Pathfinder Player Companion: Adventurer's Armory (PFRPG)

can be used to make flurry of blows attacks

Correct. It has the "monk" weapon feature.

can deal monk's unarmed damage instead of the default 1d3

Incorrect. It deals the listed damage

cannot be used to make a stunning fist attack

Correct. You are not unarmed when using them.

cannot benefit from an amulet of mighty fists

Correct. It is not an unarmed attack or a natural weapon.

Good job guys at breaking that one useful Monk weapon there. Any rationale behind the nerf?

Good job guys at breaking that one useful Monk weapon there. Any rationale behind the nerf?

Treating brass knuckles, gauntlets, spiked gauntlets, cesti, and rope gauntlets as "unarmed attacks" doesn't make a lot of sense (because you're not unarmed, you have metal/leather/rope/etc. there).

It also brings up weird questions like

* If I have +5 flaming brass knuckles/gauntlets/spiked gauntlets, am I doing unarmed strike damage, the listed weapon damage, or both?

* How do the magical properties on those weapons interact with my monk unarmed damage? Does this make the ki focus properly useless on these types of weapons?

* Am I doing monk unarmed damage plus enhancement bonus plus 1d6 fire?

* How does this interact with an amulet of mighty fists?

* How does this interact with properties like brilliant energy?

* What about creatures that harm attackers who hit them, am I considered armed and safe or unarmed and not safe?

Making all of these weapons act 100% like weapons and not refer to unarmed attacks at all means these questions go away.

Making all of these weapons act 100% like weapons and not refer to unarmed attacks at all means these questions go away.

What this change does is bombs monks back into being that one melee class who has the biggest problem with DR (due to being based on multiple weak attacks) yet can't reliably make their best offensive option (unarmed FOB) deal with DR, in particular with material-based DR (cold iron/silver/etc.).

It would have been far better to actually take on the brass knuckles issues (and honestly most of those you listed are non-issues, the only major being Weapon Finesse/Focus problem), instead of kicking the monk in his nuts.

I reserve my final call in case Ultimate Combat does something to help monks with DR, but what I see is something that really makes me lose some faith here.

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

Making all of these weapons act 100% like weapons and not refer to unarmed attacks at all means these questions go away.

What this change does is bombs monks back into being that one melee class who has the biggest problem with DR (due to being based on multiple weak attacks) yet can't reliably make their best offensive option (unarmed FOB) deal with DR, in particular with material-based DR (cold iron/silver/etc.).

It would have been far better to actually take on the brass knuckles issues (and honestly most of those you listed are non-issues, the only major being Weapon Finesse/Focus problem), instead of kicking the monk in his nuts.

I reserve my final call in case Ultimate Combat does something to help monks with DR, but what I see is something that really makes me lose some faith here.

Can't you just use an amulet of mighty fist to get a big enough magic bonus to get through the DR?

EDIT: +3 gets you through cold iron/ silver. +4 through adamantine. +5 through the alignments.

Treating brass knuckles, gauntlets, spiked gauntlets, cesti, and rope gauntlets as "unarmed attacks" doesn't make a lot of sense (because you're not unarmed, you have metal/leather/rope/etc. there).

I concur. Of course, I think treating brass knuckles, gauntlets, spiked gauntlets, cesti, and rope gauntlets as separate weapons doesn't make much sense either.

Gorbacz wrote:

Good job guys at breaking that one useful Monk weapon there. Any rationale behind the nerf?

Treating brass knuckles, gauntlets, spiked gauntlets, cesti, and rope gauntlets as "unarmed attacks" doesn't make a lot of sense (because you're not unarmed, you have metal/leather/rope/etc. there).

I have to say I agree with Gorbacz. It's also going to cause hella confusion because as noted, there's both the AA and the APG entries, and the wording right now is very clear in the PRD (which people will use most often for reference) that monks use their unarmed damage values for brass knuckles attack. (Even if it's going to be changed, it's going to cause a lot of confusion since the change is so drastic; if you end up with players working off multiple printings it's going to be a mess.)

Monks are proficient with brass knuckles and can use their monk unarmed damage when fighting with them.

Please correct me if I've missed something, but I don't see anything saying that attacking with brass knuckles is an unarmed strike--simply that a monk can deal his unarmed DAMAGE, with this weapon with which the monk would actually be armed.

The monk is wielding a weapon, just like a quarterstaff or kama. Simply this weapon gives the monk an extra benefit that he can do a higher value of damage with it, that is equal to his unarmed strike damage.

It also brings up weird questions like

Most of these questions I don't see as being all that controversial, really, with that clarification.

* If I have +5 flaming brass knuckles/gauntlets/spiked gauntlets, am I doing unarmed strike damage, the listed weapon damage, or both?

If you're a monk you deal an amount of damage equal to your unarmed damage+5+1d6 fire; if you're not a monk, you deal 1d3 damage+5+1d6 fire. The monk is still armed with the brass knuckles, and is not making an unarmed strike, just using that damage value.

* How do the magical properties on those weapons interact with my monk unarmed damage? Does this make the ki focus properly useless on these types of weapons?

Does wearing an amulet of mighty fists make ki focus useless?

Does wielding ANY magical monk weapon make ki focus useless?

If you consider that a problem, it existed before brass knuckles did.

Plus there's a zillion other uses for ki and wielding a magical weapon--being brass knuckles or anything else--just makes a monk feel more free to get more use out of his class features, something desperately needed, in my opinion and personal experience.

* How does this interact with an amulet of mighty fists?

Because it's clear that you are armed with the brass knuckles, and simply using the better damage value, you would not use the amulet of mighty fist's abilities when attacking with the brass knuckles.

Now, in fairness, I see one problem with this: because a monk can use his whole body as a weapon, I could see someone arguing he could get the brass knuckles bonuses off of strikes with his fists, while he could get separate bonuses off his amulet from strikes off his head, knees, feet, elbows, etc.

