Nagaji-well that is disapointing, and what does warcraft have to do with anything, I was thinking of "Breath of fire", the shin megami tensei video games, or the 3.0/3.5 asian version of the Naga race.
Can...not...wait.
Creative Director
|
Is "by James Jacobs" a placeholder ?
Sort of. I'll be writing bits and pieces of this book, and I'll be the one who's going to stitch together all the other authors' words into a whole so it'll have one voice overall (which will mean a fair amount of rewriting and text massaging), but the actual contents are being written by a LOT of different authors.
Is there a chance you guys could reveal the associated Player Companion too? It seems there is an Adventure Path, Setting, Module - and in the form of Ultimate Combat even a Core - product surrounding the Dragon Kingdoms; what oh what is the Player Companion product?
Is there a chance you guys could reveal the associated Player Companion too? It seems there is an Adventure Path, Setting, Module - and in the form of Ultimate Combat even a Core - product surrounding the Dragon Kingdoms; what oh what is the Player Companion product?
I am guessing it will either be Tian Xia Primer, or Dragon Kingdoms Primer.
I think shapechanger PC races are a bad idea. Ah, well. And furries on top of ninja and Samurai... *sigh*Just curious, why do you think shapeshifters are bad? Changlings (Eberron) are fun to play for me.
And is it possible to have an anthropomorphic race you'd not call a 'furry'?
It strikes me that anything with a general grounding in East Asian folklore will have both... now, I think they ought to be done in a non-cutsey way. But... not including them would be analogous to leaving out Lung dragons.
I really hope that the final title picture can do the mockup justice - because it looks freaking awesome right now.
Just curious, why do you think shapeshifters are bad? Changlings (Eberron) are fun to play for me.
And is it possible to have an anthropomorphic race you'd not call a 'furry'?
I don't know exactly, but I think it's too good an ability for characters to have right from the start, and I wouldn't like to have to arbitrate it. Also, aside form RPGs, it's a trope I really dislike, for example, in fiction.
You know, all PC races are "anthropomorphic", because that's just Greek for "human-shaped". Anthropomorphic animals (or just talking anmals) on the other hand, is another thing I really can't stand. I refuse to watch movies or read books having those, it's just too silly for my taste. However, I only call them "furry", when they're ... well, furry.
I´m not sure that ´anything with a grounding in East Asian folklore´ needs to have fox-people as PC playable races...
it IS wierd that there is now the Antropomorphic Animal spell just before Kitsune are released...
SO is that the ´get your pet chihuahua to impersonate a Kitsune for fun and profit´ spell? :-)
anyhow, i´m interested about the samsarans...
they seem especially coincidental with the new Re-Incarnated Druid Archetype...
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I´m not sure that ´anything with a grounding in East Asian folklore´ needs to have fox-people as PC playable races...
it IS wierd that there is now the Antropomorphic Animal spell just before Kitsune are released...
SO is that the ´get your pet chihuahua to impersonate a Kitsune for fun and profit´ spell? :-)anyhow, i´m interested about the samsarans...
they seem especially coincidental with the new Re-Incarnated Druid Archetype...
If you met my chihuahua... you'd be scared at the thought of him having thumbs.
Definitely something that's jumped to the top of my "OMG-I-Have-To-Have" list ;)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I´m not sure that ´anything with a grounding in East Asian folklore´ needs to have fox-people as PC playable races...
(snip)
Well, perhaps, not PC races, but since kitsune, tanuki, etc. take the place of goblins, fey, and similar creatures, there need to be low-CR (1/2 to 1/3) versions of this concept. They interact with peasants and aristocrats as a trickster type, but not really powerful warriors, so they can't be too formidable.
Plus we have the Tengu as a precedent.Kij Jonhson's fiction books suggest that a PC race isn't really a bad idea anyway. A classic "non-furry" version apes human customs and society in a way that mirrors the Gnomes and Halflings. Shapeshifting animals are an interesting commentary on the ridiculousness of conventional society in most contexts, or an expression of a real fear of inhuman forces (as in the Chinese version).
