RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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So after finally getting my hands on this, I must say I'm very happy with the content. I think the authors did a great job of making each of the skinwalker lineages feel special, while also having good options available for the non-lineage skinwalker.
However, one thing that I feel is severely lacking from this book is alternate favored class options! Every other race which has its own book or was featured in Advanced Race Guide has gotten them, why not these guys??!!?!
I would really strongly request that you make a small web supplement for this (just post it on the blog) that includes alternate favored class options for standard skinwalkers and the lineage versions.
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Paizo site has it listed as available to order. Paizo's policy is when you can purchase it form them you can purchase it from your local store.
Unless your local store is overseas.
I really need to get over this, but the wound opens again with every release.
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Am I crazy or do skinwalkers seem under-powered compared to a lot of other races? Getting only one aspect three times per day along with a +2 ability score (and the bear doesn't get stronger when changed?)? Sure, you can burn a bunch of feats to get the others but they aren't even that good, frankly. In all sincerity, I'd be happy if someone could explain to me how I am wrong about that because I want to like them.
I have got to say its got one of the sauciest pictures of Kyra in it.
Am I crazy or do skinwalkers seem under-powered compared to a lot of other races? Getting only one aspect three times per day along with a +2 ability score (and the bear doesn't get stronger when changed?)? Sure, you can burn a bunch of feats to get the others but they aren't even that good, frankly. In all sincerity, I'd be happy if someone could explain to me how I am wrong about that because I want to like them.
Some of the skinwalkers are very good at specific roles, but mostly because of some unique abilities that each type can get.
For example,Weretiger-kin make very good ninjas because of their see in darkness ability, along with feats that make it possible for them to almost always act in the surprise round. Wereshark-kin are great for aquatic campaigns with all their swimming abilities. Many of them would make excellent barbarians because they often have bonuses to Con....
In addition, each type of lycan-kin seems to have a special ability that is very uncommon for a player race. Climb and Swim speeds are common, and werewolf kin can get a +2 to all of their saves. Weretigerkin can get see in darkness and increased movement speed....
I'd say they are on par with other player races. They would be overpowered if they weren't reliant upon their shapeshifting.
Am I crazy or do skinwalkers seem under-powered compared to a lot of other races? Getting only one aspect three times per day along with a +2 ability score (and the bear doesn't get stronger when changed?)? Sure, you can burn a bunch of feats to get the others but they aren't even that good, frankly. In all sincerity, I'd be happy if someone could explain to me how I am wrong about that because I want to like them.
Player Companions should be about offering (viable) options - not must-have, nor insta-reject, options. I quite like what they have on offer. Unlike aasimar, they wouldn't see automatic use by most minmaxers if they would be included in PFS.
The skinwalkers have a tremendous cool vibe thing going for them, some great roleplaying potential, and some neat new tricks that you could build concepts around.
LoreKeeper I understand where you are coming from but you I don't think Paizo agrees.
"To create a skinwalker (which includes all were-kin), you must have a Chronicle sheet that opens the race as a legal option at character creation."
-Additional Resources
My guess for it becoming restricted?
Swim Speeds
Climb Speeds
See in Darkness
Amphibious
Fly Speed (Bats at BaB +5)
Super Ferocity (Boar Trait + Diehard Feat)
Regular Ferocity (Just as a Bestial Feature)
Unless the Chronicle Sheets are commonplace, unlikely though seeing as how all the previous restricted races were limited-edition ones that could only come upon at a Convention except Tiefling and Aasimar that became unrestricted.
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LoreKeeper I understand where you are coming from but you I don't think Paizo agrees.
"To create a skinwalker (which includes all were-kin), you must have a Chronicle sheet that opens the race as a legal option at character creation."
-Additional Resources...
Unless the Chronicle Sheets are commonplace, unlikely though seeing as how all the previous restricted races were limited-edition ones that could only come upon at a Convention except Tiefling and Aasimar that became unrestricted.
Momo, this is common practice for new races. Introducing a new race to the "always available" list for Pathfinder Society Organized Play is a big deal and a decision that campaign leadership discusses at length. The Additional Resources entry implies what is already true for over a dozen PC races: although the race is not available at this time, the option to play as a member of that race may show up on a Chronicle sheet in the future.
