The editing staff, if it exists at all, probably looked at it and said "meh, it's just Fighter and Samurai, let them gestalt... who cares?"
And now it is our sacred duty to break it in the most spectacular fashion possible
Probably try stick to Fighter archetypes that go all the way by the 5th date... at most. Three being optimal.
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Not that bad compared to casters, druids, and oracles ...
the combination with the free-style fighter is probably the simplest and most diverse.
Probably try stick to Fighter archetypes that go all the way by the 5th date... at most. Three being optimal.
For a 5 level dip, Child of War for prepared 1/3rd Arcane casting might be worth it.
I'm torn though because I would love to see a class be broken without magic for once
5 levels of Steelbound Fighter/Ironbound Sword Samurai works well, too... something about those two titles just flows together. Thematically appropriate, but not by any means broken...
Ooh, Dragoon Fighter is a good one...
So, for DPR we have Brawling Blademaster. For mobilty we have Warrior Poet. And multiclass shenanigans goes to the Ironbound Sword.
Having played multiple big dumb fighter types... I have to say Warrior Poet is most appealing to me, personally.
If you take a 5 level dip into Fighter rather than the simpler 3, I think you will get more out of the Samurai class by stacking the Ward Speaker archetype with the Ironbound Sword one
Ward speaker is interesting but resolve is easier to use - it doesn't require a shrine or a kami. I don't think shrines are portable. To me ward speaker is a fascinating NPC archetype.
Has anyone tried the Brawling Blademaster? The issue I see is that the melee weapon... WILL get overshadowed by the unarmed strike damage, unless you take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Split-Blade Sword).
build-sketch:
Samurai (Ironbound Sword) 2/Varisian Free Style Fighter 3/Samurai 3+. Gets the class flavor in asap (Challenge, Resolve, Order), and then the level-stacking is useless until you have both Fighter.
Martial Flexibility scaling and MoMS style feat stacking.
Weapons: Wakizashi or Katana 18-20/x2. You'll want the option to have a free hand for combat maneuvers.
Feats: Power Attack, Dirty fighting. After that, you're free.
Order: Order of the Hammer: You get a free Grapple or Sunder check on every full attack, Chokehold lets you prevent spellcasters from speaking.
Perhaps there are ideas on the best options for orders for such a samurai? And style feats?
Has anyone tried the Brawling Blademaster? The issue I see is that the melee weapon... WILL get overshadowed by the unarmed strike damage, unless you take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Split-Blade Sword).
Sword-n-Fist is a problem from a monetary perspective. It the most expensive style of fighting unless you have access to Handwraps.
Sword-n-Fist is a problem from a monetary perspective. It the most expensive style of fighting unless you have access to Handwraps.
Handwraps were in the same book as the Brawling Blademaster, so it would be weird for a GM to say you can have one but not the other. It's not like either is remotely gamebreaking.
Like handwraps likely exist because of the brawling blademaster.
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Leaving aside the debatable interactions, I'm not sure what even the most generous interpretations of Bladed Brush would actually add to this character.
You can use a move action to switch back and forth between reach and non-reach, but is there something else I am missing?
I think the core idea you are going for here is to take Slashing Grace, but this archetype doesn't want Slashing Grace. You only get the bonus damage from Graceful Strike when you are using Dex for attack and Strength for damage.
Because graceful strike is an inferior option.
You start with at minimum a 16 dex (+3 damage) and by level 4 it’s probably 19 (+4). A more typical build probably starts higher.
Let’s take level 8. +4 damage from graceful or +6 or higher from bladed brush. Plus the grip thing.
Maybe at level 16 it evens out and you can refrain the feat.
Or maybe the two feats can be spent more effectively to boost to hit and damage?
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Leaving aside the debatable interactions, I'm not sure what even the most generous interpretations of Bladed Brush would actually add to this character.
You can use a move action to switch back and forth between reach and non-reach, but is there something else I am missing?
