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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Advanced Player's Guide (OGL)

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Advanced Player's Guide (OGL)
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Take your Game to the Next Level!

Explore new and uncharted depths of roleplaying with the Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide! Empower your existing characters with expanded rules for all 11 Pathfinder Roleplaying Game core classes and seven core races, or build a new one from the ground up with one of six brand-new, 20-level base classes. Whether you're designing your own monstrous helpers as an enigmatic summoner, brewing up trouble with a grimy urban alchemist, or simply teaching an old rogue a new trick, this book has everything you need to make your heroes more heroic.

The Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide is a must-have companion volume to the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook. This imaginative tabletop game builds upon more than 10 years of system development and an Open Playtest featuring more than 50,000 gamers to create a cutting-edge RPG experience that brings the all-time best-selling set of fantasy rules into the new millennium.

The 336-page Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide includes:

  • Six new base classes: the monster-hunting inquisitor, the explosive alchemist, the noble cavalier, the prophecy-haunted oracle, the monster-crafting summoner, and the hex-weaving witch
  • More than a hundred innovative new feats and combat abilities for characters of all classes, including Steal, Point-Blank Master, and Bouncing Spell
  • Variant class abilities, rules subsystems, and thematic archetypes for all 11 core classes, such as the antipaladin, the hungry ghost monk, and the urban ranger
  • Hundreds of new spells and magic items, from phantasmal revenge to the Storm King's Cloud Castle
  • A wealth of fantastic equipment, such as fireblast rods and fortune-tellers' cards
  • New prestige classes like the Master Chymist and the Battle Herald
  • ... and much, much more!

ISBN-13: 978-1-60125-246-3

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Last Updated - 12/01/2010

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good

5/5 —

good addition to the collection offers good spells and feats, came in on time and I bought the non-mint and I haven't noticed any damage to it.

Players: Buy this after the Core Rulebook

5/5 —

If you own a Core Rulebook and a Bestiary, what Pathfinder book should you buy next? A campaign setting book or an adventure module would be good answers, but if you're looking for more character options, the best answer would be the Advanced Player's Guide. This was Paizo's first big player-oriented hardcover to be released after the Core Rulebook, and it's safe to say they knocked it out of the park. This book has stood the test of time and still contains fantastic options for the game even though it was released several years ago. If you're playing PFS on a budget, for example, and you have to be choosy with what books or PDFs you buy, start with the Advanced Player's Guide. You'll find enough options in there to keep you busy for years.

What follows is a chapter-by-chapter review. Do keep in mind that this book pre-dates the publication of classes like the magus, vigilante, kineticist, etc., so you won't find options directly designed for them. In addition, because it's part of the RPG line, it does not contain Golarion-specific flavour (though everything in here is compatible with the setting). As a whole, I would classify the art as in the lower-middle spectrum of what Paizo can do, with a lot of reused mediocre stuff from earlier books. The layout as a whole, however, is quite nice.

Chapter 1 (Races): After an Introduction that's really just an expanded table of contents, Chapter 1 expands the options available for Core races (those found in the Core Rulebook). For each race, a sentence or two describes how each of the Core classes and the so-called Base classes (those found later in this book) are represented within the culture. I found this section was fairly generic and tried too hard to make it sound like each class was common in each race, so there wasn't anything that seemed special. Next up are alternative racial traits for the Core races. These are important in that they allow a player to swap out one of the special features of a race (like an elf's automatic familiarity with elven weapons, or a gnome's resistance to illusion) for a different special feature. In other words, it's a good way to customize your PC just a little more and ensure that not all dwarfs are skilled at stonework, for example. Last, this chapter presents new favoured class options for each of the Core races: instead of the normal rule that a new level in a favoured class provides 1 hit point or 1 skill point, these new options allow a particular race to get something different. For example, a gnome with the favoured class of bard could get an extra round of bardic performance each day, or a half-orc with the favoured class of fighter could get an additional +2 to stabilization rolls when dying. Note that each race only has new favoured class options for handful of classes (not all of them). Unlike the alternate racial traits, I wasn't particularly impressed with the flavour or thought given to the new favoured class options: many of them didn't seem to have any particular tie to the race. Half-orcs, for example, can increase their bomb damage if their favoured class is alchemist, while human paladins can start to get energy resistance--there's nothing in the write-up of these races that make these bonuses seem natural or logical. From an optimization perspective, these new favoured class options are quite useful--I just wish they were better from a storytelling perspective.

Chapter 2 (Classes): One of the most important things that the Advanced Player's Guide brings to Pathfinder is the introduction of six new "Base" classes: the Alchemist, Cavalier, Inquisitor, Oracle, Summoner, and Witch. I don't have a lot of space to review each one, so I'll try to be concise.

The Alchemist fills a real niche in the game, is quite versatile, and would be really fun to play. They get special abilities to rapidly make alchemical items (of course), but also can manufacture bombs, cast magic spells (in the form of drinkable "elixirs"), and temporarily "hulk out" by drinking a "mutagen." As a GM, my only concern is the fact that the bombs resolve against Touch AC, so in games I've run the alchemist PC hardly ever misses and does substantial amounts of damage as an area effect. I also think that perhaps the mutagen feature should have been reserved for a specific "Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde" archetype, as I don't thik it fits well as part of the basic assumption of alchemists.

The Cavalier could probably have been better represented as a Fighter archetype. Cavaliers are mounted knights who swear an oath to follow the precepts of a particular order. Different orders provide different bonuses, Cavalier's mounts are hardier than normal, and the class provides PCs and their allies with some limited use of teamwork feats (discussed below). As written, the class is fairly bland, and I don't think it fills a hole in what could be covered well by other classes. You also see Cavaliers relatively rarely in gameplay because, frankly, they're just inferior to other builds (and I should know, because I've played one for a couple of years now!).

