RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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This thread is longjacked for whatever reason; is there any way to straighten it out?
I don't know what you mean by that...
Vic, what he means is that Phil L's post from near the top of the page is pushing the page beyond the horizontal capacity of most monitors. If there were a blank space somewhere in Phil's primal fury there, this thread would be easier to read.
Will there be dire weasels? I hope there's dire weasels.I consider the dire weasel a pretty iconic creature myself. I'd like to have stats for one because I love to say "fiendish dire weasel" and people in my group grin at the mention of one.
One of the players in my 3.5e game plays a druid and likes to transform into a dire weasel too.
I hadn't noticed the absence of it in PRPG until it was pointed out.
Monsters whose absence go unnoticed until someone points that absence out are not strong contenders for reprinting.
Additionally, without a legitimate oversized weasel from the fossil record, we're VERY unlikely to carry the dire weasel forward in any official capacity. We're more likely to at some point do up stats for a giant weasel, I guess. Semantics, to a certain extent, but semantics are pretty important when it comes to language and words and editors and all that...
I'm personally of the opinion that the Wolverine stat block pretty well covers the Dire Weasel and Dire Badger type monsters. But I don't work in editorial.
Additionally, without a legitimate oversized weasel from the fossil record, we're VERY unlikely to carry the dire weasel forward in any official capacity. We're more likely to at some point do up stats for a giant weasel, I guess. Semantics, to a certain extent, but semantics are pretty important when it comes to language and words and editors and all that...
That hardly seems fair to the poor dire weasel. There aren't really any precedents for the dire wolverine in the fossil record, and the dire lion could have a case made for it, but doesn't get so much as a "cave lion" appended to its flavor text. And the dire ape owes way more to Burroughs than it does to the actual Gigantopithecus, which was the orangutan equivalent of a panda.
Creative Director
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That hardly seems fair to the poor dire weasel. There aren't really any precedents for the dire wolverine in the fossil record, and the dire lion could have a case made for it, but doesn't get so much as a "cave lion" appended to its flavor text. And the dire ape owes way more to Burroughs than it does to the actual Gigantopithecus, which was the orangutan equivalent of a panda.
Additionally, without a legitimate oversized weasel from the fossil record, we're VERY unlikely to carry the dire weasel forward in any official capacity. We're more likely to at some point do up stats for a giant weasel, I guess. Semantics, to a certain extent, but semantics are pretty important when it comes to language and words and editors and all that...
And to be honest, the dire wolverine was THIS CLOSE ----><---- to being cut from the Bestiary as a result. The only reason we left it in there was because it showed up on the summon nature's ally spell list; the dire weasel didn't have that luxury. Still... I was incredibly tempted to cut the dire wolverine from the book based on the fact that there wasn't an obvious and workable bit of support from the fossil record.
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And to be honest, the dire wolverine was THIS CLOSE ----><---- to being cut from the Bestiary as a result. The only reason we left it in there was because it showed up on the summon nature's ally spell list; the dire weasel didn't have that luxury. Still... I was incredibly tempted to cut the dire wolverine from the book based on the fact that there wasn't an obvious and workable bit of support from the fossil record.
But then you couldn't have a dire were-wolverine with adamantium claws and a ridiculous fast healing level.
Were I involved with creating another d20 variant (which, frankly, the world doesn't need), I would probably make a Dire Animal template. That way, you can slap a bit of dire on anything!
Check out Magalictis or Ekorus for a dire wolverine. And Potamotherium for a dire weasel.
Will there be dire weasels? I hope there's dire weasels.I consider the dire weasel a pretty iconic creature myself. I'd like to have stats for one because I love to say "fiendish dire weasel" and people in my group grin at the mention of one.
One of the players in my 3.5e game plays a druid and likes to transform into a dire weasel too.
I hadn't noticed the absence of it in PRPG until it was pointed out.
Monsters whose absence go unnoticed until someone points that absence out are not strong contenders for reprinting.