OTOH, if the monk's paid for both magic items and he's rolling separate attacks with the correct bonuses, is that really a problem?

And at any rate, this could be clarified pretty easily in the errata, WITHOUT requiring a dramatic rewrite of a valuable weapon that is a complete reversal of the rules as currently printed.

* How does this interact with properties like brilliant energy?

Again, it's clear that brass knuckles are a weapon, so they can be made into brilliant energy. If it's for some reason problematic that someone can make brilliant energy attacks with their reinforced fists, then it's a problem for ANYONE capable of wielding brass knuckles--which is nearly everyone, since they're a simple weapon--not just monks. Am I missing something else?

* What about creatures that harm attackers who hit them, am I considered armed and safe or unarmed and not safe?

Brass knuckles are clearly a weapon, and you are armed. Nothing has ever said, to my knowledge, that brass knuckles are not a weapon. Simply that monks do more damage with those weapons.

Making all of these weapons act 100% like weapons and not refer to unarmed attacks at all means these questions go away.

It is possible to clarify that text without taking away a now commonly used weapon for the monks because of the advantages it has provided to the class up until this change. I don't see anyone asking brass knuckles be treated as an unarmed strike--simply that they continue to work as written in the APG, in that they do an amount of damage equal to the monk's unarmed damage (but it is not an unarmed strike, obviously).

Gorbacz wrote:

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

Making all of these weapons act 100% like weapons and not refer to unarmed attacks at all means these questions go away.

What this change does is bombs monks back into being that one melee class who has the biggest problem with DR (due to being based on multiple weak attacks) yet can't reliably make their best offensive option (unarmed FOB) deal with DR, in particular with material-based DR (cold iron/silver/etc.).

It would have been far better to actually take on the brass knuckles issues (and honestly most of those you listed are non-issues, the only major being Weapon Finesse/Focus problem), instead of kicking the monk in his nuts.

I reserve my final call in case Ultimate Combat does something to help monks with DR, but what I see is something that really makes me lose some faith here.

Can't you just use an amulet of mighty fist to get a big enough magic bonus to get through the DR?

EDIT: +3 gets you through cold iron/ silver. +4 through adamantine. +5 through the alignments.

Why do I have to wait until I have 23k gold to have something that other martial classes can have for far less, read: use my most efficient attack overcoming the target DR?

Also, some of these classes (2h users, specifically) worry about the DR far less than Monk, who relies on a multiple number of low-dmg attacks?

Quote:

can deal monk's unarmed damage instead of the default 1d3

Incorrect. It deals the listed damage

Your explanations don't really tell me way this change was made. Even as a light melee weapon, saying that it does "can use their monk unarmed damage when fighting with them" works the exact same way.

To be honest, I don't really feel like going with what you say because after Adventurer's Armory came out, I asked you if the brass knuckles did monk unarmed damage. You answered with a definite yes.

Some time later, after some contemplation and discussion among other developers you posted that brass knuckles didn't do monk unarmed damage.

Then the Advanced Player's Guide came out a while after that and that actually says that the brass knuckles do monk unarmed damage (Monks are proficient with brass knuckles and can use their monk unarmed damage when fighting with them.)

And another year later it's changed again to not dealing monk damage for no explained reason.

I'm pretty certain that every time, you would have said that this latest answer was the final answer and that it would be not be changing in the near future. For my normal games this isn't really a massive problem, the GM can pick the ruling he prefers and we can just move on from there. But for my PFS game I am not sure what to tell the party monk (again) who has brass knuckles because the answer keeps on changing. His brass knuckles seem to either be his favored method of dealing damage or a waste of thousands of gold pieces.

I don't expect you to change the answer just because I prefer it the other way, but I would like to point out how annoying this is from the player level when the head GM (for PFS play) keeps on changing how an item works for a reason that they never seem to explain to any satisfaction.

To be honest, I don't really feel like going with what you say because after Adventurer's Armory came out, I asked you if the brass knuckles did monk unarmed damage. You answered with a definite yes.

Some time later, after some contemplation and discussion among other developers you posted that brass knuckles didn't do monk unarmed damage.
Then the Advanced Player's Guide came out a while after that and that actually says that the brass knuckles do monk unarmed damage (Monks are proficient with brass knuckles and can use their monk unarmed damage when fighting with them.)

As I stated earlier, the APG stats were taken from pre-errata AA, then changed (not by me), and the APG went to print. Then we updated AA, but it was too late to change the APG.

The changes to the brass knuckles occurred after people pointed out a bunch of issues and questions with them in AA. The version in the updated AA follows from a discussion Jason and I had about those issues and how the brass knuckles stats are presented in the APG. This isn't just *me* making an arbitrary decision about how *I* want the weapon to work.

Blazej wrote:

To be honest, I don't really feel like going with what you say because after Adventurer's Armory came out, I asked you if the brass knuckles did monk unarmed damage. You answered with a definite yes.

Some time later, after some contemplation and discussion among other developers you posted that brass knuckles didn't do monk unarmed damage.
Then the Advanced Player's Guide came out a while after that and that actually says that the brass knuckles do monk unarmed damage (Monks are proficient with brass knuckles and can use their monk unarmed damage when fighting with them.)

As I stated earlier, the APG stats were taken from pre-errata AA, then changed (not by me), and the APG went to print. Then we updated AA, but it was too late to change the APG.

The changes to the brass knuckles occurred after people pointed out a bunch of issues and questions with them in AA. The version in the updated AA follows from a discussion Jason and I had about those issues and how the brass knuckles stats are presented in the APG. This isn't just *me* making an arbitrary decision about how *I* want the weapon to work.

I just read the other thread where you posted that comment. I was only reading this thread so I missed that explanation. With that the events makes more sense than what the order of brass knuckle appearances implied.