As long as Golarion is peopled by reasonable amounts of non-Human humanoids, there needs to either Asian versions of the classic races or replacements, or the demographics wouldn't make sense -- why aren't they there?-- and other races filling their niches is a valid reason. I think the practical reason, however, is that there needs to be four nonhuman core races for the region. People are going to want to play kitsune anyway-- whether they are CR 1/3 or CR 7. But as with standard PF, some races will sit better with different players and GMs than others.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I plan on buying this product over all, the sheer idea of having a oriental supplement for Pathfinder makes my inner oriental scream a war cry for ideas to homebrew oriental monsters after this product is released and I have read it over a dozen times.
Also I'm just gonna note in the above argument of the addition of antropamorphic animals and shapeshifters in a orgiental world is normal. Most of the yokai and monsters in the mythology of the orient have human qualities or blend a majority of animal traits. Examples: Tanuki, Tengu, Tikbalang, Kitsunes. Those are just a few off the top of my mind, and I understand some people dont like it very much. But is a traditional approach to the mythologies of the orient.
Does that include minotaurs, lizardfolk, guardinals, gnolls, centaurs, lycanthropes (to be fair, only half-furry), serpentfolk, locathah, and other staples of fantasy roleplaying?
Anthropomorphic animals (or just talking anmals) on the other hand, is another thing I really can't stand.
My statement was about general fiction, not just RPG. Concerning the game, the creatures are OK with me (even though guardinals/agathions are pushing it), but they are not PC races, which is an important distinction. PC races are supposed to be generally accepted in normal civilized surroundings, minotaurs etc. usually are not. (Yes, I know about the DragonLance continent, and I don't care for it.)
while i can say ive never been big on oriental adventure type themes, this book looks sweet. ive also never liked very many "monster" races en masse like they will seem to be in Tian Xia, but they kinda make sense and fit for some reason when i think about it (but i still dont know why, but it has me excited).
my biggest curiousity is how the new gods fit in with the old. do they know each other? have people in the Inner Sea region worship them or are they that obscure?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Oooo shiny!
Want!
Sweet!
+1
|
my biggest curiousity is how the new gods fit in with the old. do they know each other? have people in the Inner Sea region worship them or are they that obscure?
I would definately have them be known. After all, they're gods, geographical borders shouldn't really have too much impact on them. I'd have the "old" core gods known in Tian Xia, even if they aren't the "main" gods worshiped there. Similarly, I'd retcon the the "new" gods into having an established presence in the Inner Sea Region.
Oooo shiny!
Want!
Sweet!
+1
+2
I'm very excited and intrigued by this Dragon Kingdoms Gazetteer.
I'm interested to learn about the various nations of Tian Xia and its peoples (including all the new races options mentioned).
I'm glad it's been stated that a HC (while possible) won't be rushed, and I think a good approach would be to produce a couple additional 'gazetteer' like books (maybe each adding details/fleshing out) a few of the regions/nations from "Dragon Kingdoms". (I see someone else had/made a similar suggestion).
I'd also like to see some oriental-inspired monsters... and from the "hint" James Jacobs gave to someone else response... I'd say it's likely that "Jade Regent" will provide us with those very beasties. :)
Really glad I (didn't) cancel my Campaign Setting subscription after all.
~Dean
I´m not sure that ´anything with a grounding in East Asian folklore´ needs to have fox-people as PC playable races...Well, perhaps, not PC races, but since kitsune, tanuki, etc. take the place of goblins, fey, and similar creatures, there need to be low-CR (1/2 to 1/3) versions of this concept. They interact with peasants and aristocrats as a trickster type, but not really powerful warriors, so they can't be too formidable.
Right, though I don´t see why (in RPG terms) they couldn´t be closer to 2 to 4 CR or even more, which is outside PC race standards... ´Non Melee´/Magical Trickster monsters of that CR may not stand up well to low/mid level Fighter-types in direct melee, but usually have multiple resources to avoid such encounters in the first place (parallel to most of their folk-lore encounters taking place with non-personally-formidable civilians, I don´t believe there is much body of folk-lore including them being slaughtered or defeated by low/mid-level warriors, either). That they choose to focus on lowest-level targets in folk-lore isn´t much different to if you compare Animal CR and their typical prey in actual life... Focusing on targets with practically zero chance of harming you, rather than a decent chance, is what most predators will go after 99% of the time.
