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Leaving these here as example builds:

SAINT MIGHTY THE ARMADILLO - Human/Half-Orc/Half-Elf/Scion-Of-Humanity-Aasimar Warpriest

Race Hum Weapon Finesse
CL1 Wrp1 Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Klar)
CL2 Wrp2
CL3 Wrp3 Improved Shield Bash, Duel Enhancement
CL4 Wrp4
CL5 Wrp5 Double Slice
CL6 Wrp6 Shield Slam, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
CL7 Wrp7 Greater Weapon Focus (Klar)
CL8 Wrp8
CL9 Wrp9 ???, ???
CL10 Wrp10
CL11 Wrp11 ???
CL12 Wrp12 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Shield Master

lv12 full attack:

+11/+11/+6/+6/+1, 1d10 base damage per attack.

At lv12, can/should retrain to Champion of the Faith, since from then on there is no need to use the basic Sacred Weapon - Shield Master provides a better/permanent Bonus to attack/damage, and thus Dual Enhancement is redundant (so it's safe to lose now).

You, then, get a much-cheaper +5 enhancement to your attacks, a bonus to damage equal to your Charisma, a full attack that is naturally higher than the Sacred Fist's (identical if the SF has Weapon Focus), and should have the highest AC of any Warpriest build.

If you chose to be a half-human via Scion of Humanity, Half-Elf, or Half-Orc, then you have to put off some feats by a Feat Slot in order to gain Weapon Finesse, but the results can be that you get extra tidbits.

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For those wanting to try out a Sword-And-Board build, here's one, and it focuses almost exclusively on Dex:

Deity Feronia Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword)
Race Human Two-Weapon Fighting
CL1 Wrp1 Weapon Focus (Light Shield), Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword)
CL2 Swsh1 Weapon Finesse (Piercing)
CL3 Wrp2 Slashing Grace (Bastard Sword)
CL4 Wrp3 Dual Enhancement
CL5 Wrp4 Shield Slam
CL6 Wrp5
CL7 Wrp6 Double Slice, ???, Improved Two-Weapon fighting
CL8 Wrp7
CL9 Wrp8 ???
CL10 Wrp9 ???
CL11 Wrp10 ???

---

Making the Warpriest as SAD as possible is nice, yes, and that includes making Wis-to-hit, but I'm not sure about Longbow.

A Double-Barreled Pistol or a Crossbow on the other hand...

A one-level dip into Gunslinger, especially Pistolero, works extremely well - Grit being based upon Wisdom means you're going to have a whole lot of it.

HOLY GUN
Blessings Air, Law/Chaos/Good
Race Hmn Point-Blank Shot
CL1 Pist1 Precise Shot, Gunsmithing
CL2 Wrp1 Weapon Focus (Pistol)
CL3 Wrp2 Rapid Reload (Pistol)
CL4 Wrp3 (Filler Combat Feat) >>> Retrain to Channel Smite at lv4
CL5 Wrp4 Guided Hand
CL6 Wrp5
CL7 Wrp6 Rapid Shot, Weapon Specialization, Point-Blank Master
CL8 Wrp7
CL9 Wrp8 ???
CL10 Wrp9 Greater Weapon Focus
CL11 Wrp10 Quicken Blessing (Law/Chaos/Good)
CL12 Wrp11

A Double-Barrel Pistol will effectively get you as many shots off as if you were a two-Weapon fighter, and if you're within 30ft, you'll be getting a +2 (+1 from WF, +1 from PBS), offsetting the double-tap.

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LANCE DU POND - 2-Handed Champion of the Faith

Stats:
Human/Half-Elf/ Ancestral Arms Half Elf/Toothy Half-Orc: Str 17 (15+2) / Dex 10 / Con 13 / Int 10 / Wis 14 / Cha 14
Shaman's Apprentice Half-Orc: Str 15 / Dex 10 / Con 15 (13+2) / Int 10 / Wis 14 / Cha 14
Scion of Humanity Aasimar: Str 15 / Dex 10 / Con 13 / Int 10 / Wis 15 (13+2) / Cha 17 (15+2)

Deity: Shizuru, Gorum, Chaldira

Deity's Favored Weapon: Katana (Shizuru) - Large weapon
Ancestral Arms: Elven Curve Blade
Alternate Weapon: Nodachi (naturally a Martial Weapon)

Variant Channeling: Battle (Heal)(Chaldira) / Battle (Harm) (Gorum) / Weapons (Gorum) / Luck (Chaldira)

Blessings: Good, Glory (Shizuru) / Chaos, Destruction (Gorum) / Good, Luck (Chaldira)

Race Improved Initiative (Hu) / Skill Focus - Intimidate (HE) / Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Elven Curve Blade AAHE / Endurance (SAHO) / Bite Attack (THO) / <Racial Heritage: Aasimar> (SoH)
Chmp1 Toughness, Weapon Focus - [two-handed weapon]
Chmp2
Chmp3 Power Attack (Hu, AAHE, SoH) / Antagonize (HE) / Diehard (SAHO) / Weapon Focus - Bite (THO)
Chmp4
Chmp5 Divine Protection
Chmp6 Improved Critical (Hu, AAHE, HE, SoH) / Deathless Initiate (SAHO) / Hammer the Gap (THO), Weapon Specialization - [two-handed weapon]
Chmp7 Surge of Success (Hu) / Elven Battle Training (AAHE) / Intimidating Confidence (HE) / Ironhide (SAHO) / Extra Channel (THO) / Heavenly Radiance (SoH)
Chmp8
Chmp9 Hammer the Gap (Hu, AAHE, HE, SoH) / Deathless Master (SAHO) / Improved Critical (THO), Greater Weapon Focus
Chmp10
Chmp11 Quicken Blessing
Chmp12 Critical Versatility, Critical Focus (Hu, AAHE, HE, SoH, THO) / Toughness, Improved Critical (SAHO)

There are basically 6 paths available here, based on your Race. All make use of Critical Hits to auto-hit and deal extra damage (offsetting the fewer attacks and lower BAB compared to a typical Paladin), but how much of a focus and how it meshes depends on the Race.

Human is an entirely vanilla Critical-Fighter. It gets bonuses to succeed on Critical Hits and gets extra tricks based on them. It also gets Improved Initiative, to somewhat make up for the lack of Dex in the stats. Any of the other three half-humans can take this build, as well (sans Imp. Init.), but they each have their own tricks.

Half-Elf focuses on Intimidate. Skill Focus at lv1 adds to its already-freakish Intimidate check from having a high Charisma. Antagonize allows you to control the flow of battle, and Intimidating Confidence lets you make an Intimidate check whenever you score a Critical Hit. Shizuru is really the only choice of Deity here (Glory Blessing, people - GLORY). A vanilla Half-Orc can also take this build, but they're not nearly as good at it (+2 Racial Bonus to Intimidate for a Half-Orc isn't great compared to +3 from lv1-9, +6 thereafter that a Half-Elf).

Ancestral Arms Half-Elf: This is pretty much identical to the Human but for one main difference: Elven Battle Training gives you an additional Attack of Opportunity with an Elven Curveblade, which is as close to using Combat Reflexes (and stacks with, interestingly) as you'll ever get with a piddling 10 Dexterity. EBT is pretty much the only reason to take this over a straight Half-Elf wielding a Nodachi, aside from flavor reasons (if you're playing with rolled stats and going above lv12, though, totally take this and Combat Reflexes - it's actually pretty nasty).

