How optimized can you make a Samurai?

Yesterday I posted about how I struggle unpacking certain classes from the thematic baggage, well I seem to have found an angle that I can get behind with the Samurai.

So out of curiosity

What is the most optimal DPR build for the Samurai?

Order of the Star looked pretty good, as did the Warrior Poet with their half class level added to damage (Spring Attack is meh).

What do you think? How would you build a mid level Samurai?

Warrior Poet has its own archetype and the synergy is good.

I don't think I would build a samurai for "incredible damage" but that doesn't mean the class is bad. The question I would ask myself if I was building a samurai is "do I want to be tanky, or mobile?"

For the tanky samurai, I'd go with something like:
Human, Order of the Eastern Star (Bonus feats are in parentheses)-

Level 1. (Psychic Sensitivity), (Improved Unarmed Strike), Dodge, Weapon Finesse
Level 3. (Two-Weapon Fighting), Crane Style
Level 5. Crane Wing
Level 6. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 7. Chain Challenge
Level 9. Crane Riposte

Buy a wakizashi, some handwraps, and fight defensively all the time. You do respectable damage with your challenge and the number of attacks you can make, but your defenses are considerable.

If you're willing to dip into fighter then as Wonderstell points out, the ironbound sword samurai archetype will progress weapon and armor training (Her samurai levels count as fighter levels and stack with fighter levels for the purposes of fighter and samurai prerequisites and class features.) while still having the samurai class features. Basically any fighter build should work with that.

If you're not willing to dip then ironbound sword is nothing special. I suspect a brawling blademaster might have the highest DPR then, they have a couple of advantages with TWF.

samurai and DPR is not... something that works.

Here is my favorite samurai "tank"-

unconquerable resolve

Human samurai, order of the ronin-

Stats: (25pt buy)

Str: 16+2
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 08
Wis: 14
Cha: 12

Feats-
1- unconquerable resolve, power attack
3- unconquerable resolve
5- unconquerable resolve
6- Free feat for whatever, weapon focus, combat reflexes, Furious focus, chain challenge etc.
7- unconquerable resolve
9- Iron will.

you are now at level 9, able to-
roll twice on a fort or will save and take the better result, which gives you 36 Temp hp. (40, if you take unconquerable resolve at 9, but I prefer the bump to will saves)
reroll a failed will saving throw the round after for free
remove/suppress: fatigued, shaken, sickened, exhausted, frightened, nauseated, or staggered AND negate critical hits against you.

you can take this chassis, and add a two-handed build to it and be super hard to remove/debuff while still dealing decent damage. Could also take the yojimbo archetype for armor training (and so advanced armor training feats)

Warrior Poet, Order of the Eastern Star.

Charisma to AC, Dodge Bonus, DR/-, high mobility, Weapon Finesse with reach weapons, Spring Attack with reach weapons...

Dips to consider: Scaled Fist Monk (but it brings alignment restrictions), Paladin (also alignment restrictions), Bloodrager, Swashbuckler (probably Arrow Champion), Ninja...

Warrior Poet, Order of the Eastern Star.

Charisma to AC, Dodge Bonus, DR/-, high mobility, Weapon Finesse with reach weapons, Spring Attack with reach weapons...

Is the Order of the Eastern Star really worth it if the Warrior Poet is giving up their mount (Level 15 ability)?

Is the Vital Strike+Spring Attack good? or is it a trap?

What is the most optimal DPR build for the Samurai?

Order of the Star looked pretty good, as did the Warrior Poet with their half class level added to damage (Spring Attack is meh).

Is the Vital Strike+Spring Attack good? or is it a trap?

Half your level to damage at all times sounds good at paper, but since it only works when you add Str to dmg and Dex to Attack it won't overtake a normal Str build. The archetype pushes you to a two-handed playstyle so every point of Str modifier would have given you an extra 1.5 damage.

If you started out with 18Dex/14Str, you'd need six levels of Warrior Poet to deal equal damage to someone who had started out with 14Dex/18Str. At level 8 we can assume a +2 Belt and two points of ABI (for a total of 22 Str), so the Warrior Poet would need twelve levels to deal equal damage.

