Green Smashomancer |
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Hello guys, I would like to post my Saiyan race for critique. Will be used with Kineticist.
Linkified.
EDIT: I'm going to assume Saiyans aren't meant for a typical campaign? I know I'd kill for the ability to turn into an Oozaru, course that could really mess with a plotline. Stuck in prison? The guards better hope you get out before a full moon. Some interesting mechanics for the tail, I'll have to think more on that one.
Green Smashomancer |
I don't actually know too much about Dragonball Z, but shouldn't all their ability scores just be absurdly, this-obviously-isn't-anywhere-close-to-balanced high?
Heh, not the mental ones.
EDIT: After a bit more looking, I think you've accidentally given the tail a Bite attack. With poison. And while Kineticist is fairly thematic, I think the +4 to Con would be way too strong in combination. I would flip the constitution and strength bonuses.
Talonhawke |
I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:I don't actually know too much about Dragonball Z, but shouldn't all their ability scores just be absurdly, this-obviously-isn't-anywhere-close-to-balanced high?Heh, not the mental ones.
EDIT: After a bit more looking, I think you've accidentally given the tail a Bite attack. With poison. And while Kineticist is fairly thematic, I think the +4 to Con would be way too strong in combination. I would flip the constitution and strength bonuses.
Yeah Saiyans aren't know for brains. And Abridged Saiyans even less so.
kyrt-ryder |
Needs a Super Saiyan a race-exclusive prestige class which progresses through the stages as it levels.
Whatever game this occurs in needs easy and simple access to ki power type stuff-probably via feats- including flight available from level 5 or so onwards. [I might actually open it up before that if flight is very very expensive in terms of the Ki Resource at low levels. A few rounds of flight per day at level 3 isn't going to hurt anything especially if its at the cost of using other ki powers.]
I'm Hiding In Your Closet |
Yeah Saiyans aren't know for brains. And Abridged Saiyans even less so.
What about Camille Saint Saiyans?
Goth Guru |
Talonhawke wrote:What about Camille Saint Saiyans?Yeah Saiyans aren't know for brains. And Abridged Saiyans even less so.
Good joke but no relation.
I made the Forceborn mutation for Saiyans and such. Also the Tsunami Wave feat is loosely based on the Kamayama Wave.Go to Leveled Mutations.
I'm Hiding In Your Closet |
Joking aside, it seems too sparse. The "instant-kaiju-just-add-moonlight" trick is fun, but it's practically all they've got. I think Artificial Moon (as far as I can tell, mostly just a way for you to achieve the previous trick on demand) needs to go. I agree with whoever said the +4 to Constitution is just making it a wish-fulfillment engine for playing a Kineticist, and would tentatively suggest just giving +2 to all physical abilities, and easing off the mental penalties a little accordingly (or you could keep those penalties at their current level in exchange for more other features). Those alterations taken care of, it needs more interesting stuff. What are Saiyans good at? What does their culture lend itself well to? What inhuman abilities and skills might their racial history and the ecology of their homeworld have left them with other than the ability modifiers?
Skaeren |
well, I built it using the race creation, Paragon for con because Saiyans can take a beating, more than anything else. Adv str and dex because they are warriors.
The moonlight thing Vegeta demonstrated and said that all elite warriors learn to do it. Together with Oozaru, it is, effectively, a 1/day rage with its own set of drawbacks. The tail is thematic.
But not counting tail, moonlight and oozaru, the race already comes in at 13rp, I think it was. Does anyone have any suggestions of things to add, change, etc?
chbgraphicarts |
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This link was added to the clipboard by drive itself, so it should work better for people.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1btIpFEZ4TWkzT3AU4Lp4lQXe-V558tij2C9EMTI smZc/edit?usp=sharing
Just, overall, what do people think of the race itself.
The Stats don't particularly add up.
Goku and Vegeta are both tough as nails, yes, but Nappa wasn't shown to be particularly dextrous.
At the same time, while Goku and Nappa are both dumb as boards, Raditz seemed of average-to-above-average intelligence, and Vegeta is both highly intelligent and surprisingly wise.
Saiyans, prior to Goku's and Vegeta's offspring, were naturally neither that incredibly tough nor that insanely strong - they have the POTENTIAL to be, but most Saiyans in the Dragon Ball universe only had a Power Level of a few hundred (i.e. more than enough to eradicate a planet's population by themselves, but not very impressive in the grand scheme of Frieza's forces.
What they ALL lack is a distinct level of tact; they're proud warriors, and are all apparently very stubborn and blunt (Gohan being the SOLE exception, which may just be a naturally-high Cha offsetting the racial quality).