Shaman's Apprentice Half-Orc basically drops Improved Critical and Hammer the Gap until the very last level. The trade-off here is that you are a SPONGE, and basically don't die until you're dead. This build starts with Endurance as a Racial Bonus Feat by forgoing the Half-Orc's +2 Racial Bonus to Intimidate via Shaman's Apprentice, and then builds up from there with Diehard, Ironhide (hey, +1 Natural Armor isn't terrible), Deathless Initiate, and Deathless Master (why Ironhide is used at all).

Toothy Half-Orc borrows a trick from the Barbarian. While it's not Come And Get Me, Reverse Feint is part of a really nice little combo: You use Battle Variant Channel (Harm) to give penalties to your opponent on Damage and Crit-Hit rolls as a Standard Action (effectively granting you and your allies temporary DR/-); as a Move Action, you use Reverse Feint, giving them a bonus to hit, but letting you attack as an Immediate Action (that's separate from an AoO), at +2 to-hit. Extra Channel means you can do this more often. And by taking Toothy, it also gains an additional attack. This basically can only take Gorum as a god, but it wouldn't want anything else anyway, really.

Scion of Humanity Aasimar is the most magically-adept of the five. It gets +2 Wis and Charisma, making it a real nasty little piece of work for both Smiting and spellcasting. Scion gets the best defenses, and departs a bit from the base Human build by taking Heavenly Radiance in order to gain spell-like abilities (Searing Light is probably the best choice).

Regardless of how you build this, your Dex is garbage, so you're better off wearing Heavy Armor to subsist with this.

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Double-Starknife / Thrower Warpriest
Human Warpriest 10 / Guide Ranger 2
BASE STATS Str 12 / Dex 18 (16+2) / Con 14 / Int 12 / Wis 14 / Cha 7
STATS at lv12 Str 13 / Dex 26 (16+2+3+6) / Con 14 / Int 12 / Wis 14 / Cha 7

TRAITS Fate’s Favored, ???
BLESSINGS Air, ???

Race Weapon Finesse
CL1 Wrp1 Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Starknife)
CL2 Rng1 Track
CL3 Rng2 Double Slice, Precise Shot
CL4 Wrp2
CL5 Wrp3 ???*, Quick Draw
CL6 Wrp4
CL7 Wrp5 Point-Blank Shot
CL8 Wrp6 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Specialization
CL9 Wrp7 Rapid Shot
CL10 Wrp8
CL11 Wrp9 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Weapon Focus
CL12 Wrp10

GEAR
• Blinkback Belt
• +3 Starknife
• +3 Starknife

Sacred Weapon +2
Sacred Armor +2

Full Attack at lv12 (Sacred Weapon & Divine Power Active)
+25 / +25 / +25 / +25 / +20 / +20 / +15

* Retrain to Dual Enhancement at lv6

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Champion of the Faith - Dwarven Double Waraxe, Two-Handed

Race: Dwarf
Highest Stat: Strength
Secondary Stats: Wisdom, Charisma
Tertiary Stat: Constitution
Dump Stats: Dexterity, Intelligence
Armor: Full Plate
Blessings: Good, Luck

CL1 Power Attack*, Weapon Focus (Dwarven Double Waraxe), Chosen Alignment - Good
CL2
CL3 Cleave, Detect Alignment
CL4 Smite, Sacred Weapon - Good vs DR
CL5 Cleaving Finish
CL6 ???
CL7 Toughness
CL8
CL9 Greater Weapon Focus, Improved Critical
CL10
CL11 Quicken Blessing - Good
CL12 ???, Sacred Weapon - Holy Enhancement

* Use a filler Feat at first, then retrain to Power Attack at lv2

---

Champion of the Faith / Armored Hulk Barbarian - Dwarven Longhammer, Two-Handed

Race: Dwarf
Highest Stat: Strength
Secondary Stats: Constitution, Charisma
Tertiary Stat: Wisdom
Dump Stats: Dexterity, Intelligence
Armor: Full Plate
Blessings: Good, Luck

CL1 Wrp1 Catch-Off Guard*, Weapon Focus (Dwarven Longhammer), Chosen Alignment - Good
CL2 Brb1
CL3 Brb2 Power Attack, Reckless Abandon
CL4 Wrp2
CL5 Wrp3 Toughness/Extra Rage
CL6 Wrp4 Smite, Sacred Weapon - Good (vs DR)
CL7 Wrp5 Extra Rage/Toughness
CL8 Wrp6 Improved Critical
CL9 Wrp7 ???
CL10 Wrp8 ???**
CL11 Wrp9 ???****
CL12 Wrp10

* to treat the shaft of the Longhammer as a Quarterstaff.
** Retrain to Greater Weapon Focus at lv10
*** Retrain to Quicken Blessing - Good at lv12

---

Warpriest - Nodachi, Two-Handed

Race: Human
Highest Stat: Strength
Secondary Stats: Wisdom, Charisma
Tertiary Stat: Constitution
Dump Stats: Dexterity, Intelligence
Armor: Full Plate
Blessings: Good, Luck

Race Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Katana
CL1 Wrp1 ???*, Weapon Focus (Nodachi)
CL2 Wrp2
CL3 Wrp3 ???, ???
CL4 Wrp4
CL5 Wrp5 ???
CL6 Wrp6 Weapon Specialization, ???*
CL7 Wrp7 ???
CL8 Wrp8
CL9 Wrp9 Improved Critical (Nodachi), Critical Focus**
CL10 Wrp10
CL11 Wrp11 ???
CL12 Wrp12 Critical Versatility, ???

* Use a filler Feat at first, then retrain to Power Attack at lv2

---

Warpriest - Nodachi, Two-Handed, plus Dwarven Boulder Helmet

Race: Dwarf
Highest Stat: Strength
Secondary Stats: Constitution, Wisdom
Tertiary Stat: Dexterity
Dump Stats: Charisma, Int
Armor: Full Plate
Blessings: Good, Luck

CL1 Power Attack*, Weapon Focus (Dwarven Boulder Helmet)
CL2
CL3 Improved Bull Rush, Two-Weapon Fighting
CL4
CL5 Pushing Assault
CL6 Greater Bull Rush**
CL7 Furious Focus
CL8
CL9 ???**, Improved Critical (Nodachi)
CL10
CL11 Quicken Blessing - Good
CL12 Greater Weapon Focus (Dwarven Boulder Helmet)

* Use a filler Feat at first, then retrain to Power Attack at lv2

** First take something like Toughness at lv9. Retrain your 6th Level Bonus Feat to something like Dodge. Retrain your 9th level Feat to Greater Bull Rush since you now actually have a BAB of +6. Retrain your 6th Level Bonus Feat to Bull Rush Critical now that you are 9th level and as a Bonus Feat you count as having a BAB of 9 for the purposes of meeting Feat prereqs.

