Pathfinder Beginner Box Heroes Miniatures Set

I'd like to the following:

Goblins of Golarion pack
Orc Battlegroup
Dwarven Clans
Elven Guardians
Giant Pack
Class Packs (Mages of Golarion, Clerics of ..)
Undead Legions
Cityfolk Assortment
Familiars & Mundane Animals
Fiends of the Nether Planes
Contructs of Golarion
Elementals
Iconics of Golarion
Region Packs (i.e. Imperials of Cheliax, Technics of Numeria, Followers of Razmiran0

This could also be used into supporting AP's (Horrors of Ustalav, Jade Empire Vanguard, etc)

I think this could really work in part. I'd be more likely to buy themed packs as would people who even have 100 orc DDM miniatures if the PF sets are themed and complementing.

Erik Mona wrote:

There are lots more ink washes coming in Heroes & Monsters, btw.

That's great to hear. I believe judicious use of washes will put Pathfinder Minis firmly into the "better looking that DDM" category.

Question: I noticed the minis were standing on little plastic "blobs" where they are attached to the base (I suspect this is because the minis and bases are made as separate pieces) -- are the minis in subsequent sets going to be attached in this way?

This post from Erik explains the pads

Ordered the set and glad to have done so. However, the price per mini has got to come down if I'm going to keep on buying.

Ordered the set and glad to have done so. However, the price per mini has got to come down if I'm going to keep on buying.

Not unless you want the quality of either the material or the paint job reduced. Pre-painted plastic minis are expensive to produce. Wizards of the Coast killed their line by giving their minis cheaper and cheaper paint jobs, just so they could keep the cost down. Towards the end, the paint jobs on both their D&D and their Star Wars lines looked horrible.

If you want pre-painted minis, then there will always be a premium you will have to pay. Inevitably their costs will go up and I hope they increase the price of minis proportionately, rather than lower the quality.

The Pathfinder Miniatures line by Reaper is a good option for those that can't afford pre-painted minis, and don't care if the mini is painted or not.

Ordered the set and glad to have done so. However, the price per mini has got to come down if I'm going to keep on buying.

I just noticed the price for the set is $13.00. This means that each mini is $3.25. For minis of this quality this is an incredibly low price. Any price under $5.00 is a GREAT deal for minis of this quality!

To help keep costs down perhaps you should look at buying the paper cut out minis. You get a lot of minis that way for a low cost.

I ordered two set and have not received them yet...

But, I looked at them in my FLGS and they are fantastic. I almost bought a set even though I have two floating out there in transit someplace.

Can't wait to receive these and for the set in December.

Wow! Kyra is over-the-top the most detailed PPM produced to date. They all look great. Merisiel is badly needed. There are not many good Elf Rogues in PPM. The eyes and eyebrows are also some of the best I have seen. I could not paint them this well.

Wizkid/Paizo I am very impressed. They are worth more than what I paid.

Later,

Mazra

I ordered two set and have not received them yet...

But, I looked at them in my FLGS and they are fantastic. I almost bought a set even though I have two floating out there in transit someplace.

Can't wait to receive these and for the set in December.

My words exactly, thanks for saving me the time to type them ;-)

Valeros looks like he has a Elvis-like haircut, made me laugh.

I ordered two set and have not received them yet...

But, I looked at them in my FLGS and they are fantastic. I almost bought a set even though I have two floating out there in transit someplace.

Can't wait to receive these and for the set in December.

Same situation here. I pre-ordered these way back when (September 13), was billed on November 7th, and still haven't gotten them. I've been checking the mail every day like a kid at Christmas. So, for now I'm a sad panda...

I just received mine today, got invited to a last-minute PFS game, and used them tonight. They were the talk of the table on how awesome they looked.

I picked up my set at my local shop the day before last. I love them. Very well done. So very much looking forward to Heroes & Monsters!

....and still hoping Paizo creates a skirmish game!

I am sure I am going to get flamed as a hater, and that is fine. But much like every other discontinued and short lived pre-painted miniature franchise, I just think this is going to end up in the 80% off bin at the local game stores.