Following the release of the Advanced Player's Guide, I had felt that I was monitoring any thread discussing the brass knuckles to see if there was any indication if that set of brass knuckles was correct. I had not seen any comments from developers about it nor any FAQs/Errata related to it, so I assumed that was the final form of the item. The only questions that I saw that popped up about it related to whether it benefited from amulet of mighty fists or if it could be used to deliver stunning fists (or other effects that required unarmed attacks) which I felt were unrelated to the increased damage.

I never intended to make it seem like you were making arbitrary decisions because I'm sure that the change isn't make without thought or discussion. However, I am noting that I would have prefered to know sooner after the release of the APG that those brass knuckles were not correct. As it is, this errata feels more random coming a year following the APG as it sort of felt like the item was mostly stable.

I know things have been busy for a long while and that there may not have been time to do post definitive errata right after a books release, but even if I had seen any comment following the APG that the line about monk damage in brass knuckles shouldn't have gotten in and that it may be changed in the future this wouldn't feel as if it were coming from nowhere. Of course there are a lot of threads and, like how I missed your explanation how the brass knuckles printings and discussion occurred, I could have just missed that discussion. If possible, I would suggest that if things have a strong chance of changing, that I would love to see it in an FAQ type location. That way when my PFS players get something, I might be better equipped to tell them that it may be changing in the near future.

Edit: Long story short, I think you and everyone else there are doing great jobs. I just have had a couple problems and I believe that things hopefully can be improved upon to avoid them in the future.

I understand your frustration. We, too, are frustrated about this chain of events, and hindered by our lack of time to push the FAQ as hard as we could have to provide that sort of information. Fortunately, I think we'll be able to stay on top of this sort of thing in the future, and (with the FAQ taking a more prominent place on the website), people will become used to checking it for this sort of information.

I'm glad to hear that and thank you.

sigh Well there goes that gameplan.

Could we please have a DR/enhancement option for monks that doesn't wreck its flavor or overly tax it as if it were a monster with multiple natural attacks now?

It's hard not to be a little bitter about the state of the monk after all of this.

I get the developer frustration about how it all played out, but damn...

sigh Well there goes that gameplan.

Could we please have a DR/enhancement option for monks that doesn't wreck its flavor or overly tax it as if it were a monster with multiple natural attacks now?

It's hard not to be a little bitter about the state of the monk after all of this.

I get the developer frustration about how it all played out, but damn...

I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I was thinking that perhaps you should request the type of monk you want from the 3pps. If there is enough support I bet one would be made.

Mikaze wrote:

sigh Well there goes that gameplan.

Could we please have a DR/enhancement option for monks that doesn't wreck its flavor or overly tax it as if it were a monster with multiple natural attacks now?

It's hard not to be a little bitter about the state of the monk after all of this.

I get the developer frustration about how it all played out, but damn...

I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I was thinking that perhaps you should request the type of monk you want from the 3pps. If there is enough support I bet one would be made.

I wouldn't even know where to start... I've made so many threads and posts asking for specific monk stuff(and for other classes) that I fear it's probably seen and dismissed as spam. Hell, I feel guilty every time I start a thread on the subject now just because the devs have taken so much heat already.

I'd love it if a 3PP would put those options out there. I'd make them available to my players at least, and have already made options myself for them. But it doesn't help me much when I'm the player and the GM wants to run everything as official as possible.

It's just been a rough roller-coaster with the monk. Things seem to get better but there's always a catch. Then this happened. I hated the flavor but at least, as I originally understood it, it offered a sound mechanical base to reflavor. Now it's back to the Amulet of Mighty Fists and paying 2.5 times as much as the fighter for the same freedom in describing your attacks.

Elorebaen wrote:

Mikaze wrote:

sigh Well there goes that gameplan.

Could we please have a DR/enhancement option for monks that doesn't wreck its flavor or overly tax it as if it were a monster with multiple natural attacks now?

It's hard not to be a little bitter about the state of the monk after all of this.

I get the developer frustration about how it all played out, but damn...

I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I was thinking that perhaps you should request the type of monk you want from the 3pps. If there is enough support I bet one would be made.

I wouldn't even know where to start... I've made so many threads and posts asking for specific monk stuff(and for other classes) that I fear it's probably seen and dismissed as spam. Hell, I feel guilty every time I start a thread on the subject now just because the devs have taken so much heat already.

I'd love it if a 3PP would put those options out there. I'd make them available to my players at least, and have already made options myself for them. But it doesn't help me much when I'm the player and the GM wants to run everything as official as possible.

It's just been a rough roller-coaster with the monk. Things seem to get better but there's always a catch. Then this happened. I hated the flavor but at least, as I originally understood it, it offered a sound mechanical base to reflavor. Now it's back to the Amulet of Mighty Fists and paying 2.5 times as much as the fighter for the same freedom in describing your attacks.

I HATE having to have a list of fiddly house rules, but one of mine will have to be "go with 1st printing of APG for brass knucks" and not this ret-con.

PFS Monk players must be seething--or will, when word of the change gets around.

PFS Monk players must be seething--or will, when word of the change gets around.

At this point I wonder why leaving it well enough alone isn't an option. There haven't exactly been a lot of people clamoring for brass knuckles to be "fixed" and it REALLY helped monk players out.

It wouldn't be so bad if something like tattoos, hadnwraps, self-enhancement rituals, or just a plain old Amulet of Unarmed Strike And Unarmed Strike ONLY were made available, but from the sound of things Ultimate Combat didn't bring any new magic items for monks into the game.

And who knows how long it will be befroe we get another book opportunity to get any of that stuff?

sigh Well there goes that gameplan.

Could we please have a DR/enhancement option for monks that doesn't wreck its flavor or overly tax it as if it were a monster with multiple natural attacks now?

It's hard not to be a little bitter about the state of the monk after all of this.

I get the developer frustration about how it all played out, but damn...

I second this. Is there any mechanical reason at all why Monks are still second-class citizens to other classes in this aspect? Monk unarmed attacks count as a single weapon, they don't have two arm attacks and a bite attack. As such, the extra cost of the Amulet of Mighty Fists is a completely arbitrary class tax which severely penalizes the Monk for no discernable reason at all. Since Monks are heavily reliant on their unarmed attacks, this is a definite vital issue for one of the eleven core classes.