---

Sacred Fist - Scimitar, One-Handed

Race: Any
Highest Stat: Strength
Secondary Stats: Constitution, Wisdom
Tertiary Stat: Dexterity
Dump Stats: Charisma, Int
Blessings: Good, Luck

Race (???)
CL1 ???*, Improved Unarmed Strike, Flurry of Blows, AC Bonus,
CL2
CL3 Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Blessed Fortitude
CL4
CL5 Crusader's Flurry
CL6 Snapping Turtle Shell
CL7 ???, Ki Pool
CL8
CL9 ???, Miraculous Fortitude
CL10
CL11 Improved Critical (Scimitar)
CL12 Snapping Turtle Clutch

* Retrain to Snapping Turtle Style at lv2

---

Warpriest - Dual Dwarven Maulaxes

Race: Dwarf
Highest Stat: Dexterity
Secondary Stats: Constitution, Wisdom
Tertiary Stat: Intelligence
Dump Stats: Strength, Charisma
Armor: Elven Mail
Blessings: Good, Luck

CL1 Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Dwarven Maulaxe)
CL2
CL3 Double Slice, Two-Weapon Fighting
CL4
CL5 Dual Enhancement
CL6 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
CL7 ???
CL8
CL9 ???, ???
CL10
CL11 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
CL12 Greater Weapon Focus (Dwarven Maulaxe)

---

Champion of the Faith - Katana, One-Handed

Race: Half-Elf (Ancestral Arms)
Highest Stat: Dexterity
Secondary Stats: Constitution, Charisma
Tertiary Stat: Strength
Dump Stats: Charisma, Intelligence
Blessings: Good, Luck

Race Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Katana
CL2 Sws1 ???*, Weapon Finesse
CL1 Wrp1 Weapon Focus, Chosen Alignment - Good
CL3 Wrp2 ???
CL4 Wrp3
CL5 Wrp4 ???
CL6 Wrp5 Weapon Specialization
CL7 Wrp6 ???, ???**, ???***
CL8 Wrp7
CL9 Wrp8 ???
CL10 Wrp9 Critical Focus
CL11 Wrp10 Quick Draw
CL12 Wrp11

* Retrain to Slashing Grace at lv2
** Retrain to Improved Critical at lv8
*** Retrain to Piercing Critical at lv11
>> Carry several Katanas with you; When you score a Critical Hit, leave them embedded in the enemy with Piercing Critical and Quick Draw a new one.

SwampTing wrote:

Flagged for offensive language. Thread title has the word 'homebrew'.

I'd really like to know the reasons why some people hate homebrew so much. Not to incite an argument, but I'm curious why.

Probably because homebrewed things often are a combination of:

1) very rarely playtested, so they're all over the place for both balance and ease-of-use

2) relatively unnecessary as existing features can probably already do what the homebrew feature attempts to do but better

3) extremely situational and/or fluff masquerading as mechanics & vice-versa

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A skilled & experienced player or DM CAN produce homebrew content that is balanced & just complex enough to fit the feature, is unique & fills a role better than any content existing (or which doesn't exist at all), is useful in many situations (rather than just "when this exact thing happens...) and is an appropriate mechanic that's actually a mechanic that doesn't force a certain style of RP, etc.

However, Sturgeon's Law being in effect at all times everywhere, for every 1 GOOD piece of homebrew content, there's another 9 pieces that are utter garbage.

So people look through 9 pieces of jank homebrew and by the time they reach the tenth, they're burnt out and assume that ALL homebrew is awful, so they don't read that one piece of gold in the large pile of turds.

---

The fact that this isn't just experienced people putting up content (who have a better feel for the overall balance of a game), but also complete noobs or "wish fulfillers" who want something absolutely bokers only makes the problem more pronounced.

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Sadly, there are published works, as well, where overzealous writers throw in high levels of fluff into the mechanics, or have an ill-conceived sense of where the power of a game should be, etc., and the content ends up being wasted time & money.

That's the reason I don't allow 3rd Party works in my games - hell, I barely allow non-SRD Pathfinder things like the Toolkits, etc., until I've read through them and vetted them.

Pathfinder's SRD works have proven balanced enough for my group, and we know there's more than enough content for us to build worlds with as-written, magic items excluded (there's always a bit of customization with that). If a player's core concept doesn't seem quite possible, or they'd like to be altered ever-so-slightly, we tend to follow the "there's a magic item for that!" model, and the "fix" item because the target of a new fetch-quest (which helps to establish a goal for the next few sessions as well).

I've fiddled with the idea of allowing Dreamscarred Press' works in, because they've proven to be extremely balanced & well-written, as well, but so far no-one's really expressed any specific interest in pursuing that, so we've always just stuck with the SRD books.

---

Anyway, that's my personal reason for being wary of "homebrew" stuff; not an out-and-out hatred, just having seen enough really awful homebrew things in my time that, unless something is a Magic Item, I'm probably going to be highly suspicious of it.

I'd imagine a number of other people follow basically the same outlook.

I'm glad to see the class was wittled down to 2 Specializations, but I'm still not convinced that what needed to be done was actually done to this class.

It still sounds like the Fighter but with Class Options instead of Feats and even less actual baseline mechanics than Weapon and Armor Training... which isn't good.

"Modular" is shorthand for "godforsakenly awful unless you know exactly what you're doing"... which is a less-nice way of saying "PhD in System Mastery required".

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The Magical Child archetype allowing for a "transformation sequence" seems to hint towards the baseline Vigilante taking a fair amount of time to transform, which was one of the biggest complaints against the class in the Playtest (you'll be in one form over the other 90% of the time just because transforming takes far too long).

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I'm really hoping I'm wrong here, 'cause I usually like to put more faith in PF stuff, but I have a sneaking suspicion that this class probably still has far too much roleplaying fluff shoved sideways into it while being called "mechanics" than actually having hard mechanics that a Class rightly should have - since it gives the class more direct identity and makes building simpler & more intuitive.

Unless they've been neutered to innocuousness or non-integral status to the Class (like making a Base actually optional, instead of required or virtually required), the "fluffchanics" will remain not only awkward & restrictive (as they were in the playtest), but ultimately downright harmful to players (hope you're not caught in a surprise fight while in the wrong form...).

I'll still end up getting the book; I'll just make sure to look through a physical copy before buying it in case the class takes up a good chunk of the book and is still mostly as bad as the playtest was - if that ends up being the case, it might get put way on the backburner if the rest of the book doesn't make up for the bad stuff.

"You are a horrible person!"
"You think me's people! I LOVE YOU!"

Don't get me wrong, when I build a character, even if it is just an NPC, I want it to be as mechanically well built as I know how. I also, though, want all my characters to have a genuinely interesting back story and realistic characterization. I know that there are people who want maximized character power, and who also love immersive story play. I've just never met any.

I would probably fit into the "likes story and optimization equally", except most self-described heavy RP-ers probably wouldn't count me as such, since I tend to make up my characters' backstory rather quickly and on-the-fly, and my characters tend to be more or less everymen.

I've said before that most peoples' idea of "backstory" is something convoluted, melodramatic, and overly complex, and they tend to play their characters as grimdark drama characters who speak in painfully contrived & ultra-formal ways.

I summed this up as "You're playing Anakin Skywalker. Learn to play Han Solo, and you & everyone else will have a better time."

Since apparently we can still post, here's a thought:

Don't make the specific Alternate Identity something you get at lv1. No other class starts you off at "master of X" status; "master of X" is something you have to WORK for.

Right now, you're building the pyramid upside-down - give the Vigilante a generalized Bluff/Disguise ability that increases its capability to disguise itself (pretty much the Everyman Ability at 1st Level) and then LATER let it get major bonuses when in 1 specific alternate persona.

Just like Rangers have Favored Terrains and Favored Enemies, it would make sense that the Vigilante would have a Favored Persona (think Batman having Matches Malone); if, at lv5, the Vigilante chooses a specific persona from a specific walk of life (i.e. Warrior, Expert, Noble, or Commoner), and gets a noticeable bonus to Bluff and Disguise Checks when in that Persona, & then at lv10, 15, and 20 they choose ANOTHER persona to get similar bonuses to, THEN the class would not only fulfill the "dual identities" thing you've been pressing, but also make mechanical sense AND would be a reason to take this class for more than just 1 level.

I am not shocked that he had his character do that, but rather the response to "Please, don't do that. It makes me uncomfortable."

See, I'm kinda the opposite - I've only met a few true morons who had the legendary lack of tact to say "hey, Imma have my character RAPE somebody!" I know they exist, but would like to believe that they're such a small percentage of the population as to be almost nonexistent.