Furthermore, as the Warrior Poet is pushed into a Dex build the benefit of Vital Strike is very diminished. You won't get to use the most suited weapons for such shenanigans (two-handed improvised or Butchering Axe), and Enlarge Person inflicts a -2 attack penalty.

Further-furthermore, the damage from your challenge only applies once per round. So any full-attacking Samurai would deal more damage than the Warrior Poet.

Building samurai for damage is just like any other fighter: high strength with a two handed weapon.
power attack, weapon focus, weapon specialization, improved critical, greater weapon focus, greater weapon specialization
Choose Naginata or Katana. For naginata combat reflexes. For katana critical focus & crit feats.

You'll be slightly behind the fighter since you lack weapon training, but that's only +1/5 levels. You make up for it with challenge which is a much larger damage bonus, but only a few times per day.

I prefer the Warrior Poet to go into Improved/Greater Spring Attack than Vital Strike. The real draw for the archetype for me though is "Petals on the Wind" with a reach weapon can be quite silly.

It's not a DPR build, but since "Kitsune's Mystique" gets you free feint attempts when you move/spring attack, a fun build is togo into the Devoted Muse PRC so you can debuff. You'll also get Cha to AC (up to class level) twice (dodge bonuses explicitly stack with each other.)

The Brawling Blademaster (Samurai) 4, Bounty Hunter Slayer 2

Quick Dirty Trick, Improved Dirty Trick, Dirty Fighting, Enforcer
Kitsune Style->Tricks->Vengeance

I prefer the Warrior Poet to go into Improved/Greater Spring Attack than Vital Strike. The real draw for the archetype for me though is "Petals on the Wind" with a reach weapon can be quite silly.

The main reason I mention Vital Strike is because of Chrysanthemum’s Blooming which allows Vital Strike as part of a Spring Attack

The real draw for the archetype for me though is "Petals on the Wind" with a reach weapon can be quite silly.

Add on Lunge and you have some serious zone control.

This is what I was thinking at the moment

Feats:
1 (Level) - Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Fauchard)
1 (Human) - Power Attack
1 (Class) - Weapon Finesse
3 (Level) - Combat Reflexes
5 (Level) -
6 (Class) - Spring Attack
7 (Level) - Lunge
9 (Level) - Improved Critical
11 (Level) -
12 (Class) - Improved Spring Attack
13 (Level) - Seize the Opportunity
15 (Level) - Improved Vital Strike
17 (Level) -
18 (Class) - Greater Spring Attack

Flourish
1 - Petals on the Wind
3 - Kitsune’s Mystique
5 - Uncanny Guidance
9 - Uncanny Guidance
13 - Chrysanthemum’s Blooming
17 -
20 -

How are you finessing the fauchard? Warrior Poet gives you weapon finesse with glaives, but glaives are not fauchards and fauchards are not light weapons. Effortless lace doesn't work with two handed weapons either.

The only way I know of to finesse a fauchard is Bladed Brush + Martial Versatility.

How are you finessing the fauchard? Warrior Poet gives you weapon finesse with glaives, but glaives are not fauchards and fauchards are not light weapons. Effortless lace doesn't work with two handed weapons either.

The only way I know of to finesse a fauchard is Bladed Brush + Martial Versatility.

I could have sworn it worked, good catch. Back to square one then

Feats:
1 (Level) - Unconquerable Resolve
1 (Human) - Power Attack
1 (Class) - Weapon Finesse
3 (Level) - Combat Reflexes
5 (Level) - Unconquerable Resolve
6 (Class) - Spring Attack
7 (Level) - Lunge
9 (Level) - Unconquerable Resolve
11 (Level) - Unconquerable Resolve
12 (Class) - Improved Spring Attack
13 (Level) - Seize the Opportunity
15 (Level) - Improved Vital Strike
17 (Level) -
18 (Class) - Greater Spring Attack

Flourish
1 - Petals on the Wind
3 - Kitsune’s Mystique
5 - Uncanny Guidance
9 - Uncanny Guidance
13 - Chrysanthemum’s Blooming
17 -
20 -

If seize the opportunity is actually the seize the moment teamwork feat, that requires improved critical as a feat (which you had in the last version but not now). If it's something else I dunno.