Why hasn't this been fixed, although it is a much more pressing issue than fixing Brass Knuckles? Why are Monks always told to get to the back of the bus?

As someone who literally JUST got done telling the above two posters to stop whining about the monk being underpowered and build to its strengths, I have to say, this nerf is ridiculous, and did NOT need to happen. It pretty much vindicates the complaints. Monks are still playable and workable, but...not really as "unarmed" combatants after this. And that's one of the biggest draws of the monk, is that it's supposed to make unarmed combat viable.

Edit: I understand that this isn't all chocolate and roses for the devs either, and I get that sometimes things can be out of people's control, etc. HOWEVER! You're the devs, and the outcry has been pretty clearly in the same direction, pretty big, and relatively fast. The people have spoken. If nothing is done, retracted it will be disappointing to, apparently, a good deal of the fanbase, but hey, lots of people protested guns and slingers of them, but they happened anyway. Mmm. Y'all's move, I guess.

Edit again: Still. Makes not a lick of sense that my master martial artist should hit someone really really hard, dealing as much damage as, say, an earth-breaker, with a punch, then put on his brass knuckles (Or rope, spiked gauntlet, etc), adding significant weight, heft, hardness to his punch. Using the same form, style, motion, and momentum to strike his opponent. With this added power, but also more weight, he is able to strike at the same speed as he would without (via flurry) and deal about 90% less damage. If anything, that's EXACTLY backwards.

Doesn't make sense from a flavor standpoint. Doesn't make sense from a balance standpoint. Doesn't make sense from a rules standpoint. Doesn't make sense.

As someone who literally JUST got done telling the above two posters to stop whining about the monk being underpowered and build to its strengths,

Oh, and thank your for condescending down to us. Not.

Irulesmost wrote:

As someone who literally JUST got done telling the above two posters to stop whining about the monk being underpowered and build to its strengths,

Oh, and thank your for condescending down to us. Not.

And that's the kind of whining I'm talking about ;p

Oy. This is why the internets are so hard to work with. They add serious negative modifier on pretty much every Charisma-based check (Yes, including UMD), most of the Wisdom ones, and a fair amount of the Int-based ones, and then they limit you to Int, Wis, or Cha-based checks, remove static DCs, and make everything an opposed check versus other (presumably roughly equally leveled) PCs.

Ah well. I appreciate your sarcasm, XD

I harbor no ill feelings, and was making a lighthearted attempt at a comedic appeal to ethos (my ethos for this being that of a person who did not think the monk was underpowered believing that this had gone too far, the comedy being a light jab at two people I had been, moments ago, arguing with on this very topic, indicating that I was won to their side). I do not wish to condescend by overexplaining, but at the same time, wish to clarify. I cannot exchange a chuckle, a blush, a shrug, wink, or any of the other body language or vocal intonation I would normally use for my charisma checks, and so my words will have to do.

But ANYWAY! You can consider this an apology, mate, didn't mean to offend anyone.

But ANYWAY! You can consider this an apology, mate, didn't mean to offend anyone.

np, I am probably also way too touchy on the whole Monk subject. My apologies, too.

Irulesmost wrote:

But ANYWAY! You can consider this an apology, mate, didn't mean to offend anyone.

np, I am probably also way too touchy on the whole Monk subject. My apologies, too.

Well, I'll certainly accept it. Despite all that, it looks like we're still busy arguing in that other thread. Lol. I've no problem with a good argument. Just glad we can at least see eye to eye on not letting it go too far, eh?

Gorbacz wrote:

Good job guys at breaking that one useful Monk weapon there. Any rationale behind the nerf?

Treating brass knuckles, gauntlets, spiked gauntlets, cesti, and rope gauntlets as "unarmed attacks" doesn't make a lot of sense (because you're not unarmed, you have metal/leather/rope/etc. there).

It also brings up weird questions like

* If I have +5 flaming brass knuckles/gauntlets/spiked gauntlets, am I doing unarmed strike damage, the listed weapon damage, or both?

* How do the magical properties on those weapons interact with my monk unarmed damage? Does this make the ki focus properly useless on these types of weapons?

* Am I doing monk unarmed damage plus enhancement bonus plus 1d6 fire?

* How does this interact with an amulet of mighty fists?

* How does this interact with properties like brilliant energy?

* What about creatures that harm attackers who hit them, am I considered armed and safe or unarmed and not safe?

Making all of these weapons act 100% like weapons and not refer to unarmed attacks at all means these questions go away.

please don't take offense, but that list of rationales is hooey. The only one that has even appeared on the boards in the year+ since APG came out was the mighty fist interaction. The rest is a list of questions that never hit the boards (meaning very little concern in the community) and can all be answered with a little common sense and logic.

This feels arbitrary, it was certainly unnecessary, and creates a large mechanical problem for the monk. Why would you possibly consider the use of amulet of mighty fist justified?! Its prohibitively expensive, and denies a class that REALLY needs AC the only available natural armor slot. Its not like you guys have rings of natural armor, right?

Very, very frustrated and disappointed.

Honestly I think its a terrible decision. It was a removal of a gold tax that the monk sorely needed to be competitive with the other classes- and I don't really understand the reasoning behind it. For every 1 person that was confused by the brass knuckles dealing monk damage there were 10 pleased by the change.

It also set a wonderful precedent for the potential to have monks enhance their own ntural attacks at normal cost, handwraps, etc.

Very frustrated by this. I'm just glad i don't have a Monk PFS character.

Gorbacz wrote:

Good job guys at breaking that one useful Monk weapon there. Any rationale behind the nerf?

Treating brass knuckles, gauntlets, spiked gauntlets, cesti, and rope gauntlets as "unarmed attacks" doesn't make a lot of sense (because you're not unarmed, you have metal/leather/rope/etc. there).

