Activating a scroll is just like casting a prepared spell, so the scroll-wielder can casting defensively or casting in a horrible environment.
When a PC without spell ability use UMD to activate scrolls (DC = 20 + CL), how does he dice Concentration check when casting defensively or casting in a horrible environment? Concentration check = d20 + CL + spell ability score modifier，while the wielder has CL, and she doesn't know which mental ability score to use.
some PL state, Activating a scroll by UMD always use the scroll's Concentration check. In PFS, it's the lowest ability score and CL. But I don't agree with it. IMO, it should dice the wielder's Concentration check, but I don't how to deal with when using UMD.
Your own stats don't apply to spells cast from scrolls, so you would use the caster level of the scroll and the lowest ability score needed to cast the spell by the class that the scroll was made by for concentration checks involving that scroll. Similarly, you would use the lowest ability score needed to cast the spell for calculating the DC.
CRB wrote: Concentration
To cast a spell, you must concentrate. If something interrupts your concentration while you’re casting, you must make a concentration check or lose the spell. When you make a concentration check, you roll d20 and add your caster level and the ability score modifier used to determine bonus spells of the same type. Clerics, druids, and rangers add their Wisdom modifier. Bards, paladins, and sorcerers add their Charisma modifier. Finally, wizards add their Intelligence modifier. The more distracting the interruption and the higher the level of the spell you are trying to cast, the higher the DC (see Table 9–1). If you fail the check, you lose the spell just as if you had cast it to no effect.
CRB wrote: Spell Completion: This is the activation method for scrolls.
A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that’s left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can’t already cast the spell, there’s a chance he’ll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action (or the spell’s casting time, whichever is longer) and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.
CRB wrote: SAVING THROWS AGAINST MAGIC ITEM POWERS
Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell.
Staves are an exception to the rule. Treat the saving throw as if the wielder cast the spell, including caster level and all modifiers to save DCs.
Most item descriptions give saving throw DCs for various
effects, particularly when the effect has no exact spell equivalent (making its level otherwise difficult to determine quickly).
CRB wrote: Determine Effect: A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way. Assume the scroll spell’s caster level is always the minimum level required to cast the spell for the character who scribed the scroll, unless the scriber
specifically desired otherwise. The writing for an activated spell disappears from the scroll as the spell is cast.
The scroll DC and CL are set by the scroll, but the concentration check is something the character makes, so it is set by the character's casting abilities and his relevant levels.
The first citation says that when using a scroll with UMD and making a concentration check, you use your CL (apparently even if it comes from a class that can use the spell) and the casting ability needed to cast the scroll (and charisma-based casters are advantaged here because almost all spells can be cast by a class that uses charisma as its casting stat).
Note that the UMD ability "Emulate an Ability Score" doesn't seem to help with the concentration check, as the emulates sore is for the casting of the scroll, and the concentration check is separated from that.
CRB wrote: Caster Level
A spell’s power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to her class level in the class she’s using to cast the spell.
You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.
Concentration checks use the caster level of the spell for their bonuses, therefore you'd use the scroll's caster level for the check.
Similarly, if a caster had Varisian Tattoo, spell specialization, or other feats/abilities that increased the caster level of a spell they cast, they'd benefit from it during their concentration checks for that spell.
Read the whole paragraph.
Quote: Caster Level
A spell’s power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to her class level in the class she’s using to cast the spell.
You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.
In the event that a class feature or other special ability provides an adjustment to your caster level, that adjustment applies not only to effects based on caster level (such as range, duration, and damage dealt), but also to your caster level check to overcome your target’s spell resistance and to the caster level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the DC of the check).
They are speaking of the Caster level of the spell. But the caster level of the spell you are using is unrelated to your concentration check.
The "level-dependent features" are those of the spell, your concentration bonus isn't a feature of the spell, it is a feature of the character.
The concentration check is based on the character caster level, not the CL of the spell.
It is how well you resist distraction while casting a spell, not how well the spells resist distractions.
Based on your reasoning, what is the concentration bonus of an Efreeti when it cast Wish?
- his caster level of 11 plus his intelligence bonus for a total of 12;
- or it is 21 as Wish has a minimum caster level of 17 and a minimum intelligence requirement of 19?
Even better example: something that has its concentration bonus in the statblock.
Demon, Brimorak
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 6th; concentration +8)
3/day—dispel magic, heat metal (DC 14), produce flame
1/day—air walk, fireball (DC 15), greater teleport (self plus 50 lbs. of objects only), summon (level 3, 1 brimorak 50%)
The concentration bonus is based on its CL (6) and its Cha (15).
Air walk is a 4th level spell with a minimum caster level of 7 and a minimum stat of 14, so the default concentration bonus is 9.
The concentration bonus of the Brimorak changes when it cast it as a consequence of your citation?
Diego Rossi wrote: Based on your reasoning, what is the concentration bonus of an Efreeti when it cast Wish?