However, I have seen more neckbeards throw a fit over people NOT being cool with them pulling an obvious dick move, resulting in the fine examples of Neckbeardus Basementdwellerus flipping out, flipping the TABLE, and shouting "IT'S JUST A GAME / IT'S WHAT MY CHARACTER WOULD DO, YOU FACISTS!!!" than I would care to admit.

Said Neckbeards, unsurprisingly, generally play X-Neutral or X-Evil characters in order to be able to play the sociopaths they wish they could be and be vindicated for it because "that's what Neutral/Evil characters do" (bearing in mind that this doesn't mean all players who like to play Neutral/Evil characters are neckbeards - lots of players like to play Neutral/Evil characters because they enjoy antiheroes or Byronic heroes like John Constantine, V, etc.)

So, really, it surprises me that he had the utter GALL to initiate a rape scene in a game, but it DOESN'T surprise me that he threw a tantrum once people called "WTF, DUDE!?"

There're a LOT of people who would agree that torture, rape, and similar things are actually much worse than murder. Which, yeah, I agree with and would have been in the same mindset of "SERIOUSLY, DUDE!?"

Here's the thing, though: the "charm someone into sleeping with them" thing is a common plot element in literature and mythology, used by a whole LOT of characters throughout various mythologies.

These characters are usually evil or at the least SERIOUSLY morally ambiguous; if they're treated as okay, it's usually because the story is from a time/society where things were that screwed up (half of the Heroes of Greek Mythology came from Zeus tricking women into sleeping with him).

So, TECHNICALLY he's not wrong that a Neutral Evil character would be within bounds to do that. However, Even Evil Has Standards, and as the party you're generally assumed to be SOMEWHAT heroic, even if you're still otherwise unrepentantly Evil.

You're not wrong to say you're uncomfortable with the whole mess, and any reasonable human being would be apologetic and find a way to play their character as "Neutral Evil" without making the other players feel uncomfortable.

Let the DM know that there are just some things that are NOT okay, and you guys feel that this is one of those things. "It's just a game" is NOT a justification for making players feel uncomfortable.

I like 90% of Pathfinder Unchained, but that 10% that in the middle of chapter one just irks me in a number of ways. I like the overall concept of the monk enough and can work with the new version and house-rules with our GMs to work in some archetypes to it so that I'll play one. I just really wish that Paizo had been listening to us all this time when they decided what they were going to do to 'fix' the monk. It wasn't that hard with the rogue, that class went nowhere but up, so I have to believe the same was possible here. Why not, I have no idea.

The Monk needed a secondary ability which upped the accuracy of Flurry.

Basically, at lv5, they get a +2 to all Attacks Rolls and +1 to all Damage Rolls when Flurrying. At lv10 and every 5th level thereafter, they gain an additional +1 to Attack and Damage Rolls

That'd basically negate the penalty to Flurry at lv5, and at lv10 (so you'd be going +11/+11/+6/+6), and dealing +2 damage as well.

That alone would have made the Monk a lot more of a beatstick than it currently is, and even more than the Unchained Monk.

Then it could have simply gained Monk Techniques, basically Rogue Talents and sometimes powered by Ki, at lv2, lv4, and every even level thereafter, Advanced Techniques at lv10, and they choose one of several Ultimate Techniques at lv20.

That would have given the Monk a lot more options like they wanted, and it would have left the basic Monk chassis unaltered (and thus would have left all the Monk Archetypes intact).

SAIYAN NOBLE

Standard Racial Traits

Ability Score Racial Traits: Saiyan Nobles are a stronger and tougher than normal Saiyans, but also proud to a fault. Saiyans gain +4 Str, +4 Con, and -4 Cha.
Type: Saiyans are humanoids with the saiyan subtype.
Size: Saiyans are Medium creatures and thus receive no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Speed: Saiyans have a base speed of 30 feet.
Languages: Saiyans begin play speaking Common.

Feat & Skill Racial Traits

Iron-Sided (Ex) Saiyan Nobles begin play with Toughness as a Bonus Feat

Prehensile Tail (Ex) A Saiyan has a long, flexible tail that she can use to carry objects. She cannot wield weapons with her tail, but the tail allows her to retrieve a small, stowed object carried on her person as a swift action.

Senses Racial Traits

Low-Light Vision (Ex) Saiyans have Low-Light Vision.
Scent (Ex) Saiyans have the Scent extraordinary ability

Other Racial Traits

Zenkai (Ex) Whenever a Saiyan Noble heals Hit Point Damage sustained in Combat, she gains 1 Experience Point for every Hit Point healed this way.

Change Shape (Ex)On nights when the full moon is visible, a Saiyan with a Tail observing the Moon becomes a Great Ape. When in this form, her size becomes Gargantuan, she gains a +6 Size Modifier to Strength and Constitution, a -6 modifier to her Dexterity, a +8 Bonus to her Natural Armor, -4 Modifier to AC, her type changes to Monstrous Humanoid (Great Ape), and she gains a Bite Attack.
While in Great Ape form, a Saiyan Noble may enter a Rage as a Free Action as the Barbarian Class Feature of the same name, treating her total HD as her Barbarian Level for determining the duration and Bonuses of this Rage, and her Great Ape modified constitution value as her base Constitution value for the purposes of determining the duration of this Rage.
She becomes Exhausted when she reverts back to her original Form for a number of Minutes equal to twice the number of Rounds she was transformed.
A Saiyan reverts to her normal form the following morning or if her Tail is severed.

Try something more like this, honestly:

SAIYAN

Standard Racial Traits

Ability Score Racial Traits: Saiyans are a strong, tough race, who, as a result, are stubborn, blunt, and often standoffish. Saiyans gain +2 Str, +2 Con, and -2 Cha.
Type: Saiyans are humanoids with the saiyan subtype.
Size: Saiyans are Medium creatures and thus receive no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Speed: Saiyans have a base speed of 30 feet.
Languages: Saiyans begin play speaking Common.

Feat & Skill Racial Traits

Iron-Sided (Ex) Saiyans begin play with Toughness as a Bonus Feat

Prehensile Tail (Ex) A Saiyan has a long, flexible tail that she can use to carry objects. She cannot wield weapons with her tail, but the tail allows her to retrieve a small, stowed object carried on her person as a swift action.

Senses Racial Traits

Low-Light Vision (Ex) Saiyans have Low-Light Vision.
Scent (Ex) Saiyans have the Scent extraordinary ability

Other Racial Traits

Zenkai (Ex) Whenever a Saiyan heals Hit Point Damage sustained in Combat, she gains 1 Experience Point for every 2 Hit Points healed this way.

Weaknesses

Change Shape (Ex)On nights when the full moon is visible, a Saiyan with a Tail observing the Moon must make a DC35 Will Save or become a Great Ape. When in this form, her size becomes Gargantuan, she gains a +6 Size Modifier to Strength and Constitution, a -6 modifier to her Dexterity, a +8 Bonus to her Natural Armor, -4 Modifier to AC, her type changes to Monstrous Humanoid (Great Ape), and she gains a Bite Attack.
When she Changes Shape, a Saiyan must make a DC30 Will Save or automatically enter an Uncontrolled Rage, as the Class Feature of the Wild Rager Barbarian Archetype (treating her Hit Dice as her Barbarian Level the bonus provided by this effect). She remains in this Rage for as long as her Shape is Changed. She becomes Exhausted when she reverts back to her original Form for a number of Minutes equal to twice the number of Rounds she was transformed.
A Saiyan reverts to her normal form the following morning or if her Tail is severed.