I just can't tell you how much I wish they had gone with a high quality die-cut card board token set. This combined with the fantastic table top maps that Paizo make could have easily paved the way for a great Pathfinder virtual table top system.

If WotC were smart, they would start cranking out boxes of die-cut counters. I think that would kill this collectible miniature thing in the crib.

Just my thoughts. Flame away.

I just can't tell you how much I wish they had gone with a high quality die-cut card board token set. This combined with the fantastic table top maps that Paizo make could have easily paved the way for a great Pathfinder virtual table top system.

What are die-cut tokens? Are those like the cardboard pawns in the Beginner's Box?

What are die-cut tokens? Are those like the cardboard pawns in the Beginner's Box?

These would be like the cardboard tokens found in the 4th Edition D&D Monster Vault (among other products). They provide a very nice alternative to painted (and painting) miniatures. They are also a much more effective way to go for a publishing company that already has an in-house 'game aid' design team (referencing the GameMastery table top maps).

Just received my minis today.

Great job overall, but some areas that don't seem as good as the display I saw at GenCon. The gold trim at the bottom of Ezren's robe is not as well done as what I remember.

And the face of the minis, with the exception of Kyra, I was hoping for a little better.

But Kyra's robe is just phenomenal. And the clothing overall for all four are very good, with the abovementioned exception of Ezren's robe.

I am sure I am going to get flamed as a hater, and that is fine. But much like every other discontinued and short lived pre-painted miniature franchise, I just think this is going to end up in the 80% off bin at the local game stores.

I just can't tell you how much I wish they had gone with a high quality die-cut card board token set. This combined with the fantastic table top maps that Paizo make could have easily paved the way for a great Pathfinder virtual table top system.

If WotC were smart, they would start cranking out boxes of die-cut counters. I think that would kill this collectible miniature thing in the crib.

Just my thoughts. Flame away.

Well, I find there are 2 types of people who use 2-dimensional tokens.

1. The types that really don't care how the figures are represented, but find it easier to keep track of where characters are with tokens, instead of using dice.

2. The types that aren't interested in miniatures because of storage or cost concerns (usually the later).

(I have yet to meet someone who outright prefered to use tokens over miniatures just because they though they looked better.)

I used to run a d20 Modern campaign solely with tokens. The hundreds I had all fit in a stamp color album. When I need some extra mooks, I just photocopied them. Tokens are handy.

However, having said that, when I bought a bunch of Modern Miniatures, players switched to using them as their characters (even though they were unpainted). To me, and many of the people I play with there seems to be a natural affinity to being able to pick up and interact with a figure versus a token.

There is a place for both tokens and minatures (they have both been around for 30+ years) so to think that miniatures are just a fad that will soon go away, is indeed worthy of flaming... but I'll let someone else do the honors :)

Dream Daemon wrote:

What are die-cut tokens? Are those like the cardboard pawns in the Beginner's Box?

These would be like the cardboard tokens found in the 4th Edition D&D Monster Vault (among other products). They provide a very nice alternative to painted (and painting) miniatures. They are also a much more effective way to go for a publishing company that already has an in-house 'game aid' design team (referencing the GameMastery table top maps).

The D&D disks are like POGs.

Sorry, but we're not going to do that, ever. For starters, I hate the way the image has to focus on the monster's face, so they all end up looking either tiny or too zoomed in. Terrible.

So no, we won't be doing POGs.

We have had a lot of very positive feedback from the cardboard cut-out pawns in the new Beginner Box, however, and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see more products along those lines.

These things are not mutually exclusive. We don't even produce the pre-painted miniatures, WizKids does. They have been producing prepainted plastic miniatures for longer than anyone in the American tabletop gaming business, and they know their stuff. I am not too worried about longevity, and even if I were, I'd still be pushing them to make the miniatures as awesome as possible at as good a price as possible for basically one reason:

Because I can.

I am sure I am going to get flamed as a hater, and that is fine. But much like every other discontinued and short lived pre-painted miniature franchise, I just think this is going to end up in the 80% off bin at the local game stores.