Gonna look at this build closer in a bit but three things lunge out at me (pun intended):

Lunge doesn't work with Petals on the Wind. You choose to lunge on your turn and it lasts until the end of your turn. (There are a few things that could trigger an AoO on your turn, but it doesn't look like you are focusing in on them.)

What the heck is Uncanny Guidance? Did you mean Jininsiel’s Guidance?

If you're building for DPR, Unconquerable Resolve is not your best choice.

If seize the opportunity is actually the seize the moment teamwork feat, that requires improved critical as a feat (which you had in the last version but not now). If it's something else I dunno.

A mistake, I meant to delete it. I didn't realize seize the opportunity was a Path of War feat

Gonna look at this build closer in a bit but three things lunge out at me (pun intended):

Lunge doesn't work with Petals on the Wind. You choose to lunge on your turn and it lasts until the end of your turn. (There are a few things that could trigger an AoO on your turn, but it doesn't look like you are focusing in on them.)

You Lunge to attack on your turn at 15ft, then they have to move 10ft on their turn to attack you, triggering an AoO, rather than attack at 10ft, and then they 5ft in.

What the heck is Uncanny Guidance? Did you mean Jininsiel’s Guidance?

Yes, it is what it is called on D20

If you're building for DPR, Unconquerable Resolve is not your best choice.

Okay, I'm just trying to build the most optimized Samurai and honestly have no idea on which way to take it hence why my builds are still unfocused and all over the place

As Voltaire once said, define your terms...

What is the optimal role of a Samurai in your opinion?

In the aftermarket automotive world, we say there's cheap, there's fast, and there's reliable... you can only have two. If it's cheap and fast, it ain't reliable. If it's fast and reliable, it ain't cheap.

So, if you are looking for DPR, then Warrior Poet is not it. So don't ruin a perfectly decent Warrior Poet building for damage output. Warrior Poet is about mobility, and should be built for mobility. Battlefield control is easy to incorporate because mobility allows access to large portions of the battlefield. You can Trip on a Spring Attack, Ha-Ha, that guy is out of fight this round... and Trip you, and you, and you... at later levels. Or whatever you choose, Warrior Poet is still not a DPR archetype.

For damages maximum, you should probably find the Challenge/Order that fits your ideal Samurai image, and pick an archetype that caters to that Challenge/Order abilities...

As Voltaire once said, define your terms...

What is the optimal role of a Samurai in your opinion?

The truth is I don't know

Do you have a preferred martial method?

Are you going out of your way to try something new?

When someone says the word "Samurai", what pops into your head?

What are samurai good at? They're tough. Resolve and unconquerable resolve make them hard to put down. They have a couple of decent weapon proficiencies for TWF, the katana and wakizashi, plus all martial weapons. Some archetypes just have light armour but the base has heavy available plus shields. And of course the base samurai has a mount, though with no spells and few class abilities which can boost it (some orders do).

Your warrior poet uses resolve and reach effectively. It's a solid character. I'm not sure which order it's using, order of the songbird is the one made for warrior poet but there's mention of the eastern star above. Anyway, is it the most optimal samurai? It depends entirely on what you're optimising it for - not DPR certainly but it's OK at that and it will be mobile and tough.

Belafon wrote:

Gonna look at this build closer in a bit but three things lunge out at me (pun intended):

Lunge doesn't work with Petals on the Wind. You choose to lunge on your turn and it lasts until the end of your turn. (There are a few things that could trigger an AoO on your turn, but it doesn't look like you are focusing in on them.)

You Lunge to attack on your turn at 15ft, then they have to move 10ft on their turn to attack you, triggering an AoO, rather than attack at 10ft, and then they 5ft in.