- his caster level of 11 plus his intelligence bonus for a total of 12;
- or it is 21 as Wish has a minimum caster level of 17 and a minimum intelligence requirement of 19?
It could even be higher since you can make scrolls with a higher caster level. If you mean what the concentration check of its spell-like abilities would be, well, you should probably brush up on the rules for spell-like abilities.
Spell-like Abilities UMR wrote: The creature’s caster level never affects which spell-like abilities the creature has; sometimes the given caster level is lower than the level a spellcasting character would need to cast the spell of the same name. Since it'd be able to cast them as a caster level of 11 and using it's Cha stat (the default stat for SLAs), it has a +13 bonus for its concentration check.
Diego Rossi wrote: Even better example: something that has its concentration bonus in the statblock.
Demon, Brimorak
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 6th; concentration +8)
3/day—dispel magic, heat metal (DC 14), produce flame
1/day—air walk, fireball (DC 15), greater teleport (self plus 50 lbs. of objects only), summon (level 3, 1 brimorak 50%)
The concentration bonus is based on its CL (6) and its Cha (15).
Air walk is a 4th level spell with a minimum caster level of 7 and a minimum stat of 14, so the default concentration bonus is 9.
The concentration bonus of the Brimorak changes when it cast it as a consequence of your citation?
As stated above, the concentration check is as listed (+8), but for a scroll it'd use the scroll's stats instead.
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But since you want to bring up the topic of reading whole quotes, you should probably read yours all the way through.
Quote: Concentration
To cast a spell, you must concentrate. If something interrupts your concentration while you’re casting, you must make a concentration check or lose the spell. When you make a concentration check, you roll d20 and add your caster level and the ability score modifier used to determine bonus spells of the same type. Clerics, druids, and rangers add their Wisdom modifier. Bards, paladins, and sorcerers add their Charisma modifier. Finally, wizards add their Intelligence modifier. The more distracting the interruption and the higher the level of the spell you are trying to cast, the higher the DC (see Table 9–1). If you fail the check, you lose the spell just as if you had cast it to no effect.
To use your example above, since a monster's SLAs are presumed to go wizard/sorc -> cleric:
Spell-like Abilities UMR wrote: A monster’s spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/ wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/ wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, or ranger, in that order. That means that the Brimorak's Air Walk ability is from the cleric class (and thus divine). The ability score used for clerics is their wisdom modifier, which for the Brimorak is only a 12 (+1).
Does a Brimorak have a:
A) +8 modifier to its concentration check? (CL 6, Cha 15)
B) +7 modifier to its concentration check? (CL 6, Wis 12)
How about if it attempts to cast the same spell from a scroll of Air Walk (Cleric, CL 7)?
A) +8? (CL 6, Cha 15)
B) +7? (CL 6, Wis 12)
C) +9? (Scroll CL 7, Cha 15)
D) +9? (Scroll CL 7, minimum 14 Wis to cast)
What if it attempts to cast a spell from a scroll that isn't an SLA it has, like Searing Light (Cleric 3, CL 5), what would its concentration check be for that spell? Same as above?
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And for a different scenario, how about if solo-classed fighter with 14 Int, 12 Wis, 13 Cha attempts to cast a scroll of Fireball (Wizard, CL 12), what would their concentration bonus be:
A) +0 (They have no spellcasting, and thus no bonus to their concentration check.)
B) +2 (Int 14)
C) +15 (CL 12 Fireball)
Bestiary wrote: Spell-Like Abilities (Sp)
...
The saving throw (if any) against a spell-like ability is 10 + the level of the spell the ability resembles or duplicates + the creature’s Charisma modifier.
Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster’s spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.
The part you cited is about what version of the spell you should use. Not about the stat you use.
The bolded part says what stat a monster use for the DC of his SLA abilities.
Diego Rossi wrote: The bolded part says what stat a monster use for the DC of his SLA abilities. Yes? It was never in question what ability score SLAs used for their DCs.
Are you arguing that the DC of a spell is what's used for determining their concentration bonus? Not sure what you're trying to say here ...
willuwontu wrote: Diego Rossi wrote: The bolded part says what stat a monster use for the DC of his SLA abilities. Yes? It was never in question what ability score SLAs used for their DCs.
Are you arguing that the DC of a spell is what's used for determining their concentration bonus? Not sure what you're trying to say here ... The casting stat of the monster is charisma, not intelligence or wisdom.
Diego Rossi wrote: The casting stat of the monster is charisma, not intelligence or wisdom. Sure, and the caster level of a scroll is determined by the scroll and not what classes you have.
willuwontu wrote: Diego Rossi wrote: The casting stat of the monster is charisma, not intelligence or wisdom. Sure, and the caster level of a scroll is determined by the scroll and not what classes you have. We are speaking of the concentration check, which is modified by the ability score modifier used to determine bonus spells of the same type.