I just can't tell you how much I wish they had gone with a high quality die-cut card board token set. This combined with the fantastic table top maps that Paizo make could have easily paved the way for a great Pathfinder virtual table top system.
J
If WotC were smart, they would start cranking out boxes of die-cut counters. I think that would kill this collectible miniature thing in the crib.

Just my thoughts. Flame away.

I prefer 3D to 2D. Enough said! BTW WOTC produces pogs for everyone's enjoyment.

I will resist flaming at this time, though it would be well deserved.

Later,

Mazra

PS Erik I saw your post after I posted this. Thank you for not doing Pogs. Though I agree the cardboard figures in the beginners box set are great. They are a good option for those that can't afford miniatures.

I used to run a d20 Modern campaign solely with tokens. The hundreds I had all fit in a stamp color album. When I need some extra mooks, I just photocopied them. Tokens are handy.

I was in a few D20 Modern games that used tokens - they were great for that game/setting, since we and the GM printed pictures of people from the internet and pasted them on blank tokens - and the modern pictures were good for the setting. It was especially fun when we used pictures of celebrities sometimes, it was a great way to instantly set a expectation (which could be broken - such as when I played a doctor character that ruthlessly killed people that crossed him in "failed" attempts to give them medical aid - represented by a picture of Richie Cunningham from Happy Days) [/tangent]

Anyway, I agree that tokens aren't a great solution for fantasy games, especialy monsters. They might be okay for humanoids, using pictures like many of the messageboard avatars though.

was given this as an early Xmas present , and was plesantly impressed with the detail, the base clarity, and i look forward to receiving the heroes and monsters brick!

Nathan East wrote:

Ordered the set and glad to have done so. However, the price per mini has got to come down if I'm going to keep on buying.

Not unless you want the quality of either the material or the paint job reduced. Pre-painted plastic minis are expensive to produce. Wizards of the Coast killed their line by giving their minis cheaper and cheaper paint jobs, just so they could keep the cost down. Towards the end, the paint jobs on both their D&D and their Star Wars lines looked horrible.

If you want pre-painted minis, then there will always be a premium you will have to pay. Inevitably their costs will go up and I hope they increase the price of minis proportionately, rather than lower the quality.

The Pathfinder Miniatures line by Reaper is a good option for those that can't afford pre-painted minis, and don't care if the mini is painted or not.

most non painted metallic minis are more expensive than pre painted on average (i collect all types of minis.) so there is a premium you have to paty for which type of mini regardless.

Also , keep in mind that WotC is releasing a new D&D minis / game as wellin early 2011. So obviously, Minis are still popular.

most ppl who are complaining of the cost must not keep track of the secondary market or ebay.

In case there was ever any doubt... here are 2 reasons why Erik is more awesome than Chuck Norris:

#1

So no, we won't be doing POGs.

#2

I am not too worried about longevity, and even if I were, I'd still be pushing them to make the miniatures as awesome as possible at as good a price as possible for basically one reason:

Because I can.

PaladinRS wrote:

Dream Daemon wrote:

What are die-cut tokens? Are those like the cardboard pawns in the Beginner's Box?

These would be like the cardboard tokens found in the 4th Edition D&D Monster Vault (among other products). They provide a very nice alternative to painted (and painting) miniatures. They are also a much more effective way to go for a publishing company that already has an in-house 'game aid' design team (referencing the GameMastery table top maps).

The D&D disks are like POGs.

Sorry, but we're not going to do that, ever. For starters, I hate the way the image has to focus on the monster's face, so they all end up looking either tiny or too zoomed in. Terrible.

So no, we won't be doing POGs.

We have had a lot of very positive feedback from the cardboard cut-out pawns in the new Beginner Box, however, and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see more products along those lines.

These things are not mutually exclusive. We don't even produce the pre-painted miniatures, WizKids does. They have been producing prepainted plastic miniatures for longer than anyone in the American tabletop gaming business, and they know their stuff. I am not too worried about longevity, and even if I were, I'd still be pushing them to make the miniatures as awesome as possible at as good a price as possible for basically one reason:

Because I can.

