphism. Getting something that's just right to everyone's individual tastes to an audience of wildly different ideas of what it should be is neigh impossible.
Wait did I hear that you can get fox form at level 1 for kitsune?
What are the favored class bonuses for the kineticist?** spoiler omitted **
-Skeld
Wait, hold on. That first one, what are the specifics on that? Because from what I can gather, that's a REALLY GOOD option to take. Is it limited in some way?
What are the favored class bonuses for the kineticist?** spoiler omitted **
-Skeld
For the Vanara kineticist FCB, could you elaborate on what "1/3 points of burn" means? Is that +maximum burn? Burn per round? A reduction on burn costs?
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The Best part of the kitsune?
Kitsune Alternate Favored Class Bonus: +1/6 of a Magical Tail Feat (Any Class).
Outside of PFS, the human feat is pretty cool if you want to take advantage of weird race combinations using the feat Racial Heritage (like the Ratfolk Tail Blade), but in PFS most of that stuff is banned in the Additional Resources even with the feat.
There's also three racial spells for them that are nifty. Especially the Suggestion spell that spreads like an infection.
Yup. Fighters can now get all nine tails at level 6. And Oracles at level 7.
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The Best part of the kitsune?
** spoiler omitted **
Yup. Fighters can now get all nine tails at level 6. And Oracles at level 7.
Those kitsune racial traits and favored class bonuses are REALLY good. They're not overpowered, but they add exactly the kinds of flavor that the race needed. They can get tails more easily, be skilled and intelligent tricksters, and have a starting fox form.
A little sad that none of the racial traits replace the bite attack, but I will admit that may have been a hard one to explain away.
You can tell that a lot of thought went into the kitsune section, as if they had a certain really kitsune obsessed person write a lot of it ;)
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For the Vanara kineticist FCB, could you elaborate on what "1/3 points of burn" means? Is that +maximum burn? Burn per round? A reduction on burn costs?What are the favored class bonuses for the kineticist?** spoiler omitted **
-Skeld
+1/3 to the total number of points of burn that you can accept before you can't choose to accept any more.
-Skeld
+1/3 to the total number of points of burn that you can accept before you can't choose to accept any more.
-Skeld
Okay, good. Free burn mitigation would have been way too good.
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For the Vanara kineticist FCB, could you elaborate on what "1/3 points of burn" means? Is that +maximum burn? Burn per round? A reduction on burn costs?What are the favored class bonuses for the kineticist?** spoiler omitted **
-Skeld
+1/3 to the total number of points of burn that you can accept before you can't choose to accept any more.
-Skeld
So vanaras can overclock their bodies to even more dangerous levels then?
I'm suddenly reminded of Dragon Ball Z.
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Exactly. I was enchanted immediately by Eade's version. Its pose/behavior seemed more congruous with cats as well.Agreed. Eade really brought something new to the style of that all the others really lack. The later art feels a bit too derivative of the Khajit we see all too often to really stand out from the pack of cat people we see in fantasy.Favorite catfolk art of mine, period. None of the others come close, in my opinion. Fantastic vision in that piece of art.The Bestiary had the absolutely awesome Carolina Eade art.So what sort of look have they went for the catfolk? Bestiary version, Race guide version or something else?I don't remember what Catfolk looked like in either of those books, I'll just say that the two pieces of art look like furry people with feline (cat, lion, tiger, whatever) heads and feet, with clawed people hands.
-Skeld
Yeah. Meanwhile Eade's catfolk kind of feels like Asha Clan Clan from Outlaw Star, filtered through Thief & The Cobbler, and mixed with a dash of high fantasy Arabia to make something novel that can stand on its own.
Don't know if the feint would apply to all the attacks.Wow, after parsing the rules a bit, I think that a transformation focused kitsune with sneak attack is really good now. The build just takes a while to come together because of the BAB requirement on Vulpine Pounce.
Technically, you can feint an opponent at long range, it usually just doesn't accomplish anything since feint only works for melee attacks. However, a kitsune with the transformation feats can shapeshift as a swift action, get a free feint, and then pounce the opponent for a full round attack of sneak attacks. Unless I am mistaken, you can get both the feint *and* the pounce off of a single swift action shapeshift. That's... really deadly.