When the CRB was written several casting classes didn't exist, especially the Oracle, so the list is incomplete. Arcane casters and spells can use charisma or intelligence (Wizard and Sorcerer), and Divine classes can use charisma (Oracle, Paladin) or wisdom (Ceric, Druid). Monster SLAs use charisma.
The Brimorak CL is 6; the concentration bonus is +8, its stat are int 12, wis 12, cha 15.
Diego Rossi wrote: We are speaking of the concentration check, which is modified by the ability score modifier used to determine bonus spells of the same type.
When the CRB was written several casting classes didn't exist, especially the Oracle, so the list is incomplete. Arcane casters and spells can use charisma or intelligence (Wizard and Sorcerer), and Divine classes can use charisma (Oracle, Paladin) or wisdom (Ceric, Druid). Monster SLAs use charisma.
The Brimorak CL is 6; the concentration bonus is +8, its stat are int 12, wis 12, cha 15.
Hold up a moment, are you arguing that:
Quote: the ability score modifier used to determine bonus spells of the same type. Gives sorcerers the ability to use Int for their concentration checks, and wizards the ability to use Cha for theirs?
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Ok, I'm still confused here. Let's try a simple example.
Wizzy McGreybeard, a 10th level wizard with a 20 Int makes a couple scrolls of Magic missile (CL1).
Sora the 2nd level sorcerer picks up the scroll and tries to cast it, but Stabby McStabbington attacks dealing 4 points of damage.
Concentration Check DC 15
(10 + damage dealt + spell level = 10 + 4 + 1 = 15)
Sora is pretty with a Cha of 16, but not too bright with an Int of 8.
She rolls a 10.
1) For caster level does she add:
. . . a) her caster level (2)
. . . b) McGreybeard's (10)
. . . c) the CL of the spell on the scroll (1)
2) For ability modifier does she add:
. . . a) her casting modifier (Cha = +3)
. . . b) McGreybeard's casting modifier (Int = +5)
. . . c) her modifier in scroll creator's attribute (Int = -1)
. . . d) the minimum attribute a wizard would need (+0)
Follow up question, Stabby McStabbington swiped another copy of the same scroll and used UMD to try to cast it... but Sora is upset and slaps him for 2 point of damage (she has nails).
Concentration DC 13
Stabby the 1st level noob internet troll has an Int of 11 and a Cha of 14, and rolled a 22 on UMD.
For the concentration he rolls a 10.
1) For caster level does he add:
. . . a) his total levels (1)
. . . b) his actual "caster" level (0)
. . . c) the caster level rolled on UMD (2)
. . . d) McGreybeard's caster level (10)
. . . e) The minimum CL needed to use the scroll (1)
. . . f) The actual CL of the spell on the scroll (1)
2) For ability modifier does he add:
. . . a) nothing since he doesn't have a "casting ability" (0)
. . . b) the ability he used for UMD (Cha = +2)
. . . c) McGreybeard's casting modifier (Int = +5)
. . . d) his modifier in the scroll creator's attribute (Int = +0)
. . . e) the minimum attribute a wizard would need (+1)
I have additional questions based on the spell "Imbue Spell Ability" and the concentration check for activating Psionic Tattoos, but I'll save those for if/when this gets a response.
1) c
2) d
3) f
4) e (+0 btw, not +1, same as question 2)
willuwontu wrote: 1) c
2) d
3) f
4) e (+0 btw, not +1, same as question 2)
Thank you... can you direct me to the RAW so I can reference it correctly when the argument inevitably starts with players and DM's?
One more, if Wizzy McGreybeard made 3 of those scrolls and picked up one would he use his stats (being the one who made the scroll) for the concentration check, or the minimum of the scroll?
They're mentioned upthread, but here's a couple.
Magic item saving throws
Caster level
Using scrolls
He'd use the scroll's stats. Same as if an Efreeti picked up a scroll of wish.
ok... but that doesn't really help.
"Magic item saving throws" has to do with the spell and spell effects... not the concentration check. Sure it would effect the DC (10 + damage + spell level), but not the roll.
"Caster level" again deals with the caster level dependent features of the spell. The only place a spell factors into a concentration check is the DC. It doesn't matter if the caster level is 1 or 20, a magic missle is a level 1 spell.
"Using scrolls" is somewhat insightful, but very confusing. What I found most interesting was this:
To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.
> The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
> The user must have the spell on her class list.
> The user must have the requisite ability score.
What is interesting is that the class determine the type of scroll (Arcane or Divine), but it doesn't narrow down further into Arcane-Int, Arcane-Cha, Divine-Wis, or Divine-Cha. Even the deciphering section only allows you to identify the spell, not the class of the creator. However it does require the user to have the requisite ability score. Since the user must have the spell on her class list, one can assume that the attribute just needs to be whatever attribute you use for casting spell from that class list. i.e.: a sorcerer would use charisma, even if the spell was created by a wizard since the only factor is that it is Arcane.