I was advocating for POGs as "the next best thing" until I saw them Pawns. Now Pawns is all I want. A Bestiary Pawn Set would make my life complete in oh so many ways. Paizo, please do. I know you can :))))

I'm so happy I could cry. I can finally feel like a newbie again! POG?

I'm so happy I could cry. I can finally feel like a newbie again! POG?

Pogs

PaladinRS wrote:

Dream Daemon wrote:

What are die-cut tokens? Are those like the cardboard pawns in the Beginner's Box?

These would be like the cardboard tokens found in the 4th Edition D&D Monster Vault (among other products). They provide a very nice alternative to painted (and painting) miniatures. They are also a much more effective way to go for a publishing company that already has an in-house 'game aid' design team (referencing the GameMastery table top maps).

The D&D disks are like POGs.

Sorry, but we're not going to do that, ever. For starters, I hate the way the image has to focus on the monster's face, so they all end up looking either tiny or too zoomed in. Terrible.

So no, we won't be doing POGs.

While I read this, I had a JLE Gentleman's Rant running on the other screen. I couldn't help but "hear" what you wrote in their tone. :D

Still, go Tokens!

Well, I find there are 2 types of people who use 2-dimensional tokens.

1. The types that really don't care how the figures are represented, but find it easier to keep track of where characters are with tokens, instead of using dice.

2. The types that aren't interested in miniatures because of storage or cost concerns (usually the later).

(I have yet to meet someone who outright prefered to use tokens over miniatures just because they though they looked better.)

I used to run a d20 Modern campaign solely with tokens. The hundreds I had all fit in a stamp color album. When I need some extra mooks, I just photocopied them. Tokens are handy.

However, having said that, when I bought a bunch of Modern Miniatures, players switched to using them as their characters (even though they were unpainted). To me, and many of the people I play with there seems to be a natural affinity to being able to pick up and interact with a figure versus a token.

There is a place for both tokens and minatures (they have both been around for 30+ years) so to think that miniatures are just a fad that will soon go away, is indeed worthy of flaming... but I'll let someone else do the honors :)

I didn't say miniatures were a fad. I said Pre-Painted Collectible spin-offs were a fad. Even the good ones (Heroscape for example) have not stood the test of time. Most have a MUCH shorter life than Heroscape.

People who don't use miniatures for roleplaying games use tokens. And by far, most of the GMs I know prefer tokens. They provide a good and accurate representation of the encounter without the distraction that a horde of painted (or unpainted) miniatures provide. They are also VERY cost effective. And for alot of people picking up pen and paper rpgs, this was a factor in picking the hobby in the first place.

From what I have seen, the cardboard standies included in the Pathfinder Beginners Box are first class. I hope this is a product that they consider making available. Because the art for the Pathfinder bestiaries is superior to anything else on the market.

The D&D disks are like POGs.

Sorry, but we're not going to do that, ever. For starters, I hate the way the image has to focus on the monster's face, so they all end up looking either tiny or too zoomed in. Terrible.

So no, we won't be doing POGs.

We have had a lot of very positive feedback from the cardboard cut-out pawns in the new Beginner Box, however, and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see more products along those lines.

These things are not mutually exclusive. We don't even produce the pre-painted miniatures, WizKids does. They have been producing prepainted plastic miniatures for longer than anyone in the American tabletop gaming business, and they know their stuff. I am not too worried about longevity, and even if I were, I'd still be pushing them to make the miniatures as awesome as possible at as good a price as possible for basically one reason:

Because I can.

Okay. Let me quantify this then. I do like the pog style counters from the 4th Edition D and D Monster Vault. However. When I ask for a cardboard alternative to pre-painted plastic minatiatures, I am just using the pog style counters as a 'basic' idea.

And then use all the fat loot you get from that to buy a good virtual table top system, and put Wizards of the Coast out of business. I know dudes who SWEAR by hand painted lead miniatures who would buy GameMastery made pawns. Just because their stuff is that good.

I am not even charging you for this fantastic advice. Just name an ogre magi after me or something.

