Worm That Walks Question


Rules Questions


Can a discorporated worm that walks cast spells? it says it loses all special attacks and special abilities, but doesn't really mention spells... feels like it could. I've seen the "worms can't talk" argument, but if they can't, how was he talking before?

Thanks in advance.


I would say they cannot cast most spells while discorporate. The worm that walks when in its normal form has a body including a mouth and hands. The body is composed of a mass of worms, but still functions as a body. Discorporate specifies it colipases into a shapeless swarm of worms. Since it is shapeless it no longer has a mouth or hands so cannot use spells with verbal or somatic components. It can no longer manipulate material components or focuses. So, unless the spell does not have any of those or similar components it cannot cast them.

If you have the right metamagic feats you might be able to cast spells. For example, a silent spell that only had a verbal component might work.


A silent still spell or a spell without verbal, somatic, or material components would be a candidate.

Pickup eschew materials and prepare spells that are either silent or stilled and ensure they don't have the other trait (or prepare silent still) and then you can cast.


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DAOFS wrote:

Can a discorporated worm that walks cast spells? it says it loses all special attacks and special abilities, but doesn't really mention spells... feels like it could. I've seen the "worms can't talk" argument, but if they can't, how was he talking before?

Thanks in advance.

no

In a monster entry Special Attacks will list Sp/SLAs and Spells Known... just like a creature that shape changed or polymorphed into a swarm could not cast spells without some very specific wording in the description.


A polymorphed druid could cast spells, except that they cannot supply material, somatic, or verbal components because of the limitations of their physical form. Natural spell feat makes it pretty clear that the benefit of the feat is that you get to substitute animal noises and movements for the normal somatic and verbal components a spell would have.

So, unless something makes it clear that spell casting is specifically forbidden it's possible, but difficult.

I don't think spells fall under special attacks or special abilities, although you might think differently and don't have an autoreactive source to say yes or no. But this would be the only thing that could possibly make it a flat no on casting. Otherwise, it's a "yes, but you can't normally supply the required spell components".


Claxon wrote:

A polymorphed druid could cast spells, except that they cannot supply material, somatic, or verbal components because of the limitations of their physical form. Natural spell feat makes it pretty clear that the benefit of the feat is that you get to substitute animal noises and movements for the normal somatic and verbal components a spell would have.

So, unless something makes it clear that spell casting is specifically forbidden it's possible, but difficult.

I don't think spells fall under special attacks or special abilities, although you might think differently and don't have an autoreactive source to say yes or no. But this would be the only thing that could possibly make it a flat no on casting. Otherwise, it's a "yes, but you can't normally supply the required spell components".

I get it (I run a lot of Wizards)... but notice there has to be some feat or special preparations for a spellcaster to cast after changing form. It's a common issue.

The monster has none of that and generally monsters come without a lot of equipment, feats, or magic items needed to do that post change.

The second problem is it's not a specific creature but a swarm. It is intentionally hard to kill in this form and modelled after the original stories. Shadow, yes. Skin, sure. Vargouille/flumph... ummm probably not (somatic! you need the Oni casting feats). Swarm... urr... no. You could base the decision on the Magic Item Body Slots table which would be quite sensible.

Lastly, Discorporate is Supernatural. Sure it looks like a spell but the spell & spell-like rules & constraints don't apply. I didn't really consider this too hard as it just puts the ability beyond normal spells. Discorporate clearly says, "collapse into a shapeless swarm of worms" and then other constraints. Not spellcasting worms, just worms of the vermin type with no voice, hands, or feet...

Basically with (first) two strikes against it the GM would have to take steps in changing the RAW monster about to fit his needs/wants and you fall from RAW into the Home Game arena. So it can be done - just the monster isn't built or written up that way. Discorporate is not the ability or spell you'd want to use for casting after a change.

If you check the monster stat blocks Known spells falls in after SLAs, so it is intentional as most spells are used for attack purposes. I'm not saying it's the best format but it is what it is...

All of that results in my saying "No".
... If you want to wangle into something Home Game, sure (ehhh, Skinsend would be particularly awesome!).


Azothath wrote:
Claxon wrote:

A polymorphed druid could cast spells, except that they cannot supply material, somatic, or verbal components because of the limitations of their physical form. Natural spell feat makes it pretty clear that the benefit of the feat is that you get to substitute animal noises and movements for the normal somatic and verbal components a spell would have.

So, unless something makes it clear that spell casting is specifically forbidden it's possible, but difficult.

I don't think spells fall under special attacks or special abilities, although you might think differently and don't have an autoreactive source to say yes or no. But this would be the only thing that could possibly make it a flat no on casting. Otherwise, it's a "yes, but you can't normally supply the required spell components".

I get it (I run a lot of Wizards)... but notice there has to be some feat or special preparations for a spellcaster to cast after changing form. It's a common issue.

The monster has none of that and generally monsters come without a lot of equipment, feats, or magic items needed to do that post change.

I mean, I do agree with this general statement, the worm that walks would need some feats or something to cast while a swarm, but only because they can't supply verbal, somatic, or material components. However they could have eschew material, and prepare a spell that only has one of those components (or maybe none) and use either still or silent spell metamagic feats. It's not as though there is 0 cost here. Worm that Walks is also typically an enemy and not a player character. So it's honestly not super important (IMO) about whether or not spells are included in special abilities, as he GM really only needs to consider whether or not this enemy is balanced for an encounter. If the character pays the price to cast by preparing all their spells silent/still it's going to reduce their effective power enough (because of the heightened spell cost) that it's going to be a problem.