Additionally, without a legitimate oversized weasel from the fossil record, we're VERY unlikely to carry the dire weasel forward in any official capacity. We're more likely to at some point do up stats for a giant weasel, I guess. Semantics, to a certain extent, but semantics are pretty important when it comes to language and words and editors and all that...
So no dire weasel then...
*nods*
What about a dire stoat?
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And to be honest, the dire wolverine was THIS CLOSE ----><---- to being cut from the Bestiary as a result. The only reason we left it in there was because it showed up on the summon nature's ally spell list; the dire weasel didn't have that luxury. Still... I was incredibly tempted to cut the dire wolverine from the book based on the fact that there wasn't an obvious and workable bit of support from the fossil record.But then you couldn't have a dire were-wolverine with adamantium claws and a ridiculous fast healing level.
Were I involved with creating another d20 variant (which, frankly, the world doesn't need), I would probably make a Dire Animal template. That way, you can slap a bit of dire on anything!
+1
Doing a Dire template I think would be the best option over all and one that would make a fix for all the animals in the book as is right now. Just adding the Dire template to them just makes more sense :)-jon
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Creative Director
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Check out Magalictis or Ekorus for a dire wolverine. And Potamotherium for a dire weasel.
I'm a pretty huge prehistoric creature nerd, and even though my specialization in that venue is dinosaurs, I'm still pretty well versed on megafauna. None of those names ring a bell with me. That certainly doesn't mean that they're bad choices, and had I been able to find any of those names during the research stage of development on the dire wolverine, I would have probably used those names. But I didn't find them, and the book's in print, so it's pretty much too late for the dire wolverine to get this extra level of cool added to the game.
Further complicating this method is, of coruse, the fact that some prehistoric creature names are simply not appropriate for the game. "Utahraptor" is a great example—there's no such thing as "Utah" in Pathfinder, so that's a terrible name for a giant velociraptor type critter. In some cases, there are alternate choices for the name ("Utahraptor" can just as easily be "megaraptor," and "Irish Deer" can become Megaloceros), but sometimes that's not an option. "Potamotherium" sounds a bit too much like "POTATO-matherium" and would be made fun of too much, I fear, so it wouldn't be a good choice. Nevermind the fact that Potamotherium is a better choice for a prehistoric otter than a prehistoric weasel.
Also: Calling it a giant weasel rubs the nostalgia button better, since that's what they were called in 1st and 2nd edition.
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Creative Director
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Necromancer Games did a dire animal template in one of the Tomes of Horrors, so folks who want to go that route have rules already.
That's not a route I want to go with for Pathifnder, though, since the big attraction to me about this whole process is to look at the real-world capabilities of these animals and come up with rules to match. Furthermore, including differences beyond "more hit dice" with a prehistoric version of a common animal is cool; it helps to make the prehistoric one feel more like its own thing rather than just a "biggie size" creature. A dire creature template simplifies things too much—there wouldn't be enough room in that template to cover all the possible unique abilities prehistoric creatures can have, and as a result the template would end up just looking too much like the rules for simply advancing a creature's size. Those rules already exist, so there's no need to duplicate them.
And finally, by making a dire creature template, we're implying that it's cool to put that template on ANY animal. And there are some animals that are fundamentally silly when you put the dire template on it. I'm not all that interested in making it easier for someone to stat up a dire hamster, in other words.
Necromancer Games did a dire animal template in one of the Tomes of Horrors, so folks who want to go that route have rules already.
That's not a route I want to go with for Pathifnder, though, since the big attraction to me about this whole process is to look at the real-world capabilities of these animals and come up with rules to match. Furthermore, including differences beyond "more hit dice" with a prehistoric version of a common animal is cool; it helps to make the prehistoric one feel more like its own thing rather than just a "biggie size" creature. A dire creature template simplifies things too much—there wouldn't be enough room in that template to cover all the possible unique abilities prehistoric creatures can have, and as a result the template would end up just looking too much like the rules for simply advancing a creature's size. Those rules already exist, so there's no need to duplicate them.