I feel like you sharp shot me a little bit on this one, tbh Ericka. All you had to say was 'we are considering a cardboard alternative to random packs of pre-painted plastic miniatures.'

:)

PaladinRS

PaladinRS you say to Paizo that their just released product will end up in the 80% off bins, and you expect some kind of positive response from your post.

Sheesh!

Mazra

I think that you're projecting, Mazra. I expect some kind of positive response from my posts, and I expect that you expect it from your posts too. However, PaladinRS has asked for flames more than once, and so instead of being self-deprecating, it could just as easily be hanging a lampshade on trolling.

PaladinRS you say to Paizo that their just released product will end up in the 80% off bins, and you expect some kind of positive response from your post.

Sheesh!

Mazra

If you want to make a random miniatures game, make a random miniatures game. It has been done before. And I doubt it will ever be done as well as Heroscape did it. I go by what history teaches. And Ebay is full of trunks of secondary market collectible miniatures from defunct games.

What I am complaining about is my belief that this is being offered to pen and paper role players as a 'game aid' and instead of a POG/Pawn solution. I think that the Pathfinder would be much better served by a POG/Pawn system than a random collectible miniatures system.

It really doesn't affect me to be honest. If I gave the impression I was overly emotionally involved either way, believe me. I am not. I use the pogs from the Monster Vault, and a bunch of the freebee ones WotC released for their 'dungeon encounters' crap. Its about the only thing that WotC makes that interests me.

Having said that. I do have money to spend. And would love to spend it on a cardboard alternative done by the artists responsible for the art in the Pathfinder books.

A cardboard pawn/pog system could also be easily incorporated into a virtual table top system, something that Pathfinder lacks at the moment.

I have been as constructive as I can be. Now that the Pathfinder's Beginner Box is out, put out a poll of how many bought it for the cardboard pawns alone.
I am getting mine when I get off work in about ten minutes. So... First(one)?

I was fortunate enough to win a set of these as a prize at U-Con, and I'm very pleased with the quality and detail.

Unfortunately, my FLGS has been having problems getting them from their distributor - they had not received any as of Thursday, and were not expecting to receive the desired number when they did come in.

One thing I found interesting - the figures seem to be of more than one type of plastic. The weapons and arms are quite flexible, while the rest seems quite rigid.

Overall, a very good set. I feel it is appropriately priced. And these will be a god-send for me as a PFS co-ordinator (allowing me to provide new players with minis for their pre-gens).

Mazra wrote:

PaladinRS you say to Paizo that their just released product will end up in the 80% off bins, and you expect some kind of positive response from your post.

Sheesh!

Mazra

If you want to make a random miniatures game, make a random miniatures game. It has been done before. And I doubt it will ever be done as well as Heroscape did it. I go by what history teaches. And Ebay is full of trunks of secondary market collectible miniatures from defunct games.

What I am complaining about is my belief that this is being offered to pen and paper role players as a 'game aid' and instead of a POG/Pawn solution. I think that the Pathfinder would be much better served by a POG/Pawn system than a random collectible miniatures system.

It really doesn't affect me to be honest. If I gave the impression I was overly emotionally involved either way, believe me. I am not. I use the pogs from the Monster Vault, and a bunch of the freebee ones WotC released for their 'dungeon encounters' crap. Its about the only thing that WotC makes that interests me.

Having said that. I do have money to spend. And would love to spend it on a cardboard alternative done by the artists responsible for the art in the Pathfinder books.

A cardboard pawn/pog system could also be easily incorporated into a virtual table top system, something that Pathfinder lacks at the moment.

I have been as constructive as I can be. Now that the Pathfinder's Beginner Box is out, put out a poll of how many bought it for the cardboard pawns alone.
I am getting mine when I get off work in about ten minutes. So... First(one)?

