one of my players is playing a kineticist at level 11.
they recently used a blast with a lot of modifiers (empowered maximized composite blast) that would have cost 5 burn.
their claim is that because they have supercharge gathering power as a fullround+move action reduces the burn by 5
At 11th level, when using gather power as a move action, a kineticist can reduce the total burn cost of a single wild talent by 2 points instead of 1. When using gather power for 1 full round, she can reduce the burn cost of a single wild talent by 3 points instead of 2.
given the text of supercharge my understanding is that it doesn't improve the total burn reduction from the fullround+move action variant of gather power and that its main purpose is to improve the action economy of gather power.
If she has both hands free (or all of her prehensile appendages free, for unusual kineticists), a kineticist can gather energy or elemental matter as a move action. Gathering power creates an extremely loud, visible display in a 20-foot radius centered on the kineticist, as the energy or matter swirls around her. Gathering power in this way allows the kineticist to reduce the total burn cost of a blast wild talent she uses in the same round by 1 point. The kineticist can instead gather power for 1 full round in order to reduce the total burn cost of a blast wild talent used on her next turn by 2 points (to a minimum of 0 points). If she does so, she can also gather power as a move action during her next turn to reduce the burn cost by a total of 3 points...
the bolded part in gather power not being overridden by the supercharge text is the main reason for my thoughts that it wouldn't be 5 reduction
I agree with you. Supercharge is telling the total reduction in both the move action and full round action cases, though they don't explicitly say that in the full round version it is implied by the previous sentence.
I don't think you can concatenate the abilities to combine them.
Even if it did work that you can supercharge gather power and spend full round + extra I think it would at most be 4 points since the base version of full + move increase it by 1 not 2. But I don't think it even works that way.
Gathering power in this way allows the kineticist to reduce the total burn cost of a blast wild talent she uses in the same round by 1 point. The kineticist can instead gather power for 1 full round in order to reduce the total burn cost of a blast wild talent used on her next turn by 2 points (to a minimum of 0 points). If she does so, she can also gather power as a move action during her next turn to reduce the burn cost by a total of 3 points.
At 11th level, when using gather power as a move action, a kineticist can reduce the total burn cost of a single wild talent by 2 points instead of 1. When using gather power for 1 full round, she can reduce the burn cost of a single wild talent by 3 points instead of 2.
So, we know the full 2 and move 1 reduction of gather power stack stack for 3. Supercharge just seems to let you increase that to full 3 and move 2, for a stack of 5.
It really looks like they should stack to me. It's not as if that's an easy or safe thing to do, either. You stick yourself to 5 foot moves for 2 rounds, meanwhile risking the dangers of concentration from taking damage while holding the gather. It's a big risk with big reward move.
And if you do the math, I doubt that one -5 burn blast over two rounds would have been any more damage than the two -2 burn blasts over two rounds they could have used with just move action super charge gather power.
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Your player is right
If she has both hands free (or all of her prehensile appendages free, for unusual kineticists), a kineticist can gather energy or elemental matter as a move action. Gathering power creates an extremely loud, visible display in a 20-foot radius centered on the kineticist, as the energy or matter swirls around her. Gathering power in this way allows the kineticist to reduce the total burn cost of a blast wild talent she uses in the same round by 1 point. The kineticist can instead gather power for 1 full round in order to reduce the total burn cost of a blast wild talent used on her next turn by 2 points (to a minimum of 0 points)...
At 11th level, when using gather power as a move action, a kineticist can reduce the total burn cost of a single wild talent by 2 points instead of 1. When using gather power for 1 full round, she can reduce the burn cost of a single wild talent by 3 points instead of 2.
Supercharge just changes the values of gather power. 2 points as a move or 3 as a full.
...If she does so, she can also gather power as a move action during her next turn...
This is not changed by Supercharge
...to reduce the burn cost by a total of 3 points.
This is where you're getting hung up. This is just telling you that 2+1=3. Once you get supercharge it becomes 3+2 but they didn't bother to tell you that =5.
Doing this takes two rounds and is vulnerable to interruption. It's not really out of scale.
Once you get supercharge it becomes 3+2 but they didn't bother to tell you that =5.