And finally, by making a dire creature template, we're implying that it's cool to put that template on ANY animal. And there are some animals that are fundamentally silly when you put the dire template on it. I'm not all that interested in making it easier for someone to stat up a dire hamster, in other words.
But.......Giant Space Hamster.:(
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But.......Giant Space Hamster.:(Necromancer Games did a dire animal template in one of the Tomes of Horrors, so folks who want to go that route have rules already.
That's not a route I want to go with for Pathifnder, though, since the big attraction to me about this whole process is to look at the real-world capabilities of these animals and come up with rules to match. Furthermore, including differences beyond "more hit dice" with a prehistoric version of a common animal is cool; it helps to make the prehistoric one feel more like its own thing rather than just a "biggie size" creature. A dire creature template simplifies things too much—there wouldn't be enough room in that template to cover all the possible unique abilities prehistoric creatures can have, and as a result the template would end up just looking too much like the rules for simply advancing a creature's size. Those rules already exist, so there's no need to duplicate them.
And finally, by making a dire creature template, we're implying that it's cool to put that template on ANY animal. And there are some animals that are fundamentally silly when you put the dire template on it. I'm not all that interested in making it easier for someone to stat up a dire hamster, in other words.
And Tyranohamsterus Rex. Gargantuan size, and afraid of just about anything, including magic or fire. The now-destroyed gnome colony that first bred them did so "because it was there".
Edit: And my favorite variant, the Fire-Breathing Phase Doppleganger Giant Space Hamster, complete with a great quote from its creators:
“We completely fail to see why everyone is so upset, especially since biology is such an inexact science and for every step we take forward there must be two steps backward but anyway we said we were sorry and we‘d like our funding back so we can pay our bail and go home."
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Creative Director
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But.......Giant Space Hamster.:(Necromancer Games did a dire animal template in one of the Tomes of Horrors, so folks who want to go that route have rules already.
That's not a route I want to go with for Pathifnder, though, since the big attraction to me about this whole process is to look at the real-world capabilities of these animals and come up with rules to match. Furthermore, including differences beyond "more hit dice" with a prehistoric version of a common animal is cool; it helps to make the prehistoric one feel more like its own thing rather than just a "biggie size" creature. A dire creature template simplifies things too much—there wouldn't be enough room in that template to cover all the possible unique abilities prehistoric creatures can have, and as a result the template would end up just looking too much like the rules for simply advancing a creature's size. Those rules already exist, so there's no need to duplicate them.
And finally, by making a dire creature template, we're implying that it's cool to put that template on ANY animal. And there are some animals that are fundamentally silly when you put the dire template on it. I'm not all that interested in making it easier for someone to stat up a dire hamster, in other words.
They're lame. Hate them. One of my favorite symbols (one of MANY) of how the Spelljammer campaign setting mis-stepped, in my opinion.
"Minsc and Boo would have words with you sir! Words like PUNCH and RRRAAAARRRGH!" - Minsc of Rasheman.They're lame. Hate them. One of my favorite symbols (one of MANY) of how the Spelljammer campaign setting mis-stepped, in my opinion.
But.......Giant Space Hamster.:(
And go for the eyes!
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Creative Director
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"Minsc and Boo would have words with you sir! Words like PUNCH and RRRAAAARRRGH!" - Minsc of Rasheman.They're lame. Hate them. One of my favorite symbols (one of MANY) of how the Spelljammer campaign setting mis-stepped, in my opinion.
But.......Giant Space Hamster.:(
Heh.
Thing is, though, that Minsc and Boo are actually really quite fun and amusing. Because Boo is a normal hamster, and Minsc is an insane ranger. If he were sane, then we would have to assume he was correct that his hamster was indeed a miniature giant space hamster, and in that case I would hate the character. But having him be a brain-damaged insane ranger not only makes his character a thousand times more interesting, but it's a fun way to put commentary into the game that the idea of a giant space hamster is itself insane.