So what you are saying is that in the Thirty or so years that you have supposedly been playing this game of ours you have seen POG and or Pawns being used more then prepainted miniatures. Now I am sure that is true in your own little circle and I do say little as in in all the 200-300 conventions I have gone to in the 37 years I have played this game. Painted/unpainted miniatures were used first (grenadier and Ral partha among them) and then came reaper and with the onslaught of WotC's prepainted miniatures it was generally 50/50 for GM's and mostly painted metal mini's for players and in the present day it is generally prepainted mini's for game days and public play where there is no home game involved where precious metal gets broken. And 50/50 on the PPM's and metal for players and their characters.

If you want to use POGS then so be it.. I am glad you can spare some change to buy those. Some one needs to, to keep that abysmal market going some how.

Paizo is rumored to do Pawns eventually based on the popularity of the Beginners box set pawns. If you choose to wait for that go for it.

Meanwhile I suggest you go THERE and discuss it and not here. If you like POGS and think that Paizo is making a mistake.. you are a minority in this.. for one Wizkids is doing them.. they are the LONGEST running and one of the most successful of the prepainted mini manufacturers. Not HEROSCAPE. Might also want to get your facts straight. Meanwhile. Might want to troll elsewhere.

This is what I have personally seen as being an active enthusiast in pen and paper role playing games for 30 years:

People who use miniatures for roleplaying games buy unpainted miniatures and paint them themselves.

Well, I would have to disagree with you here.

I have known many people who have bought Pre-Paint Minis (PPMs) because they were finally happy to buy a mini that they didn't have to paint.

In fact almost every gamer I have met in my life has prefered using minis (unpainted or painted). Many groups I have played in, in the past simply used unpainted minis because they lacked talent to paint them.

PPM's are here to stay. They are only currently in their infancy because it has taken time to refine both the process and the economics of producing them. Lets face it, Hasbro/WotC is really the only company that took a serious attempt at making PPM's for casual gaming use. They failed because of Hasbro's pressure-cooker style of management and high sales targets. Combine that with poor leadership/management (Dreamblade -- really????). Paizo's operations are not under the same microscope WotC is. Further more, they are in touch with the customer base and know what they want. They want to produce quality products and I doubt they will every compromise their quality like WotC did.

PaladinRS wrote:

This is what I have personally seen as being an active enthusiast in pen and paper role playing games for 30 years:

People who use miniatures for roleplaying games buy unpainted miniatures and paint them themselves.

snip...

Lets face it, Hasbro/WotC is really the only company that took a serious attempt at making PPM's for casual gaming use. They failed...

...snip

Are we really framing WotC's minis as a failure.

They produced a massive amount of minis, with great variety.
They contributed to the gaming experience of lots of people.
They made WotC/Hasbro a stack of cash.

'Came to an end' is not the same as 'failed'.

PaladinRS wrote:

Mazra wrote:

PaladinRS you say to Paizo that their just released product will end up in the 80% off bins, and you expect some kind of positive response from your post.

Sheesh!

Mazra

If you want to make a random miniatures game, make a random miniatures game. It has been done before. And I doubt it will ever be done as well as Heroscape did it. I go by what history teaches. And Ebay is full of trunks of secondary market collectible miniatures from defunct games.

What I am complaining about is my belief that this is being offered to pen and paper role players as a 'game aid' and instead of a POG/Pawn solution. I think that the Pathfinder would be much better served by a POG/Pawn system than a random collectible miniatures system.

It really doesn't affect me to be honest. If I gave the impression I was overly emotionally involved either way, believe me. I am not. I use the pogs from the Monster Vault, and a bunch of the freebee ones WotC released for their 'dungeon encounters' crap. Its about the only thing that WotC makes that interests me.

Having said that. I do have money to spend. And would love to spend it on a cardboard alternative done by the artists responsible for the art in the Pathfinder books.

A cardboard pawn/pog system could also be easily incorporated into a virtual table top system, something that Pathfinder lacks at the moment.

I have been as constructive as I can be. Now that the Pathfinder's Beginner Box is out, put out a poll of how many bought it for the cardboard pawns alone.
I am getting mine when I get off work in about ten minutes. So... First(one)?

So what you are saying is that in the Thirty or so years that you have supposedly been playing this game of ours you have seen POG and or Pawns being used more then prepainted miniatures. Now I am sure that is true in your own little circle and I do say little as in in all the 200-300 conventions I have gone to in the 37 years I have played this game....