That may have even been future proofing. There could have been some feat or magic item that increased the value of your gather power, so leaving it open was the smarter option.
I should also mention that the supercharge for each is optional. There may be a case where the kineticist only needs to reduce a blast by 4 instead of 5, since unused gather power can burn you.
I suppose the contention is whether the default 3 burn option is a full action gather power action + a move action gather power action or it is its own thing which costs a full round action + a move action.
I suppose the contention is whether the default 3 burn option is a full action gather power action + a move action gather power action or it is its own thing which costs a full round action + a move action.
Indeed, I personally view it as the second.
In my view, it is not two separate "gather power" type actions but rather it's own thing.
It's pretty explicit that it is two separate uses of gather power.
she can also gather power as a move action during her next turn
I don't know if Mark Seifter still drops in on these kinds of discussions, but it feels like it takes some extraordinary mental gymnastics to come to a number other than 5. And it's not like that 5 is overpowered or anything. Saving up power for 2 rounds just to get a super strong blast is the kind of flavor the kineticist was going for.
Edit:
A quick google told me that Mark already weighed in on this
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2r7kg&page=61?Ask-Mark-Seifter-All-Your-Qu estions-Here#3030
As Xel mentioned, it's C. The two still stack like before, but now for a total of 5. Go forth and be awesome!Here's a quick question about the kineticist: At 11th level, with Supercharge, it says, "At 11th level, when using gather power as a move action, a kineticist can reduce the total burn cost of a single wild talent by 2 points instead of 1. When using gather power for 1 full round, she can reduce the burn cost of a single wild talent by 3 points instead of 2." Mostly I'm just wondering, when it comes to gathering energy for a full round and then gathering more, does this mean:
a) There's no point in doing so anymore, gathering energy for a full round is already at maximum efficiency of -3, using your move action on top of that does nothing.
b) Doing so reduces it by an additional point, increasing to -4.
c) Doing so is the same as using a move action a second time, so it's actually -3 with an added -2 on top of that for a total of -5.
...I'm presuming A is correct, but wanted to be sure when taking notes for how much burn gets reduced at what level.
Edit: In case I'm being incoherent since it's late, what goes where I have ?, -3, -4, or -5?
While Mark's posts aren't exactly official, he was very much a "rules guy" and the creator of the kineticist. Any official answer would almost certainly line up with him.
It's pretty explicit that it is two separate uses of gather power.
she can also gather power as a move action during her next turnI don't know if Mark Seifter still drops in on these kinds of discussions, but it feels like it takes some extraordinary mental gymnastics to come to a number other than 5. And it's not like that 5 is overpowered or anything. Saving up power for 2 rounds just to get a super strong blast is the kind of flavor the kineticist was going for.
Edit:
A quick google told me that Mark already weighed in on this
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2r7kg&page=61?Ask-Mark-Seifter-All-Your-Qu estions-Here#3030...As Xel mentioned, it's C. The two still stack likeHere's a quick question about the kineticist: At 11th level, with Supercharge, it says, "At 11th level, when using gather power as a move action, a kineticist can reduce the total burn cost of a single wild talent by 2 points instead of 1. When using gather power for 1 full round, she can reduce the burn cost of a single wild talent by 3 points instead of 2." Mostly I'm just wondering, when it comes to gathering energy for a full round and then gathering more, does this mean:
a) There's no point in doing so anymore, gathering energy for a full round is already at maximum efficiency of -3, using your move action on top of that does nothing.
b) Doing so reduces it by an additional point, increasing to -4.
c) Doing so is the same as using a move action a second time, so it's actually -3 with an added -2 on top of that for a total of -5.
...I'm presuming A is correct, but wanted to be sure when taking notes for how much burn gets reduced at what level.
Edit: In case I'm being incoherent since it's late, what goes where I have ?, -3, -4, or -5?
I don't agree with your take that it requires "extraordinary mental gymnastics" but I will acquiesce that Mark's statement constitute enough of a clarification lacking any other official statements.
I would have prefer the answer be to encourage Kineticist to do more by giving them better action economy, rather than encourage them to "save up" for one big blast but alas that appears not to be the case.