People obviously have different tastes, I just felt that saying ´unless Kitsune are a standard PC race, it won´t fully represent East Asian mythology´ was un-necessarily dismissive of a valid perspective/ preference. I do personally think that including Kitsune, etc, as PC races WILL undoubtedl result in a divergenc from strictly mythological roles for them, since PC freedom-of-will, plus implicit broadly semi-acceptable role in society at large (for most PC races), will result in them filling roles that only humans would normally fill in real human mythology, just like what happens to gnomes. That said, I´m not personally SO allergic to the concept, though I personally would prefer a LITTLE BIT more continuity with the ´standard´ demi-human races of Golarion (which effectively would mean less new standard PC-races ala Kitsune, unless the game world is to become a zoo).
But obviously, WE´RE GETTING Kitsune as a standard PC race, so I don´t know how much more there is to argue about :-)
And there´s plenty of other continents and regions left on Golarion (and Castrovel, etc) to see the ´standard´ demi-humans in different cultural settings/roles. I AM interested to see how this single Tian nation/region with signifigant ´standard´ demi-human population(s) plays out, and it´s relations with neighboring regions.
...BTW, I think fey is a good analogy, in fact I can see kitsune having a similar relationship to fey as gnomes do (i.e. they no longer count as fey type, but are a humanoid-ized fey). Kami-etc, could equally be another branch of fey, though I can equally see Paizo doing interesting things by making them their own unique creature type/sub-type.
BTW, slightly off-topic, but if James Jacobs is reading this,
Can we expect to see a similar Gazetteer of Casmaron coming out when an AP starts to get into Casmaron more signifigantly,
and a hard-back coming only after the AP´s finished and Paizo wants to flesh out neighboring countries (to the 1st Casmaron AP)?
Also, any plans for a gazetteer of Minkai specifically (which seems to be the final setting of Jade Regent), or other Tian nations?
|
Creative Director
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
my biggest curiousity is how the new gods fit in with the old. do they know each other? have people in the Inner Sea region worship them or are they that obscure?
Every continental region of Golarion has its own core 20 deities. There is overlap. So for Tian Xia, there will be 20 core deities, of which a percentage will be familiar deities from the Inner Sea region and of which the remainder will be brand new (or adapted from mythology).
We don't want to just adapt or retcon all existing deities, because the deities for the Inner Sea were designed for the Inner Sea, not for Tian Xia. Deities are a reflection of their society, after all, and since Tian Xia's society is so different from the Inner Sea, it needs a significant number of its own deities.
There are countless deities in the multiverse, after all. The concept that 20 of the infinite are worshiped on every continent of every planet isn't one we're going for with the game.
|
Creative Director
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
BTW, slightly off-topic, but if James Jacobs is reading this,
Can we expect to see a similar Gazetteer of Casmaron coming out when an AP starts to get into Casmaron more signifigantly,
and a hard-back coming only after the AP´s finished and Paizo wants to flesh out neighboring countries (to the 1st Casmaron AP)?Also, any plans for a gazetteer of Minkai specifically (which seems to be the final setting of Jade Regent), or other Tian nations?
Although we have no plans for an AP set in Casmaron, yes, if we did, we'd probably do something similar.
Until we see how folks react to us spending a significant portion of our resources detailing somewhere other than the Inner Sea, we're not going to be jumping head-first into other big regions.
And don't forget we'll have 6 halves of the Adventure Path itself to explore Tian Xia concepts as well—that's 250 or so pages right there (of which not ALL is going to be about Tian Xia, of course, but of which at least half will be in some way or another).
I totally want to play a big, fat wayang. Is there going to be a chart showing how big my wayang can be?
|
Creative Director
|
I totally want to play a big, fat wayang. Is there going to be a chart showing how big my wayang can be?
Yes, just as there were charts for race sizes in the Core Rulebook. But don't get your hopes up that much... wayangs are Small. The closest analogue to them in the Core is a gnome... but "reversed" in theme. (They're tied to the Shadow plane, not the First World.)
I´m not sure that ´anything with a grounding in East Asian folklore´ needs to have fox-people as PC playable races...Well, perhaps, not PC races, but since kitsune, tanuki, etc. take the place of goblins, fey, and similar creatures, there need to be low-CR (1/2 to 1/3) versions of this concept. They interact with peasants and aristocrats as a trickster type, but not really powerful warriors, so they can't be too formidable.Right, though I don´t see why (in RPG terms) they couldn´t be closer to 2 to 4 CR or even more, which is outside PC race standards... ´Non Melee´/Magical Trickster monsters of that CR may not stand up well to low/mid level Fighter-types in direct melee, but usually have multiple resources to avoid such encounters in the first place (parallel to most of their folk-lore encounters taking place with non-personally-formidable civilians, I don´t believe there is much body of folk-lore including them being slaughtered or defeated by low/mid-level warriors, either). That they choose to focus on lowest-level targets in folk-lore isn´t much different to if you compare Animal CR and their typical prey in actual life... Focusing on targets with practically zero chance of harming you, rather than a decent chance, is what most predators will go after 99% of the time.