Yea, I wasn't really expecting the skinwalkers to immediately become available to PFS. Glad that the items and Lunar Oracle aren't restricted though.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Quick question before I actually purchase this book, is there a prestige class, or archetype(s), that allow the skinwalker race to fully assume a lycanthropic hybrid (and animal) form? I guess it would be similar to the Weretouched master prestige class for the Eberron.
Nope, no prestige or archetypes in this book. There is a feat for the werebat-kin that lets them turn into a bat, that's the only one I think.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Momo, this is common practice for new races. Introducing a new race to the "always available" list for Pathfinder Society Organized Play is a big deal and a decision that campaign leadership discusses at length. The Additional Resources entry implies what is already true for over a dozen PC races: although the race is not available at this time, the option to play as a member of that race may show up on a Chronicle sheet in the future.LoreKeeper I understand where you are coming from but you I don't think Paizo agrees.
"To create a skinwalker (which includes all were-kin), you must have a Chronicle sheet that opens the race as a legal option at character creation."
-Additional Resources...
Unless the Chronicle Sheets are commonplace, unlikely though seeing as how all the previous restricted races were limited-edition ones that could only come upon at a Convention except Tiefling and Aasimar that became unrestricted.
This doesn't surprise me. Saddens me of course, but doesn't surprise me.
It is part of the reason I think that PFS should continue to 'open up' older races as new ones cycle in.
Quick question before I actually purchase this book, is there a prestige class, or archetype(s), that allow the skinwalker race to fully assume a lycanthropic hybrid (and animal) form? I guess it would be similar to the Weretouched master prestige class for the Eberron.
There is a Pelt of the Beast magical item that allows the wearer to gain Beast Shape 1 3/day, and gives various bonuses to skinwalkers. There are a few abilities in there for getting full hybrid form, but they are limited to high level wizards and lunar oracles.
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Now that I have been able to look over my hard copy of Blood of the Moon I have to say that it seems this book may have been hurt by the page limitations of the player companion. Paizo had to use 18 pages to do the skinwalkers justice (with some side notes on standard lycans of the same types), and then only had 2 remaining to talk about plain old lycanthropy without removing the items and lunar oracle pages. It practically screams "we wanted to say more, but ran out of space".
I'm happy that we got so much information on skinwalkers, but it is sad that we will probably never get stuff like "how to balance a party once it has an infected lycanthrope" simply because there wasn't any space in this book.
Am I crazy or do skinwalkers seem under-powered compared to a lot of other races? Getting only one aspect three times per day along with a +2 ability score (and the bear doesn't get stronger when changed?)? Sure, you can burn a bunch of feats to get the others but they aren't even that good, frankly. In all sincerity, I'd be happy if someone could explain to me how I am wrong about that because I want to like them.
I agree. Not so underpowered as to be useless - and it's definitely still a fun race. But as far as race points go, they're worth about four RP (not counting that they only get the second half of their positive ability score unless they Shift; this isn't something I would usually bring up, but the book lists them as 10 RP, so it seems like a fair standard to work on) before the Bestial Trait from shifting, which adds on anywhere between 1 and 5 points.
That isn't counting that a lot of the Bestial trait abilities nullify or give a diminished return on the basic race (Low-Light vision isn't much compared to Darkvision; and See In Darkness is superior to Low Light in every way), or the whooping -4 charisma modifier while shifting, which sort of hurts the idea of weretiger-kin as manipulative (sure, they still get more Ki, better saves from Paladin stuff, more spells as a sorcerer - but their social based skills suffer quite a bit).
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I'm happy that we got so much information on skinwalkers, but it is sad that we will probably never get stuff like "how to balance a party once it has an infected lycanthrope" simply because there wasn't any space in this book.
Misfit Studios ran a Kickstarter a while back called Bite Me: The Gaming Guide to Lycanthropes that I believe is on track to talk about this kind of thing. :)
I'm a backer, but I believe they intend to sell it through the normal chains once it's done!
*casts summon Christina Stiles*
I'm happy that we got so much information on skinwalkers, but it is sad that we will probably never get stuff like "how to balance a party once it has an infected lycanthrope" simply because there wasn't any space in this book.Misfit Studios ran a Kickstarter a while back called Bite Me: The Gaming Guide to Lycanthropes that I believe is on track to talk about this kind of thing. :)
I'm a backer, but I believe they intend to sell it through the normal chains once it's done!