Too bad only a slayer can meet the BAB requirements at a reasonable level though, and they don't have high sneak attack. Also, there is always a chance that there is something that keeps this from working that I haven't seen in the actual book yet.
In theory, the Greater Feint Feat would make the opponent lose his dexterity bonus for an entire round.
The biggest drawback to this build is probably going to be the sheer number of feats involved. Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Greater Feint, Quick Kitsune Shapechanger, Vulpine Pounce, plus the new Transform+Feint feat. Plus the character would want the usual Weapon Finesse feats... ick.
Annnd it turns out this doesn't work after all. Shapechanging Savage lets you make the feint as a swift action, but quick shapechange is also a swift action. That means you can't combine this with a full attack, since you would have to do the shapechange as a move or standard action. I guess I'm having trouble seeing the point in this feat now, since it doesn't really help with your action economy in any way?
Well, I guess it does let you feint against more creature types.
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I just realized that its kinda sad that whenever catfolk are brought up conversation inevitably becomes about "I preferred this version of catfolk" discussion instead of discussing about non art part of the race .-.This is a game we play largely in our heads and when we see something that doesn't match that with official sanction there's a bit of geek "NooOOOOoooOOOOO!"
Artists can depict a bowl of fruit dozens of ways, for anthropomorphic races you have dozens of styles interacting with dozens of variables on the sliding scale of anthropomorphism. Getting something that's just right to everyone's individual tastes to an audience of wildly different ideas of what it should be is neigh impossible.
I would also argue that since pathfinder races in general and catfolk in specific don't have many mechanical options exclusively tied to their race and with catfolk in particular lacking a lot of narrative as compared to many of the other races we are kind of only left with the art to discuss. So far it has kind of been the most distinct thing exclusive to catfolk.
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I would also argue that since pathfinder races in general and catfolk in specific don't have many mechanical options exclusively tied to their race and with catfolk in particular lacking a lot of narrative as compared to many of the other races we are kind of only left with the art to discuss. So far it has kind of been the most distinct thing exclusive to catfolk.
There are a number of us in the office who would love to expand on the role of catfolk within the Pathfinder setting, but we just haven't had the opportunity to do so in the right place yet. While I had hoped this book would be present such a chance, we wanted to make sure to give every race included as many new rules options as possible. That meant that we couldn't focus as much on flavor as we might have in something like a campaign setting book or adventure path volume. Rest assured, however, that we will further explore catfolk ecologies, history, and society when the time is right. Until then, let us know how you want them to look, I guess.
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I would also argue that since pathfinder races in general and catfolk in specific don't have many mechanical options exclusively tied to their race and with catfolk in particular lacking a lot of narrative as compared to many of the other races we are kind of only left with the art to discuss. So far it has kind of been the most distinct thing exclusive to catfolk.There are a number of us in the office who would love to expand on the role of catfolk within the Pathfinder setting, but we just haven't had the opportunity to do so in the right place yet. While I had hoped this book would be present such a chance, we wanted to make sure to give every race included as many new rules options as possible. That meant that we couldn't focus as much on flavor as we might have in something like a campaign setting book or adventure path volume. Rest assured, however, that we will further explore catfolk ecologies, history, and society when the time is right. Until then, let us know how you want them to look, I guess.
I'm a big fan of the Inner Sea Races compromise, myself. ^_^
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I'd also love to write some of it, if you need someone when the time comes. ^_^
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Finally got my PDF.
Thanks again for all the information Skeld. Though it seems the only time you don't get the PDF before everyone else is when you didn't get the product to begin with:)
I love the catfolk art from B3. I understand that everyone's taste is different but please can we see more art like B3's. At least once in a while.
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There are a number of us in the office who would love to expand on the role of catfolk within the Pathfinder setting, but we just haven't had the opportunity to do so in the right place yet. While I had hoped this book would be present such a chance, we wanted to make sure to give every race included as many new rules options as possible. That meant that we couldn't focus as much on flavor as we might have in something like a campaign setting book or adventure path volume. Rest assured, however, that we will further explore catfolk ecologies, history, and society when the time is right. Until then, let us know how you want them to look, I guess.