Got it. So, typical reach build trick rather than something you are trying to do specifically with this archetype.

The “typical” build for a full Warrior Poet (as opposed to a dip or entry into Devoted Muse) is to focus on Spring-Attacking (eventually with multiple targets and Improved Vital Strike) rather than full-attacking. End in a position that forces enemies to take move actions. Use Petals on the Wind to position yourself so the next enemy also has to take a move action. Lunge isn’t useless but it isn’t really necessary.

Trip builds are very common as well (often doing both/either Vital Strike or tripping depending on the enemies faced).

I'm not sure which order

I was looking at Order of the Star

Are you planning on multiclassing Cleric and/or Paladin? I thought that was the big draw of Order of the Star...

It's not a bad plan, overall. One level of Crusader can get you Weapon Focus (in your deity's favored weapon, so choose accordingly) or Shield Focus for Unhindering Shield later, Channel that will scale with your Samurai levels, and help your pathetic Will save. Two levels of Paladin gets you Divine Grace, Lay on Hands that will scale with your Samurai levels, and help your pathetic Will save.

Are you planning on multiclassing Cleric and/or Paladin? I thought that was the big draw of Order of the Star...

No I would prefer not to do any multiclassing

Star isn't bad, but I think Songbird is better for you. Among other things if you use lunge on your challenged target you'll be 15' away and lose the challenge save bonus from star. Songbird only applies vs. the target, but it always applies against them, and you get an AC bonus.

RACE: Dual Talent Human

STATS

STR: 14+2
DEX: 15+2 (All AI goes here)
CON: 13
INT: 10
WIS: 10
CHA: 16

WEAPON: Naginata

Feats:
1 (Level) - Power Attack
1 (Class) - Weapon Finesse
3 (Level) - Combat Reflexes
3 (Class) - Improved Feint*
5 (Level) -
6 (Class) - Spring Attack
7 (Level) - Lunge
9 (Level) -
11 (Level) - Pin down
12 (Class) - Improved Spring Attack
13 (Level) -
13 (Class) - Vital Strike**
15 (Level) - Improved Vital Strike
17 (Level) -
18 (Class) - Greater Spring Attack

Flourish
1 - Petals on the Wind
3 - Kitsune’s Mystique*
5 - Jininsiel’s Guidance
9 - Jininsiel’s Guidance
13 - Chrysanthemum’s Blooming**
17 -
20 -

You could do the exact same thing with a Glaive... which would open up Flagbearer/Banner of Ancient Kings as an option. It helps your friends, gives you Improved Initative... just a thought...

Glaive is also better because you can take Bladed Brush: drop your str. to 13 and up your dex and/or con.

The grip adjustment lets you focus cash solely on your glaive as well.

Both of these questions are probably going to sound dumb

You could do the exact same thing with a Glaive... which would open up Flagbearer/Banner of Ancient Kings as an option. It helps your friends, gives you Improved Initative... just a thought...

Why doesn't flagbearer/Banner of the Ancient kings work with a Naginata?

Glaive is also better because you can take Bladed Brush: drop your str. to 13 and up your dex and/or con.

The grip adjustment lets you focus cash solely on your glaive as well.

Why is Bladed Brush decent? The deity requirement is a pain

Naginata is described as being too short to qualify for the Banner of Ancient Kings. I'm just being safe, in case the GM is playing tight to the rules.

Personally, as a GM, I would allow you to attach the Banner of Ancient Kings to a Naginata. I also allow the Fauchard to work with Bladed Brush, though, so I am an exception, not the rule. Seriously though, the first sentence describing the Fauchard says "Like a Glaive". Lol.

Viking Fighter 6 / Ironbound Sword Samurai 4

By using the dumb Merciful Combatant ability (mentioned here and by avr in this thread) we'll stack the levels of Fighter/Samurai for both of their class features.
We won't get any class features we haven't unlocked yet, but the bonus combat feats of a fighter aren't 11 separate class features but just the same one. So we'll continue getting bonus feats after we leave Fighter for Samurai.