*casts summon Christina Stiles*
I actually participated in that kickstarter! I just have a tenancy to prefer 'core rules' when possible because that means I don't have to try and convince GMs to allow something in the campaign ;)
Reviewed.
You need this book. Even if you don't think you do.
To be perfectly honest, I thought the artwork was disappointing.
I know that they're not *really* supposed to be full-blooded lycanthropes, so they don't look the part, but...a lot of them just look too silly.
Werebat: funny-looking bat snout
Werebear: Normal person with furry, clawed arms and legs.
Wereboar: People with huge tusks. Probably the least silly.
Werecrocodile: People with white eyes and some scales.
Wererat: People with buck teeth
Wereshark: People with shark fins coming out of one arm? weak.
Weretiger: People with tiger-esque eyes and tails.
Werewolf: People with yellow eyes and little patches of fur.
I understand how the way lycanthropy is expressed is up to the player, but the underwhelming artwork doesn't make me that exited to play them. But I was hoping that I can turn into a full-on bipedal crocodile.
You have to remember, Axial, that art is subjective. Personally, I found the manifestation of the wereboar's gore attack to be the silliest piece of art in the book. One thing that I personally think hurts the book is that the art does not stay consistent regards to whether the "iconic" skinwalker is in human form or in bestial form. For example, when we're talking about the tiger heritage skinwalker, the tiger-esque eyes could be something that the character has in human form too and the tail is simply the start (or conclusion, as the character is wiping blood off of a dagger) of the character's bestial transformation.
So yes, I agree that consistency and some focus on describing what the character looks like in both forms would have been helpful, but I don't think it detracts from the sheer quality of the content presented here.
Quick question before I actually purchase this book, is there a prestige class, or archetype(s), that allow the skinwalker race to fully assume a lycanthropic hybrid (and animal) form? I guess it would be similar to the Weretouched master prestige class for the Eberron.Nope, no prestige or archetypes in this book. There is a feat for the werebat-kin that lets them turn into a bat, that's the only one I think.
That's a shame. I might still give it a look when I have the time, though.
So now that I've read through my physical copy, I feel informed enough to finally start talking about this one.
First, I just want to say that I'm disappointed that it doesn't have as much info on playing a lycanthrope as expected. Between the "Blood Of The Night" backlash and the skinwalkers needing as much room as they did, I understand why there wasn't as much on full-blooded were-creatures and it doesn't hurt the overall quality of the book. But still, I was a little let down.
On the whole, this book is great. I love the skinwalkers. Mechanics and flavor blended perfectly to create a race that's probably now on the top of my "must play as" list. The feats and other crunchy bits fit thematically with their respective heratige, but I love that anyone can use them (I will probably build a changling magus that uses the "natural weapon spell combat" arcana).
Though speaking of mechanic meshing with flavor...I kinda have to scratch my head on the wereshark-kin. All of their flavor goes on and on about how strong they are, but their shifted bonus is to Con? Is that a typo?
But yes, I love this book. It was totally worth the wait and lived up to my mental hype (for the most part). And yes, I've already started bugging the GM who is letting me play a weretiger about some of the items in it. :D
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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I really like this book, but I feel like Paizo missed a golden opportunity to add a new Sorcerer Bloodline (there haven't been any new ones in a VERY long time now): a Lycanthropic bloodline would have made so much sense to put in this book as an option for skinwalker Sorcerers (and other Sorcerers with less lycanthrope heritage). I'm in the process of writing one up, but I would prefer to have seen one from Paizo so that more players would actually use it in games.
Overall, though, this book rocks, and I look forward to getting a PFS boon to play a skinwalker!
I really like this book, but I feel like Paizo missed a golden opportunity to add a new Sorcerer Bloodline (there haven't been any new ones in a VERY long time now): a Lycanthropic bloodline would have made so much sense to put in this book as an option for skinwalker Sorcerers (and other Sorcerers with less lycanthrope heritage). I'm in the process of writing one up, but I would prefer to have seen one from Paizo so that more players would actually use it in games.
Overall, though, this book rocks, and I look forward to getting a PFS boon to play a skinwalker!