Instead of the +4 to Con, perhaps just:
+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Cha, plus Toughness as a Racial Bonus Feat.
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Additionally, you're missing THE key ability of Saiyans, which isn't the ability to transform into a Great Ape - it's Zenkai, or the ability of a Saiyan to grow more powerful the closer they come to death.
Perhaps make it something like:
Zenkai (Ex) Whenever a Saiyan heals Hit Points lost by Damage from Combat, he gains 1xp for every 2 Hit Points regained.
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The Great Ape mode should be a racial drawback, akin to uncontrolled Lycanthropy. Normal and Half-Saiyans with Tails, like Goku and Gohan, should follow the same rules as a Lycanthrope when transformed.
The ability to control the Great Ape mode should be a Feat reserved for powerful Saiyans alone (or, like Drow Nobles, a Saiyan Noble like Vegeta has control over his Great Ape form naturally, and has a much-higher RP value as a result).
Half-Saiyans should NOT have Great Ape as a default ability - Toriyama himself has said that the Tail is a recessive genetic trait, which is why both Trunks and Goten don't have Tails, nor does Pan when she's born. Instead, that should be an Alternate Racial Trait for them.
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Saiyan Tails should not be attacks in the slightest; Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, nor Nappa used their Tails as a Tail Slap, and only Raditz was ever shown to do so.
Raditz could have gained a Tail Slap as a Race Feat.
Instead, it should be a straight-up Prehensile Tail like a Tiefling's.
Normal Saiyans should also gain a drawback in the form of being Stunned while their Tails are Grappled.
Saiyan Nobles (like Vegeta), should not have this drawback.
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Artificial Moon is NOT a Racial Trait.
It's a Feat, and one that should require a high Character Level and/or sufficiently-high Stats.
chbgraphicarts |
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Try something more like this, honestly:
SAIYAN
Standard Racial Traits
Ability Score Racial Traits: Saiyans are a strong, tough race, who, as a result, are stubborn, blunt, and often standoffish. Saiyans gain +2 Str, +2 Con, and -2 Cha.
Type: Saiyans are humanoids with the saiyan subtype.
Size: Saiyans are Medium creatures and thus receive no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Speed: Saiyans have a base speed of 30 feet.
Languages: Saiyans begin play speaking Common.
Feat & Skill Racial Traits
Iron-Sided (Ex) Saiyans begin play with Toughness as a Bonus Feat
Prehensile Tail (Ex) A Saiyan has a long, flexible tail that she can use to carry objects. She cannot wield weapons with her tail, but the tail allows her to retrieve a small, stowed object carried on her person as a swift action.
Senses Racial Traits
Low-Light Vision (Ex) Saiyans have Low-Light Vision.
Scent (Ex) Saiyans have the Scent extraordinary ability
Other Racial Traits
Zenkai (Ex) Whenever a Saiyan heals Hit Point Damage sustained in Combat, she gains 1 Experience Point for every 2 Hit Points healed this way.
Weaknesses
Change Shape (Ex)On nights when the full moon is visible, a Saiyan with a Tail observing the Moon must make a DC35 Will Save or become a Great Ape. When in this form, her size becomes Gargantuan, she gains a +6 Size Modifier to Strength and Constitution, a -6 modifier to her Dexterity, a +8 Bonus to her Natural Armor, -4 Modifier to AC, her type changes to Monstrous Humanoid (Great Ape), and she gains a Bite Attack.
When she Changes Shape, a Saiyan must make a DC30 Will Save or automatically enter an Uncontrolled Rage, as the Class Feature of the Wild Rager Barbarian Archetype (treating her Hit Dice as her Barbarian Level the bonus provided by this effect). She remains in this Rage for as long as her Shape is Changed. She becomes Exhausted when she reverts back to her original Form for a number of Minutes equal to twice the number of Rounds she was transformed.
A Saiyan reverts to her normal form the following morning or if her Tail is severed.
Sensitive Tail Saiyans with Tails have a considerable weakness to harm caused to it. While her Tail is tightly gripped, such as when a Grapple is made against it as a Called Shot (AC modifier equal to that of an Arm), she is Stunned for the entire time that the Tail is Grappled.
chbgraphicarts |
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SAIYAN NOBLE
Standard Racial Traits
Ability Score Racial Traits: Saiyan Nobles are a stronger and tougher than normal Saiyans, but also proud to a fault. Saiyans gain +4 Str, +4 Con, and -4 Cha.
