Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Bestiary 4 (OGL)

So, with the inclusion of Demon Lords (and possibly Devil Princes?), do you plan on doing the Empyreal Lords? Possibly in a future bestiary (#5?), and also, something along the lines of the Book of the Damned vol 1-3? Perhaps a Book of the Blessed, providing detail on unique Angels, Agathions and Azatas?

And (this is all me) the more non-evil outsiders, the happier I would be. Give more magical beasts, monstrous humanoids, plant creatures, fey, oozes, and other non-outsiders.

Sincubus, the Almiraj is a one horned rabbit in myth and if it is not a one horned rabbit in this book then it is not the Almiraj.

Some Empyreal Lords stats would be nice though I doubt it will be in this book. Maybe in the Mythic Rules book we will get something other then Demon Lords and Devil Princes.

Yeah but I have asking for the Cheshire Cat since the Bestiary 2 came out so I hope it makes it in this book.

Sincubus wrote:

...this forum also learned me about Lovecraft, never heard about that author on any european forum.

I don't doubt for a second that your only exposure to the Cthulhu Mythos has been through paizo.com, or that the forums you've visited have contained little or no discussion about the Cthulhu Mythos, but the works of H.P. Lovecraft has quite a following in Europe as well. Every gamer I've met during my 20-some years as a gamer has had some kind of interest in or knowledge of Cthulhu and his cosmic brethren. For many, the exposure to this horror subgenre has been through the Call of Cthulhu RPG released by Chaosium Inc (myself included), but for many others the Cthulhu Mythos has revealed itself to them directly through the writings of Mr Lovecraft and other writers.

So yeah, H.P. Lovecraft isn't just an American thing. Not in my experience, at least.

Edit:

I even got friends that has played Call of Cthulhu but haven’t played Pathfinder or any D&D.
I agree with Heine Stick, H.P. Lovecraft isn't just an American thing.

I recently took a tour through Europe. I saw a Lovecraft book at a gas station/convenience store in France (or possibly Italy, can't remember off the top of my head).

YOU ALL FORGOT ABOUT POLAND!!!!

No, we just waited for your reaction ;-)

Dragon78, what I meant with the Tome of horrors al-mi'raj being different from the real myth Al-Mi'raj.

The TOme of Horrors Almiraj is a grass eating peacefull unicorn blink bunny.

this is the real versions difference from the tome version:

Despite its docile appearance, Al-Mir'aj is actually a ferociously territorial predator known to be able to kill animals and people many times their own size with a few stabs of its horn. It also has an immense appetite and can devour other living things several times its size without effort. Al-Mir'aj frightens other animals and they will always flee from its presence due to this.

So pretty much EAT YOUR HEART OUT CR 1 blink bunny from D&D and Tome of Horrors.

So, with the inclusion of Demon Lords (and possibly Devil Princes?), do you plan on doing the Empyreal Lords? Possibly in a future bestiary (#5?), and also, something along the lines of the Book of the Damned vol 1-3? Perhaps a Book of the Blessed, providing detail on unique Angels, Agathions and Azatas?

No archdevils in this book. We'll get to them eventually. We didn't want to put TOO many unique powerful foes in here... well... MOST of us didn't.

Its cool that paizo is starting to stat up some of the Demon Lords. I guess Arch-Devils and Empyreal Lords will turn up later in other products.

Will the Platypus Familiar be included in this book? Or will it be a mix of all new Familiars and familiars from APs?

I would want the Almiraj at CR3-4 range because the idea of it being more powerful then a Griffon or Chimera is just weird to me.

Man it has been almost three years since we have gotten any new types of Proteans, Aeons, Inevitables, Angels, or Lamia.

I wouldn't flare up any hopes for more Proteans and Aeons - IIRC Todd Stewart said that the number of Protean variants is deliberately finite and limited to 3(4), while James did state that they are kind of moving away from Aeons and towards Psychopomps.

Iffy on the Almiraj. Last thing I need to hear are more Holy Grail quotes at the table. Right up there with "The Cake is a Lie", "...but I took an arrow to the knee!", and "Everypony" for "Things I Wish I Could Legally Strangle People for Saying In Public!" :D

I'm sure it'll be cool. Reminds me of a monster from Dragon Quest Monsters. Was a rabbit with a unicorn horn and I wouldn't be surprised if it was inspired by the Al-miraj.