We actually did throw around the idea of a lycanthrope sorcerer bloodline while outlining this book.
First, I just want to say that I'm disappointed that it doesn't have as much info on playing a lycanthrope as expected. Between the "Blood Of The Night" backlash and the skinwalkers needing as much room as they did, I understand why there wasn't as much on full-blooded were-creatures and it doesn't hurt the overall quality of the book. But still, I was a little let down.
Obviously, we're still working on getting the balance for these kinds of books just right; I appreciate your feedback.
If you have strong feelings about this book either way—and this goes for everyone—I encourage you to write a review on our website, as usual. :]
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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I really like this book, but I feel like Paizo missed a golden opportunity to add a new Sorcerer Bloodline (there haven't been any new ones in a VERY long time now): a Lycanthropic bloodline would have made so much sense to put in this book as an option for skinwalker Sorcerers (and other Sorcerers with less lycanthrope heritage). I'm in the process of writing one up, but I would prefer to have seen one from Paizo so that more players would actually use it in games.
Overall, though, this book rocks, and I look forward to getting a PFS boon to play a skinwalker!
We actually did throw around the idea of a lycanthrope sorcerer bloodline while outlining this book.
** spoiler omitted **
Oh man, Patrick, you have GOT to post whatever you guys came up with for the Lycanthrope bloodline. Please. Do it. I want to see if it's anything like what I had come up with. :)
Blood of the Night 2 (more about Damphir this time) or Blood of the Moon 2 (more about full lycanthropes...), or maybe both?
I really like this book, but I feel like Paizo missed a golden opportunity to add a new Sorcerer Bloodline (there haven't been any new ones in a VERY long time now): a Lycanthropic bloodline would have made so much sense to put in this book as an option for skinwalker Sorcerers (and other Sorcerers with less lycanthrope heritage). I'm in the process of writing one up, but I would prefer to have seen one from Paizo so that more players would actually use it in games.
Overall, though, this book rocks, and I look forward to getting a PFS boon to play a skinwalker!
We actually did throw around the idea of a lycanthrope sorcerer bloodline while outlining this book.
** spoiler omitted **
Any thoughts on publishing the bloodline in a paizo blog or at a later date?
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Any thoughts on publishing the bloodline in a paizo blog or at a later date?I really like this book, but I feel like Paizo missed a golden opportunity to add a new Sorcerer Bloodline (there haven't been any new ones in a VERY long time now): a Lycanthropic bloodline would have made so much sense to put in this book as an option for skinwalker Sorcerers (and other Sorcerers with less lycanthrope heritage). I'm in the process of writing one up, but I would prefer to have seen one from Paizo so that more players would actually use it in games.
Overall, though, this book rocks, and I look forward to getting a PFS boon to play a skinwalker!
We actually did throw around the idea of a lycanthrope sorcerer bloodline while outlining this book.
** spoiler omitted **
Definitely DEFINITELY this! My Sorcerer bloodline guide hasn't had any updates in MONTHS! :-D
Oh man, Patrick, you have GOT to post whatever you guys came up with for the Lycanthrope bloodline. Please. Do it. I want to see if it's anything like what I had come up with. :)I really like this book, but I feel like Paizo missed a golden opportunity to add a new Sorcerer Bloodline (there haven't been any new ones in a VERY long time now): a Lycanthropic bloodline would have made so much sense to put in this book as an option for skinwalker Sorcerers (and other Sorcerers with less lycanthrope heritage). I'm in the process of writing one up, but I would prefer to have seen one from Paizo so that more players would actually use it in games.
Overall, though, this book rocks, and I look forward to getting a PFS boon to play a skinwalker!
We actually did throw around the idea of a lycanthrope sorcerer bloodline while outlining this book.
** spoiler omitted **
I just did. :P
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I just did. :POh man, Patrick, you have GOT to post whatever you guys came up with for the Lycanthrope bloodline. Please. Do it. I want to see if it's anything like what I had come up with. :)I really like this book, but I feel like Paizo missed a golden opportunity to add a new Sorcerer Bloodline (there haven't been any new ones in a VERY long time now): a Lycanthropic bloodline would have made so much sense to put in this book as an option for skinwalker Sorcerers (and other Sorcerers with less lycanthrope heritage). I'm in the process of writing one up, but I would prefer to have seen one from Paizo so that more players would actually use it in games.