It also brings up weird questions like

* If I have +5 flaming brass knuckles/gauntlets/spiked gauntlets, am I doing unarmed strike damage, the listed weapon damage, or both?

* How do the magical properties on those weapons interact with my monk unarmed damage? Does this make the ki focus properly useless on these types of weapons?

* Am I doing monk unarmed damage plus enhancement bonus plus 1d6 fire?

* How does this interact with an amulet of mighty fists?

* How does this interact with properties like brilliant energy?

* What about creatures that harm attackers who hit them, am I considered armed and safe or unarmed and not safe?

Making all of these weapons act 100% like weapons and not refer to unarmed attacks at all means these questions go away.

I agree that having a category of weapons--gauntlets and brass knuckles--that are called "Unarmed Attacks" can lead to some confusion. I presume that meant that attacking with them without Improved Unarmed Strike would give opponents an attack of opportunity. Is that disadvantage now gone?

I do not own a copy of Adventurer's Armory yet. So I do not know what the original text said. On the other hand, the errata to Brass Knuckles says:

• Inside front cover—Under Simple Weapons, move

the Brass Knuckles entry from Unarmed Attacks to
Light Melee Weapons. Delete Unarmed Attacks.
• Inside front cover—In the Brass Knuckles entry,
change Special to “monk.”
• Page 2—In the Brass Knuckles entry, in the second
sentence, remove “with unarmed attacks.”

I presume that the second sentence referred to above matches the Advance Player's Guide sentence, “They allow you to deal lethal damage with unarmed strikes.” This makes me wonder whether the Brass Knuckles text in the AA has a last sentence matching the one in the APG, “Monks are proficient with brass knuckles and can use their monk unarmed damage when fighting with them.”

I see no mention in the AA errata of any changes to that last sentence. Is that because the AA lacked that sentence? Or is it because monks are still proficient with brass knuckles and still can use their monk unarmed damage when fighting with them?

For me, changing Brass Knuckles from Unarmed Attack weapons to Light weapons is perfectly fine, so long as they are still monk weapons, monks still have proficiency with them, and anyone who deals larger than normal unarmed strike damage can deal that larger unarmed strike damage with them.

And yet if you look at the Emei piercer the description appears to make them everything Brass Knuckles are now not (+ plus making unarmed attacks piercing)

Emei Piercer: This weapon is used to augment unarmed
martial techniques. It consists of an 8- to 10-inch-long,
dual-pointed steel spike set on swivels and mounted on a
ring, so that it can be spun around at high speeds when
slipped over the wielder’s ring finger. The ring prevents
the wielder from being disarmed and turns unarmed
strikes into piercing attacks.

"Augment unarmed martial techniques", "turns unarmed strikes into piercing attacks", both of these appear to say that attacks with this weapon are still unarmed strikes. If that's the case, then monks attacking this weapon would still be able to use their unarmed attack damage.

Or am I misreading this?

And yet if you look at the Emei piercer the description appears to make them everything Brass Knuckles are now not (+ plus making unarmed attacks piercing)

Emei Piercer: This weapon is used to augment unarmed
martial techniques. It consists of an 8- to 10-inch-long,
dual-pointed steel spike set on swivels and mounted on a
ring, so that it can be spun around at high speeds when
slipped over the wielder’s ring finger. The ring prevents
the wielder from being disarmed and turns unarmed
strikes into piercing attacks.

"Augment unarmed martial techniques", "turns unarmed strikes into piercing attacks", both of these appear to say that attacks with this weapon are still unarmed strikes. If that's the case, then monks attacking this weapon would still be able to use their unarmed attack damage.

Or am I misreading this?

The key phrase would be "turns unarmed attacks into piercing attacks. It has ceased to be "unarmed" at that point. A piercing attack is not "unarmed".

It also set a wonderful precedent for the potential to have monks enhance their own ntural attacks at normal cost, handwraps, etc.

This is the biggest loss for me. It was useful as a base to work from for reflavoring.

Here's hoping for Ultimate Equipment.

I saw that the AA was updated with an Errata, I'm all for clarifying - however, I wonder why were Throwing Shields not clarified?

Right now it says you can throw it as a Free Action, I presume it is implied to be Unclasped as a Free Action and thrown as a Standard Action.

Else, you start giving out free attacks with a shield throw.

I'm wondering...is Ultimate Equipment going to include EVERTHING from this book? If you have Ultimate Equipment, will there be any point in also having this book? I doubt that Arayam Bismut will be included, but everything else in the book looks like it would be fair game for UE.

i've always thought monk weapons should deal the equivalent damage to their unarmed strike. otherwise at high levels using a weapon becomes a penalty for them, just so they can gain a +2 to trip by using a kama for example.

is it so hard to have the damage for the weapon , in the hands of a monk, scale with their level? 4th level monk w/ a kama: 1d8 instead of 1d6.

then it becomes a property of the weapon, in a monk's hands, being as deadly as their unarmed strikes. so brass knuckles in the monk's hands would naturally scale with the monk.

As I see, the Brass Knucles weren't messy at all. It was just a way to give something to monks to spend their money before getting into the big business (Headbands, Amulet of Mighty fists, Bracers...) since they can't use armor, find most of weapons are useless, and they have no use to wands or scrolls.

But the main thing is, What is NOW the point of Brass Knuckles? Not for a monk, but for anybody. "You are considered armed", yeah, but you are considered armed with a dagger, a mace, or a +5 Vorpal Longsword too, because all of them are weapons. Brass Knukles does lethal damage, but a gauntlet does, too. They allow a monk to use flurry, and so do their unarmed attacks. They have the same damage type as an unarmed (Blunt) as unarmed, and even have the same critical range.

I don't see ANY aplication to this weapon now for anybody. When it allowed monks to use their Unarmed Damage, they had an use: Help monks to fight better. Can anyones tell me some use to this weapon now?