The Inquisitor is one of those classes I'm a bit torn about. The idea is that they're specialists in rooting out corruption and heresy within their faith, which is thematically really cool: but I don't see how that fits naturally with the activities of the vast majority of adventuring parties in the game. The class is conceptually unique and has a lot of cool and useful abilities, some of which seem to fit from a flavour perspective (like Bane) but others that just seem kind of random (like Monster Lore and Cunning Initiative).

The Oracle is another interesting class that I'm unsure about conceptually. Mechanically, they're spontaneous divine spellcasters who don't worship deities per se but instead strive to unravel a particular "mystery." As they advance in level, they get "revelations" which are special powers. Some of the revelations are really cool, and the mysteries are very flavourful. I like the class better after reading it carefully, though I'm still not sure about the name of the class (since divination isn't the focus) nor about the vague relationship they have to deities. They are a divine spellcasting class that is much simpler to play than clerics (though less effective), and thus potentially a good choice for new players.

The Summoner as presented in this book is infamous as the most overpowered class in all of Pathfinder, to the point where most GMs and PFS disallow it. "Unchained" Summoners (as they're usually called in contradistinction to a different type from another book) are, of course, really good at summoning lots of monsters, which is annoying for everyone at the table because it dramatically slows down gameplay. But more problematically, each Summoner gets an "eidolon" which is a bit like a completely customizable and incredibly powerful monstrous animal companion. If you have an Unchained Summoner, you may as well be playing a solo campaign because you probably don't need anyone else in the party to win most encounters. I'm not sure how the Unchained Summoner ever made it through playtesting, but it stands as an example that even great companies like Paizo can make major mistakes.

The Witch is a full (up to 9th level spells) spellcasting class that receives special powers called hexes. Some of the hexes are really flavourful and cool, and the concept of the class as a whole is one I really like. There are two things about the class I'm not a fan of: first, familiars are a major part of the class and as both a player and a GM I find familiars really annoying to deal with (because they rarely contribute positively to a play experience); second, each witch receives bonus spells depending on what "patron" they choose, but the patrons are just abstract concepts (like "Agility" or "Water") and have no substance or flavour to them, and no real potential for story development. I think it was a bland and almost forgettable way of implementing a really cool idea (mysterious forces granting a character power in exchange for . . .?). I should also note that one of the witch's hexes, Slumber, has proven overpowered and problematic at a lot of tables.

So as a whole, I think the Alchemist is a real success, while Witches, Oracles, and Inquisitors are solid additions to the game. The Cavalier is mostly forgotten, while the Summoner is a good example of what not to do in terms of game design.

The Classes chapter then continues by offering each of the Core classes something special, often in the form of "archetypes." If you don't already know, archetypes are packages of abilities that swap out some of the features of a class in exchange for other features, and they've become an important part of most builds for experienced players. Here's a summary of what each Core class gets.

1) Barbarians receive a lot of cool new options for rage powers (though, oddly, a lot of them relate to consuming alcohol) and several archetypes that don't change a lot of class features but that are quite good;

2) Bards get some fantastic and (sometimes quite dramatic) archetypes, at least as written--but admittedly, I don't hear about them being played very often;

3) Clerics receive the introduction of "subdomains", which are, as the name indicates, "branch" domains. A cleric with the Sun domain, for example, could now choose the replacement special power and domain spells of the Light subdomain. It's a way to allow the further customization of clerics since they don't have a lot of class features to trade out for archetypes;

4) Druids get archetypes that are all terrain-based and quite formulaic, along with a handful of "animal shaman" archetypes that have the same essential ability to gain an aspect of a particular animal's powers.

5) Fighters get a lot of archetypes, most of which are poor in terms of flavour ("Archer" or "Two-Handed Fighter") but some that are quite nutritious, as it were, to aiding particular combat styles;

6) Monks get a lot of archetypes, most of which are pretty bland but some, like the Zen Archer, the Monk of the Four Winds' Slow Time ability, and the Monk of the Healing Hand's capstone power are pretty cool;

7) Paladins get archetypes that are okay, but there's some clunky features for the Divine Defender and Sacred Servant. There's also the introduction of the Antipaladin (formally an "Alternate" Class) which I know a lot of people demanded but I'm just not a fan of the concept because I think it devalues the essential goodness of the Paladin idea;

8) Rangers get new archetypes and some new combat styles. I really like the Guide archetype, as the Terrain Bond feature seems much truer to the niche that rangers should fill as wilderness experts. The Infiltrator and Skirmisher archetypes also get some cool stuff;

9) Rogues receive 30 new rogue talents and 12 new advanced rogue talents to choose from, though most are of the "1/day, roll two d20s and take the better" on a specific skill check type. I like the Fast Getaway talent (allowing a rogue to sneak attack and then withdraw), and imagine it would keep a lot of rogues alive. The class also receives several archetypes, but most are pretty thin and forgettable (though the Cutpurse could be used to devastating effect depending on GM discretion);

10) Sorcerers receive 10 new bloodlines, and although I'm not an expert on the class, they look useful and meaningful;

11) Wizards get new elemental schools to specialize in, and some of the special powers look like a lot of fun (like the Air school's Cyclone power or the Water school's Wave power). There's also the introduction of "Focused Arcane Schools" which you can think of as "super specialization" in a particular aspect of a School in order to gain replacement powers.

Whew! A lot of stuff in that chapter. Moving on.