Sensitive Tail Saiyans with Tails have a considerable weakness to harm caused to it. While her Tail is tightly gripped, such as when a Grapple is made against it as a Called Shot (AC modifier equal to that of an Arm), she is Stunned for the entire time that the Tail is Grappled.

This link was added to the clipboard by drive itself, so it should work better for people.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1btIpFEZ4TWkzT3AU4Lp4lQXe-V558tij2C9EMTI smZc/edit?usp=sharing

Just, overall, what do people think of the race itself.

The Stats don't particularly add up.

Goku and Vegeta are both tough as nails, yes, but Nappa wasn't shown to be particularly dextrous.

At the same time, while Goku and Nappa are both dumb as boards, Raditz seemed of average-to-above-average intelligence, and Vegeta is both highly intelligent and surprisingly wise.

Saiyans, prior to Goku's and Vegeta's offspring, were naturally neither that incredibly tough nor that insanely strong - they have the POTENTIAL to be, but most Saiyans in the Dragon Ball universe only had a Power Level of a few hundred (i.e. more than enough to eradicate a planet's population by themselves, but not very impressive in the grand scheme of Frieza's forces.

What they ALL lack is a distinct level of tact; they're proud warriors, and are all apparently very stubborn and blunt (Gohan being the SOLE exception, which may just be a naturally-high Cha offsetting the racial quality).

Instead of the +4 to Con, perhaps just:

+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Cha, plus Toughness as a Racial Bonus Feat.

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Additionally, you're missing THE key ability of Saiyans, which isn't the ability to transform into a Great Ape - it's Zenkai, or the ability of a Saiyan to grow more powerful the closer they come to death.

Perhaps make it something like:

Zenkai (Ex) Whenever a Saiyan heals Hit Points lost by Damage from Combat, he gains 1xp for every 2 Hit Points regained.

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The Great Ape mode should be a racial drawback, akin to uncontrolled Lycanthropy. Normal and Half-Saiyans with Tails, like Goku and Gohan, should follow the same rules as a Lycanthrope when transformed.

The ability to control the Great Ape mode should be a Feat reserved for powerful Saiyans alone (or, like Drow Nobles, a Saiyan Noble like Vegeta has control over his Great Ape form naturally, and has a much-higher RP value as a result).

Half-Saiyans should NOT have Great Ape as a default ability - Toriyama himself has said that the Tail is a recessive genetic trait, which is why both Trunks and Goten don't have Tails, nor does Pan when she's born. Instead, that should be an Alternate Racial Trait for them.

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Saiyan Tails should not be attacks in the slightest; Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, nor Nappa used their Tails as a Tail Slap, and only Raditz was ever shown to do so.

Raditz could have gained a Tail Slap as a Race Feat.

Instead, it should be a straight-up Prehensile Tail like a Tiefling's.

Normal Saiyans should also gain a drawback in the form of being Stunned while their Tails are Grappled.

Saiyan Nobles (like Vegeta), should not have this drawback.

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Artificial Moon is NOT a Racial Trait.

It's a Feat, and one that should require a high Character Level and/or sufficiently-high Stats.

Im not sure there is a difference between Revised or Second Edition. A new Edition, Revised or Second does not need to follow the D&D modle, and really thats one of the few cases where an Edition is radically different than the ones before it. Heck, it might honestly be the only case, but its not the norm. Can we stop pretending that a new Edition would likely outdate older books and setting? I mean none of the FAQs, Errata, or new printings have except in a few cases like with the ACG. Its not really that realistic of a possibility, so can we stop assuming it is, please?

Except that World of Darkness also followed this suit, and the Old World of Darkness books generally don't mesh at all with the New World of Darkness books.

Warhammer 40k, for not being an RPG, has also fallen into these problems - while the minis themselves are still usable, some armies (Da Orkz) have done for several rules iterations without updates, and other armies have had such radical redesigns for their units' functions that older books and codexes are no longer valid.

Champions going from 5th to 6th Edition caused a lot of builds to become really mangled when converting from the old edition to the new.

Shadowrun moving from their 3rd to their 4th Edition caused a lot of snarls, considering how radically the entire base system was redesigned.

D&D is the most-prominent game to have this "Edition Wars" problem, but it's hardly the only - it's actually fairly common in tabletop games, and it's a legitimate concern for a lot of fans.

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You are right in that there ARE ways for there to be a Pathfinder Revised CRB that radically change some basic aspects of the game without affecting the text or applicability of subsequent books, but doing so will take quite a bit of ducking and weaving by the devs regardless.

He had 20 dex I believe so static was 5 (dex)+4 (deadly aim) +1 (PBS)+1 (enhancement)= d8+11 up to 6 times.

Sure he was eating several penalties to attack, but vs touch AC that wasn't much of a problem. We also had some standard team support such as Bless and Prayer to help his attack bonus. If we had a Bard I think he could have broken 120 per round easily.

Average damage for 6 1d8+11 Attacks is 93, assuming ALL of his attacks hit, which means he was rolling a bit higher than the average for damage alone.

And yet, he was rolling his Attacks at:

(+5(Dex) +1(PBS) +1(Enh) -2(RS) -4(Double-fire) -2(DA) = -1) per attack, so his Full Attack would look like +5/+5/+5/+5/+0/+0... That's... pretty pathetic, even against the Touch AC of enemies.

Also considering he would have had around a 25% chance of Misfire occurring every time he made such an attack, the whole thing seems like this outcomes were MUCH more luck-based than anything else - if he "magically" kept rolling 15s and higher, then, sure, he could have hit over 100 per full-round splooging, but statistically I'd be surprised if he'd have topped 30, honestly.

Or cubone...

A pokemon that wears the skull of its dead mother and can be heard crying in utter sadness at the loss of his mother is not something a kid makes up.

BATMAN WOULD TOTALLY DO THIS

As far as Martials with magic stuff, don't forget Arthur who had three different magic swords, a magic, spear, plus a magic dagger that made him invisible.

THREE?

More like 6, when you total all the myths and legends together.

Goswhit (Helmet)
Rohngomiant (Spear)
Crewennan (Dagger)
Wigar (Armor)
Wynebgwrthucher (Shield)
Llen Arthyr yng Nghernyw (Mantle)
Clarent, the Sword in the Stone
Excalibur, the Sword of the Lake
The Scabbard of Excalibur
Brownsteel (Sword)
Marmiadoise (Sword)
Chastiefol (Sword)
Morddure (Sword)
Prydwen (Ship)

Neutered if you can't find a spot that works for summoning any spirit, maybe.

That's up to DM discretion, since the Spirits list FAVORED locations, not "The Only Locations This Can Be Found In Ever," and the rules even say as much - "Favored Location" does NOT mean "ONLY Location".

That means the DM dicking players out of access to Spirits because "It's not their Favored Location" is basically akin to the DM also dicking Cleric players out of necessary spells because "Your God's decided to put you through a test and won't grant you the spells you're asking for" because that's exactly what the text says - Clerics PRAY for their spells (doesn't mean they get exactly what they asked for, and Gods are pricks after all...)

However, Mark seems to love inserting roleplaying-only and/or fluff aspects into mechanical areas, and it ends up becoming a horrendous mess because people take the RP-ish stuff as RAW mechanics, as "Favored Locations" demonstrates...

This is a prime example of why writers should keep roleplaying/fluff ideas in their pants and keep mechanical talk and fluff talk as far away from one another as possible.

That's among the strangest ideas ever held by any game design team if it's true. When class A gets U amount of usefulness for having experience X, and class B gets 2U amount of usefulness for experience X, then you've thoroughly messed up the function of experience points and/or levels.