Type: Saiyans are humanoids with the saiyan subtype.
Size: Saiyans are Medium creatures and thus receive no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Speed: Saiyans have a base speed of 30 feet.
Languages: Saiyans begin play speaking Common.
Feat & Skill Racial Traits
Iron-Sided (Ex) Saiyan Nobles begin play with Toughness as a Bonus Feat
Prehensile Tail (Ex) A Saiyan has a long, flexible tail that she can use to carry objects. She cannot wield weapons with her tail, but the tail allows her to retrieve a small, stowed object carried on her person as a swift action.
Senses Racial Traits
Low-Light Vision (Ex) Saiyans have Low-Light Vision.
Scent (Ex) Saiyans have the Scent extraordinary ability
Other Racial Traits
Zenkai (Ex) Whenever a Saiyan Noble heals Hit Point Damage sustained in Combat, she gains 1 Experience Point for every Hit Point healed this way.
Change Shape (Ex)On nights when the full moon is visible, a Saiyan with a Tail observing the Moon becomes a Great Ape. When in this form, her size becomes Gargantuan, she gains a +6 Size Modifier to Strength and Constitution, a -6 modifier to her Dexterity, a +8 Bonus to her Natural Armor, -4 Modifier to AC, her type changes to Monstrous Humanoid (Great Ape), and she gains a Bite Attack.
While in Great Ape form, a Saiyan Noble may enter a Rage as a Free Action as the Barbarian Class Feature of the same name, treating her total HD as her Barbarian Level for determining the duration and Bonuses of this Rage, and her Great Ape modified constitution value as her base Constitution value for the purposes of determining the duration of this Rage.
She becomes Exhausted when she reverts back to her original Form for a number of Minutes equal to twice the number of Rounds she was transformed.
A Saiyan reverts to her normal form the following morning or if her Tail is severed.
LazarX |
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What they ALL lack is a distinct level of tact; they're proud warriors, and are all apparently very stubborn and blunt (Gohan being the SOLE exception, which may just be a naturally-high Cha offsetting the racial quality).
Or unlike every other Saiyan in existence, Gohan simply had a mother who taught him humility and proper manners.
chbgraphicarts |
chbgraphicarts wrote:What they ALL lack is a distinct level of tact; they're proud warriors, and are all apparently very stubborn and blunt (Gohan being the SOLE exception, which may just be a naturally-high Cha offsetting the racial quality).Or unlike every other Saiyan in existence, Gohan simply had a mother who taught him humility and proper manners.
Goten had the same mom, though...
kyrt-ryder |
LazarX wrote:Goten had the same mom, though...chbgraphicarts wrote:What they ALL lack is a distinct level of tact; they're proud warriors, and are all apparently very stubborn and blunt (Gohan being the SOLE exception, which may just be a naturally-high Cha offsetting the racial quality).Or unlike every other Saiyan in existence, Gohan simply had a mother who taught him humility and proper manners.
Chichi got more lenient and less violent by the time Goten was born.
chbgraphicarts |
The oozaru form shouldn't have a a Dex penalty. When Vegeta transformed he still was insanely fast and maybe even more than in humanoid form
Dexterity =/= Speed.
You can be slow as a glacier and extremely dextrous; conversely, you can be fast as lightning and still be a clumsy f*$@.
Vegeta, while stupidly fast as a Great Ape, is also very, very lumbering, and wouldn't count as "dexterous" by any means.
Sauce987654321 |
Entryhazard wrote:The oozaru form shouldn't have a a Dex penalty. When Vegeta transformed he still was insanely fast and maybe even more than in humanoid formDexterity =/= Speed.
You can be slow as a glacier and extremely dextrous; conversely, you can be fast as lightning and still be a clumsy f@@!.
Well not as far as the actual base speed mechanic, but dex does seem to be an abstraction for being "fast." I figured this when I noticed cats and leopards have high dex but still have a land speed of 30. Another example would be when running a chase, because you use mainly dex based skills to determine the outcome while speed only gives you bonuses.
But I do agree that Great Apes should have a dex penalty, because everything that grows larger in pathfinder has dex penalties. I don't think Vegeta should be an exception.
chbgraphicarts |
But I do agree that Great Apes should have a dex penalty, because everything that grows larger in pathfinder has dex penalties. I don't think Vegeta should be an exception.
And looking at the fight between Goku and Vegeta as a Great Ape, there was a Chase, and Vegeta didn't duck and weave around those rock formations so much as just run them the f#!% over, while Goku is bouncing all over the place trying to avoid Vegeta hitting him.