Chapter 3 (Feats) contains a *lot* of new feats. The summary table which gives a one-line description of each one fills four pages. Many of the new feats are standalone things, but others can be grouped by type: several give an additional use of class features ("Extra Rage Power", "Extra Rogue Talent", etc.), make it easier to use the new combat maneuvers introduced at the end of the book, create new metamagic options for spellcasting (with "Dazing Spell" responsible for a lot frustration to GMs), etc. A new type of feat, Teamwork Feats, are introduced for the first time in this chapter. The idea with Teamwork Feats is that if two PCs (or allied NPCs) have the same feat, they both get bonuses in particular situations: for example, if two PCs have the "Allied Spellcaster" teamwork feat, they each get a +2 bonus on caster level checks to overcome spell resistance. I do like the concept, but the proven problem is that it's often hard to get other players at the table to have their PCs take the same one that you're taking, and the bonuses provided by the feats aren't so amazing that groups are inclined to carefully coordinate.

Chapter 4 (Equipment) contains about 25 new weapons (including some of those fun, weird polearms D&D veterans will recognize), a handful of new types of armor, a lot of new pieces of adventuring gear, and several new alchemical items. There's not a lot here that's earth-shattering, though some items, such as Weapon Blanch, have become de rigeur for every smart adventurer. It would have been nice if more of the equipment was illustrated, and that better choices were made on what was essential to illustrate: I know what an hourglass looks like, for example, and don't need a picture, but seeing what a "light detector" looks like would have been interesting.

Chapter 5 (Spells) has 57 pages of options for spellcasters of every stripe. Reading through, I noticed a surprising number of cool Paladin spells, a lot of Bard "finale" spells (that are cast and instantly end bardic performance), and a lot of ninth level spells. Some of the spells I really liked include Blaze of Glory, Fire Snake, and Hero's Defiance, and the picture of Cacophonous Call on p. 209 is hilarious. Every spellcaster is bound to find something useful, but there are some problematic ones introduced in this chapter, like the Create Pit line, that GMs need to be aware of.

Chapter 6 (Prestige Classes) introduces eight new options that PCs could, but probably won't, strive for. Pathfinder long had a reputation for not making much of the prestige class concept, and that's only recently begun to change. Really fast verdicts: 1) Battle Herald: Love the concept, but everything is tied off an "Inspiring Command" bonus which just progresses too slowly, making the entire prestige class weak; 2) Holy Vindicator: no design room for the concept, and the abilities don't help; 3) Horizon Walker: the bonuses in some terrains are fantastic and in others completely "meh"; 4) Master Chymist: Classic Jekyll & Hyde alchemist; 5) Master Spy: I liked this more than I thought I would, and could see it used for a lot of NPCs or maybe a PC (in just the right campaign). Gets clever and useful foils to most means of detection, but abilities come on line much later than they should for most adventures; 6) Rage prophet: Not impressive. 7) Stalwart Defender: Good, cool abilities that fit the theme, and a good capstone power.

Chapter 7 (Magic Items) has something of everything: magic weapons, armor, wondrous items, minor and major artifacts, etc. The new metamagic rods are really powerful considering the price, the new staves are pretty boring, and there's a lot of stuff geared specifically for the new classes, which makes sense. If you've dumped Strength and are relying on Muleback Cords, you've got this book to thank. My only regret is that the chapter introduces so many fun cursed magic items, and I hardly ever get an opportunity to use any in a game.

Chapter 8 (New Rules) is an important chapter containing three new concepts: additional combat maneuvers, hero points, and traits. [I'm almost done, but have run out of space here. The end of the review can be found at: http://jhaeman.blogspot.com.au/2017/07/advanced-players-guide-rpg.html]

A very awesome book

5/5 —

this expands almost perfectly on what the core is.

They add some very solid and original class ideas.

This a must buy for some that like pathfinder

5/5 —

The Shinning Example of What Pathfinder Books Should Be

5/5 —

The Advanced Player's Guide (APG) is to this day one the best books for Pathfinder. It introduces a number of (now iconic) classes unique to the system.

The overall balance of the book is amazing. Alchemist and Inquisitor are probably the two most well-balanced classes in the game, and the latter is what I consider to be the best designed one in all of Pathfinder.

We get a few alternate rules that are pretty cool, such as word casting and character traits. We even get new combat maneuvers added to the fold!

The possibilities of character creation allowed by this book greatly increases the variety and fun of Pathfinder. If you can only buy a single expansion book, buy this one.

The book is not perfect, of course. The Summoner class (and even more so, its archetypes) would really benefit from clearer wording. It's sad to see cool ideas such as word casting being completely abandoned after this...

Still, those are minor problems in comparison to all the good stuff that is included in the APG, and the book still deserves its 5-star rating.

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James Jacobs wrote:


HOPEFULLY... we'll have an announcement about the Playtests for this book next week sometime on the blog.

Dear James,

I appreciate your hopeful outlook, and can only add please please pretty please. I really have great idea for a pc that sounds like a perfect fit for the summoner class (just from the sentence).Maybe you could put the stat block up on the message boards as a teaser.*smiles* insert puppy dog eyes here.