The following section could go either way, "...and her caster level is at least equal to the spell’s caster level..." would seem to indicate that a high level caster can cast a low level spell without dumbing themselves down to do so (a 20th level wizard doesn't suddenly become less competent at keeping his concentration just because the scroll was written by a novice) though the spell effects would still be set by the caster level of the scroll. But it could be argued just as "You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal..." (from the Caster level link) the reader of the spell is basically casting the spell at the caster level the creator set. I'm still not sold that a caster pulling their punch (casting a spell at lower caster level) would also become less able to concentrate and focus.
Again, do we have any sources: RAW, errata, tweets from creators, etc., that directly equate Concentration checks to something besides the spell level? Or directly links the thousands of scrolls adventuring parties find in dungeon loot to specific classes beyond just Arcane or Divine?
nightfox the lost wrote: Since the user must have the spell on her class list, one can assume that the attribute just needs to be whatever attribute you use for casting spell from that class list. i.e.: a sorcerer would use charisma, even if the spell was created by a wizard since the only factor is that it is Arcane. Rather, you could actually be able to use int/wis/cha for any sorc/wiz spell in a scroll, since you can get all 3 stats for those classes. Cuts out a UMD check if one of those is high enough for you.
nightfox the lost wrote: I'm still not sold that a caster pulling their punch (casting a spell at lower caster level) would also become less able to concentrate and focus. Think of it as them needing to concentrate harder to manipulate power that's not intrinsically theirs.
nightfox the lost wrote: Again, do we have any sources: RAW, errata, tweets from creators, etc., that directly equate Concentration checks to something besides the spell level? Tons of stuff, like damage, vigorous motion, etc. See Concentration.
If you mean for the bonus to the check, you use caster level.
Concentration wrote: When you make a concentration check, you roll d20 and add your caster level and the ability score modifier used to determine bonus spells of the same type. And sure, ignoring the fact that the rules for concentration are in the rules for casting a spell, we can ignore the link it has when casting a spell, and use the character's caster level.
So a cleric 3/oracle 1 would be able to use the higher of their wis and cha, since like scrolls it only looks for the spell type and not the class. They'd also be able to choose the higher of their caster levels.
Similarly, anything that help the caster specialize in a spell and increase its caster level would be ignored as well.
nightfox the lost wrote: Or directly links the thousands of scrolls adventuring parties find in dungeon loot to specific classes beyond just Arcane or Divine? Nothing usually specifies the loot as arcane or divine either (unless I'm forgetting something). Typically people use the SLA rules to determine which it is, which also determine the class it's from.
After thinking about this a bit, it seems like we need to figure out if concentration is internal or external to the spell.
Is a concentration check something you do in order to be able to do something else?
or is a concentration check part of the something else you are trying to do?
From the way I'm seeing the "Concentration Checks and Casting Spells" section, it looks like you make a Concentration check "in order to be able to" avoid losing the spell, or to avoid an AoO.
This feels supported when you compare the text for "Concentration Checks and Casting Spells"
Quote: When you make a concentration check, you roll d20 and add your caster level and the ability score modifier used to determine bonus spells of the same type. and "Caster Level"
Quote: A spell’s power often depends on its caster level"
nightfox the lost wrote: After thinking about this a bit, it seems like we need to figure out if concentration is internal or external to the spell.
Is a concentration check something you do in order to be able to do something else?
or is a concentration check part of the something else you are trying to do?
Sure, let's look at the action it's typically a part of, Cast a spell. You can also concentrate to maintain a spell, but both times concentration is used, it's part of a spell, not something you just randomly take an action for in the middle of the day.
You do not declare "I make a concentration check to cast defensively", roll concentration, and then declare what spell you're casting. Instead you declare that you're casting a spell, and make a concentration check as part of doing so in order to cast defensively.
nightfox the lost wrote: From the way I'm seeing the "Concentration Checks and Casting Spells" section, it looks like you make a Concentration check "in order to be able to" avoid losing the spell, or to avoid an AoO.
This feels supported when you compare the text for "Concentration Checks and Casting Spells"
Quote: When you make a concentration check, you roll d20 and add your caster level and the ability score modifier used to determine bonus spells of the same type. and "Caster Level"
Quote: A spell’s power often depends on its caster level"
Ah, let's quote the caster level section in whole:
A spell’s power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to her class level in the class she’s using to cast the spell.
You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.
In the event that a class feature or other special ability provides an adjustment to your caster level, that adjustment applies not only to effects based on caster level (such as range, duration, and damage dealt), but also to your caster level check to overcome your target’s spell resistance and to the caster level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the DC of the check).
Adjustments to your caster level are what set the caster level of a spell.
This is even supported by the various texts of feats and traits.
Quote: Treat your caster level as being two higher for all level-variable effects of the spell. Quote: Treat your caster level as 1 higher when casting spells and spell-like abilities with the mind-affecting descriptor. Quote: Treat your caster level as 1 higher to determine the duration of spells you cast that call or summon genies or outsiders with the elemental subtype. Quote: If you cast such a spell or spell-like ability at night, as long as the sky is clear and the stars are visible, treat your caster level as 1 higher when determining the spell’s duration.