The idea, which is largely the case in practice, is that while Casters get cool toys built-in, Martials get cool toys literally.

Casters, especially full-casters, derive almost all their utility from their spells, plus a few class options.

Martials, on the other hand, have the most magical gear designed for THEM, and thus get the most out of the loot when the fights are done.

Magical Weapons, Armors, and Shields are designed with Martials in mind, and indeed they tend to make the best use of them. Many/most pieces of worn Wondrous Items are also best utilized by Martials.

Some people would like Martials to be as badass while naked as a Caster, but that idea makes little to no sense in terms of the mythologies on which the game is based, and is a wholly-modern concept that's only existed for about 100 years.

"Martial" characters in legend and myth invariably have magical tools, very often several, at their displosal; even characters with what amount to "superpowers" in this day and age would be dressed with several magical arms:

Heracles had the Pelt of the Nemean Lion, his club, bow, and arrows.

Rama had between 50 and 70 distinct weapons at his disposal (the Astras primarily, mostly in the form of magical arrows).

Achilles, Aeneas, and Diomedes all had magical armor and several magical weapons.

Cuchulain and the other Ulstermen all had magical shields and weapons.

Beowulf had a magical armored shirt and 2 magical swords.

Sigurd/Sigfried had the tarnhelm, the andvarinaut, and Gram.

The three servants of Tripitaka - Zhu Bajie, Sha Wujing, and Sun Wukong - all had magical weapons, and Wukong especially had the Phoenix-feather helm, the golden chainmail, the Ruyi-jingu-bang, the cloud-stepping shoes, and ji-xuan-yun at his disposal. To say nothing of Tripitaka himself who had a magical monk's vestment and staff.

Just about every single one of the Knights of the Round Table had a magical object of some kind at their ready, with several of the chief knights like Gawain, Galahad, and Lancelot, having quite a number, and Arthur taking the cake at well over a dozen ALONE.

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So, really, the idea that Martials shouldn't need magical gear is pretty laughable, and a mindset entirely unique to the 20th Century; magicians didn't need gear, at least not of the armor and weapon variety, but warriors did.

The result, then, is that D&D intends for Martials to get the bulk of the physical loot, while Full-casters get next-to-none but for things like scrolls, etc., and rely almost solely on their magical prowess.

6/9 casters, who basically didn't exist in 1st & 2nd Ed. (where there were 5th and 7th level casters filling similar roles), and even 3rd/3.5, are now the bulk of the spellcasting classes, since they're more in-line with Martials, and trade a fair chunk of upper-level spellcasting for being more versatile and able to use magical gear just about as well as Martials (though they tend to not have the wide range of armor choices, and their BAB is lower).

The Cleric, Druid, Oracle, and Shaman are really the big "whoppsie..." classes, having a 3/4 BAB AND 9th-level spellcasting; but that's an unfortunate leaveover from 3.5 in which Paizo couldn't have returned them to 6th/7th-level Caster status without causing every Cleric from 3.5 to be unusable in PF...

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Would the game benefit from a built-in mechanic which limits/determines how much loot you get and of how much quality?

Absolutely, to a degree; FantasyCraft uses a system pretty much exactly like that, and Pathfinder Society even adheres to a system not entirely unlike that.

However, such systems carry with them their own baggage - that being that you may very likely not be "allowed" to keep the crazy-awesome artifact you just got from your dungeon dive because your stat isn't high enough for that, or other some-such reasons.

4E also tried a system like that, and while it was balanced, it killed a lot of the "special coolness" of finding an awesome magic item in a monster's horde that you weren't expecting, because your Gear is built into your character, basically.

So while you mechanically can "balance" things out with such a system, it ends up killing a lot of the natural flow and mystique of the game at the same time.

I don't know.

At 6 you get +1 AC.
At 7 you can render any one opponent flatfooted, no save, no to hit, no nothing. Yeah, it doesn't help you, but it can let your friends really go to town with power attack and sneak attack and manuevering for one round. Or for a touch attack, you can auto disarm or auto trip.
At 8 you get a free feat, that is pretty nice.
At 9 you get gun training 2, which is great if you use more than one type of firearm and aren't a pistolero or musket master (oh wait, no one is...)

Swinging out at lvl 6 is quite viable, but honestly, so is staying in. It won't make you quite as good a DPR monster, but it will make you more useful to your friends.

The problem is, ALL you get is a meager +1 to AC; take a level in Urban Barbarian and you can Rage to get a major boost to Dex; take a level in Alchemist can you can get Mutagen to pump Dex AND get Bombs; take a level in Luring Cavalier and you can get Ranged Challenge, a Mount, and Tactician; take a level in Guide Ranger, and you can get Ranger's Focus; take a level in Paladin and you gain Smite...

Staying in from lv6 onward nets you as much versatility and cool abilities as a Fighter, which is to say "not much".

As I said, the big problem is that the Gunslinger stops getting NEW abilities after lv6; from there on, everything is a Scaling ability or more Deeds which aren't as cool as the Deeds you gained from lv1 and lv3.

Torbyne wrote:

CalebTGordan wrote:

I don't understand these gunslinger above 6th level comments. What am I missing?

Many player seem to feel that the class doesn't offer anything worth spending the levels on past six now. Apparently further changes to signature deed and reload speeds cause this trend of comment.

Is it still possible to reload a pistol as a free action with the class/feat/alchemical bonuses? As long as that's possible, I don't really see the 'omg it ends at 5 now' complaints.

The problem is that the Gunslinger falls into the same problem as a Fighter: it's really awesome upfront but quickly loses a lot of its "wow" factor because almost all of its abilities are scaling effects or Feat choices (going in the order of "Deeds > Bonus Feat > Gun Training X > Nimble +X" from level 3 onward).

The 1st and 3rd level deeds are by FAR the most-useful; Gun Training is a nice boost but overall too weak to rely on as a main feature; Nimble is pretty much the same as Gun Training

The reason people are going "not worth playing past lv5/lv6" is that, prior to this, you could at least look forward to making your favorite Deed into a free one if you got to lv10. Now, however, every really-awesome Deed WORTH reducing with Signature Deed has been given the "cost cannot be reduced" tag.

As a result, you can build a SIGNIFICANTLY more effective and interesting character by only using 1-6 levels of Gunslinger as the base and then multiclassing from there than you can taking the Gunslinger to lv12/20. Many firearm-based builds ALREADY take Gunslinger as only a single-level dip BECAUSE everything that you need to be an effective firearms character is gained at lv1 already.

Roleplaying and build optimization are not mutually exclusive - this is the basis of the Stormwind Fallacy, and it's completely true.

People who think that you can't be optimized AND be a good roleplayer generally are terrible "roleplayers" themselves and fall into stereotypical concepts, contrived backstories, overused tropes, and have a general air of pretentiousness that makes you wonder exactly how many trilbies they own...

I lost a taste for "serious" roleplaying years ago because the vast majority of players are actually pretty horrendous at coming up with interesting characters and tend to fall into melodramatic tropes so hard that they break the fremdschaemen meter.

Meledrama =/= automatically-good storytelling/characterization.

Darth Vader shows no melodramatic tendencies on-screen, instead being somewhere between an unrepentantly-evil anti-villain or Byronic hero; he's the bar-none most-interesting character in Star Wars as a result.

Anakin Skywalker is nothing BUT melodrama, and was an absolute waste of a character and decades of anticipation.

Han Solo is not melodramatic in the slightest, and Han is by FAR the most enjoyable character since he therefore holds the dual titles of "Mr. Awesome McBadass" and "The King of Snark".