Italian here and me, my friends and most of the people I know knows lovecraft and the chtulhu mythos, some of us even studied it at high school!

I would want the Almiraj at CR3-4 range because the idea of it being more powerful then a Griffon or Chimera is just weird to me.

Man it has been almost three years since we have gotten any new types of Proteans, Aeons, Inevitables, Angels, or Lamia.

Well there are already CR 1 bunnies called Skaders and Wolpertingers, I wish the Al-mi-raj actually is a very powerful bunny monster.

I love nothing more than creatures that are small but which are very powerfull. That's why LOVE the Quickling from D&D and Aurumvorax from pathfinder. If only Al-mi'raj, Kamaitachi and Ichneumon the dragon slayer mongoose could join that powerful-but-small heard I'd be happy.

And Griffons are mostly weak, early level enemies, so its not really hard to be more powerful than a griffon.

I'd like the Al-mi'raj to be CR 5 or 6.

I agree on more Proteans, one with magnetic and gravity powers would be fun, a Cupido angel would be fun, and a Lamia Empusa would be even more fun. I don't really care for more Aeons and Inevitables tho, if they turn up I hope to see some awesome variants.

Removed some posts and replies. Messageboard forums are not the place for name calling.

So let me get this strait that in a constantly changing infinite plane of Chaos and Discord that there can only be an even number of Proteans as in just four and can't be more?

Why in the world would they not make anymore Aeons?

I am not a fan of Psychopomps, just another outsider group that deals with mortal souls and we have those in spades.

So let me get this strait that in a constantly changing infinite plane of Chaos and Discord that there can only be an even number of Proteans as in just four and can't be more?

I wouldn't flare up any hopes for more Proteans and Aeons - IIRC Todd Stewart said that the number of Protean variants is deliberately finite and limited to 3(4), while James did state that they are kind of moving away from Aeons and towards Psychopomps.

I don't see anything in print that says there are only 4 protean lords. And the article on them in PF#22 describes three and names four more, so they're not limited to just 3–4.

I would love to see more proteans. I like the concept of agents of chaos and change and they'd fit well in my setting. I'm also a huge fan of psychopomps. Again, they fit in my setting really well and frankly, I just love them!

Why in the world would they not make anymore Aeons?

Possibly because the concept of aeons doesn't quite work with the vision the peeps at Paizo have for that particular alignment. I don't know if this is the case, but it's a possibility.

I am not a fan of Psychopomps, just another outsider group that deals with mortal souls and we have those in spades.

By that logic, we don't need yet another monster monster book. We already have more than 1,000 ways to kill our players' characters. Why do we need 300 more?

Yes, we already have a few groups of outsiders whose main shtick is the souls of mortals. That doesn't mean, however, that we can't have more. It's all HOW they interact with the souls of mortals, and where devils, demons, and daemons all wish to own, destroy, or devour, psychopomps have an entirely different agenda.

To me, psychopomps provide a cool angle to the whole concept of mortal souls. It's my impression that you disagree, and that's cool, but to argue against something just because another group of monsters focus on the same core theme, in this case souls, seems odd to me. Especially since the groups have very little, if nothing at all, in common other than their investment in mortal souls.

Please note that I'm not trying to tell you what you can and can't think is cool. I just found your argument gainst a subgroup of outsiders to be a bit odd, is all. :)

I've removed a few posts. Please keep on topic in the product discussion forum. (On Topic: discussing the myths behind monsters in this product. Off topic: debating whether presenting myths to children as truthful is bad parenting.)

I like the psychopomps and am glad they finally got into a bestiary...they are probably IMHO the best original outsider race that Paizo has created. That said, the Neutral alignment is probably the broadest of the alignments, and there is more than enough room for psychopomps, Aeons, and plenty of more outsider groups. I too hope for more Aeons...and more proteans as well.

Why in the world would they not make anymore Aeons?

I am not a fan of Psychopomps, just another outsider group that deals with mortal souls and we have those in spades.

Because the creative director and the editor in chief are more fond of psychopomps than they are of aeons... and those two are the ones who more or less came up with both races.

As for proteans... I can ABSOLUTELY see us doing more of them at some point, but not right now.