I think the core idea you are going for here is to take Slashing Grace, but this archetype doesn't want Slashing Grace. You only get the bonus damage from Graceful Strike when you are using Dex for attack and Strength for damage.
Because graceful strike is an inferior option.
You start with at minimum a 16 dex (+3 damage) and by level 4 it’s probably 19 (+4). A more typical build probably starts higher.
Let’s take level 8. +4 damage from graceful or +6 or higher from bladed brush. Plus the grip thing.Maybe at level 16 it evens out and you can refrain the feat.
Or maybe the two feats can be spent more effectively to boost to hit and damage?
Don't forget that Graceful Strike also adds 1-1/2x your strength modifier to damage. There's a very narrow range (maybe around levels 7-9) where Slashing Grace can be about equal. But other than that, it's going to be doing less.
5th level (when you get Slashing Grace)
SG - +5(Dex)
GS - +1(Str) + 6(Power Attack) + 6(Graceful Strike)
7th level (when the human SG build can pick up Power Attack)
SG - +6(Dex) + 4(PA)
GS - +1(Str) + 6(PA) + 3(GS)
9th level
SG - +8(Dex) + 6(PA)
GS - +1(Str) + 9(PA) + 4(GS)
That's assuming that the Graceful Striker has (and stays at) the bare minimum of Str for Power Attack (13). If he puts one more point in Strength, that's two more damage and there's no level at which SG does more.
There are definitely many Warrior Poet dips where Slashing Grace is useful (including using Warrior Poet as an entry into Devoted Muse) but Slashing Grace isn't helpful if you're planning to be a Warrior Poet your entire career.
Hand wraps are not PFS legal but brawling blade master is.
Makes about as much sense as anything else related to PFS. Lol.
They must really want people to waste their neck slot on the ridiculously expensive AoMF. Which is dumb, because it makes it so you cannot complete the set with the Bodywraps, Monk's Robes, and the Necklace of Ki Serenity...
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Hand wraps are not PFS legal but brawling blade master is.Makes about as much sense as anything else related to PFS. Lol.
They must really want people to waste their neck slot on the ridiculously expensive AoMF. Which is dumb, because it makes it so you cannot complete the set with the Bodywraps, Monk's Robes, and the Necklace of Ki Serenity...
This was actually a case of PFS recognizing something that slipped through the Paizo cracks. The reason it's not PFS legal is the fact that they let a monk do their normal unarmed strike damage.
1. Once upon a time the brass knuckles functioned the same way (let monks do their unarmed strike damage AND could be enchanted as a weapon).
2. Paizo errata'd the brass knuckles (way back in 2010!) to always do 1d3 damage. Now, we can argue all day about whether or not this was a good change, but the designers officially didn't want you to be able to enhance monk damage for the same price as a generic weapon.
3. Marital Arts handbook was released in 2018. Writer wasn't aware of the old version (and deliberate errata) of brass knuckles. So it's a perfectly reasonable idea to say "hey, how about this fun thing!" Not caught in development before publishing.
4. PFS review team says "hang on, this was deliberately errata'd away years ago." Handwraps not legal until errata.
5. Errata for handwraps. . . never happened (along with many other errata).
With the amount of Unconquerable Resolve feats we can take, would an All-consuming Swing build be decent?
@PossibleCabbage
The handwraps are rather great as they apply to both unarmed strikes, which means you can TWF with unarmed for the cost of just one weapon. Which is also the reason why if handwraps are allowed, it could be a better idea to just go unarmed for a Brawling Blademaster instead of paying for another weapon.
@Minigiant
Cleave is a rather feat-intensive build path so that might defeat the original idea. If you're fine with aiming for the mid-levels you could dip one level into Bard for the Song of Sarkoris Masterpiece. Then you go nude and hit enemies almost every time they damage you.
With the amount of Unconquerable Resolve feats we can take, would an All-consuming Swing build be decent?