Only thing I know about catfolk on Golarion so far is that they chill somewhere on Garund, and have not made many appearances in the cities of the other races.
I reckon an exploration into their cities and societies will need to explain why they have not been seen much to date, and give a reason for them to slowly start making more appearances. Perhaps give them some presence in an AP that pushes them out of seclusion (not a whole AP on them, just one event in an upcoming AP).
And if the execs need a reason for giving catfolk a bigger presence on Golarion... well, just show them cat videos on the internet. The internet loves cats! =D
I needs dis.
By the way -- Is Human Guise a feat or an alternate racial trait?
I thought it was included in a list of three feats, but one of the other listed items was just described as an alternate racial trait on this page.
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I think part of the problem is that the 'Eade Catfolk' art has a great deal of similarity to some 'Eade Human' art (e.g. 1 & 2 - thin elongated limbs, excessively pointy-toed shoes, spiky fingers, shreds of almost clothing that don't quite add up, et cetera).
In short, the one image we have is heavily influenced by a single artist's distinctive style. Would an 'unEade' Catfolk look as different from that baseline image as many human illustrations do from those two examples above? If not, does that mean all artists need to try to mimic her style? What about male catfolk, what do they look like? Et cetera.
It is a great image, but not enough to build the look of an entire race upon. Someone needs to expand the portfolio... and it could be very tricky determining the essential elements of 'catfolkness' that different people identify with in the image... and that's not even counting the people who like the other design.
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Until then, let us know how you want them to look, I guess.As someone who is super-excited for future catfolk content, I'd much, much prefer for the Bestiary 3 art to be the standard. ^_^
Well, since you ask, I much, much, MUCH prefer the more humanish-headed version (comic book Cheetah/Tigra style, and/or Eade), and I outright hate the cat-headed (Khajiit) version.
Yeah, I also prefer Eade's take from Bestiary 3 the best.
As others had suggested when ARG first came out, I too could easily see the more cat-headed/animalistic versions being different subethnicities (like Golarion's tieflings or Faerun's 3 hin/halfling subraces). Perhaps the more cat-headed individuals trace their lineage back to Osirion or Vudra, owing to a drop or two of blood from Bastet/Sekhmet or rakshasa, respectively, in their distant ancestry? And/Or perhaps from an Incan-/Aztec-influenced ancestry from one of the largely unexplored areas of the planet.
Or maybe catfolk temporarily get more cat-like when they activate certain class abilities related to a feline bloodline/bloodrage, witch patron, oracle mystery, etc?
And yes, I'd be very happy for more catfolk stuff written by Isabelle. :) And more ratfolk by Crystal and kitsune by Alex.
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Until then, let us know how you want them to look, I guess.
Bestiary 3 version. For non-Eade examples, I think the rebooted Thundercats version should serve as a set of decent examples of a variety of male and female catfolk.
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Amusing fact: the kitsune vigilante favored class bonus is +1/2 to the disguise bonus from seamless guise. A high level kitsune who combines that with Seamless Shapechanger so he adds gets to use his Seamless Disguise bonus while shape-changed can get truly absurd disguise skill checks.
Let's see, the theoretical total is...
+10 racial
+10 polymorph
+20 seamless disguise
+10 favored class bonus
+20 skill points
+3 class skill
+6 skill focus (for absurdity)
+1 for average kitsune charisma mod
For a total of a +80 bonus to disguise. If he rolls a 20, he gets a disguise skill check of 100. He won't detect as magical by the way, you need true seeing to see past the disguise. A level 20 kitsune vigilante with the realistic likeness feat could pretend to be your best friend, one of your parents, and your spouse all in the same day and you'd never suspect a thing.
So not really specifically interested in any of the races this book is focused on....how many of the mechanics options (Feats, spells, etc...) are actually usable by other races ???
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So not really specifically interested in any of the races this book is focused on....how many of the mechanics options (Feats, spells, etc...) are actually usable by other races ???