Thank you soo much for entertaining this rather silly request for as long as you do.
Liberty's Edge

Does anyone know if this book or the Gamemeastery guide will include epic levles for the base classess? Imo it is needed badly.
Dark Archive
memorax wrote:
Does anyone know if this book or the Gamemeastery guide will include epic levles for the base classess? Imo it is needed badly.

i don't think it will although i do agree with you. I have a game that is about to reach epic levels soon (around 16th) and an expansion of epic level rules, while nice, could fill a book about this size on its own. I don't think the piazo team has even begun work on the epic level rules, though i would like to have faith otherwise.

i do believe that the most requested things for a Pathfinder "remake" have been:

Psionics
Epic
and Monsters as PC's

...so it does stand to reason seeing how there is a large customer base for these demanded things, they will probably eventually make them. However, they have more pressing concerns about releasing the core books first. To be honest, i'm surprised they're already about to release a splat beta test. Happy! but surprised.
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber
memorax wrote:
Does anyone know if this book or the Gamemeastery guide will include epic levles for the base classess? Imo it is needed badly.

I think it's unlikely. I figure the epic rules will come in a book of their own, with serious public playtesting beforehand. IIRC the only playtesting for this book is the new classes, starting this week.

Pathfinder Maps, PF Special Edition Subscriber

Really impressed with Pathfinder material so far. Looking forward to test the new classes released.

Hur hur hur

This will be fun
Dark Archive

Not sure about other people, but most of the games I have played in haven't gone anywhere near epic levels. I guess with the APs it helps out quite a bit, but I think the majority of players would not benefit from an Epic rules manual just yet.

This is all good news, and with the playtest announced, I can't wait. However, I have heard of rumors in the past of the Blackguard ( Anti-Paladinish )and Templar( A Paladin for all the other Alignments ) Core Classes, and there is no mention of them anywhere here. Are they not to be included in this Volume ?
Liberty's Edge
Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Bladesinger wrote:
This is all good news, and with the playtest announced, I can't wait. However, I have heard of rumors in the past of the Blackguard ( Anti-Paladinish )and Templar( A Paladin for all the other Alignments ) Core Classes, and there is no mention of them anywhere here. Are they not to be included in this Volume ?

I suspect they'll be in as Paladin Variants rather than whole new classes.

It is indeed confirmed that they will be alternate classes rather than whole new ones. Which makes sense, the six new classes are mechanically very different from the original 6, all defined to fit some uncovered niche or concept.
Paizo Employee Creative Director

There won't be much, if anything at all, about epic level play in either the Gamemastery Guide or the Advanced Player's Guide. That's a topic for its own book, a book still some time away from publication.
vagrant-poet wrote:
It is indeed confirmed that they will be alternate classes rather than whole new ones. Which makes sense, the six new classes are mechanically very different from the original 6, all defined to fit some uncovered niche or concept.

Indeed ? Where is this confirmation, because I missed it somehow. I'm fairly certain I read these would be 20 level classes. In fact that was part of the reason Blackguard was not included in the Core Book, because they felt it deserved its own 20 level progression. Also, I believe they stated that they didn't want it to just be the polar opposite of the Paladin ( Detect Good instead of Evil, etc...), but something that was its own Class. I'll try to find the original posts.

Bladesinger wrote:
vagrant-poet wrote:
It is indeed confirmed that they will be alternate classes rather than whole new ones. Which makes sense, the six new classes are mechanically very different from the original 6, all defined to fit some uncovered niche or concept.
Indeed ? Where is this confirmation, because I missed it somehow. I'm fairly certain I read these would be 20 level classes. In fact that was part of the reason Blackguard was not included in the Core Book, because they felt it deserved its own 20 level progression. Also, I believe they stated that they didn't want it to just be the polar opposite of the Paladin ( Detect Good instead of Evil, etc...), but something that was its own Class. I'll try to find the original posts.

Well, the 4 Winds Fantasy Gaming Anti-Paladin is the CE equivalent to a Paladin - a dedicated, passionate, zealous harbinger of death, chaos, and destruction, whereas a Blackguard is a fallen Paladin - someone who has lost faith and turned to darkness. At least that's the concept behind the difference.

Notice they want to get Cavalier and Oracle out first. Personally I'd think that the Alchemist and Summoner might be tricky enough that they'd want to start the playtest on those right away.
Dark Archive
Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:
Notice they want to get Cavalier and Oracle out first. Personally I'd think that the Alchemist and Summoner might be tricky enough that they'd want to start the playtest on those right away.

It's quite possible that the are tricky enough, and are undergoing fine tuning still...

Paizo Employee Creative Director
SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:
Notice they want to get Cavalier and Oracle out first. Personally I'd think that the Alchemist and Summoner might be tricky enough that they'd want to start the playtest on those right away.

We're going with Cavalier and Oracle first because when design began, those were the two who were going to have their sketches done first. As it worked out, Wayne got us all six sketches in, but by that point the Cavalier and Oracle were already mostly done.

So... the schedule has little to do with "which ones need the most work" and everything to do with "which ones can we illustrate first."
James Jacobs wrote:
SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:
Notice they want to get Cavalier and Oracle out first. Personally I'd think that the Alchemist and Summoner might be tricky enough that they'd want to start the playtest on those right away.

We're going with Cavalier and Oracle first because when design began, those were the two who were going to have their sketches done first. As it worked out, Wayne got us all six sketches in, but by that point the Cavalier and Oracle were already mostly done.

So... the schedule has little to do with "which ones need the most work" and everything to do with "which ones can we illustrate first."

I SEE IT IS ALL WAYNE'S FAULT...GRRRRR. Actually, did he draw the summoner as a gnome. That may save him from my wrath.If not He is an amzing artist,and I guess I can be patient. Haruummph

Dark Archive
gnomewizard wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:
Notice they want to get Cavalier and Oracle out first. Personally I'd think that the Alchemist and Summoner might be tricky enough that they'd want to start the playtest on those right away.