Unfortunately you can only use resolve when you take some appropriate effect. If the giant doesn't try to intimidate you and hasn't yet hit you below 0 HP, you don't have temp HP. Added to cleave being a pain to set up, not a great idea IMO.
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With the amount of Unconquerable Resolve feats we can take, would an All-consuming Swing build be decent?Unfortunately you can only use resolve when you take some appropriate effect. If the giant doesn't try to intimidate you and hasn't yet hit you below 0 HP, you don't have temp HP. Added to cleave being a pain to set up, not a great idea IMO.
stay up the night before and just choose to fail the fort save, or sleep in your armor. You now are fatigued, and have the ability to spend resolve as you see fit. Heh.
build-sketch:
Samurai (Ironbound Sword) 2/Varisian Free Style Fighter 3/Samurai 3+. Gets the class flavor in asap (Challenge, Resolve, Order), and then the level-stacking is useless until you have both Fighter.
Martial Flexibility scaling and MoMS style feat stacking.Weapons: Wakizashi or Katana 18-20/x2. You'll want the option to have a free hand for combat maneuvers.
Feats: Power Attack, Dirty fighting. After that, you're free.
Order: Order of the Hammer: You get a free Grapple or Sunder check on every full attack, Chokehold lets you prevent spellcasters from speaking.
Perhaps there are ideas on the best options for orders for such a samurai? And style feats?
Stick-Fighting Maneuver for another free combat maneuver?
Could combine that with Spear Dancing Style for a weapon that has the following qualities; Double, Reach, Finesse, Tripping, Brace, Blocking, Distracting, and Performance
build-sketch:
Samurai (Ironbound Sword) 2/Varisian Free Style Fighter 3/Samurai 3+. Gets the class flavor in asap (Challenge, Resolve, Order), and then the level-stacking is useless until you have both Fighter.
Martial Flexibility scaling and MoMS style feat stacking.Weapons: Wakizashi or Katana 18-20/x2. You'll want the option to have a free hand for combat maneuvers.
Feats: Power Attack, Dirty fighting. After that, you're free.
Order: Order of the Hammer: You get a free Grapple or Sunder check on every full attack, Chokehold lets you prevent spellcasters from speaking.
Perhaps there are ideas on the best options for orders for such a samurai? And style feats?
I would try something like Crane for defense (probably just Crane Style though) and Janni Style for a lot of combat maneuver options (with Order of the Hammer, you get the option of Grapple, Sunder as free action against your challenged target, and a +4 bonus on bullrush and trip with Janni Tempest). Janni Rush would also synergize well with the improved unarmed strike dmg from Order the Hammer.
build-sketch:
Samurai (Ironbound Sword) 2/Varisian Free Style Fighter 3/Samurai 3+. Gets the class flavor in asap (Challenge, Resolve, Order), and then the level-stacking is useless until you have both Fighter.
Martial Flexibility scaling and MoMS style feat stacking.Weapons: Wakizashi or Katana 18-20/x2. You'll want the option to have a free hand for combat maneuvers.
Feats: Power Attack, Dirty fighting. After that, you're free.
Order: Order of the Hammer: You get a free Grapple or Sunder check on every full attack, Chokehold lets you prevent spellcasters from speaking.
Perhaps there are ideas on the best options for orders for such a samurai? And style feats?
Stick-Fighting Maneuver for another free combat maneuver?
Stick-Fighting Maneuver and Shielded Staff Ambush could grant you two extra free maneuvers
The feats for two styles and the weapon style mastery feat to combine them are not a samurai thing. Fighter, rogue or slayer - maybe a nature fang druid (or a Scott Wilhelm multiclass) - for that sort of luxury.
Which is also the reason why if handwraps are allowed, it could be a better idea to just go unarmed for a Brawling Blademaster instead of paying for another weapon.
You'd be giving up on Harmonious Flow without a manufactured weapon, which is honestly a pretty great ability.