Speaking as myself—a fan and a customer:

I like Aeons, but I see a problem with them. They're fundamentally "Reality Cops". A good source of fun and adventure is when reality becomes distorted or messed up. That is a good high level (or mythic) PC problem. From a design standpoint, why would you give that problem away to a race of aloof and uncooperative NPC outsiders to fix?

Inevitables don't have that problem, because they make good NPCs in the same way proteans do. They can be extreme. They can be a PC obstacle.

But Aeons? Like I said, I love the concept—but in actual practice, they're a buzzkill. They don't add adventure easily, and in fact would serve to shut "cool adventures" down.

Aeons, to me, are like the cops at the very end of Monty Python and the Holy Grail. It is amusing to seem them arrest Arthur and his knights and cart them off to jail, but three seconds later the movie is over. Yeah, the fun is over, go home now.

"Reality Cop" may be a niche the game doesn't need to spend a whole lot of time on.

Edit: I can see a crazy Aeon being an interesting NPC, but if you have to make them crazy in order to be fun, there's something missing from the core concept.

******************

I loved psychopomps ever since Stephan King's "The Dark Half".

Because the creative director and the editor in chief are more fond of psychopomps than they are of aeons... and those two are the ones who more or less came up with both races.

As for proteans... I can ABSOLUTELY see us doing more of them at some point, but not right now.

And I'm VERY glad they did....aeons never did anything for me...

I'd imagine that an aeon would be better used as a red herring, or a deus ex machina situation.

Speaking as myself—a fan and a customer:

I like Aeons, but I see a problem with them. They're fundamentally "Reality Cops". A good source of fun and adventure is when reality becomes distorted or messed up. That is a good high level (or mythic) PC problem. From a design standpoint, why would you give that problem away to a race of aloof and uncooperative NPC outsiders to fix?

Inevitables don't have that problem, because they make good NPCs in the same way proteans do. They can be extreme. They can be a PC obstacle.

But Aeons? Like I said, I love the concept—but in actual practice, they're a buzzkill. They don't add adventure easily, and in fact would serve to shut "cool adventures" down.

Aeons, to me, are like the cops at the very end of Monty Python and the Holy Grail. It is amusing to seem them arrest Arthur and his knights and cart them off to jail, but three seconds later the movie is over. Yeah, the fun is over, go home now.

"Reality Cop" may be a niche the game doesn't need to spend a whole lot of time on.

Edit: I can see a crazy Aeon being an interesting NPC, but if you have to make them crazy in order to be fun, there's something missing from the core concept.

******************

I loved psychopomps ever since Stephan King's "The Dark Half".

I prefer Inevitables as Reality Cops anyway.

The problem with aeons is that they don't really have any solid motivation behind them. Inevitables are the Judge Dredd "we are here because ORDER and LAW are ultimate" shtick, easy enough, legal positivism taken to the exxxtreme, Bentham, Austin and Hart rejoice. But aeons? What floats their boats? OK, they're here to ensure that there's equal amount of cherry coke and vanilla coke in the multiverse but WHY? To what end?

Italian here and me, my friends and most of the people I know knows lovecraft and the chtulhu mythos, some of us even studied it at high school!

Bienvenuto! Da dove sei lei e tuo amici?

I prefer Inevitables as Reality Cops anyway.

As do I, really. I think aeons do look neat though. There's just not a lot of good adventure hooks there.

There is no "problem" with Aeons, your not supposed to understand there motivations, they do not think like mortal life, they are not bound by mortal concerns. They have to maintain the balance between opposing forces like good and evil, order and chaos. Besides they make good allies and enemies, maybe in the same adventure. You also never know were they might turn up.

While I am not saying Psychopomps should never be in a bestiary, I still have no real use for them. Hey Bob your character is dead and your friends are taking too long to resurrect you so these guys are here to "collect".

I actually think, as a race, that Aeons actually would be considered insane by mortal standards. They are so devoted to balance that they are beyond such lesser concerns as chaos, order, good, and evil.

An Aeon could make an effective enemy. Imagine Aeons coming in and knocking over a nation because it was too "peaceful". Or barging in and slaughtering people en mass, because there wasn't enough death. Or even goals more esoteric. I could also see one functioning as an NPC that the PC has to negotiate with, and which might send the party on a weird mission that the group doesn't understand.