We're going with Cavalier and Oracle first because when design began, those were the two who were going to have their sketches done first. As it worked out, Wayne got us all six sketches in, but by that point the Cavalier and Oracle were already mostly done.

So... the schedule has little to do with "which ones need the most work" and everything to do with "which ones can we illustrate first."

I SEE IT IS ALL WAYNE'S FAULT...GRRRRR. Actually, did he draw the summoner as a gnome. That may save him from my wrath.If not He is an amzing artist,and I guess I can be patient. Haruummph

Umm... where are these illustrations you are referring to? I don't believe I have seen the gnome summoner...

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2009 Top 4

They'll be released as the class are released. So you'll get too on Friday
Sczarni

I wonder if complaining about the ¨O¨ word ill delay it untill saturday.
Liberty's Edge
James Jacobs wrote:
There won't be much, if anything at all, about epic level play in either the Gamemastery Guide or the Advanced Player's Guide. That's a topic for its own book, a book still some time away from publication.

I hope not too long. It is pointless to promote Pathfinder as a seperate brand from 3.5 when people are forced to use a 3.5. book for epic levels. Best thing to do imo as soon as possible is to make it as self contained as you can. All you had to do was make it 3.5 compaitalbe. As much as I like a books about the gnomes and orcs of galorion I think the epic level and psionics book should take more precedance.

Sovereign Court
memorax wrote:
As much as I like a books about the gnomes and orcs of galorion I think the epic level and psionics book should take more precedance.

I disagree as I have no use for epic level and psionics. I'd prefer Paizo continue with their current schedule.

Liberty's Edge
Callous Jack wrote:


I disagree as I have no use for epic level and psionics. I'd prefer Paizo continue with their current schedule.

I agree with this disagreement ;) Epic and Psionics are so far down the list of things that I want to see that I can't see them on the list from here.

Brutesquad07 wrote:
Callous Jack wrote:


I disagree as I have no use for epic level and psionics. I'd prefer Paizo continue with their current schedule.

I agree with this disagreement ;) Epic and Psionics are so far down the list of things that I want to see that I can't see them on the list from here.

They didn't make it onto my list.

Paizo Employee Creative Director
memorax wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
There won't be much, if anything at all, about epic level play in either the Gamemastery Guide or the Advanced Player's Guide. That's a topic for its own book, a book still some time away from publication.
I hope not too long. It is pointless to promote Pathfinder as a seperate brand from 3.5 when people are forced to use a 3.5. book for epic levels. Best thing to do imo as soon as possible is to make it as self contained as you can. All you had to do was make it 3.5 compaitalbe. As much as I like a books about the gnomes and orcs of galorion I think the epic level and psionics book should take more precedance.

3rd Edition was just fine without epic level rules; it was 2 or 3 years after the release of the game before the Epic Level rulebook came out anyway, and there was NEVER a rulebook updated for 3.5 (although the SRD was sorta updated for the 3.5 rules for epic content).

Pathfinder is not "crippled" without an epic level rulebook any more than it is by a "missing psioncis book" or a "missing race book" or a "missing car chase rulebook." There is a LOT of extra content already out there that's compatible with Pathfinder if you want to use a non-core set of rules; that's the WHOLE POINT of making the game copmpatible with 3.5 after all.

Which is another way of saying that there's nothing wrong with using 3.5 content with Pathfinder. I do it all the time in my home games and when I'm developing and writing stuff for Paizo.

We are very likely to be doing something with the post-20th-level game within the next 3 years, but it's not going to happen in 2010 for sure.

The book's been out a whole 3 months. If you're getting into Epic Level issues already, slow down the experience progression and/or start everyone at level one. I've never had a character even make it to level 20, so Epic Level campaigns are a bit beyond my experience.
Liberty's Edge

I understand that the Epic level book is not a priority. Neither should it take forever. Otherwise Pathfinder will not be seen as Pathfinder imo just another "3.5. clone". So far some of those who I know who are holding out on getting Pathfinder is because their is no epic level book or psionic book. They see no reason to buy Pathfinder to be told "buy or book but use 3.5. to fill in the gaps". Their resposne is why "why should I buy Pathfinder then". The burden of proof right now is on Paizo to convince 3.5 holdouts to buy their product.

I work in retail and I can tell you promoting your product while promting 3.5 at the same time imo is a mistake. You don't see those in charge of promoting Harry Potter telling people to read Philip Pullmans Dark Materials trilogy. Pathfinder and only Pathfinder should be the focus. Not previous books of 3.5. Otherwise why bother going through all the trouble and time working and promting your own game. To myself that is very counter productive.

I am not saying do it now just don't take forever. To me Pathfinder feels uncomplete. Still very useable and workable but missing psionmics and epic levels. Sure I can buy the 3.5 verison of the books but I'm using Pathfinder not 3.5. Telling me to use the competiton books is not a very smart thing to do imo. It's not a big thing and I will still play Pathfinder. Don't be surprsied if I will ask ever now and then for the Epic level/Psionic books.

The irony here is that those who do not want to buy Pathinfer are huge 3.5 fans and hate 4E. While I like 4E and DM a game.
Liberty's Edge
Lyingbastard wrote:
The book's been out a whole 3 months. If you're getting into Epic Level issues already, slow down the experience progression and/or start everyone at level one. I've never had a character even make it to level 20, so Epic Level campaigns are a bit beyond my experience.

You do realize that some gamers who bought Pathfinder are not starting at first level but actually continuing their games right. Converting them over rather then starting over. So for some Epic levels are needed.