Most roleplayers think they're Darth Vader and instead are Anakin Skywalker, which makes me want to vomit.

I prefer to play Han and treat a game as a game, rarely being serious in the slightest while tearing apart monsters and enemies easily.

Step 1) Come up with a mechanical concept - what the character can do, not who they are (that's fluff and has no business in designing a character)

Step 2) Fine-tune that concept to its most-efficient form, cutting out extraneous things (it doesn't have to be the "best" version of a class, but it should be highly effective in at least 1 useful area).

Step 3) Come up with a personality that would make sense/be interesting for the mechanics chosen.

Well I've combed through the previous 6 pages of this thread, and didn't notice anything mentioned for pages 9-12 of UC. I'm still lost as to why Gunslinger 6+ is a thing of the past.

Can someone spell this out for the less educated, like myself?

Gunslinger, like the Fighter, runs out of juice but HARD after lv6; you get the most Feats and cool abilities from levels 1-6, and thereafter it's a little barren.

The sole exception was if you were aiming for Signature Deed at lv10.

Signature Deed, which requires Gunslinger 10, was a way to reduce a lot of really awesome Deeds from 1 Grit to 0, meaning you could always get the effects without having to pay for them.

Now, several/most of those Deeds say "cannot have its cost reduced" in their entry, which means Signature Deed is a far, far less-useful Feat, and thus there's next-to-no incentive to go past lv6 anymore.

They did the same to Opportune Parry & Riposte, which prior to the ACG errata could be targeted by Signature Deed to reduce its cost to 0 Grit, meaning you could Parry with your weapon as many times as you had Attacks of Opportunity available (meaning Combat Reflexes was SICK with it) without burning even ONE Grit point.

The natural weapon Sacred Fist is screwed. A natural weapon base warpriest can work out well, although you need Martial Versatility to apply Weapon Focus to all of your natural attacks.

The real power was with how Feral Combat Training completely bypassed the limitations of Sacred Weapon.

You could apply the effects of the Enhancement quality of Sacred Weapon to all Natural Weapons by targeting your Unarmed Strike.

The same goes for bypassing the "each weapon costs rounds separately" junk, because, again, FCT made targeting your Unarmed Strike apply to every Natural Weapon you had.

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Now that I've had time to have my b*@@~fit and cool down, I know how to get the build off the ground again, to a degree.

Champion of the Faith's Smite ability with 2 uses of Martial Versatility apply Weapon Focus & Greater Weapon Focus to all your Natural Weapons, add your Charisma to attacks made with them, and your Warpriest level as damage.

IF your game is going up to lv16 or greater, you can take Martial Mastery in place of the second Martial Versatility to have ALL feats - Weapon Specialization and GWS among others - affect your Natural Weapons.

However, FCT also was a workaround for Brawling armor, which no longer happens.

Uh I guess the natural weapon build is screwed with the feral combat training errata.

"Screwed" is too light a term.

"Gangbanged with rusty, spiked strap-ons, strangled, beaten, drawn & quartered, burned the remains, threw the ashes in a fire, dropped a deuce in the acid, poured out into a 90-mile deep grave, and then pissed on the tombstone"

is more accurate.

My solution to this is rather simple:

Print out the errata file for the edition of book you have (in my case its mostly: first to current).
Go over the book marking any sections with a pencil so that it says 'errata' next to the paragraph that has changed. There's usually space for that word next to the paragraph.
Put the printout in the book.

Should I need to consult the book, it's easy to find the ruling, and if it has changed, there is a 'errata' remark next to it, so I can look in the errata-printout. Doesn't come up all that often.

As a player I have a word-doc that has all the rules-texts of my character for it's current level. All of it. From class-features, to feats to spells to equipment.
If a FAQ or errata is posted, it's there as well.
Has a bestiary style character-sheet on the first page, an index, and is rather long (16pages for a 3rd level psychic detective as of today).

It's updated pretty much after every session, printed out every level.

While I can understand that, the person in question you're quoting is the owner of Redcap's Corner, a fairly well-known gaming store in PHILADELPHIA.

A smaller gaming store, like, say, in Trenton (40 minutes north of Philly) can maybe suggest something like that.

But a store in the 5th-largest city in the US, especially a well-trafficked store like Redcap's, has some serious concerns when the books they're selling are not accurate.

A LOT of gamers go to Redcap's, myself included, and they have a pretty densely-packed corner of the store devoted almost entirely to Pathfinder (there're other RPGs to be found there, sure, including D&D, but Pathfinder takes up the biggest real estate by far).

So if players start to feel that they can't trust older printings of a book to be accurate, or that they feel they should just wait until the newest printing comes in, then sales slow to a halt, and that creates a problem for everyone, both players and owners.

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Magic the Gathering producing errata for their cards is bad enough - but in MTG's case, said Errata is almost always clarifying errata or updating it to the most-modern wording, and rarely involves actually wholesale changing the text or the card's mechanical functionality.

Things like radically changing the text of printed books can cause serious issues between players and the DM, causing the DM to have to rule which book takes precedent - this is ESPECIALLY true when the text in question radically alters something intrinsic to a character's whole functionality.

A few of the Errata in recent weeks has gone beyond making some builds less optimal than others, and instead made several builds literally unplayable under the new Errata.

Some of this may have been done for PFS purposes, but many people DO take the Pathfinder books as gospel - even if the average casual group takes RAI over RAW, they still use the written-word of the books as the baseline for interpretation.

So when Errata comes out, it has ramifications farther reaching than just PFS and can completely destroy characters in casual games as well (and leave many, many players quite salty as a result).

Wait, what?

Are you saying that Spontaneous Casting is the same as Vancian Casting?

Yes.

Spontaneous casting is, in fact, Vancian spellcasting. Everyone from back when 3rd Edition first came out until today (except you, apparently) agrees that Spontaneous Spellcasting is a form of the decades-old Vancian magic system.

That fact that you have X number of Spells per day per Spell Level makes the system "Vancian".

When people complain about "Vancian" magic, they are including Spontaneous Spellcasters in that system, because it is still the same system as has always been in place, preparation needed or not.

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Mana/Spell Points are considered a radically different system because it is much more Freeform; since you "pay" for spells by either allocating their costs when you Prepare them or spending the energy when you cast them, you are not tied to hard numbers of spells-per-level-per-day.

Psionics basically use this exact system.

While it is more useful, and intuitive, as a substitute for Sponteneous Spellcasting, it also works fine for Prepared casters.

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The 4E Powers system, and the Tome of Battle's Stances & Maneuvers system which is their progenitor, are another form of "casting."

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Words of Power are a fourth spellcasting system, which is extremely freeform in not just how spells are cast, but in how they're CREATED as it were.

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I'm not familiar with Spheres of Power much, but I imagine they would be a 5th form of spellcasting.

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1st and 2nd Edition Psionics, which were the predecessors to today's Spell-Like Abilities, could be taken as a 6th type, whereby each ability is only usable a number of times per day, but each ability is usable a different number of times, completely separate from it's "level"

I'm just confused as to why Feral Combat Training was taken out back and shot like Old Yeller with a Tommy-Gun.

Prior to this, a Monk could up the damage of 1 Natural Attack to the same as their Unarmed damage, but they were limited to a fixed number of Attacks each round when using Flurry (meaning Feral Combat Training wasn't extremely useful for Natural Attacks for the Monk).

A Brawler was in the same ballpark as the Monk, as was the Sacred Fist.

On the other hand, a Fighter could make use of Feral Combat Training by mixing it with Martial Versatiltiy to add on lots of Natural Weapon attacks to its Full Attack Action and give all of them some much-needed bonuses to hit, but then it didn't have Scaling damage, so all the attacks were generally left weaker than Manufactured Weapons.