The other alternative, of course, is to figure out what gauntlets are for your table and in case they are things you can enchant to enhance unarmed strikes (They might be! No one knows!), just have one magic punching glove.
The price of the AoMF is clearly what it is to handicap natural attack builds, not like "people who are TWFing normally."
The feats for two styles and the weapon style mastery feat to combine them are not a samurai thing. Fighter, rogue or slayer - maybe a nature fang druid (or a Scott Wilhelm multiclass) - for that sort of luxury.
Oh wait is that with the ironbound sword / fighter thing? OK, doable due to brokenness.
Order of the Hammer also allows decent use of Panther Parry, or a Trip build to get a bit more out of Viscious Stomp... in case you literally don't want to invest in unarmed strikes outside of free damages... albeit nonlethal.
It's a great Order for VMC on a Sap Master build. Lol.
The feats for two styles and the weapon style mastery feat to combine them are not a samurai thing. Fighter, rogue or slayer - maybe a nature fang druid (or a Scott Wilhelm multiclass) - for that sort of luxury.Oh wait is that with the ironbound sword / fighter thing? OK, doable due to brokenness.
Yeah, Freestyle Ironbound
The feats for two styles and the weapon style mastery feat to combine them are not a samurai thing. Fighter, rogue or slayer - maybe a nature fang druid (or a Scott Wilhelm multiclass) - for that sort of luxury.Oh wait is that with the ironbound sword / fighter thing? OK, doable due to brokenness.
Yes. Samurai (Ironbound Sword) 2/Varisian Free Style Fighter 3/Samurai 3+
Why doesn't a noble samurai go to Kaer Maga, learn a special fighting style?
Order of the Hammer also allows decent use of Panther Parry, or a Trip build to get a bit more out of Viscious Stomp... in case you literally don't want to invest in unarmed strikes outside of free damages... albeit nonlethal.
It's a great Order for VMC on a Sap Master build. Lol.
Order of the Hammer + improved Grapple + Throat Slicer
I'm just not sure what "Her samurai levels count as fighter levels and stack with fighter levels for the purposes of fighter and samurai ... class features" is supposed to do that's not unreasonable.
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You’re right that most home games would dismiss it but you can use it in PFS and the GM can’t really kick you from the table, as far as I can see.
This is going to be one of the nails in the coffin of 1st edition PFS. The root cause is the ending of Paizo/OPF support for 1st edition. As people find and use more of these unintended exploits and they aren't banned or errata'd there's going to be more and more splintering of groups and GMs as people stake out different positions of what is the "right" interpretation and there's no overall authority confirming the rules. Games may be reported as "Pathfinder Society" but the experience won't be as uniform as it used to be.
We'll end up with some GMs/locations where certain things aren't allowed (either explicitly or implicitly) and others where every exploit is fair game. If most other players start showing up to your games with characters that you feel are massively overpowered and don't want to join in, you're probably going to gradually stop playing. If you are a GM who wants to keep scenarios at least moderately challenging, you are going to not allow what you feel is a "clearly unintended" exploit. Which will turn off the players who do want to use such material.
Order of the Hammer very cool for Brawling Blademaster
I'm actually quite happy that PF1 is free of any future errata/FAQ... all they do is nerf $#!+, and ruin it for everyone.
As a GM, I would gladly encourage someone to play an Ironbound Sword Samurai with a few levels of their favorite fighter. Any time someone brings up Cavalier or Samurai at my table, I will immediately point them to the Ironbound Sword Samurai... specifically because of that ability.
I'm actually quite happy that PF1 is free of any future errata/FAQ... all they do is nerf $#!+, and ruin it for everyone.
As a GM, I would gladly encourage someone to play an Ironbound Sword Samurai with a few levels of their favorite fighter. Any time someone brings up Cavalier or Samurai at my table, I will immediately point them to the Ironbound Sword Samurai... specifically because of that ability.