Note that everything I'm saying about Saiyans and Great Apes is from the Dragonball comic, Battle of Gods/Resurrection F/Super only; no filler things from Dragonball Z and nothing from Dragonball GT - GT never was canon to the original comic, and it's deader-than-dead now that Toriyama's stated that Dragonball Super is the official continuation of the comic. Broly isn't, either - none of the movies before Battle of Gods is canon to the comic, and Super overrides even the movies where the storylines conflict.
Scud422 |
I love chbgraphicarts' re-write.
I would change Zenkai so they only gain XP if they drop below 0. I would also add that they don't gain negative levels when resurrected.
I'm very conflicted about whether or not to allow PCs to do this.
On one hand, it could get very cheeseball. On the other hand, it's obviously in theme.
kyrt-ryder |
I'm very conflicted about whether or not to allow PCs to do this.
On one hand, it could get very cheeseball. On the other hand, it's obviously in theme.
I wouldn't necessarily say that- or Zenkai as a whole- is truly in theme with the saiyan race. Yes it was highlighted during the arc that exposed more of the setting than any other, but it was only incorporated into one arc in the entire dragonball story. At no point ANYWHERE else is it even implied that these monkeys get stronger by getting their asses kicked.
LazarX |
chbgraphicarts wrote:Chichi got more lenient and less violent by the time Goten was born.LazarX wrote:Goten had the same mom, though...chbgraphicarts wrote:What they ALL lack is a distinct level of tact; they're proud warriors, and are all apparently very stubborn and blunt (Gohan being the SOLE exception, which may just be a naturally-high Cha offsetting the racial quality).Or unlike every other Saiyan in existence, Gohan simply had a mother who taught him humility and proper manners.
Raising both Gohan and his father took a lot out of her.
LazarX |
LazarX wrote:In addition to Charisma, Saiyans should also take a penalty to wisdom, as they were about as foolish and inperceptive as they were mighty.Maybe Goku has colored my perceptions, but I was under the impression Saiyans had really, really really strong instincts.
The only instincts that Saiyans had were for boneheaded stubbornness... they didn't need to be perceptive, they simply just wiped out whatever was around them. Goku's sensei had his work cut out for him in smoothing out those tendencies in Goku himself.
Entryhazard |
Scud422 wrote:I wouldn't necessarily say that- or Zenkai as a whole- is truly in theme with the saiyan race. Yes it was highlighted during the arc that exposed more of the setting than any other, but it was only incorporated into one arc in the entire dragonball story. At no point ANYWHERE else is it even implied that these monkeys get stronger by getting their asses kicked.I'm very conflicted about whether or not to allow PCs to do this.
On one hand, it could get very cheeseball. On the other hand, it's obviously in theme.
Super Perfect Cell is still a thing
kyrt-ryder |
kyrt-ryder wrote:Super Perfect Cell is still a thingScud422 wrote:I wouldn't necessarily say that- or Zenkai as a whole- is truly in theme with the saiyan race. Yes it was highlighted during the arc that exposed more of the setting than any other, but it was only incorporated into one arc in the entire dragonball story. At no point ANYWHERE else is it even implied that these monkeys get stronger by getting their asses kicked.I'm very conflicted about whether or not to allow PCs to do this.
On one hand, it could get very cheeseball. On the other hand, it's obviously in theme.
I'm pretty sure Cell was b!#+$%*~ting about that being a saiyan trait and it was actually programmed into him from scratch.
Could be mistaken though.
Cyrad RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32 |
kyrt-ryder |
Is this a player race? It's pretty broken for a player race. Heck, even in Dragon Ball, Saiyans are insanely overpowered.
I'd argue otherwise. Saiyans aren't insanely overpowered in the DB universe. Keep in mind Super Saiyan is SUPPOSED to be crazy crazy rare, and according to Dragonball Super even post-buu Goku still wouldn't be a match for Frieza in his base form.
What the Saiyans have is not being a pathetic underpowered race like Humans, probably about on par with Warrior Namekians.
Frieza and all of his upper tier henchmen [Ginyu Force, Zarbon, Dodoria....] come by their power naturally. Those are broken races.
Goth Guru |
There are several kinds of cheese given to humans. Saiyans don't get the extra feat, choice of a dual class, and whatever humans get. Saiyans don't have a racial weapon like elves and such.
The op's write up is pretty balanced because the monkey's size is limited by level. Also it's only during a full moon, real or artificial. Late stage lycanthropes can morph for battle without moonlight.
Cyrad RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32 |