James Jacobs wrote:
Ignatz wrote:
Uuh Hopefully not to much optional stuff. When things started getting in to the skills and powers stuff is when things stared loosing cohesion for me. new classes great! How people build characters drasticly different not so much.
There'll be a fair amount of new stuff... but the point we're hoping to achieve here is to get it all done in this one single volume. We don't really have an interest in continually churning out APG after APG over and over. We're hoping to cover most of what we need and want to do with rules expansions for base classes in this one book, and then going forward have different themed rulebooks. (There might be an Asian book, for example, that talks about new options you can apply to existing classes to give them an Asian feel, but that's different in my opinion than a bunch of new options not tied to a specific type of campaign.)

One word ..Awesome

Ignatz
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
memorax wrote:
Lyingbastard wrote:
The book's been out a whole 3 months. If you're getting into Epic Level issues already, slow down the experience progression and/or start everyone at level one. I've never had a character even make it to level 20, so Epic Level campaigns are a bit beyond my experience.
You do realize that some gamers who bought Pathfinder are not starting at first level but actually continuing their games right. Converting them over rather then starting over. So for some Epic levels are needed.

But the whole point is that you can continue to use your current material, whatever it might be. And as James just pointed out, the Epic material for 3.0 did not come out for a couple years after 3.0 came out. You can't expect any company to come out with Epic Rules, that require a lot of testing and work to fit in with what they've done so far to come out too fast.

I can understand wanting more, but I personally want it done right, and so far Paizo has not disappointed. If folks want fast, use the old material until the new is available.

Some people, such as myself, want my games to go past 20th-level. Not all of us see 20th-level as the limit, just a breaking point (like 5th level, and 10th-level feels like to us).

My group is heavily inspired by japanese anime and comic books, so yes, I'd like to run a very comic-book, anime-inspired, DBZ-action type game where my PCs can play characters that can take on a flight of great red wyrms, eat a tarrasque for breakfast, bring hell to Hell itself, or battle against Tiamat's avatar (and not her aspect). So an epic-level Pathfinder book would be just the key to acquire the ruleset a DM would need, and the game material a group of epic-level characters can scan through to build that sort of character. Sometimes my players don't get the kind of character they imagine unless they can take it to epic-level (due to multiclassing).

Fortunately, my games start, always, at 1st-level so the chances of my players (who make multiple characters frequently) actually attaining a set of epic level characters is far off. But, I am hoping, when that day comes that Paizo can support that style of gameplay for us. The sooner the better.
Paizo Employee Creative Director
memorax wrote:
Lyingbastard wrote:
The book's been out a whole 3 months. If you're getting into Epic Level issues already, slow down the experience progression and/or start everyone at level one. I've never had a character even make it to level 20, so Epic Level campaigns are a bit beyond my experience.
You do realize that some gamers who bought Pathfinder are not starting at first level but actually continuing their games right. Converting them over rather then starting over. So for some Epic levels are needed.

I do realize that. I also realize we can't release Pathfinder versions of every 3.5 book ever made all at once. We'll get to epic stuff eventually, but it's not gonna be quick.

Liberty's Edge
Gamer Girrl wrote:


But the whole point is that you can continue to use your current material, whatever it might be. And as James just pointed out, the Epic material for 3.0 did not come out for a couple years after 3.0 came out. You can't expect any company to come out with Epic Rules, that require a lot of testing and work to fit in with what they've done so far to come out too fast.+

I understand that. I am not the one Paizo has to convince. I have the core book and I am in a game. I never said now. I can wait. Unfortunatetly those on the fence with regards to PF will use it as a reason not to get the game and point it out as a disadvantage. Some want instant things their way right now and no amount of explanation or logic will satisfy them.

Gamer Girrl wrote:


I can understand wanting more, but I personally want it done right, and so far Paizo has not disappointed. If folks want fast, use the old material until the new is available.

While their are a few things I do like about PF overall I like it and I am satisifed. As I can wait. Telling someone who wants to get into PF but is unsure that they should get the core book and use other 3.5 material to fill the gaps just is not a great selling point. As I said I am sold I knew that by buying PF that I would need to fill in some gaps in the rules. I am not happy about it I will be honest yet when I bough the PF core book I knew what I was getting into. Those who like 3.5 and are on the fence will need more convincing imo.

Liberty's Edge
James Jacobs wrote:


I do realize that. I also realize we can't release Pathfinder versions of every 3.5 book ever made all at once. We'll get to epic stuff eventually, but it's not gonna be quick.

I realize that. I respect the time and effort you put into PF. You must be doing something right if you have a 4E fan buying your books. I can wait and be patient. On a somewhat realted note will you ever do a PF equivalent of Savage species? Or Manual of the p[lanes?

Sovereign Court
memorax wrote:
Some want instant things their way right now and no amount of explanation or logic will satisfy them.

Exactly. There a lot of immature and melodramatic gamers out there (and on these boards). No matter what Paizo does, many will still find reason to complain and possibly not buy their products. If they can't be patient and wait until the time, manpower and money are there to make a quality book, then I don' see why Paizo should worry about "customers" like that.

Here, here!
Paizo Employee Creative Director
memorax wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:


I do realize that. I also realize we can't release Pathfinder versions of every 3.5 book ever made all at once. We'll get to epic stuff eventually, but it's not gonna be quick.
I realize that. I respect the time and effort you put into PF. You must be doing something right if you have a 4E fan buying your books. I can wait and be patient. On a somewhat realted note will you ever do a PF equivalent of Savage species? Or Manual of the p[lanes?

Eventually, I suspect that we'll be doing versions of most of those books... but we also want to do NEW content that's not simply aping a 3rd edition book, of course. There'll probably be a pretty good mix between the two types of book in the end, I hope.

memorax wrote:


I work in retail and I can tell you promoting your product while promting 3.5 at the same time imo is a mistake. .