I agree. So far all I can see is it just being a stronger martial. It does what a normal martial does just better. None of us I think have yet given a suggestion to make a game breaking character.
So take a level of barbarian so you can end your rage in order to spend resolve to get temp hp. Of course then you might as well just be an unchained bbn and get the temp hp from raging instead. Hmm, well maybe not such a great idea.
Viking Archetype gets us Rage...
So Ironbound Viking, Cleave+Vital Strike + All Consuming Swing
Viking to 4 or 6 will be the question.
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I agree. So far all I can see is it just being a stronger martial. It does what a normal martial does just better. None of us I think have yet given a suggestion to make a game breaking character.I'm actually quite happy that PF1 is free of any future errata/FAQ... all they do is nerf $#!+, and ruin it for everyone.
As a GM, I would gladly encourage someone to play an Ironbound Sword Samurai with a few levels of their favorite fighter. Any time someone brings up Cavalier or Samurai at my table, I will immediately point them to the Ironbound Sword Samurai... specifically because of that ability.
What it does is break the fighter. This is one of the few times that you can with no argument say it would be strictly better than the alternative. There’s no reason to play a monoclass fighter if you can do this. As always, your opinion on whether this is “too powerful” is going to depend on your personal views on classes and on the type of games you play. Heck, I’m sure someone reading this is thinking “you should never play a monoclass fighter anyway.”
From a game design perspective there is no way Paizo would deliberately make it utterly pointless to take levels in a core class past a certain level. It’s even more ridiculous to think it would be done in one sentence tacked on to the end of an unrelated ability of an archetype in a softcover book.
I think it's funny that you all agree that due to poor choice of wording, a certain special ability functions in a way that is clearly not intended and that you could not reasonably expect any GM would ever let a player get away with.
You make it sound like we're all misinterpreting the ability on purpose. If you can provide an explanation for what it "actually" says I'm all ears.
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Heck, I’m sure someone reading this is thinking “you should never play a monoclass fighter anyway.”
*slowly raises hand*
From a game design perspective there is no way Paizo would deliberately make it utterly pointless to take levels in a core class past a certain level. It’s even more ridiculous to think it would be done in one sentence tacked on to the end of an unrelated ability of an archetype in a softcover book.
Fully agree. The problem is that the ability actually is that busted and that there's no alternative interpretation possible. Like with Sacred Geometry or Planar Binding exploits, the only solution is to not allow it.
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I’m going to all out agree with everyone here.
Paizo should errata that thing and/or PFS should ban the archetype.
But it’s actually not going to ruin your play experience, I don’t think, even though it screws over the straight fighter.
Paizo won’t do it though. They’ll say that it is a waste of man-hours to write, layout and publish this errata.
Paizo won’t do it though. They’ll say that it is a waste of man-hours to write, layout and publish this errata.
I mean, they've literally moved on to a different game? Should the respected competition be asked to errata 4e stuff that's broken?
It's one archetype to an alternate class that allows you to essentially gestalt two martial classes, both only having one good save. The more class features crom Fighter that you unlock, the less class features of Samurai you will get to unlock. Seems fair, given it doesn't change the role of either class. Hardly worth errata/nerf/banning...
May as well pop a level of totem spiritualist on the iron bound samurai/fighter for a fully leveled phantom as well.
Let's get back to trying to break this thing
Is there any way of making the Determined Resolve faster than a standard action?
May as well pop a level of totem spiritualist on the iron bound samurai/fighter for a fully leveled phantom as well.
Doesn't the totem spiritualist stack with Druid not Fighter? Unless I am missing something
The mount class feature gives an effective druid level for a particular kind of animal companion, but I'm not sure that's enough - the totem spiritualist requires druid levels, the same thing only by implication.
Determined resolve? What's that? Edit: oh, the determined function under resolve? I don't think you can drop the action. It'd be easier to arrange a fort save to use the resolute function. That you can do as a move action with the right trait and a low-DC ingested poison, or with a handle animal check and a trained snake.