(snip)
Well, low-level characters can and do outwit the Fey-like Asian creatures. Perhaps more often in folklore than Samurai and Mandarins...
I think thus a CR 1 or 2 is appropriate-- i.e., 1/3 CR plus a couple class levels. I would actually have lowered the CRs of the Fey tricksters in the Bestiary if I were starting from scratch and added class levels to simulate more powerful ones, but we do need some sort of continuity with 3.5 (and I didn't make the decisions, obviously). (And Gnomes would be an NPC race, and Fey...)If I had Kitsune or Tanuki in my game, then I would generally tack on some magic-using class, Bard, or Rogue, to simulate them as they are in folk stories.
I think we mostly agree here.
I apologize for suggesting that 1/3 races was the only way to go -- I should say "understandable" given the folklore background, and easier to justify than a high CR build that is slotted into a specific role for each of the animal races.
|
my biggest curiousity is how the new gods fit in with the old. do they know each other? have people in the Inner Sea region worship them or are they that obscure?Every continental region of Golarion has its own core 20 deities. There is overlap. So for Tian Xia, there will be 20 core deities, of which a percentage will be familiar deities from the Inner Sea region and of which the remainder will be brand new (or adapted from mythology).
We don't want to just adapt or retcon all existing deities, because the deities for the Inner Sea were designed for the Inner Sea, not for Tian Xia. Deities are a reflection of their society, after all, and since Tian Xia's society is so different from the Inner Sea, it needs a significant number of its own deities.
There are countless deities in the multiverse, after all. The concept that 20 of the infinite are worshiped on every continent of every planet isn't one we're going for with the game.
Question, will there be new art and or holy symbols for the crossover ones. I mean even if it is the same god, i can see how they might be viewed physically at the very least as different.
|
Creative Director
|
Question, will there be new art and or holy symbols for the crossover ones. I mean even if it is the same god, i can see how they might be viewed physically at the very least as different.
Nope. No budget for it, alas. The art budget for this book is REALLY stretched tight. Also, by keeping established art for the established deities we help to create some visual links between Tian Xia and the rest of what we do—after all, this is supposed to feel like a part of Golarion, and by dropping in some visual links we can enforce that.
|
|
Question, will there be new art and or holy symbols for the crossover ones. I mean even if it is the same god, i can see how they might be viewed physically at the very least as different.Nope. No budget for it, alas. The art budget for this book is REALLY stretched tight. Also, by keeping established art for the established deities we help to create some visual links between Tian Xia and the rest of what we do—after all, this is supposed to feel like a part of Golarion, and by dropping in some visual links we can enforce that.
Ah understandable but a pity. I get it is suppose to feel connected. But I just figured the people would see the gods looking more like they do. As in with Asian features and clothes. But similar in look but you know, Asian influence.
|
Creative Director
|
Ah understandable but a pity. I get it is suppose to feel connected. But I just figured the people would see the gods looking more like they do. As in with Asian features and clothes. But similar in look but you know, Asian influence.Question, will there be new art and or holy symbols for the crossover ones. I mean even if it is the same god, i can see how they might be viewed physically at the very least as different.Nope. No budget for it, alas. The art budget for this book is REALLY stretched tight. Also, by keeping established art for the established deities we help to create some visual links between Tian Xia and the rest of what we do—after all, this is supposed to feel like a part of Golarion, and by dropping in some visual links we can enforce that.
If we do ever illustrate one of the crossover deities in the context of Tian Xia, that's a possibility. But for now, it's not on the schedule. There's too much other stuff we need to illustrate in this book.
I totally want to play a big, fat wayang. Is there going to be a chart showing how big my wayang can be?Yes, just as there were charts for race sizes in the Core Rulebook. But don't get your hopes up that much... wayangs are Small. The closest analogue to them in the Core is a gnome... but "reversed" in theme. (They're tied to the Shadow plane, not the First World.)