About a silver +1 flaming brass knukle, I see it clear:
"Can I use my +1 silver "brass" knukles with Stuning fist and Ki Strike on that monster that has DR 10/Lawful?"
"No, because your Brass "silver" knuckles are silver, not adamantine, and still are a weapon so you cannot do stuning fist. But you can kick the monster with your Ki Strike and even try to Stun."

It just took one line to clean any mess. :)

Gorbacz wrote:

Good job guys at breaking that one useful Monk weapon there. Any rationale behind the nerf?

Treating brass knuckles, gauntlets, spiked gauntlets, cesti, and rope gauntlets as "unarmed attacks" doesn't make a lot of sense (because you're not unarmed, you have metal/leather/rope/etc. there).

It also brings up weird questions like

* If I have +5 flaming brass knuckles/gauntlets/spiked gauntlets, am I doing unarmed strike damage, the listed weapon damage, or both?

* How do the magical properties on those weapons interact with my monk unarmed damage? Does this make the ki focus properly useless on these types of weapons?

* Am I doing monk unarmed damage plus enhancement bonus plus 1d6 fire?

* How does this interact with an amulet of mighty fists?

* How does this interact with properties like brilliant energy?

* What about creatures that harm attackers who hit them, am I considered armed and safe or unarmed and not safe?

Making all of these weapons act 100% like weapons and not refer to unarmed attacks at all means these questions go away.

Do Monks wear shoes? SKR's first sentence would lead me to say that while they might, they can't inflict monk UA dmg if they do. So they must now fight barefoot? What about pants or long sleeves, are elbows or knee strikes out? Headbutts, do these work with the ubiquitous WIS boosting headband?

To the issue of weird questions:

* Unarmed strike damage was allowed with brass knuckles but not the others which is why this is being discussed. So the answer would be UA dmg +5 + 1d6 fire. Simple.

*ki focusstill works like before it just doesn't suck. All of the other properties work like before provided they work with bludgeoning weapons. There are some weird interactions but those are not the fault of the Brass Knuckles (see below).

*Yes, why is this weird?

*This one IS weird. Short answer,it doesn't. Long answer it shows a gap in the rules regarding UA strike, the knuckles should override the amulet but the problem is not the knuckles it's the Amulet (an apparent sacred cow).

*Seriously? Brilliant energy is a +4 modifier (a +5 weapon) and one that is not available until the average campaign's endgame. It's a mod. that I have seldom seen chosen by any player. It's a dumb mod for any Glove like weapon, and nerfing the Brass Knuckles doesn't solve this issue (are my hands now light and passing through inorganic matter? Or just the glove, granting me no benefit whatsoever?) More to the point this is an issue with Brilliant energy (not the knuckles), it's one of those cool sounding mods. that is not well thought out.
Better yet any half decent rules lawyer can attempt to argue that a Brilliant Energy +1 Mithral (brass) Knuckles ARE now unarmed strikes that do Full monk UA damage,get a +1 enhancement, bypass silver DR and work with Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm since they are composed of light and thus not subject to the rope/leather/metal arguement of weapon enhanced unarmed strikes.
I'll up the ante here on this one. The Monk is described in the class description as being able to use virtually any appendage as an UA strike. If a monk is wearing aBrilliant Energy Amulet of Mighty Fists and his entire body is a weapon, is his entire body now IMMUNE to any damage inflicted by inorganic matter? If so that's worth the cost of a +4 amulet easily. OK maybe not his whole body but if my headbutts are brilliant energy modified, is he immune to the vorpal quality? His head is now composed of light.

*This one is entirely valid yet not solved with the nerf. While it makes sense that I punch a creature coverd in acid with gauntlets I'll take no acid damage. It doesn't make the same sense with Brass Knuckles which provide no actual coverage for my hands.

Honestly there should be an entirely new weapon category to cover the glove-like weapons and apparently boot-like weapons as well. Let them be UA strikes that modify damage for anyone using them, allow any one with Monk UA damage to use the better value for damage, threat range, and critical modifier. Everything in this catagory would be a light weapon for the purposes of feats and dual weidlding. None of these weapons provide enough range to protect a character from taking retributive damage.

Monk weapons are a disaster and always have been. They're inconsistent with virtually identical weapons that lack the monk special quality. i.e. kama and sickle, quarterstaff and bo staff, siangham and shortsword or shortspear. Meteor Hammers are not Monk weapons?

Gorbacz wrote:

Good job guys at breaking that one useful Monk weapon there. Any rationale behind the nerf?

Treating brass knuckles, gauntlets, spiked gauntlets, cesti, and rope gauntlets as "unarmed attacks" doesn't make a lot of sense (because you're not unarmed, you have metal/leather/rope/etc. there).

It also brings up weird questions like

* If I have +5 flaming brass knuckles/gauntlets/spiked gauntlets, am I doing unarmed strike damage, the listed weapon damage, or both?

* How do the magical properties on those weapons interact with my monk unarmed damage? Does this make the ki focus properly useless on these types of weapons?

* Am I doing monk unarmed damage plus enhancement bonus plus 1d6 fire?

* How does this interact with an amulet of mighty fists?

* How does this interact with properties like brilliant energy?

* What about creatures that harm attackers who hit them, am I considered armed and safe or unarmed and not safe?

Making all of these weapons act 100% like weapons and not refer to unarmed attacks at all means these questions go away.

the one thing i have to say about this is.... the brass knuckles say in there description that they channel the force of a punch..in that it should be able to do the unarmed damage of the monk.. but none of the others say it.

as for the interaction to other things it is still a weapon. as such if you hit say a fire elemental.. you are hitting it in melee so you should still take the damage.

for the amulet, it is still a weapon... so i would have to say no. only because it is a weapon. but if you are getting a amulet then why worry about a weapon, your fists will be better.

to be blunt.. only the brass knuckles can i see doing the damage, because of its description and in reality it dose channel the force of a punch. the others have different swings and or ways you attack .. a spiked gauntlet is close but you aren't able to punch as hard

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

Good job guys at breaking that one useful Monk weapon there. Any rationale behind the nerf?