I don't think this is Paizo's philosophy, and I hope it never becomes so.

The OGL was an open source movement, based on the (correct) assertion that if there is cross-compatibility for mainstream RPGs, then all RPGs and players will benefit.

It would be a very sad day for me to see Paizo become adversarial to other 3.5 publishers or to the original material. Thankfully, they appear to have taken the opposite path.
Paizo Employee Creative Director

Yup... Paizo fully embraces the open gaming movement. We want folks to buy our stuff, of course, but we also want folks to buy OTHER games as well. We often use material from other publishers, such as Green Ronin, Wizards of the Coast, Necromancer games, etc. That's the whole point of having the rules be open content. Seeing folks use 3.5 material with Pathfinder is really refreshing and delightful. I love it!
The Exchange RPG Superstar 2009 Top 4

...and besides, soon 3.5 players will not have a choose but to wait for Paizo to take their time and release their books the right way. It's getting harder and harder to find the old 3.5 books out there. They're gone from most stores, they're gone from most websites and the people that have them are hording them, like myself.
Liberty's Edge
Callous Jack wrote:


Exactly. There a lot of immature and melodramatic gamers out there (and on these boards). No matter what Paizo does, many will still find reason to complain and possibly not buy their products. If they can't be patient and wait until the time, manpower and money are there to make a quality book, then I don' see why Paizo should worry about "customers" like that.

while I agree Paizo imo caanot just ignore any segment of the fanbase. 3.5 and to a certain extent Pathfinder is a niche market imo. Unlike 4E they do not have that large a pool of fans.

Liberty's Edge
James Jacobs wrote:
Yup... Paizo fully embraces the open gaming movement. We want folks to buy our stuff, of course, but we also want folks to buy OTHER games as well. We often use material from other publishers, such as Green Ronin, Wizards of the Coast, Necromancer games, etc. That's the whole point of having the rules be open content. Seeing folks use 3.5 material with Pathfinder is really refreshing and delightful. I love it!

I admire that. Except by doing so Pathfinder will always be seen as a clone of 3.5 and not Pathfinder on its own. So you cannot react negatively if some of the fanbase say that and some do. It is nice to be everybody friend in business but you have to think of your product first everyone else second. Not saying do not promote any other products just do not use those others products as a reason to not publish the rules needed in Pathfinder. Or keep the advertising of their products to a miniumum. Otherwise imo I think it will hurt sales of your product in the long run.

Paizo Employee Director of Brand Strategy
memorax wrote:
Except by doing so Pathfinder will always be seen as a clone of 3.5 and not Pathfinder on its own. So you cannot react negatively if some of the fanbase say that and some do. It is nice to be everybody friend in business but you have to think of your product first everyone else second. Not saying do not promote any other products just do not use those others products as a reason to not publish the rules needed in Pathfinder. Or keep the advertising of their products to a miniumum. Otherwise imo I think it will hurt sales of your product in the long run.

Why make a book of templates, for example, when there's nothing wrong with using a template here and there from Green Ronin's Advanced Player's Guide? Using open gaming content in an adventure or sourcebook isn't the same as telling someone to go out and buy that product. So far, and there are several years of history to refer back to, Paizo's M.O. has been to release whatever support content a product required. To date, that's been mostly setting information to support adventures, but if there's an adventure that calls for psionics or epic or savage species or Asian-themed classes, I'd bet more than I could afford to lose that Paizo will release the rules necessary for their customers to be able to use said adventure. All that said, I don't see how not releasing epic or psionic rules or whatever is hurting sales. You can't have bad sales of a book you haven't published, and it's not like people are going to go out and buy an alternative publication somewhere else because no one else is publishing these rules for PFRPG at the moment.

[edit]Additionally, Paizo is not just a publisher; they also have one of the internet's largest retail stores for gaming content. So even if someone else publishes a book that Paizo references, when their fans go to buy it, Paizo stands to make money on them as well. They don't do a daily store blog advertising other publishers' products out of the kindness of their hearts, though I imagine they're more likely to advertise and support products that also contribute to the Open Gaming movement.
Sovereign Court
memorax wrote:


while I agree Paizo imo caanot just ignore any segment of the fanbase. 3.5 and to a certain extent Pathfinder is a niche market imo. Unlike 4E they do not have that large a pool of fans.

The rational fans will realize that Paizo is doing the best they can and will meet their needs (Epic, Psionics, Savage Species, etc.) as their resources allow. The ones that freak out and declare Paizo lazy, selfish or money-grubbing because of their policies ... well, imo I don't see the loss there. Paizo does not need WotC numbers to be successful, they seem to be doing just fine.

memorax wrote:
I admire that. Except by doing so Pathfinder will always be seen as a clone of 3.5 and not Pathfinder on its own. So you cannot react negatively if some of the fanbase say that and some do.

What's wrong with being a clone? 3.5 was a successful edition. So successful that many people did not want to move on to another edition, they just wanted some tweaks. Paizo is catering to that demand and trying to rope in as many 3.5 gamers as as possible.

I think they are more concerned with making their own mark with Golarion and all it's flavor.
memorax wrote:
Callous Jack wrote:


Exactly. There a lot of immature and melodramatic gamers out there (and on these boards). No matter what Paizo does, many will still find reason to complain and possibly not buy their products. If they can't be patient and wait until the time, manpower and money are there to make a quality book, then I don' see why Paizo should worry about "customers" like that.
while I agree Paizo imo caanot just ignore any segment of the fanbase. 3.5 and to a certain extent Pathfinder is a niche market imo. Unlike 4E they do not have that large a pool of fans.