I disagree with willuwontu interpetation on this. The rules don't actually state how this should work. They state that casting from a scroll can be interrupted, forcing a concentration check, but don't actually describe how that would work with a UMD.
If you aren't using UMD, eg, you are already a caster of approproriate type and level with appropriate casting stat, without any statement contrary to it, I believe that RAW you would just use your own concentration check like you were casting the spell from your own spell slots.
willuwontu wrote: CRB wrote: Caster Level
A spell’s power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to her class level in the class she’s using to cast the spell.
You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.
Concentration checks use the caster level of the spell for their bonuses, therefore you'd use the scroll's caster level for the check.
The part bolded is correct. But as Diego Rossi pointed out
Quote:
The "level-dependent features" are those of the spell, your concentration bonus isn't a feature of the spell, it is a feature of the character.
concentration is not a spell level dependent feature.
Quote: ...use the caster level of the spell... isn't quite accurate. You use the caster level of the character (for the appropriate spell casting class).
If I am a 10th level wizard with a 20 int. My concentration bonus is +15. That is independent of whether I cast magic missile (1st level), fireball (3rd level) or dismissal (5th level). Regardless I get a +15 to my concentration check rolls.
Likewise, as a 10th level wizard, I could if I chose too, cast magic missile as though I was a 1st level wizard. I would get 1 magic missile (instead of 5). But my concentration check rolls for casting such a spell would still be at a +15. Here even pretending to be a lower level caster does not affect my actual caster level (and intelligence stat) which are the two things the concentration check is based on. The DC to make the concentration check based on the spell level. The roll itself is not.
So lets come back then to UMDing a scroll. The rules simply do not tell us how the concentration check works here. So anything offered up is opinion. For myself, here is how I would run it.
Scenario 1:
Rogue with a 14 intelligence wants to read a scroll of magic missile. What does he need to UMD? He needs to UMD being a 1st level wizard/sorcerer/other arcane caster. He does not need to UMD an intelligence stat - he already meets the requirement. With UMD we now pretend he is a 1st level wizard. Concentration checks then get a caster level of 1 (1st level wizard) and add his own existing int modifier (+2 for his 14 int). Total bonus of +3.
Scenario 2:
Same as above but rogue only has an int of 10. They must now UMD both being a wizard and having the appropriate ability score. I would either go with what willuwontu states he believes is the base rule. eg, min int of 11, min caster level 1, so concentration bonus of +1 total. Or I might even be inclined to use the actual int modifier. So for an int of 8 apply a -1, an int of 6, apply a -2, etc.
In either case use the appropriate character stat for the spell type (arcane or divine). And the general stat used for that. eg, int for arcane spells or wis for divine spells. Even though the arcane scroll of magic missile could have been crafted by a sorcerer, we don't distinquish scrolls to that level of bookkeeping. IF there is a spell that only sorcerers can learn, and they made a scroll of it, then it would be appropriate to use the UMDing characters charisma score instead of int.
bbangerter wrote: You use the caster level of the character (for the appropriate spell casting class).
If I am a 10th level wizard with a 20 int. My concentration bonus is +15. That is independent of whether I cast magic missile (1st level), fireball (3rd level) or dismissal (5th level). Regardless I get a +15 to my concentration check rolls.
Likewise, as a 10th level wizard, I could if I chose too, cast magic missile as though I was a 1st level wizard. I would get 1 magic missile (instead of 5). But my concentration check rolls for casting such a spell would still be at a +15. Here even pretending to be a lower level caster does not affect my actual caster level (and intelligence stat) which are the two things the concentration check is based on. The DC to make the concentration check based on the spell level. The roll itself is not.
If concentration was a skill (like it was in 3.5), I would wholeheartedly agree with you, but that was changed in Pathfinder.
Query, how do you rule bonuses to caster level when casting a spell (such as through Spell Specialization, Varisian Tattoo, alchemical power components, circlet of the moon, etc.) affecting your concentration check with that spell? Do they simply have no effect on your concentration check?
willuwontu wrote: Query, how do you rule bonuses to caster level when casting a spell (such as through Spell Specialization, Varisian Tattoo, alchemical power components, circlet of the moon, etc.) affecting your concentration check with that spell? Do they simply have no effect on your concentration check? As you have previously pointed out, you would have those various +x caster level when casting the appropriate spells. However that is only for you the caster. The scroll imposes it's own caster level for the spell.
for example:
willuwontu wrote: Treat your caster level as being two higher for all level-variable effects of the spell. This only effects variables on the spell. For a scroll, the caster level is set by the creator of the scroll, so this would have no effect.
willuwontu wrote: Treat your caster level as 1 higher when casting spells and spell-like abilities with the mind-affecting descriptor. Though no effect on the scroll's spell is effected, if the spell is mind-affecting, I think the caster would be treated as 1 higher caster level for the associated concentration check (if necessary) ... but I could be wrong
willuwontu wrote: Treat your caster level as 1 higher to determine the duration of spells you cast that call or summon genies or outsiders with the elemental subtype. again, nice to have, but as above it only effects the spell, and therefore connot effect the spell on the scroll.
willuwontu wrote: If you cast such a spell or spell-like ability at night, as long as the sky is clear and the stars are visible, treat your caster level as 1 higher when determining the spell’s duration. and again, this effects spell duration which is set by the scrolls creator and would thus have no effect on the scroll's spell.