Overall, though, this book rocks, and I look forward to getting a PFS boon to play a skinwalker!
We actually did throw around the idea of a lycanthrope sorcerer bloodline while outlining this book.
** spoiler omitted **
Bad teasing llama! Bad!
*bops with rolled up newspaper*
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Oh, there's no teasing. It doesn't exist. As much as what was said on this thread is as much of the idea that exists. We do a good job of knowing what will and won't fit when we order the text from our freelancers, so that was never designed.
As for posting new rules on the messageboards or as a blog, we tend to not do that (sure, there are exceptions) for a few reasons. First and foremost, it all still takes time. Anything we publish needs to be developed and edited which takes time away from us publishing books. Also, it squirrels away mechanics (or canon) on the website where it is difficult to reference or use in future products. Anything worthwhile we plan to do is going to end up in print (and the PDFs for folks who buy those, of course).
I like skinwalkers. My one problem with them is they're not bestial enough in their altered form. I don't want a character that gains a couple minor bestial features when he transforms. I want a character that completely "hulks out"! Even if it's just cosmetic. I had the same problem with Shifters.
-Kcinlive
We actually did throw around the idea of a lycanthrope sorcerer bloodline while outlining this book.
I'm just going to put this out there: you know the Bloodrager class that's being worked on? The barbarian/sorcerer hybrid? A lycanthrope bloodline would be *perfect* for that.
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Oh, there's no teasing. It doesn't exist. As much as what was said on this thread is as much of the idea that exists. We do a good job of knowing what will and won't fit when we order the text from our freelancers, so that was never designed.
As for posting new rules on the messageboards or as a blog, we tend to not do that (sure, there are exceptions) for a few reasons. First and foremost, it all still takes time. Anything we publish needs to be developed and edited which takes time away from us publishing books. Also, it squirrels away mechanics (or canon) on the website where it is difficult to reference or use in future products. Anything worthwhile we plan to do is going to end up in print (and the PDFs for folks who buy those, of course).
Oh well in that case, Bad aiding Flumph! Bad!
*bops with rolled up newspaper*
I like skinwalkers. My one problem with them is they're not bestial enough in their altered form. I don't want a character that gains a couple minor bestial features when he transforms. I want a character that completely "hulks out"! Even if it's just cosmetic. I had the same problem with Shifters.
-Kcinlive
You can make them as bestial as you want.
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At least 8 lycanthropes + 9 skinwalkers, + lycanthropes hinted at (fox, raven, etc) + variations (like Dire Wolf) + their skinwalkers kin... Blood of the Moon 2, Blood of the Moon 3, and maybe even Blood of the Moon 4... Maybe Paizo will need more writers (and/or a cloning machine).
At least 8 lycanthropes + 9 skinwalkers, + lycanthropes hinted at (fox, raven, etc) + variations (like Dire Wolf) + their skinwalkers kin... Blood of the Moon 2, Blood of the Moon 3, and maybe even Blood of the Moon 4... Maybe Paizo will need more writers (and/or a cloning machine).
Honestly, I hope not. I would be annoyed if we got a werefox-kin before, say, more information on that OTHER race of foxfolk that are already in the game.
It also irked me that catfolk got a shout-out as getting along with Skinwalkers and the kitsune didn't. Werebear-kin and Werewolf-kin specifically talk about Tian-Xia and the Skinwalker racial notes that creatures with the shapechanger subtype (which the kitsune have) interact normally with skinwalkers while they're transformed. (I.E. no penalties on Charisma-based skill checks.)
Why do you torment me, Spirit Lama?!
Catfolk aren't shapechangers and if shapechangers are already friendly then then Kitsune shouldn't need a call out.
Besides Kitsune it might depend on the region or such that they come from.
Honestly I would recommend/prefer a book based around Kitsune that also touched on Werefoxes and Fox Skinchangers.
Catfolk aren't shapechangers and if shapechangers are already friendly then then Kitsune shouldn't need a call out.
Besides Kitsune it might depend on the region or such that they come from.
Honestly I would recommend/prefer a book based around Kitsune that also touched on Werefoxes and Fox Skinchangers.