I'm not so sure about that seeing as my group and I can't find a Pathfinder core rule book to even buy. We pre-orded on Amazon and still haven't got the books. That didn't happen with 4E when we bought it. Now maybe 4E just had a lot more books for sale but from what I read Paizo first printing of the core seemed to sell out quite quickly. You don't sell all your books that fast with a limited fan base. I mean that's pretty impressive.

I think the minority would be those holding out for an Epic book. I mean I wouldn't mind one but it's not something that would hold me back. When it comes out it comes out and waiting 2-3 years for it is not unreasonable.
Dark Archive
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
memorax wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Yup... Paizo fully embraces the open gaming movement. We want folks to buy our stuff, of course, but we also want folks to buy OTHER games as well. We often use material from other publishers, such as Green Ronin, Wizards of the Coast, Necromancer games, etc. That's the whole point of having the rules be open content. Seeing folks use 3.5 material with Pathfinder is really refreshing and delightful. I love it!
I admire that. Except by doing so Pathfinder will always be seen as a clone of 3.5 and not Pathfinder on its own. So you cannot react negatively if some of the fanbase say that and some do. It is nice to be everybody friend in business but you have to think of your product first everyone else second. Not saying do not promote any other products just do not use those others products as a reason to not publish the rules needed in Pathfinder. Or keep the advertising of their products to a miniumum. Otherwise imo I think it will hurt sales of your product in the long run.

Hmm I get your stance, I disagree but I understand your point of view. But Paizo has said their policy and what their plans are. So I only ask... why are you still debating it? It is starting to look like beating a dead horse for the sake of beating a dead horse. Which i fully admit can be fun, especially when they explode... but er anyways. Yeah.

Callous Jack wrote:
Paizo does not need WotC numbers to be successful, they seem to be doing just fine.

This is a very true and good statement. Paizo have boosted thier fanbase massively with PFRPG, but their still smaller, and growing to accomodate a market, not trying to keep a hold on a huge and disparate one.

I'd rather paizo do it right when they can and don't drop everything else for a book that isn't wanted by everybody. It'd be good to have, but the majority prefer to play from low to the just under 12 level bracket, its a niche addition to the rules, and far from a requirement.
Liberty's Edge

It is not a big thing and I do not want to fill up a thread talking about one of their upcoming books with another topic entirely. I am not doing so to be negative. Otherwise why buy Pathfinder in the first place. It would be counterprosuctive to do so. I want Pathfinder and by extension Paizo to be around for a long time.
memorax wrote:
Callous Jack wrote:


Exactly. There a lot of immature and melodramatic gamers out there (and on these boards). No matter what Paizo does, many will still find reason to complain and possibly not buy their products. If they can't be patient and wait until the time, manpower and money are there to make a quality book, then I don' see why Paizo should worry about "customers" like that.
while I agree Paizo imo caanot just ignore any segment of the fanbase. 3.5 and to a certain extent Pathfinder is a niche market imo. Unlike 4E they do not have that large a pool of fans.

Not to go off-topic, but I still have yet to see this super-sized 4E fan base everyone keeps talking about. Of the dozens of gamers I have met in the metropolitan area here in STL, a vast majority despise 4E and the various gaming shops I go to here either have no D&D games running because people gave up on WotC, have both a 4E and a 3.5e game running, or just non-4E D&D games running.

Meanwhile, the same folks stick with 3.5E or have signed onto Pathfinder with wild abandon. So I think it's safe to say Paizo has their fanbase as large as 4E (and I dare not say larger than 4E, only because I believe the ones that didn't go with Pathfinder just decided to stick with 3.5e or some earlier edition to do what WotC failed to do...which was remember their roots).
Razz wrote:
memorax wrote:
Callous Jack wrote:


Exactly. There a lot of immature and melodramatic gamers out there (and on these boards). No matter what Paizo does, many will still find reason to complain and possibly not buy their products. If they can't be patient and wait until the time, manpower and money are there to make a quality book, then I don' see why Paizo should worry about "customers" like that.
while I agree Paizo imo caanot just ignore any segment of the fanbase. 3.5 and to a certain extent Pathfinder is a niche market imo. Unlike 4E they do not have that large a pool of fans.

Not to go off-topic, but I still have yet to see this super-sized 4E fan base everyone keeps talking about. Of the dozens of gamers I have met in the metropolitan area here in STL, a vast majority despise 4E and the various gaming shops I go to here either have no D&D games running because people gave up on WotC, have both a 4E and a 3.5e game running, or just non-4E D&D games running.

Meanwhile, the same folks stick with 3.5E or have signed onto Pathfinder with wild abandon. So I think it's safe to say Paizo has their fanbase as large as 4E (and I dare not say larger than 4E, only because I believe the ones that didn't go with Pathfinder just decided to stick with 3.5e or some earlier edition to do what WotC failed to do...which was remember their roots).

I noticed same thing. I think the novelty of 4E has worn off a bit. I know I didn't mind the game. It was fun but after the first run through it was kind of boring the next game. Even with different characters the game felt exactly the same. Maybe new books would help but then I found Pathfinder and I know where my money is going now.

I don't know if it's roots thing or if it's just that Paizo has such great content that it just make me want to play Pathfinder. The Adventure Paths are great. The core rule refreshed things and the Advance players guide has me excited. I love the Chronicles and Companions and I'm just checking out the flip maps and map packs. A guy could go broke here quick. This what I found was missing WotC with 4E. Not enough content to keep my attention.
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