As an addendum, there is A LOT of material for pathfinder and I don't remember most of it. I can completely imagine that there is a feat or ability that allows a caster/user to use their own stats and/or caster/character level when using spell completion/trigger items. If so, than those "+X Caster Level" feats/abilities would probably apply.
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For a scroll of scorching ray what bab do you use? And if this has a different answer than than concentration, why?
Good question/example ^_^
As I read it, the number of rays would be determined by the scroll's caster level:
Quote: You may fire one ray, plus one additional ray for every four [caster ?] levels beyond 3rd (to a maximum of three rays at 11th level). And you would need to make attack rolls for each separately though:
Quote: Each ray requires a ranged touch attack to hit But the spell just allows you to make a ranged touch attack roll for each ray. It does not provide any bonuses or limits based on caster level other than the number of rays. Generally speaking this would be BAB + Dex mod + size mod, none of which are linked to caster level or spell level.
For example, 2 human wizards with 14 Dex are each handed scrolls of scorching ray (CL 7).
Wizzy Sr. (Wizard 10) would make 2 attacks with:
Ranged Attack: +7 (+5 [Wiz BAB] +2 [DEX] +0 [Size])
Wizzy Jr. (Wizard 7, Fighter 3) would also make 2 attack, but with:
Ranged Attack: +8 (+3 [Wiz BAB] +3 [Ftr BAB] +2 [DEX] +0 [Size])
I'm too lazy to look it up, but I vaguely recall that there are spells that allow you to make attack rolls using your Caster Level in place of your BAB, so those would probably be limited to the caster level of the scroll.
-but i could be wrong ^_^
willuwontu wrote:
Query, how do you rule bonuses to caster level when casting a spell (such as through Spell Specialization, Varisian Tattoo, alchemical power components, circlet of the moon, etc.) affecting your concentration check with that spell? Do they simply have no effect on your concentration check?
Spell Specialization wrote:
Treat your caster level as being two higher for all level-variable effects of the spell.
A concentration check is not a level variable effect of the spell. Spell specialization has no effect on your bonuses for making a concentration check.
Circlet of the Moon wrote:
...caster level is considered one higher for purposes of caster level checks and spell effects
A concentration check is not a caster level check, nor is it a spell effect. Circlet of the moon has no effect on concentration checks.
Alchemical Items wrote:
Remove Disease (M): Add +2 on your caster level check to cure diseases on the target.
Neutralize Poison (M): Add +2 on your caster level check to neutralize poison on a target creature. Antitoxin has no effect when you cast the spell on an object.
...treat your caster level as 1 higher for the purpose of determining the spell’s duration and effect.
+1 caster level for the purpose of duration.
+1 caster level for the purpose of the effect.
...you treat your caster level as 1 higher for the purpose of determining the spell’s damage.
+1 caster level for the purpose of overcoming spell resistance.
...treat the spell’s caster level as if it were 1 higher for the purpose of caster level checks and dispel checks.
The spell deals +1 point of damage per caster level.
+1 caster level for the purpose of range.
None of those effect concentration checks as they all specifically call out a caster level increase for different parts of spell casting that has nothing to do with the concentration check. Mostly this is in the form of spell damage/duration/range of the spells. Some (like antitoxin and antiplague) effect specific spells that specifically call for a caster level check. Again a concentration check is not a caster level check.
Cold Iron Alchemical Component wrote:
+1 caster level for the purpose of caster level and dispel checks
This one is a little more unique, but again it is referring caster level [checks] and dispel checks.
Varisian Tatoo wrote:
...you cast spells from this school at +1 caster level
or
Flawed Orange Prism Ioun stone wrote:
This stone grants a +1 caster level...
These are more interesting, and required a bit more digging.
Caster Level wrote:
A spell’s power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to her class level in the class she’s using to cast the spell.
You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.
In the event that a class feature or other special ability provides an adjustment to your caster level[b], that adjustment applies not only to [b]effects based on caster level (such as range, duration, and damage dealt), but also to your caster level check to overcome your target’s spell resistance and to the caster level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the DC of the check).
AoN link for reference
Here we have a general rule that caster level increasing items increase the spells level variable effects, caster level checks, and dispel checks. No mention of concentration checks. So the tatoo, orange ioun stone, and any other items not covered above are covered by this general rule if they don't have more specific rules governing them.