But this is a fantasy world, why do all prehistoric creatures have to follow real world evolutionary methods? In a world as different and filled with magic compared to ours, there's no reason why there can't be dire weasels. Or dire anything, really, a prehistoric version of dragons (well, you have linnorms for that), prehistoric giants, prehistoric magical beasts, etc.
I'd also like to point out that I'm kind of against every creature in a world/plane/universe MUST absolutely be held to the standard of "has to look and be cool/scary/funky/twisted" ideaology and ignoring anything that might be taken the least bit silly. We have some pretty whacky, funny, and silly things in our own world, why exclude them from a fantasy game world?
That was what I loved about 2E. The monster designers didn't adhere to the "everything has to be uber-awesome" method of creating a creature. They created silly things, and knew they were silly, but that's what makes playing in a fantasy world that much more golden.
I'm not saying make dozens of silly monsters, but a few won't really hurt, and you might even happen upon a golden egg with one of them.
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Creative Director
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But this is a fantasy world, why do all prehistoric creatures have to follow real world evolutionary methods? In a world as different and filled with magic compared to ours, there's no reason why there can't be dire weasels. Or dire anything, really, a prehistoric version of dragons (well, you have linnorms for that), prehistoric giants, prehistoric magical beasts, etc.
I'd also like to point out that I'm kind of against every creature in a world/plane/universe MUST absolutely be held to the standard of "has to look and be cool/scary/funky/twisted" ideaology and ignoring anything that might be taken the least bit silly. We have some pretty whacky, funny, and silly things in our own world, why exclude them from a fantasy game world?
That was what I loved about 2E. The monster designers didn't adhere to the "everything has to be uber-awesome" method of creating a creature. They created silly things, and knew they were silly, but that's what makes playing in a fantasy world that much more golden.
I'm not saying make dozens of silly monsters, but a few won't really hurt, and you might even happen upon a golden egg with one of them.
Because the Creative Director of the fantasy world in question likes it that way.
Why do I prefer that? Because reality is as interesting as fantasy, frankly. There's PLENTY of room in the game for all sorts of weird magical monsters and stuff, but that also means there's plenty of room to include real-world stuff like prehistoric animals.
As for prehistoric examples of other things, we do that. Prehistoric dragons, for example—that's basically the role that the linnorms play.
As for SILLY stuff... I take the creation of a fantasy world pretty seriously. It's what pays my rent, for one, but for another, I'm not a big fan of the silly genre of fantasy that you see in books like Piers Anthony's Xanth novels, or the Discworld stories of Terry Pratchett. I much MUCH prefer grim, stark stories like you might find in George R. R. Martin's Game of Thrones, Robert E. Howard's Conan stories, or the Lord of the Rings. And that preference bleeds into the game that I'm in charge of the creative direction on. And that game's been VERY successful, which tells me that I'm not the only one that is into this stuff.
Furthermore, the tail end of 2nd edition, when the "silly stuff" was, for me at least (and also for a lot of others here at Paizo, and for a lot of customers overall when you look at the sales data) one of the low points in the game's history. One of the things that 3rd edition did that was, frankly, brilliant, was to carve away a lot of the "silly stuff" and put back in a lot of the edgy stuff, like half orc PCs and the assassin as a player option. The launch of 3rd edition REALLY revitalized the game, and brought back a hell of a lot of lapsed players who had lost interest in the game.
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I do prefer that Paizo keeps the straight face on with its products and world building. There's plenty of ways for players to lose immersion in a game and dropping in "gag" monsters and conceits is probably the fastest way to do so.
That said there's a lot to be said about the more serious aspects of Discworld. Discworld's dwarfs for example have a very interesting culture (once you get past the beer and gold). And Nac Mac Feegles!
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This thread is longjacked for whatever reason; is there any way to straighten it out?I don't know what you mean by that...Vic, what he means is that Phil L's post from near the top of the page is pushing the page beyond the horizontal capacity of most monitors. If there were a blank space somewhere in Phil's primal fury there, this thread would be easier to read.
this!