From what I can tell, most of the options aside from racial traits and favored class bonuses are available to all races as long as they can meet the prereqs. For example, most kitsune vigilante abilities and feats are available to all (kitsune passed them on to others, or inspired them). However, the shapechanging feats and abilities require that the user either be a shapechanger or have wildshape.
Most of the abilities are most useful for most thematic for the race that they are grouped with however.
Amusing fact: the kitsune vigilante favored class bonus is +1/2 to the disguise bonus from seamless guise. A high level kitsune who combines that with Seamless Shapechanger so he adds gets to use his Seamless Disguise bonus while shape-changed can get truly absurd disguise skill checks.
Let's see, the theoretical total is...
+10 racial
+10 polymorph
+20 seamless disguise
+10 favored class bonus
+20 skill points
+3 class skill
+6 skill focus (for absurdity)
+1 for average kitsune charisma mod
For a total of a +80 bonus to disguise. If he rolls a 20, he gets a disguise skill check of 100. He won't detect as magical by the way, you need true seeing to see past the disguise. A level 20 kitsune vigilante with the realistic likeness feat could pretend to be your best friend, one of your parents, and your spouse all in the same day and you'd never suspect a thing.
Not sure where you're getting the ability to not ping as magical from, but True Seeing isn't the only spell you have to worry about, since Change Shape functions like Alter Self, although True Seeing will be the most common thing to encounter.
Not sure where you're getting the ability to not ping as magical from, but True Seeing isn't the only spell you have to worry about, since Change Shape functions like Alter Self, although True Seeing will be the most common thing to encounter.Amusing fact: the kitsune vigilante favored class bonus is +1/2 to the disguise bonus from seamless guise. A high level kitsune who combines that with Seamless Shapechanger so he adds gets to use his Seamless Disguise bonus while shape-changed can get truly absurd disguise skill checks.
Let's see, the theoretical total is...
+10 racial
+10 polymorph
+20 seamless disguise
+10 favored class bonus
+20 skill points
+3 class skill
+6 skill focus (for absurdity)
+1 for average kitsune charisma mod
For a total of a +80 bonus to disguise. If he rolls a 20, he gets a disguise skill check of 100. He won't detect as magical by the way, you need true seeing to see past the disguise. A level 20 kitsune vigilante with the realistic likeness feat could pretend to be your best friend, one of your parents, and your spouse all in the same day and you'd never suspect a thing.
Whether or not a supernatural ability detects as magical is a bit unknown in pathfinder because (unless I am mistaken) we no longer have 3.5's rule that states what a supernatural ability's caster level is. Also, neither 3.5 nor pathfinder says that supernatural abilities have spell levels. That makes detecting them with detect magic and a lot of other spells difficult, since they are based upon measuring spell level and/or caster level.
Of course, this might just be me reading the rules too literally... and also my wishful thinking that picking a kitsune out of a crowd shouldn't be trivial. I just figure that since supernatural abilities can't be dispelled (THAT is in the rules at least) that they shouldn't detect as magical either.
EDIT: Oh right, I just remembered the real reason why I believe supernatural abilities are missed by detect magic. The auras chart only lists spells and magical items as generating an aura. Supernatural abilities are neither of those.
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Until then, let us know how you want them to look, I guess.As someone who is super-excited for future catfolk content, I'd much, much prefer for the Bestiary 3 art to be the standard. ^_^
And I on otherhand prefer them to look less like catgirls(geez right back to discussing this topic huh xD) <_< I'm in general in favor of less anthropomorphism when it comes to beast like races. Ya know, for races to be enough different that if you only see silhouette you could just and move that they aren't human.
AND to note on everyone saying "I'd like Thundercats catfolk", we already had example of that and it looked dumb. I unfortunately can only find miniature instead of the art though
And yeah, I agree with conclusion that a lot of stuff people gush about Bestiary 3's catfolk is just Eade's own style so if someone tried mimicking looks of that catfolk without her artstyle, it wouldn't' really look same at all.
I have to say that the kitsune got a lot of good options in this one especially the alternate racial traits. The Nagaji got bloodrager and sorcerer naga bloodlines and the form of the naga based spells. But the catfolk didn't get anything I liked at all even their shaman archetype doesn't give them a cha based caster option.