If for some reason a GM allows a player to play a worm that walks...well ultimately ask the GM. Because the concerns for how to handle the defensive capabilities of a swarm PC is different than if the character is an enemy.


A Worm-that-walks as a PC would mean we are not in core RAW anymore. We have entered the T̶w̶i̶l̶i̶g̶h̶t̶ Crazy Zone. Welcome to Call of Cthulhu!

I think you are dismissing the (vermin) swarm NOT being able to cast far too easily. There's a lot of contention over hands, grasping, casting, blah blah blah. It's why I suggested using the PFS Magic Item Body Slot table (MIBS) for familiars & animal companions and the FAQ that follows it as a RAW source to base a GM denial on as it short circuits all the chatter about hands (I'm sure there's one in RAW too but the PFS one is a bit more expansive). Personally I don't agree that you need "hands" but it is a simple argument and the MIBS table keeps you within reasonable RAW(even if it is for PFS). People just didn't play 3.5 and Forgotten Realms.


Azothath wrote:
A Worm-that-walks as a PC would mean we are not in core RAW anymore.

That's not true, worshipping Yhidothrus as an evangelist lets you become a worm that walks.


willuwontu wrote:
Azothath wrote:
A Worm-that-walks as a PC would mean we are not in core RAW anymore.
That's not true, worshipping Yhidothrus as an evangelist lets you become a worm that walks.

don't forget the product advisory

Content Advisory
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Book of the Damned deals with many dark and intense concepts. The topic of demons and devils is not for everyone, nor is exploration of the themes these fiends embody and the practices they demand of their worshipers. You should make sure that your game group is comfortable with the contents of this book before using them in play—if even one player is uncomfortable with including some of the concepts in here, you should set those portions of the book (or the entire book) aside and focus on other plots for your game. Buyers should beware that the content of this book is not appropriate for all ages, and parents especially are encouraged to review the book before buying it.

along with 9 levels in a Prestige class to get the third boon.
that sounds like core RAW... LoL


Not being RAW would be applying a template explicitly not meant for creatures with class levels to a PC.NPC (e.g. an advanced template on PC/NPC). It is 100% RAW to apply a template to a creature that has no limitations on what can be it (or is perfectly within those limitations), whether that is a monster, NPC, or PC. Maybe what you mean is "outside the standard realm of play" which would be correct but "player (even paladin) becomes and undead" is perhaps the most common trope for giving a PC a template, next to "deal with a devil, Devil Bound template", "Wizard becomes a Lich", "Fighter becomes a Graveknight", and "Nualia the Demon-transformed, Fiendish template"; a worm that walks PC, even without a highly suspect book that has "scary evil topics" to make a clear and obvious path to becoming one, is in no way against RAW.

For my 2cp in this debate... There is at least one and I'm farely sure there are more cases where Worms that Walk are explicitly described in monster stat block tactics as being unable to cast while in a discorporated state:

Kingmaker Book 6: Sound of a Thousand Screams, pg. 46 wrote:
Discorporate (Su) The Wriggling Man can collapse his body into a shapeless swarm of worms as a free action. He drops all held, worn, and carried items, and his Strength score changes to 1. He functions as a true swarm while discorporated, and has a reach of 0 feet (his space remains unchanged). While discorporated, he loses all of his defensive abilities but gains all of the standard swarm traits. He also loses his slam attack and all special abilities and special attacks, but can make a swarm attack that inflicts 5d6 points of damage. He can reform into his true form as a full-round action, as long as he has at least 1 hit point—doing so provokes an attack of opportunity.

Now, are spells a Special Attack/Ability, maybe not, but I'd argue it is, as they are listed as such in stat blocks and anything that isn't just a normal weapon/unarmed/natural attack is basically a "special attack" or ability at the very least.


Azothath wrote:
willuwontu wrote:
Azothath wrote:
A Worm-that-walks as a PC would mean we are not in core RAW anymore.
That's not true, worshipping Yhidothrus as an evangelist lets you become a worm that walks.

don't forget the product advisory

...

Commentary

my point was that I added an adjective before "RAW" to indicate the usual course of actual play (the game is clearly biased towards Neutral to Good morally aligned PCs). I understand that people want to make a pedantic point at times, I too occasionally point something out. So fair is fair with the accompanying disclaimers. Often those get left out as AoN doesn't list them or associated text, just the PFS Legal token and sometimes some PFS restrictions. It enforces my use of the adjective "core", perhaps I could have used "usual". I did try to be a bit humorous, ahh well... lol

The Book of the Damned was 3 softcovers that then got expanded into a single hardcover. It was a good job adding the three evil tracks and pinning the boons to various prestige levels. It really paved the way for evil NPCs and the occasional evil PC.
For fun I'll point you to my Worm that Inhabits CR:15

If you run an Evil PC game have fun as in my experience they have a limited lifespan before they blow up or people call it quits. It just feeds into the worst behaviors at the table and that limits its duration.


Azothath wrote:
If you run an Evil PC game have fun as in my experience they have a limited lifespan before they blow up or people call it quits. It just feeds into the worst behaviors at the table and that limits its duration.

YMMV but evil campaigns don't inherently make campaigns fail. They exacerbate bad player behaviors but plenty of "good campaigns" end for the exact same behaviors. Personally, whenever I see it happen, whether the character is good/evil/lawful/chaotic or even TN, games breakdown because players stop trying to tell an interesting story and are just focused on actually getting what their character (if not just what them the player) wants above any of the actual nuance of good storytelling. Literally each of the "X Stupid or Stupid X" alignments all are "stupid" because they are single-minded to the point of infuriating obtuseness.

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