I haven't had a chance to use an Aeon in a campaign, but if I had an NPC Aeon I would probably play it like the Weaver from Perdido street station.

Besides, like I said I like Psychopomps, but outside of Pharasmin and a small group of other people who either spent there life looking after others or were just morbid, it seems an odd fate for a petitioner to end up as if they were true neutral.

There is no "problem" with Aeons

Then I am happy they exist in the Core Rules for you to enjoy!

..your not supposed to understand there motivations, they do not think like mortal life, they are not bound by mortal concerns. They have to maintain the balance between opposing forces like good and evil, order and chaos. Besides they make good allies and enemies, maybe in the same adventure. You also never know were they might turn up.

Oh, but I do think I understand them! In an abstract sense. You'll have to take my word for it, because I am me. I know how I think. I have been something of an expert on me for some years now. Odd kind of hobby, I know. :)

All joking aside, I get what you're saying. There is something to Aeons that could be turned into a fine adventure. A creative mind, such as yours and mine, could come up with fine some adventure hooks if we really wanted. Does sound that fair?

I actually think, as a race, that Aeons actually would be considered insane by mortal standards. They are so devoted to balance that they are beyond such lesser concerns as chaos, order, good, and evil.

Oh yeah, I get that. I agree.

An Aeon could make an effective enemy. Imagine Aeons coming in and knocking over a nation because it was too "peaceful". Or barging in and slaughtering people en mass, because there wasn't enough death. Or even goals more esoteric. I could also see one functioning as an NPC that the PC has to negotiate with, and which might send the party on a weird mission that the group doesn't understand.

But... jeeez... That sounds like a hybrid of a protean and an inevitable that just can't make up it's mind. I prefer to have two races push and pull in cosmological opposition, rather than introduce a third group that arbitrarily goes back and forth and intrudes on the niche of either.

That balance is what arises out of the tension between proteans and inevitables.

But still, I think they look cool and I'm glad they're in the core rules for people to enjoy.

Iffy on the Almiraj. Last thing I need to hear are more Holy Grail quotes at the table. Right up there with "The Cake is a Lie", "...but I took an arrow to the knee!", and "Everypony" for "Things I Wish I Could Legally Strangle People for Saying In Public!" :D

I'm sure it'll be cool. Reminds me of a monster from Dragon Quest Monsters. Was a rabbit with a unicorn horn and I wouldn't be surprised if it was inspired by the Al-miraj.

It absolutely is -- in the Japanese and early English versions of various Dragon Quest games (Monsters or not), that "bunicorn" is in fact named "almiraj."

My problem with Psychopomps is that to me, they are the "We hate undead!" outsiders. Angels hate undead too. *Shrug* I guess the difference is that Psychopomps are a bit more morbid and a bit less good but I think for a Neutral Outsider race to focus on undead entirely... there's something off about it to me. I like Aeons as THE Neutral outsiders of the cosmology and accept that a powerful god such as Pharasma made her own outsider race.

Aeons = THE Neutral Outsider race
Psychopomps = A Neutral Outsider race.

just like

Devils = THE Lawful Evil Outsider race
Kytons = A Lawful Evil Outsider race.

Not to say that I hate Psychopomps or Kytons, I just don't like the idea of Psychopomp being the main neutral outsider race.

If that makes any sense.

Psychopomps don't focus just on undead. They focus on death, the fate of souls, fairness of their judgement, their transit to destination etc. Those psychopomps who go after undead do so not because undead are evil, but because they are a disruption of the flow of death in the multiverse. A non-evil ghost or *shudder* good lich *shudder* is for them an abomination of the same order as an evil wight or nightshade. Whereas angels go after undead because they're Team Evil, and are likely more or less fine with an occasional ghost or non-evil walking corpse.

I'm happy now! I never cared for or liked the Aeons at all, they were pretty much the worst thing for me in bestiary 2, they were pretty much 6 pages of fast-skipping.

I'm not a huge fan of Psychopomps eighter, but at least I like some of their designs like the Keres.

What would Argus look like? What would it be? Aberration, titan, giant, mythic? So curious!

I actually think, as a race, that Aeons actually would be considered insane by mortal standards. They are so devoted to balance that they are beyond such lesser concerns as chaos, order, good, and evil.