Honestly, I cannot tell if James is totally pokerfacing, or not...
Yes, just as there were charts for race sizes in the Core Rulebook. But don't get your hopes up that much... wayangs are Small. The closest analogue to them in the Core is a gnome... but "reversed" in theme. (They're tied to the Shadow plane, not the First World.)
Gnome-like things with a connection to the Shadow Plane...any connection to Count Ranalc?
Honestly, I cannot tell if James is totally pokerfacing, or not...
When in doubt, take the high road!
|
Creative Director
|
Yes, just as there were charts for race sizes in the Core Rulebook. But don't get your hopes up that much... wayangs are Small. The closest analogue to them in the Core is a gnome... but "reversed" in theme. (They're tied to the Shadow plane, not the First World.)Gnome-like things with a connection to the Shadow Plane...any connection to Count Ranalc?
Nope. None.
|
|
The idea of a player race based on Indonesian shadow puppet theatre is so cool that I can't wait to see what will Paizo roll out.
Seconded. They sound quite interesting.
There are countless deities in the multiverse, after all. The concept that 20 of the infinite are worshiped on every continent of every planet isn't one we're going for with the game.
What about the seven rulers of Heaven / nine Archdevils / four Horsemen / etc.?
Will there be other parts of major planes discussed with different planar rulers?I like the idea and possibilities of there being countless deities, but the existence of countless deity-level beings leaves me with some questions / issues.
It strikes me as strange on some level that deities (which are much more powerful) have a vastly smaller area of influence than the much less powerful planar beings. The scale of the outer planes has been noted as being vast, with areas many, many times the size of any one world from the material plane. I support this part, it gives the planes the sense of scale they deserve and leaves room for tons of interesting things to be placed in them. The issue comes when we have seven non-deific empyreal lords, eight non-deific archdevils, and four non-deific horsemen each managing an area millions of worlds in size and dealing with the departed souls of countless non-deity-claimed mortals from countless inhabited planets ... and way more deities than you can shake a stick at having lines of influence (partially) divided along cultural and geographical lines upon a single planet.
It seems like in this situation it would make sense if Charon / Salaphiel / Mephistopholes / etc. were the more powerful ones and the deities (excluding ones with even greater ranges of influence, like Pharasma and Asmodeus) were less powerful. The Abyss manages to avoid this problem by having a *ton* of demon lords. Hell almost avoids it with the huge number of infernal dukes and a Malabranche for each planet but sort of loses it with the 8 archdevils and Asmodeus himself. Could you possibly elaborate on how the lower-powered planar beings manage to be in charge of so much more area and so many more souls than the various deities do? Do the deities just not want the responsibility of running a huge section of a major plane and managing all of those souls? Are there more things out there on the planes that just haven't been mentioned yet?
This is more me fishing for more information on what's out there in the planes than a complaint about things. It could be quite interesting if the Asmodeus-section of Hell was only a part of it and that there was also much more to Abaddon and Heaven than has been described. It would also work equally well if a number of the gods with smaller reaches were demigods. I'm just trying to get a feel for the setting and the planar/geographic power balance here.
All of that being said / asked, I am looking forward to this book a great deal and am interested in learning about both the countries and deities covered.
I plan on buying this product over all, the sheer idea of having a oriental supplement for Pathfinder makes my inner oriental scream a war cry for ideas to homebrew oriental monsters after this product is released and I have read it over a dozen times.
Aw man, he's screaming? You should let him out, that's just cruel.
|
|
It strikes me as strange on some level that deities (which are much more powerful) have a vastly smaller area of influence than the much less powerful planar beings. The scale of the outer planes has been noted as being vast, with areas many, many times the size of any one world from the material plane. I support this part, it gives the planes the sense of scale they deserve and leaves room for tons of interesting things to be placed in them. The issue comes when we have seven non-deific empyreal lords, eight non-deific archdevils, and four non-deific horsemen each managing an area millions of worlds in size and dealing with the departed souls of countless non-deity-claimed mortals from countless inhabited planets ... and way more deities than you can shake a stick at having lines of influence (partially) divided along cultural and geographical lines upon a single planet.
A big from me.
As a representative of the union of stabbity geisha girls local #54739, I wholeheartedly approve this product. We urge all of you to preorder .......... or else.
*smoke bomb!*