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I would have prefer the answer be to encourage Kineticist to do more by giving them better action economy, rather than encourage them to "save up" for one big blast but alas that appears not to be the case.
Let’s say I’m an 11th level air/water kineticist with a con modifier of +7. I could gather power as a move action, then let off an extended range entangling blizzard blast for 12d6+12+7 damage with no burn. Average total if I do this two rounds in a row would be 122 damage.
Or I could gather as a full-round, then as a move the next round (total reduction -5 burn). Then let off a maximized extended range chilling blizzard blast for no burn. Staggered instead of entangled, but the total damage for those two rounds is only 91.
Infusion specialization only applies to infusions attached to a blast, not to the blast itself. A maximized composite blast costs 4 burn. That 4 isn't reduced by infusion specialization.
Even the damage numbers themselves are much more in scale than people assume. An 11th-level kineticist can gather power as a move and throw composite physical blasts as a standard for 12d6+12+Con all day long for no burn. Which sounds like a lot. Until you calculate how much damage a magus, bow-wielding ranger, or a barbarian would be doing at that level with a full-attack.
Having the energy blasts do less damage and be subject to SR but target touch instead of regular AC is another.
Gathering power as a full-round and then as a move the next can result in a huge no-burn attack but is subject to interruption and takes two full rounds. (Instead of two slightly smaller no-burn one-round attacks.)
It's good balance. It's just too complex for the balance to be clear.
To keep things simple, compare just the damage, though getting 2 rounds of extras like entangling is a perk of using 2 vs 1.
Just using move action supercharge, you can use a composite blast for 2 rounds, for your earlier 2(12d6+12+7)=2(~61)=~122 damage.
But, if we really max the full+move blast, we use, composite with empower and maximize. This should be (12*6+12+7)+(6d6+6+3) = ~121
So, as we can see, getting the 5 discount isn't overpowered at all. There are really only a few times it would be worthwhile, considering the risks. First, is overcoming exceptional flat damage reductions, like high DR or elemental resistance. Second, would be in cases where you simply can't hit your enemy on the first round, like if you knew they were rounding a corner or if they were temporarily invisible.
That why I say I would have rather the answer be it doesn't reduce by 5, to encourage players to not spend a full + move and instead encourage them to actively do things.
Generally speaking it's almost always mechanically worse to do than simply move action supercharge gather and shoot twice. But because the ability let's them, they're going to be inclined to think they should do it.
That why I say I would have rather the answer be it doesn't reduce by 5, to encourage players to not spend a full + move and instead encourage them to actively do things.
Generally speaking it's almost always mechanically worse to do than simply move action supercharge gather and shoot twice. But because the ability let's them, they're going to be inclined to think they should do it.
I don't think I see where you are going with that. It's just another option. It's niche sure, but it's not like it's a true trap. If you have a player that'd rather do their damage once every 2 rounds than once every round, then that's fine for them and whatever class fantasy they are trying to live out.
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I don't think I see where you are going with that. It's just another option. It's niche sure, but it's not like it's a true trap. If you have a player that'd rather do their damage once every 2 rounds than once every round, then that's fine for them and whatever class fantasy they are trying to live out.That why I say I would have rather the answer be it doesn't reduce by 5, to encourage players to not spend a full + move and instead encourage them to actively do things.
Generally speaking it's almost always mechanically worse to do than simply move action supercharge gather and shoot twice. But because the ability let's them, they're going to be inclined to think they should do it.
That's how I feel too. I'm all in favor of giving players as many options as possible, as long as they are in the same power scale. (And Melkiador's post above shows how the the damage compares almost equally.)
I don't agree that players are going to be inclined to gather for a full-round then a move just because it gives them a bigger burn pool. Or at least not to do it all the time. I GMed a LOT of PFS and the only times I ever saw someone do the double-gather was when they had already taken a bunch of burn and either couldn't take any more or wanted to save a couple points of burn for a true emergency. Very few players are content to "do nothing" for a round.
Realize that in any fight that lasts more than two rounds the enemies are almost certainly going to try to disrupt the kineticist after they see the effects of the first boom. Maybe even before that if they have a prior reason to know what gathering power leads to. . .