None of the Wizkids games, from HeroClix to Mageknight to Crimson Skies had as long a run or as many expansions as Heroscape. Might want to get your facts straight yourself.

And if voicing concerns to a company and hobby I have a vested interest in is trolling, then I am indeed a troll. Rawr. Any little fat kids around for me to eat? (now you are being trolled).

I am sorry if I offended any Wizkids stockholders or fans. I just am not a believer in the 'random' box of anything. For a pen and paper roleplaying system, it seems alot like a money sink.
Also. Gary Gygax recommended the cardboard cut outs found in Steve Jackson's "Melee" game back in 1980s blue book edition of the Basic Set as an alternative to lead miniatures. And he probably had teams of Ral Partha dudes willing to paint his shizzatch for free. Like, teams and teams of them.

I am glad that people who want painted miniatures are getting the opportunity to buy random packs of painted miniatures. I honestly am. I just wish that the people who had been asking for a cardboard alternative had gotten something more than a few dozen in a box with other stuff we didn't really need. Especially when I can look at the cardboard flipmats GameMastery makes.

But I have hope that this will be addressed. The pawns are indeed beautiful. And I can now retire 20 or so of my WotC pogs. I will find it the height of amusement if the Pathfinder Beginning Box has more net sails than the collectible miniatures game :P Either way, I guess it is win win for Paizo. And I do love the Paizo products.

So yeah. Flame on. LOL.

None of the Wizkids games, from HeroClix to Mageknight to Crimson Skies had as long a run or as many expansions as Heroscape. Might want to get your facts straight yourself.

????

Heroscape: 2004-2010, 4 masters, 13 expansions

Heroclix: 2002-2008, 2009-present, over 35 sets + individual figures & special packs beyond those

MageKnight: 2000-2005, 17 expansions

And just because, DDM: 2003-2010, 21 releases

I think that you're projecting, Mazra. I expect some kind of positive response from my posts, and I expect that you expect it from your posts too. However, PaladinRS has asked for flames more than once, and so instead of being self-deprecating, it could just as easily be hanging a lampshade on trolling.

PaladinRS' comment about these miniatures ending up in the 80% off bin was particularly unkind. The process to bring a line of PPMs to market is very difficult. Paizo/Wizkids needs to be applauded for their efforts. PaladinRS has a right to his opinion, and I have right to mine, and you have to yours. And Erik's comments about Pogs was very good.

Later,

Mazra

Heroscape: 2004-2010, 4 masters, 13 expansions

Facts:

Opinions:
and you cant even really count the 2-3 expansions at the end the end that were D&D miniatures sculpts repainted.
The fact that heroscape wouldn't pay sculptors to make new (or better) sculpts was always a sign to me that it wasn't selling well. I attributed this to the poor sculpts/paint and the non randomness, I'm not going to buy a 4 figure pack for $20 for one figure, I will buy a 5 figure pack for $20 with the chance to get 5 figures I need, but the risk of getting none.... its basicly an expensive scratch ticket

As an early playtester for chess, I can tell you guys that while pawns are always sold in significantly higher numbers, they don't matter in the big picture.

So there.

Are we really framing WotC's minis as a failure.

They produced a massive amount of minis, with great variety.
They contributed to the gaming experience of lots of people.
They made WotC/Hasbro a stack of cash.

'Came to an end' is not the same as 'failed'.

True. However, they did not "come to an end" by plan. (Technically, they haven't even come to an end).

The reality is, is that they could have continued the line and the line would have continued to be profitable. They discontinued the line because it was not at profitable as it originally was.

In my opinion, they ended the line prematurely and failed their customers.

Just got mine today and I am impressed. These are by far the best looking prepainted plastic miniatures I have ever owned. I put them next to some D&D miniatures that I have and I was blown away at how much better these look. I am going to order a case of the Heroes & Monsters miniatures tonight.

One thing I found interesting - the figures seem to be of more than one type of plastic. The weapons and arms are quite flexible, while the rest seems quite rigid.