Will there be something in the Bestiary 2 that floats about firing rays from its many eye stalks? (I hope, I hope) -- I apologize if this has been asked, already.
Will there be something in the Bestiary 2 that floats about firing rays from its many eye stalks? (I hope, I hope) -- I apologize if this has been asked, already.
I don't work for Paizo, so.....what my opinion is worth;.....
but they've said plenty of times that they weren't interested in making copy monsters of the non-OGL things like beholders and mind flayers et. al...
Will there be something in the Bestiary 2 that floats about firing rays from its many eye stalks? (I hope, I hope) -- I apologize if this has been asked, already.I don't work for Paizo, so.....what my opinion is worth;.....
but they've said plenty of times that they weren't interested in making copy monsters of the non-OGL things like beholders and mind flayers et. al...
That's a bummer - Beholder's are kind of core monsters to me IMO - was never a fan of Mind Flayers
Wait a minute. "We're not interested in updating silly creatures that have no evidence in the fossil record."
This from the company that just released updated statistics for the Flumph????
Wait a minute. "We're not interested in updating silly creatures that have no evidence in the fossil record."
This from the company that just released updated statistics for the Flumph????
I assume that was the exception to the rule the proves the rule...
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Creative Director
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Wait a minute. "We're not interested in updating silly creatures that have no evidence in the fossil record."
This from the company that just released updated statistics for the Flumph????
The entire POINT of "Misfit Monsters Redeemed" was to test ourselves. It was kind of an arrogant experiment, honestly, born out of a (perhaps unintentional) challenge that someone voiced on these very boards: "Is there any monster that Paizo CAN'T make cooler?"
We decided to take up that challenge. Whether or not we succeeded is up to those who read "Misfit Monsters Redeemed." I think we did, though.
Will there be something in the Bestiary 2 that floats about firing rays from its many eye stalks? (I hope, I hope) -- I apologize if this has been asked, already.
Don't look now, but...
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/evil-eye
-The Gneech
Wait a minute. "We're not interested in updating silly creatures that have no evidence in the fossil record."
This from the company that just released updated statistics for the Flumph????
The entire POINT of "Misfit Monsters Redeemed" was to test ourselves. It was kind of an arrogant experiment, honestly, born out of a (perhaps unintentional) challenge that someone voiced on these very boards: "Is there any monster that Paizo CAN'T make cooler?"
We decided to take up that challenge. Whether or not we succeeded is up to those who read "Misfit Monsters Redeemed." I think we did, though.
Fine. Show me the fossil record for the Shoggoth, and I will shut up.
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Fine. Show me the fossil record for the Shoggoth, and I will shut up.Wait a minute. "We're not interested in updating silly creatures that have no evidence in the fossil record."
This from the company that just released updated statistics for the Flumph????
The entire POINT of "Misfit Monsters Redeemed" was to test ourselves. It was kind of an arrogant experiment, honestly, born out of a (perhaps unintentional) challenge that someone voiced on these very boards: "Is there any monster that Paizo CAN'T make cooler?"
We decided to take up that challenge. Whether or not we succeeded is up to those who read "Misfit Monsters Redeemed." I think we did, though.
Why the bitterness?
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Creative Director
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First of all... thanks for the kind words! :-)
Just a question for the Paizo powers that be. Will there be monsters of all CRs in the book? I just want to know if our little event will suffer because there aren't three good monsters of the appropriate challenge rating. If I have to i will bump it up to 10th level.
Monster CR ranges in Bestiary 2 go from 1/3 to 23, I believe. MAYBE 1/4 to 23. And overall, there's over 300 separate stat blocks in the book.
Also when you design the monsters do you have a specific character creation technique you use for play testing? I went with 20 point buy because that's what the pathfinder society uses and those seem to be very well balanced, challenging but not impossible.
We pretty much use the rules and guidelines we printed in Appendix 1 of the Bestiary to build monsters.