Treating brass knuckles, gauntlets, spiked gauntlets, cesti, and rope gauntlets as "unarmed attacks" doesn't make a lot of sense (because you're not unarmed, you have metal/leather/rope/etc. there).

It also brings up weird questions like

* If I have +5 flaming brass knuckles/gauntlets/spiked gauntlets, am I doing unarmed strike damage, the listed weapon damage, or both?

* How do the magical properties on those weapons interact with my monk unarmed damage? Does this make the ki focus properly useless on these types of weapons?

* Am I doing monk unarmed damage plus enhancement bonus plus 1d6 fire?

* How does this interact with an amulet of mighty fists?

* How does this interact with properties like brilliant energy?

* What about creatures that harm attackers who hit them, am I considered armed and safe or unarmed and not safe?

Making all of these weapons act 100% like weapons and not refer to unarmed attacks at all means these questions go away.

Do Monks wear shoes? SKR's first sentence would lead me to say that while they might, they can't inflict monk UA dmg if they do. So they must now fight barefoot? What about pants or long sleeves, are elbows or knee strikes out? Headbutts, do these work with the ubiquitous WIS boosting headband?

To the issue of weird questions:

* Unarmed strike damage was allowed with brass knuckles but not the others which is why this is being discussed. So the answer would be UA dmg +5 + 1d6 fire. Simple.

*ki focusstill works like before it just doesn't suck. All of the other properties work like before provided they work with bludgeoning weapons. There are some weird interactions but those are not the fault of the Brass Knuckles (see below).

*Yes, why is this weird?

*This one IS weird. Short answer,it doesn't. Long answer it shows a gap in the rules regarding...

you describe it better then i could... in fact i tried lol.

but i agree with you.

The "Brilliant Enervy" thing is not only a matter when we're talking about the Brass Knukles. Also, an small dagger (ine in the hands of a halfling) coulnd't be be enough to trespass the armor of a large creature, and then, what? The same can be said about a brilliant energy brass knukles in the hands of a pure fighter.

As a GM, I just simply houserule that "No, you cannot put Brilliant Energy on brass knukles because it don't make sense". Same thing, any GM isn't forced to follow the rules, and houserule "Screw the autors, I am the GM!"

Treating brass knuckles, gauntlets, spiked gauntlets, cesti, and rope gauntlets as "unarmed attacks" doesn't make a lot of sense (because you're not unarmed, you have metal/leather/rope/etc. there).

It also brings up weird questions like ...

Here is a better "wierd" question.. If I use a set of Large Brass Knuckles or Large Guantlet .. does that raise the damage dice for my Monk Unarmed Strike?

Based on the monks low BA, high stat requirements.. another -2 to hit for using "inappropriately size weapons" could be very risky.. (good and bad.. which is perfectly acceptable)

Fuse Grenades: What happens if I hit a target before the fuse runs out? Does it prematurely detonate?

Fuse Grenades: What happens if I hit a target before the fuse runs out? Does it prematurely detonate?

No. It explodes when the fuse burns out, not when it hits something.

About the Brass Knukles Thing, seriously, I don't see any mess AT ALL.
It is (or was) only a weapon that deals the same DMG that a monk would deal with unarmeds. Nothing more, nothing less.
For any purpose, whatever it is, it's considered a weapon and nothing more. The usual, most messy questions (and answers) would be:

- Can you use Ki Strike, Stunning Fist, Elemental Fist, and Quivering Palm with Brass Knukles?
- Can you use them with your nunchakus? No? then you cannot with B.K.
- Can you use all the above with Brass Knuckles with the Ki Focus property?
- Yes
- Can you use Weapon Focus (Unarmed), W. Specialization, and the Improved and Greater versions of those feats With Brass Knukles?
- No. Get the "Weapon Focus (Brass Knukles)" instead.
- Does Weapon Focus (Brass Knukles) stack with the bonus from a Masterwork Brass Knukle?
- Yes. If you were using W.F. Longsword and a Masterwork Longsword it would stack, too.
- I wear an Amulet of Mighty Fists, and wield Brass Knukles!
- The amulet of mighty fists only alters your unarmed attacks, not your Brass Knukles (that are a weapon). Feel free to rename it "Amulet of Mighty Feet, Knees and Elbows" ;)

The only tricky ones would be:

- If you're wearing Nonmagical Brass Knukles, you qualify for Ki Strike (Magic) and try to hit an uncorporeal creature, would your Magic Fist connect?
No. I know that it doesn't make a lot of sense, but if you were wearing a cestus, your Magic Fist wouldn't connect, either. Next time, try with a headbutt.

- If I wield brass knukles, and try to land a blow with my open palm, would it be an unarmed?
Yeah, why not? Take note that you aren't using the brass knukles, so you won't get any befefit from it. (Hey, by RAW, you can land an unarmed attack with your TONGUE! even with an eyelid! I wouldn't allow the last one in my campaign. But still...)

To SKR, if you still want to kill the "Does Monk Unarmed Damage" line; please, I beg you to add something to the Brass Knukles. Monks won't want to use them them (nunchakus deal better damage, allows to disarm, and should be more common than brass knukles) and for the rest of characters... I still don't see any use for them! If the party are stripped of their possesions and have to use "Whatever they can find", daggers would be more common. easier to find in any setting... and even are better weapons. And finally, carrying Brass Knukles to a fistfight would be considered to be cheating (since you're using a weapon)
You could increase the damage to 1d6, or make them a concealed weapon, so they think you'll incur in AoO but you won't... or SOMETHING! You're one of the masterminds that bringed us Pathfinder.

To Michael. By RAW I think that a Larger Brass Knukles, still would do the Monk Unarmeds!

About the Brass Knukles Thing, seriously, I don't see any mess AT ALL.