Just to clarify, any time the rules talk about a caster level check it is a d20 + caster level. A dispel check is a caster level check for all intents and purposes as it is also a d20 + caster level. Though there are some obscure rules that affect only dispel checks and not general caster level checks. Other uses for caster level checks are to overcome spell resistance and with specific spells like remove disease.
A concentration check, on the other hand, is a d20 + caster level + primary casting stat.
bbangerter wrote: Here we have a general rule that caster level increasing items increase the spells level variable effects, caster level checks, and dispel checks. No mention of concentration checks. So the tatoo, orange ioun stone, and any other items not covered above are covered by this general rule if they don't have more specific rules governing them.
Just to clarify, any time the rules talk about a caster level check it is a d20 + caster level. A dispel check is a caster level check for all intents and purposes as it is also a d20 + caster level. Though there are some obscure rules that affect only dispel checks and not general caster level checks. Other uses for caster level checks are to overcome spell resistance and with specific spells like remove disease.
A concentration check, on the other hand, is a d20 + caster level + primary casting stat.
I still disagree with you (I still think checks involving caster level of a spell should be based off the spell's caster level), but I appreciate the consistency in the way you rule. Ultimately, I think our stances are just too far apart to convince each other.
As a last ditch attempt though, I know what you quoted above, but:
Targeted Dispel: One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make one dispel check (1d20 + your caster level) and compare that to the spell with highest caster level (DC = 11 + the spell's caster level). If successful, that spell ends. If not, compare the same result to the spell with the next highest caster level. Repeat this process until you have dispelled one spell affecting the target, or you have failed to dispel every spell. If a level 20 wizard cast dispel magic at CL 5 for a targeted dispel, what would be the CL they'd use for their dispel check, 5 or 20? Note, casting at a lower level isn't a class feature or special ability, but something you can innately do. Also, is there a difference if they do have something like spell specialization?
nightfox the lost wrote: willuwontu wrote: Query, how do you rule bonuses to caster level when casting a spell (such as through Spell Specialization, Varisian Tattoo, alchemical power components, circlet of the moon, etc.) affecting your concentration check with that spell? Do they simply have no effect on your concentration check? As you have previously pointed out, you would have those various +x caster level when casting the appropriate spells. However that is only for you the caster. The scroll imposes it's own caster level for the spell. Cool, but I was asking in the context of your own spells. We already know that feats and abilities only apply to spells you cast.
BBangter realized what I meant though in their response.
willuwontu wrote:
As a last ditch attempt though, I know what you quoted above, but:
Targeted Dispel: One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make one dispel check (1d20 + your caster level) and compare that to the spell with highest caster level (DC = 11 + the spell's caster level). If successful, that spell ends. If not, compare the same result to the spell with the next highest caster level. Repeat this process until you have dispelled one spell affecting the target, or you have failed to dispel every spell. If a level 20 wizard cast dispel magic at CL 5 for a targeted dispel, what would be the CL they'd use for their dispel check, 5 or 20? Note, casting at a lower level isn't a class feature or special ability, but something you can...
I would rule that the dispel check is d20 + 5 here. The dispel check is a "level-dependent feature...based on the...caster level."
The counter question: If the 20th level wizard down casts a spell targeting a creature with SR what does the caster level check to overcome SR look like? I don't believe the SR check is a level-dependent feature of the spell. Although thematically I could see this working as a lowered caster level check, as the caster is putting less effort or force into their spell so has a lower chance of overcoming the creatures innate resistance. So I wouldn't really object to this ruling.
Regardless a spell completion item would use the item caster level for both a dispel magic or a SR check.
In both cases though, the dispel check and SR check are still not concentration checks. Dispel and SR (both caster level checks) are more an issue of how much power can you put behind your spell. A concentration check though is more about how much can the caster ignore distractions/pain to complete the casting.
For a spell completion item, the power level is based on how much power was put into its creation. The concentration check though has nothing to do with the original creator, but rather with the current user.
bbangerter wrote: The counter question: If the 20th level wizard down casts a spell targeting a creature with SR what does the caster level check to overcome SR look like? I don't believe the SR check is a level-dependent feature of the spell. Although thematically I could see this working as a lowered caster level check, as the caster is putting less effort or force into their spell so has a lower chance of overcoming the creatures innate resistance. So I wouldn't really object to this ruling. Caster level of the spell. Heh, I almost asked you that question last night, but:
To affect a creature that has spell resistance, a spellcaster must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) at least equal to the creature’s spell resistance. It doesn't specifically call out that it's "your caster level" (same wording as concentration uses) like dispel does, and it does a pretty good job of linking itself to the spell's power a bit further down.
Quote: Spell resistance has no effect unless the energy created or released by the spell actually goes to work on the resistant creature’s mind or body. So yeah ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
bbangerter wrote: Regardless a spell completion item would use the item caster level for both a dispel magic or a SR check.