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Wow! Thanks for responding to our question in 2 minutes. You guys really are the best. My boss Julian says hi by the way. (He met you at Paizo Con where you signed a T-rex mini for me). So we are planning on doing mini playtest events for all your future pathfinder books. Our Pathfinder groups love whenever we do an extra store\-sponsored Pathfinder event in addition to our weekly Society games. If you ever get a chance we should do an event and have some of you Paizo guys come down to Burbank, CA to join in on the event.
if not then we'll see you at Paizo Con again this year.
And you guys have a very nice store in Burbank. One of the few places in LA that run society games. Would recommend anyone in the LA area drop in for a visit, the place is huge.
So... how about that Table of Contents?
/ \
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^
(3)
Pleeeeeeeeeeaaase.
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Creative Director
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Wow! Thanks for responding to our question in 2 minutes. You guys really are the best. My boss Julian says hi by the way. (He met you at Paizo Con where you signed a T-rex mini for me). So we are planning on doing mini playtest events for all your future pathfinder books. Our Pathfidner groups love whenever we do an extra store\-sponsored Pathfinder event in addition to our weekly Society games. If you ever get a chance we should do an event and have some of you Paizo guys come down to Burbank, CA to join in on the event.
if not then we'll see you at Paizo Con again this year.
HA! I remember signing that T-Rex! Good times.
Anyway... thanks for the kind words! I'll definitely drop by if I'm ever down there in Burbank, which isn't an impossibility since I've got friends and family down in So Cal.
The method by which the contents of Bestiary 2 is still in staging. All should be made clear soon!So... how about that Table of Contents?
Pleeeeeeeeeeaaase.
Thank-yee, thank-yee. :)
P.S. Consider another vote for BotD III: Daemons cast! Love them daemons!
(Been on the edge of my seat for more of 'em since CotCT II!)
Hey guys, just thought I'd pop in and mention something exciting. I was at my local game store, and the owner had just gotten in some promotional posters for Bestiary 2. It was done in a similar fashion to WotC dnd mini posters where you can check off figs as you collect them, however in this instance, you check off monsters as you kill them. I didn't count how many are on the poster, but I'm pretty sure its a comprehensive list of whats in the book. I'm not going to spoil it, but I'd recommend bugging your lgs to get one. BTW James, I like what I see.
Cheers
Swish!
That T-rex was for me! My boss at Emerald Knights got that for me because I told him you were like a celebrity to me because of your awesomeness in design and on these boards and I wanted you to sign the mini that was your avatar. I still have it on my bookshelf next to my Colossal red dragon. I think this year I'll get to go to Paizo Con and then we're going to have some fun.
Thanks to Auxmaulous for the kind words. Our store is pretty cool. If any of you want we are doing an awesome bestiary 2 release event the saturday after the Bestiary 2 is released. Its gonns be from 1 to 8pm. Look us up we're Emerald Knight Comics and Games in Burbank, CA.
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Creative Director
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Hey guys, just thought I'd pop in and mention something exciting. I was at my local game store, and the owner had just gotten in some promotional posters for Bestiary 2. It was done in a similar fashion to WotC dnd mini posters where you can check off figs as you collect them, however in this instance, you check off monsters as you kill them. I didn't count how many are on the poster, but I'm pretty sure its a comprehensive list of whats in the book. I'm not going to spoil it, but I'd recommend bugging your lgs to get one. BTW James, I like what I see.
Cheers
Swish!
Whew... the horror that this poster would somehow vanish into the aether is banished!
So... YAH! Anyone who wants to see every piece of art from Bestairy 2 along with a relatively complete list of monsters should seek out your FLGS and track down the promo poster! :-)
Fine. Show me the fossil record for the Shoggoth, and I will shut up.
Boneless creatures are very rare in the fossil record under the best of circumstances.
Woot! The poster has been seen the wild. :)
Head on over to your local store to see what's in the book so you can plan what creatures to kill at each level.
Hyrum.