We add our two class levels together to calculate the effect of the Fighter's
Bonus Feats, Fearsome, Shield Defense, Berserker, and Rage Powers

with the Samurai's
Challenge, Mount, Order, and Resolve

===

You're basically a lv 10 Barbarian without the Fast Movement, Trap Sense, Uncanny Dodge, or Damage Reduction class features. But in return you also have the Challenge, Mount, (uses of) Resolve, and Order abilities of a lv 10 Samurai.

Viking Fighter 6 / Ironbound Sword Samurai 4

By using the dumb Merciful Combatant ability (mentioned here and by avr in this thread) we'll stack the levels of Fighter/Samurai for both of their class features.
We won't get any class features we haven't unlocked yet, but the bonus combat feats of a fighter aren't 11 separate class features but just the same one. So we'll continue getting bonus feats after we leave Fighter for Samurai.

We add our two class levels together to calculate the effect of the Fighter's
Bonus Feats, Fearsome, Shield Defense, Berserker, and Rage Powers

with the Samurai's
Challenge, Mount, Order, and Resolve

===

You're basically a lv 10 Barbarian without the Fast Movement, Trap Sense, Uncanny Dodge, or Damage Reduction class features. But in return you also have the Challenge, Mount, (uses of) Resolve, and Order abilities of a lv 10 Samurai.

Stealing this...

Mutagen Warrior-Steelbound Fighter 7/Ironbound Sword Samurai X gives you an intelligent weapon and Mutagen/Discoveries. Lol.

What a silly thing to allow. I love it.

Mutagen Warrior-Steelbound Fighter 7/Ironbound Sword Samurai X gives you an intelligent weapon and Mutagen/Discoveries. Lol.

What a silly thing to allow. I love it.

Varisian Free Style Fighter 3/Ironbound Sword Samurai 17

Add full Brawler Martial Flexibility scaling and MoMS style feat stacking.
20 Samurai levels for tons of bonus feats and neat combinations.

RACE: Dual Talent Human

STATS

STR: 14+2
DEX: 15+2 (All AI goes here)
CON: 13
INT: 10
WIS: 10
CHA: 16

WEAPON: Naginata

Feats:
1 (Level) - Power Attack
1 (Class) - Weapon Finesse
3 (Level) - Combat Reflexes
3 (Class) - Improved Feint*
5 (Level) -
6 (Class) - Spring Attack
7 (Level) - Lunge
9 (Level) -
11 (Level) - Pin down
12 (Class) - Improved Spring Attack
13 (Level) -
13 (Class) - Vital Strike**
15 (Level) - Improved Vital Strike
17 (Level) -
18 (Class) - Greater Spring Attack

Flourish
1 - Petals on the Wind
3 - Kitsune’s Mystique*
5 - Jininsiel’s Guidance
9 - Jininsiel’s Guidance
13 - Chrysanthemum’s Blooming**
17 -
20 -

What do you think of trying to squeeze Outslug Sprint into the Warrior Poet

What do you think of trying to squeeze Outslug Sprint into the Warrior Poet

You'd be dropping the reach for more mobility, which you don't necessarily need given you're getting spring attack from the archetype. To make full use of it you'd want to get into TWF (close finesse weapons aren't 2H, you'll want to use two close weapons with outslug style) and I don't think you have the feats for both TWF and outslug unless you dip into fighter or something.

Shielded staff style might just be doable (it'd come fully online late) and could be fun.

How is this?

It does require worshiping Shelyn, but whatever.

I would use the Order of the Dragon, for the Aid Allies bonus to Aid Another to make better use of Combat Reflexes/Bodyguard. Pick up Flagbearer when I could afford the Banner of Ancient Kings to help the party, as well.