Interesting idea. +1
Catfolk aren't shapechangers and if shapechangers are already friendly then then Kitsune shouldn't need a call out.
You misunderstand my point. Under the skinwalker's "relations" section, it specifically calls out catfolk as a race that gets along well with the skinwalkers. The reason is likely because catfolk qualify as a "bestial race," and the skinwalker race mentions that more animalistic races tend to get along well with skinwalkers.
But using catfolk as an example seems weird when the kitsune could have been chosen. Kitsune obviously qualify as a bestial race, but they have one up on the catfolk because the skinwalkers have a game mechanic that would favor friendships with kitsune over catfolk. While transformed, a skinwalker suffers a –4 penalty on Charisma-based skill checks with all races except those with the shapechanger subtype, which the kitsune possess.
I'm not complaining about the book's content; it just feels like an odd choice for a shout out compared to a more logical alternative, in my opinion.
Besides Kitsune it might depend on the region or such that they come from.
Catfolk aren't from the Inner Sea either, although I do admit that Blood of the Moon lists Garund as a place where the skinwalkers might have originated from, which is also where Golarion's catfolk presence is strongest.
That said, werebear-kin and weretiger-kin, and werewolf-kin are specifically mentioned as being found in Tian Xia, and witchwolves even specifically call out the Forest of Spirits as a place they inhabit, which happens to be the place where Tian Xia's kami are strongest and the only region in Tian Xia that can be argued as a "kitsune nation." (Which its not, of course, but the kitsune ARE the only humanoid race that live there according to the Dragon Empires Primer.)
Honestly I would recommend/prefer a book based around Kitsune that also touched on Werefoxes and Fox Skinchangers.
I'm sorry in if this sounds rant-like, but I REALLY don't hope this happens. This personal opinion, but I don't think that every animal in the Inner Sea needs to have a lycanthropic variant; its far more interesting when only some of them are common enough to warrant a bestiary entry. There are template construction rules if you absolutely NEED werefoxes in your game, but foxes aren't frightening at all compared to the other lycanthropic animals. If we're talking about the legends that spawned lycanthropy, the hybrids we have exist because people found them scary; most of those animals are associated with the night and can kill people easily, even if its indirectly like the rat. The fox doesn't have that sort of mythology behind it; it is usually seen as a nuisance at best and not a real threat. Moreso, most mythology romanticizes foxes.
Lycanthropy should be something that is feral and scary, and a werefox feels wrong because the base animal (a fox) is not scary.
At AA, some (of the possible) Were[x] are mentioned as being specific to certain race (like Elven Werefoxes), and not looking dangerous can be an advantage.
There are no "legends" of were-rats; the D&D were-rat is based in its entirety on Fritz Leiber's rat-people from The Swords of Lankhmar.
At AA, some (of the possible) Were[x] are mentioned as being specific to certain race (like Elven Werefoxes), and not looking dangerous can be an advantage.
I didn't see that in Blood of the Moon, can you point me to where that is? If its from a source that's older than, say, the Dragon Empires Primer, then that could be something they're choosing to phase out.
I agree that looking dangerous can be an advantage, but when you look at every lycanthrope strand that exists on Golarion, the common theme is "big, ugly, and dangerous." Not fitting into that category CAN be an advantage, yes, but generally speaking creature theme is more important. Its like saying that being a devil who isn't a legalistic fiend whose primary interest is to trick mortals into damnation can be an advantage. Well yeah, not following expectations can be an advantage, but those expectations exist for a reason, and breaking them just feels wrong.
We may need to agree to disagree on this topic, however.
There are no "legends" of were-rats; the D&D were-rat is based in its entirety on Fritz Leiber's rat-people from The Swords of Lankhmar.
You're absolutely correct, of course. Especially considering that the [lycan] in lycanthrope means wolf, and technically speaking calling a wererat a "lycanthrope" is a misnomer. Anyway, as I pointed out, transforming into a rat fits along with the theme of "transforming into dangerous animals" that people would have feared. After all, rats were the carriers of the Black Death. Foxes aren't awe-inspiring predators like tigers and sharks, aren't creatures of the night (and therefore somewhat scary) like bats and wolves, and they aren't able to kill people as easily as a bear, crocodile, or boar can.