In both cases though, the dispel check and SR check are still not concentration checks. Dispel and SR (both caster level checks) are more an issue of how much power can you put behind your spell. A concentration check though is more about how much can the caster ignore distractions/pain to complete the casting.
For a spell completion item, the power level is based on how much power was put into its creation. The concentration check though has nothing to do with the original creator, but rather with the current user.
Eh, I can understand that.
So if I understand this:
willuwontu believes that the concentration check is a form of caster level check and is part of the spell,
bbangerter believes that the concentration check uses caster level as part of the calculation but is not actually a caster level check and is independent of the spell.
Now back to the original question than, how do you calculate the concentration check when the sneaky rogue uses UMD.
Check: d20 + "Caster Level" + "Primary Casting Attribute"
nightfox the lost wrote: So if I understand this:
willuwontu believes that the concentration check is a form of caster level check and is part of the spell,
bbangerter believes that the concentration check uses caster level as part of the calculation but is not actually a caster level check and is independent of the spell.
For my part, yes. And I believe that is accurate summary willuwontu. Though I'm not sure willuwontu would necessarily say it is a form of a caster level check, only that it is dependent on the spell source. If not, then I've misunderstood somewhere some of the things willuwontu has said.
nightfox the lost wrote:
Now back to the original question than, how do you calculate the concentration check when the sneaky rogue uses UMD.
Check: d20 + "Caster Level" + "Primary Casting Attribute"
I noted this upthread that the rules don't actually tell us how this works, but gave my opinion of how I would run it.
nightfox the lost wrote: So if I understand this:
willuwontu believes that the concentration check is a form of caster level check and is part of the spell,
bbangerter believes that the concentration check uses caster level as part of the calculation but is not actually a caster level check and is independent of the spell.
Now back to the original question than, how do you calculate the concentration check when the sneaky rogue uses UMD.
Check: d20 + "Caster Level" + "Primary Casting Attribute"
Absent any other caster level, I'd say the Rogue's concentration check is 0 (number of caster levels) and Whatever ability score is appropriate for the spell.
nightfox the lost wrote: willuwontu believes that the concentration check is a form of caster level check and is part of the spell. Small correction, I believe that the caster level used as part of the concentration check is the same as the spell's caster level, not that a concentration check is a form of caster level check. Same way that a dispel check is not a caster level check, but uses the caster level of the spell.
nightfox the lost wrote: Now back to the original question than, how do you calculate the concentration check when the sneaky rogue uses UMD.
Check: d20 + "Caster Level" + "Primary Casting Attribute"
I too, have given my answer upthread.
Personally I’d rule a spellcaster to use their own caster level and ability score modifier for the concentration check when casting from a scroll tha tis on their class spell list, if casting from a scroll they have to UMD for the ability score modifier is determined by the scroll type. This rule would apply to non-spellcasters too meaning CL=0, ability modifier is Int or Wis depending on if its an arcane or divine scroll and Cha if the spell is only available to a standardly Charisma based class (or the only non-charisma options are higher cost scrolls or archetypes).
An interesting perspective to look into for a more RAW answer to this problem though might be to consider how concentration checks work with multiclass spellcasters. Do they use their highest CL? Does each class use separate concentration checks? Do they total their CL for concentration? Do they have separate Concentration checks for Arcane and Divine but the same across all classes of the same type?
Chell Raighn wrote:
An interesting perspective to look into for a more RAW answer to this problem though might be to consider how concentration checks work with multiclass spellcasters. Do they use their highest CL? Does each class use separate concentration checks? Do they total their CL for concentration? Do they have separate Concentration checks for Arcane and Divine but the same across all classes of the same type?
This would be entirely based upon the class that is producing the spell slot from which the spell is being cast.
eg, Wizard 10, magus 5. Both have magic missile in a 1st level spell slot from their class. If cast from the wizard slot it is CL 10. If cast from the magus spell slot it is CL 5. Just like the wizard spell slot would produce 5 missiles, while the magus spell slot would only produce 3.
If that same character had a scroll of MM, it would produce 1 missile, and IMO, give a concentration check based on the CL10 (the highest class that can cast the given spell from a scroll without UMD).
This is a rules SNAFU, to be honest. In 3.5, the character makes the check, but there are no defined rules for PF on how to make a Concentration check as a non-caster.
It is the same issue that arises when a Bard uses the Rheumy Refrain masterpiece to force Concentration checks from non-spellcasters.
There may be other places with the same issue as well.
It would be a very rare (if not unique) event but Caster Level can be "0". Offhand I can't recall that that has ever happened as RAW usually references a spell in question, a magic item, or a spellcaster(or Sp/SLA user).
Magical items have an CL imbedded in the item (either in crafting requirements or the spell referenced). It is not always given and may take some research. GMs take note and add to your notation on magic items & spells to make your GMming job easier.
Sometimes Caster Level can get a little tricky but usually the spell list and/or spell slot used will clear that up.
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