Feats:
1 (Level) - Weapon Focus (Glaive)
1 (Human) - Bladed Brush
1 (Class) - Weapon Finesse
3 (Level) - Combat Reflexes
5 (Level) - Slashing Grace
6 (Class) - Spring Attack
7 (Level) - Lunge
9 (Level) - Bodyguard
11 (Level) - Iron Will
12 (Class) - Improved Spring Attack
13 (Level) - Flagbearer
15 (Level) - Improved Vital Strike
17 (Level) - Deific Obedience (Shelyn)
18 (Class) - Greater Spring Attack

Flourish
1 - Petals on the Wind
3 - Kitsune’s Mystique
5 - Uncanny Guidance
9 - Uncanny Guidance
13 - Chrysanthemum’s Blooming
17 -
20 -

Leaving aside the debatable interactions, I'm not sure what even the most generous interpretations of Bladed Brush would actually add to this character.

You can use a move action to switch back and forth between reach and non-reach, but is there something else I am missing?

I think the core idea you are going for here is to take Slashing Grace, but this archetype doesn't want Slashing Grace. You only get the bonus damage from Graceful Strike when you are using Dex for attack and Strength for damage.

Here's an example "trip build" like those I was talking about.

A build that really focuses on this would probably multiclass to grab the tripping feats faster, but I wanted to show a single-class samurai.

The only benefit to bladed brush is that with the human feat "martial versatility" you can now finesse fauchards, which allows you go use graceful strike with the better weapon.

But I'm not sure that the extra bonus damage and higher threat range is worth 3 feats. On a warrior poet who is going into devoted muse, I would consider it though, since the devoted muse wants to crit.

By using the dumb Merciful Combatant ability (mentioned here and by avr in this thread) we'll stack the levels of Fighter/Samurai for both of their class features.

A side question, are there any other archetypes (Not just Fighter or Samurai) that get this weird double dip class feature?

Wow. Almost no one has mentioned the Ironbound Sword archetype on the Paizo boards. This appears really broken. Especially since something else occurs to me:

Bonus Feats is a fighter class ability.

There's a few prestige classes. Evangelist, chernasado warden, mortal usher; stargazer comes close. There's any number of archetypes which will stack levels for one class ability (ki pool, tactician, whatever) but I can't think of another archetype which stacks for all class abilities.

Wonderstell wrote:

By using the dumb Merciful Combatant ability (mentioned here and by avr in this thread) we'll stack the levels of Fighter/Samurai for both of their class features.

A side question, are there any other archetypes (Not just Fighter or Samurai) that get this weird double dip class feature?

Not like this. There’s quite a few archetypes that say something like “your class X levels count as and stack with fighter levels for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites.”

A side question, are there any other archetypes (Not just Fighter or Samurai) that get this weird double dip class feature?

I don't think so. As you can see it's an extremely exploitable class feature.

===

Wow. Almost no one has mentioned the Ironbound Sword archetype on the Paizo boards. This appears really broken. Especially since something else occurs to me:

Bonus Feats is a fighter class ability.

Yup. Just one level in fighter is enough for 11 bonus feats, which is very dumb. (Mentioned when I first brought it up)

I'm like 99% certain that people just gave the ability a quick lookover, decided that it couldn't possible say what it said, and missed it.

I know I did, as I think I was the one who reviewed it in the Archetype Tier Guide thread.

Minigiant wrote:

A side question, are there any other archetypes (Not just Fighter or Samurai) that get this weird double dip class feature?

I don't think so. As you can see it's an extremely exploitable class feature.

Quite! How many Unconquerable Resolves is that? You are looking at your level^2 temperorary hitpoints half your level times a day. What is that at level 20? 400 Temp HP ten times a day.

Yes it is an extreme skew build but it highlights the point perfectly as to how exploitable it is.

Now the question is, how exploitable can it be?

I have been looking to see if it was in some way from a combination of fighter & samurai archetypes and Cavalier orders if it was finally possible to get fully scaled martial flexibility and weapon training for a no compromise Iron Caster but I don't think it is possible.

I do like @PhD. Okkam idea of free-style fighter

The editing staff, if it exists at all, probably looked at it and said "meh, it's just Fighter and Samurai, let them gestalt... who cares?"