It is (or was) only a weapon that deals the same DMG that a monk would deal with unarmeds. Nothing more, nothing less.
For any purpose, whatever it is, it's considered a weapon and nothing more. The usual, most messy questions (and answers) would be:

- Can you use Ki Strike, Stunning Fist, Elemental Fist, and Quivering Palm with Brass Knukles?
- Can you use them with your nunchakus? No? then you cannot with B.K.
- Can you use all the above with Brass Knuckles with the Ki Focus property?
- Yes
- Can you use Weapon Focus (Unarmed), W. Specialization, and the Improved and Greater versions of those feats With Brass Knukles?
- No. Get the "Weapon Focus (Brass Knukles)" instead.
- Does Weapon Focus (Brass Knukles) stack with the bonus from a Masterwork Brass Knukle?
- Yes. If you were using W.F. Longsword and a Masterwork Longsword it would stack, too.
- I wear an Amulet of Mighty Fists, and wield Brass Knukles!
- The amulet of mighty fists only alters your unarmed attacks, not your Brass Knukles (that are a weapon). Feel free to rename it "Amulet of Mighty Feet, Knees and Elbows" ;)

The only tricky ones would be:

- If you're wearing Nonmagical Brass Knukles, you qualify for Ki Strike (Magic) and try to hit an uncorporeal creature, would your Magic Fist connect?
No. I know that it doesn't make a lot of sense, but if you were wearing a cestus, your Magic Fist wouldn't connect, either. Next time, try with a headbutt.

- If I wield brass knukles, and try to land a blow with my open palm, would it be an unarmed?
Yeah, why not? Take note that you aren't using the brass knukles, so you won't get any befefit from it. (Hey, by RAW, you can land an unarmed attack with your TONGUE! even with an eyelid! I wouldn't allow the last one in my campaign. But still...)

To SKR, if you still want to kill the "Does Monk Unarmed Damage" line; please, I beg you to add something to the Brass Knukles....

I have to second all of this whole-heartedly.

I would also say that this should apply to the Cestus and Rope Gauntlets. As a a student of the martial arts and weapon enthusiast, I have to say that there is no rationale, flavor or balance, behind not allowing the monk to do his regular damage with any of these weapons. If you put them on the hands of any martial artist, western or eastern, they would do significantly more damage than unarmed. To reference one of the most weapon-geek-fest shows of all time; watch the gladiator episode of deadliest warrior. The lab results are astonishing.
The gauntlets are not monk weapons and not designed for attacking but protection, so they allow you to attack without provoking and do some more damage on an untrained punch but are not designed to allow proper technique. rules and flavor covered there.
Monks are hard enough to build within a point-buy system and nerfing their options is just unnecessary.

I would add another answer

am I armed and protected from effect that damage weapons?
yes as long as you are attacking with the weapon.

---Its not a modified unarmed strike. It's a weapon that does your unarmed strike damage or better regardless of your class, feats or abilities.

I have and will use this ruling in all games that I run. And argue for it in any that I play even if I'm not playing a monk.

To the developers I want to say that I am a big fan and I still hold to my initial description of your system as "3.5 + Awesome - Stupid" but a lot of the FAQ and errata style rulings feel like knee-jerk "No. You cant do that! stop asking!" answers. I understand that you guys are really busy and are constantly inundated with questions, complaints and accusations. But these type of rulings combined with the stunning amount of errors in Ultimate Combat have caused me to adopt a wait a year or two policy on purchasing your products. As well as pretty much destroying my desire to play in PFS.

You guys rock and I will always continue to use your system in home games but I think you guys need to restructure your QC/Errata system. I think Pre-releases to a small group would help immensely with both and also build hype for the books.

I'm not there and don't know everything you guys go through but I feel a couple of little rules that I use in my work would be helpful here;

Do it once do it right; No amount of time is wasted if it means you don't have to come back and fix it for free later.

The customer is always right; They decide what they get, you decide how much it costs.

PrivateZim, take in account that many GMs around the world have been houseruling "Brass Knukles" to give some little prize to the monks, when there is someone in the party.

Plus, in the Howl of the Carrion King, there is a weapon, "Tempest" which is always "the favored type of the guy who discovers it" a bow for an archer, a greatsword for your average fighter, and for monks, a scarf which can be wrapped around the fist and give weapon enhancments to the unarmed damage. So, there is many precedents for GMs to give something to monks!

So, is there a physical second printing of this which includes errata? If so, does it say "Second printing" on the inside front cover the same way the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game hardcovers do?

Thanks!

So, is there a physical second printing of this which includes errata? If so, does it say "Second printing" on the inside front cover the same way the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game hardcovers do?

Thanks!

Sorry, found it a few pages back. For reference: There have been three printings. The "second" printing was not labeled as such and included only one small piece of errata due to a mix-up. The actual "second" printing is marked as such and includes much more errata.

Plus, in the Howl of the Carrion King, there is a weapon, "Tempest" which is always "the favored type of the guy who discovers it" a bow for an archer, a greatsword for your average fighter, and for monks, a scarf which can be wrapped around the fist and give weapon enhancments to the unarmed damage. So, there is many precedents for GMs to give something to monks!

Okay, this is now my go-to example for precedence for getting handwraps or some other equivalent into the rules.

Quote:

can be used to make flurry of blows attacks

Correct. It has the "monk" weapon feature.

Quote:

can deal monk's unarmed damage instead of the default 1d3

Incorrect. It deals the listed damage

Quote:

cannot be used to make a stunning fist attack

Correct. You are not unarmed when using them.

Quote:

cannot benefit from an amulet of mighty fists

Correct. It is not an unarmed attack or a natural weapon.

Could this information be added to the Advanced Player's Guide FAQ please? The second printing of the APG still states the monk is able to do unarmed damage with his Brass knuckles.

I am rendered speechless by this new turn of events...

So something which came up in the last run of

That disagreement also occurs in the current Adventurer's Armory PDF, with the table's listed damage differing from the rule text.

Which is correct? (Going to point this out on the AA product page as well).