WizKids actually has the ability to vary the rigidity of the plastic *within the same molded part*, so the tip of a sword (for example) can actually be more flexible than the rest.

As far as the Iconics go, I sort of have mixed feelings in terms of wanting them as minis. On one hand, I do want to collect them, because...well, I love Pathfinder and they're...well, they're *Iconic*. On the other hand, I wouldn't want to use, say, Valeros, if I were playing a fighter, because in my mind he would always be Valeros, and not my guy. But still...I want them.

At this point, I'm mostly interested in seeing Seoni and Amiri...the others I can wait on.

(edited a typo)

WizKids actually has the ability to vary the rigidity of the plastic *within the same molded part*, so the tip of a sword (for example) can actually be more flexible than the rest.

That is... really, really impressive. Thanks for the little behind-the-scenes info you guys have been leaking. It's fascinating.

Got mine in the mail yesterday! They are fantastic! The faces don't have much paint detail, but a wash would really do wonders for that. Otherwise the level of detail on them overall is fantastic. Great value for the price, and I like the quality of the plastic they're molded in. Much tougher than the DDM figures but not too rigid as to be brittle.

I foresee buying many singles in my future. (Sorry, I don't buy blind random packs, but will buy on the secondary market)

Scribbling Rambler wrote:

One thing I found interesting - the figures seem to be of more than one type of plastic. The weapons and arms are quite flexible, while the rest seems quite rigid.

WizKids actually has the ability to vary the rigidity of the plastic *within the same molded part*, so the tip of a sword (for example) can actually be more flexible than the rest.

Interesting.

And if voicing concerns to a company and hobby I have a vested interest in is trolling, then I am indeed a troll. Rawr. Any little fat kids around for me to eat? (now you are being trolled).

Actually, what makes trolling is intent to incite flames. And the subtlest form is the needle.

*needle*

*needle*

*needle*

"I'm poking you, I'm poking you, nyah!"

You seem pretty good at poking with nasty little barbs hidden in a fraternal tone, while explicitly soliciting flames. (So you know, sarcasm is unfriendly... not that you needed me to tell you that. I mean "Ericka", really? Really really? That takes intent.) Walks like a duck, talks like a duck... it's an entree.

Are we really framing WotC's minis as a failure.

They produced a massive amount of minis, with great variety.
They contributed to the gaming experience of lots of people.
They made WotC/Hasbro a stack of cash.

'Came to an end' is not the same as 'failed'.

They're also currently playtesting a collectible game to go with their rerelease of PPM, so I doubt it was a huge loss for them.

It seemed to me that they tried to compromise with the 'we hate random' crowd by having the one visible, some hidden format and when that failed went back to the drawing board. (The incessant speculator in me thinks they were also encouraged by the success of the Gamma World game and saw the "mini skirmish game with cards instead of dice" as a natural evolution for them.

I dont see how they failed though, just because they went through many iterations and not many liked all of them. I personally was glad they were willing to innovate with the delivery and try new ways of packaging. Everyone else can learn from their experience too and the whole hobby gets better, as far as I can see.

I believe that for a long time WotC was extremely successful with the DDM line. They sold out of their production runs in most of their early sets. That is as good as it gets. But I believe there were many factors that caused the line to be less and less successful. The coming of 4th edition changed the skirmish game and the RPG stat cards. Many people did not get on board, evident by the success of Pathfinder. Then.... "It is the economy, stupid!" That was a big factor. Toy companies do not handle recessions very well. WotC went through a purge when the economy tanked. With it went support for the skirmish game. There went more of their sales. Visible monsters in packaging that made some boosters less desirable than others didn't help much. It seems like Lord of Madness, the last set may have done well. They went back to a fully random format. This last set included miniatures that many had hoped would be produced. I can only gauge by the after market, where many of the Lords of Madness figures have sold at EBay auctions for hefty prices.

Bottom line DDMs were very successful, then later not so much. I have confidence in Erik, Wizkids and Paizo to get the Pathfinder line right. And for no other reason than Paizo in particular truly understands the hobby.

Later,

Mazra