An Aeon could make an effective enemy. Imagine Aeons coming in and knocking over a nation because it was too "peaceful". Or barging in and slaughtering people en mass, because there wasn't enough death. Or even goals more esoteric. I could also see one functioning as an NPC that the PC has to negotiate with, and which might send the party on a weird mission that the group doesn't understand.

I haven't had a chance to use an Aeon in a campaign, but if I had an NPC Aeon I would probably play it like the Weaver from Perdido street station.

Besides, like I said I like Psychopomps, but outside of Pharasmin and a small group of other people who either spent there life looking after others or were just morbid, it seems an odd fate for a petitioner to end up as if they were true neutral.

City watches in confusion as an aeon replaces every 42nd cobblestone with a live turtle.

I like Aeons, but I personally think that the problem with them is that it is rather difficult for the PCs to encounter one as an enemy and NOT feel like they're the villains. Aeons are basically devoted to keeping the status quo, and when a non-Evil outsider race comes to hunt you down, you feel like you're doing something wrong.

Its sort of coupled with the "Neutrality can't have nice things" problem, where Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos get TONS of spells and even Cleric domains devoted to them, and Neutrality gets nothing. Its not like there is a "Summon Aeon" spell or anything, because there's not even a Neutral descriptor to go with it.

So I'm sure that a race like the Psychopomps is much easier to design for. They have clear motivations and an entire theme to focus them behind. Being soul-carrying denizens of the Outer Planes is MUCH easier to quantify than being an absolute embodiment of Neutrality. Because what it means to be Neutral is not solidified in the game mechanics in the same way that the other alignments are.

Maybe spawn Lesser and Greater brothers of Chaugnar Faugn should be in it? Or the Wyvarans, Trox, and Kasatha? Hmm various kaiju would be fun like a kaiju template and a sampling of them like a giant sea turtle maybe.:)

goldomark wrote:

Cthulhu!? Mythic I see.

Will Kaiju also use mythic or have their own set of rules. I remember reading James saying that Kaijus need their own (long) subsystem.

It's a bit early to give away the whole farm.

Patience. You'll see. :)

Okay, but could we get the Zombie Lord template in this book?

I'm torn on Aeons... I love the way they look, absolutely. But, they remind me too much of the Mordenkainen True Neutral stance of "good/evil can never hold power over evil/good" type of balance. To me, that never made sense and the aeons kind of reek of it. Still, they look really super cool and I even like the idea of the Monad. Shame to see no more aeons though. I think I'd rather have them as beings that had transcended things like morality and are more cosmic concepts, instead of the Reality Police, as Groves puts it.

But in any case, mythic creatures still work with all the Pathfinder core assumptions and can be used in non-mythic games.

This. This appeals to me GREATLY! Thank you. :D

While I prefer Psychopomops, I'd love to see Aeons really bloom.

I have to admit though, I hope their aesthetics get expanded and veer towards something more alien than gaseous phenomenon with Trogdor arms.

Aeons. I'd like more of them. But I can understand how they'd be difficult to work up.

"With enemies you know where you stand, but with Neutrals?" -- Zapp Brannigan

My problem with Psychopomps is that to me, they are the "We hate undead!" outsiders.

Mine is the name. I struggle to take them seriously.

Yeah I agree Steve Geddes, the name Psychopomps does sound silly. Also Norgorber does as well but that is a different subject all together.

If the problem with the Aeon is only flavor text then maybe they will change it or rewrite them to make them "work". Also we have only seen flavor text in the bestiary which is world neutral, we haven't seen anything for them that is Golarion specific.

But since there isn't going to be any Aeons in this book I think it is time to focus on what might actually be in this book.

I for one in very curious about the new playable races, familiars, Tanes(if any), outer dragons(and other dragons), fey, giants, Kaiju, and what outsider groups made it in this time.

I hope there will be a lot more non-fungus/mold based plants this time and some much needed elementals.

I really hope some creatures from the positive energy plane, dimension of dreams, and the dimension of time made it in as well.

I can't wait see what lovecraftian, classic literature, and pulp style monsters mad it in.

I am sure we get at least some cryptids as well.

I wonder if the Bodysnatcher is the only movie inspired creature in the book.

I hope we get more non-humanoid undead.

I also can't wait to see what creatures from myth made it in as well.

Finally I would like to see what creatures from the APs(and other books) made the cut this time.