Realistically, the Warpriest was the only class that really had a field day with Feral Combat Training because it could mix scaling damage with Martial Versatility and attacking with lots and lots of pumped-up attacks; even then, this wasn't horrendously overpowered, considering the amount of effort, items, and feats needed to make this a viable build.

Now, however, that whole idea is just dead and gone, and a river's been diverted over the grave.

What exactly was the point of destroying Feral Combat Training?

It was a neat feat, to be sure, but was not very abusable, and took quite a bit of effort and counting as a Fighter to get really good.

Now it's just basically a total wash of a Feat.

A Natural Weapons Warpriest can get pretty ludicrous numbers due to upping the damage to 1d10 or 2d6 per Attack.

Depending on the build, it can be:

1) Dex-focused Urban Barbarian to gain Lesser Draconic Blood, Animal Fury, and Lesser Fiend Totem to gain 2 Claws, 1 Bite, 1 Gore, on top of TWF Unarmed damage.

2) Dex-based Warpriest with a natural Bite attack (either by being a Toothy Half-Orc, or by taking Adopted (Orc - Tusked) as a Trait) using Martial Flexibility targeting Feral Combat Training to up all your Natural Attacks to your full Sacred Weapon damage, and then using Items to gain Claws, a Gore, a Tentacle, etc., in addition to Unarmed damage.

Both are surprisingly accurate and deal a pretty hilarious amount of damage when all is said and done.

Officially a Warpriest isn't a "Martial," but realistically, it doesn't actually cast a whole lot of spells on OTHER people - most of its spell preparation goes to fueling its fervor-casting abilities.

Vancian casting needs to be done with. The horse is dead and the hole is dug, the preacher is standing by. Having one defining caster mechanic will free some room to design the basics and work within a structure to make each class shine on their own and not be the "Spontaneous" version of the old class still hanging around. The Wizard need to memorize "Known" spells, like the arcanist.

You are adorable. Simply adorable.

People have been trying to "do away with" Vancian Magic since 1974. 41 years later, it's still around, even in 5th Edition.

The reason is that many, many people have tried alternate systems before, and they end up being more trouble than they're worth. They add to many "moving parts," people shout "ZOMG! BOOKKEEPING" and everyone defaults back to Vancian Magic.

The reason being is that Vancian Magic is just easy. It's clean, it's elegant, it works.

Do I personally PREFER Vancian magic? No. I actually prefer Mana/Magic Points. But, in practice, mana/magic takes a fair bit more bookkeeping than Vancian Magic, and only really works well with spontaneous casters.

Other systems have been put in place, but they all have their own issues of complexity or lack of versatility, etc.

Words of Power were an attempt to break the mold, and ended up being more complex than people could handle without serious sub-system mastery.

The Kineticist as a class faces the same issues as Words of Power, but is a bit simpler and at least is a class specifically based around its own built-in subsystem so it provides default support.

4E tried it's own system of... things. And it was generally considered a flop, especially because there was no mechanical difference between "spellcasting" and other "powers"

So, for the forseeable future, expect Vancian magic to be the standard for TRPGs.

The worst thing about this issue, is that paizo might "answer it" by just gating the abilities behind further levels to ward against dipping.

See, though, at least that'd be something.

Making it a progressive "you start by having a small scaling Disguise/Bluff bonus, but at THIS level you gain a bonus against Scry effects, at THIS level you can shift your alignment, at THIS level you can..." thing would actually be a much, MUCH better design than the current steaming pile they've got.

Right now it's just...

Well, frankly, the whole class just seems like someone up at the top had an awful idea for a Four-In-One class and threatened to fire anyone who pointed out to them how absolutely god-awful an idea this was, while simultaneously not giving enough of a s~%$ to actually TRY and make this class playable by itself in the most insignificant of ways.

Medium seems pretty straightforward.

Chakras are straightforward. Utter, unadulterated S$~@ that I'd hope would get the author at least YELLED at for how piss-poorly written a system it is, but straightforward nonetheless.

The Mesmerist and Spiritualist are both pretty simple builds. Well, the Spiritualist is only "simple" because the Summoner has been out for years now and people understand how THAT works (kinda).

The Kineticist is very convoluted at first glance, the Occultist likewise, and I'm not sure what to make of the Psychic.

Auras aren't too dissimilar from what's come before it - just a little more elaboration on an already-established mechanic.

Rituals are actually pretty simple; they require a pretty substantial amount of "DM sits down for the weekend and pounds these out" effort, but aren't too bad, in all honesty. I actually really like them as a way to surgically remove broken spells from my games without COMPLETELY banning the effects.

Psychic Duels are... yeah, okay, they're convoluted, but Duels of any kind always were in PF.

And Possession may be a tiny bit complicated, but it's nice to have honest-to-god in-depth rules on Possession after trying to wing the effects for several years now.

---

So, the book is a bit on the complicated side, but I honestly don't think that's bad - this is an "Adventures" book, after all, which means the rules for the genre are gonna be pretty in-depth and potentially more complicated than basic "vanilla" Pathfinder rules.

Just a quick question to all the people using the, "If I can't keep using my PF books, then I'm not interested in a Revamp/2nd Edition/Whatever."

If that's true, why are you playing PF right now instead of 3.5?

Because Pathfinder is still putting out new material?

Nothing says that you can't use 3.5 material with Pathfinder, anyway - in fact a large swath of the fanbase does, in fact, use 3.5 material with PF specifically BECAUSE PF was meant to be backwards-compatible.

The only thing that people have done, in large parts, is to throw away the PHB, DMG, and MMI-V in place of the Core Rulebook and Bestiaries of Pathfinder.

People have, as a whole, slowly dropped more and more 3.5 material, however, because Pathfinder is a much-more balanced version of 3rd Edition than 3.5, and the overall quality of Pathfinder material is by-and-large superior to 3.5 things.

3.5 non-Core material was suspect at best - the vast, VAST majority of "Supplement" things were just painfully awful compared to the PHB, while a smaller portion of options were just hilariously broken and broke the game completely. Only a small handful of non-Core options were actually balanced in 3.5, and over time those options have generally received a "Pathfinder Makeover" treatment.

Most of the most-popular non-Core classes have been ported over in either mechanically or thematically almost in their entirety to PF either through new classes or Archetypes of classes.

Similar strategies and Feats have been brought aboard PF, as well.

So while you still CAN play a 3.5 Warlock, there's little reason to when you can just play a Kineticist; You liked the Duskblade, right - well then you're gonna LOVE the Magus; Hexblade was your baby, so Hexcrafter Magus is your new baby; Binder was your cup of tea, then the Medium is right up your alley; Marshal was your thing, but now Cavalier is; you loved the Scout, but now you're gonna go gaga over the Skirmisher Ranger, the Guide Ranger, or maybe COMBINE the two to make a Super-Scout; etc., etc.

However, there's STILL material from 3.5 that people like and prefer that hasn't been covered by Pathfinder yet - Skill Tricks are still pretty much a no-show, there are lots of special materials and even Races that don't have a PF equivalent, the entire Magic Item Compendium is just as good (maybe better) than Ultimate Equipment, so who would WANT to give up all that good stuff...

---

In short, Paizo's let players decide whether to stop using 3.5 material or not - they've INSENTIVISED players to switch entirely to Pathfinder by making superior versions of their old favorites, however, and DMs in kind more and more say "Pathfinder Only" because the material has proven vastly more-balanced and manageable than 3.5

But all of this is a natural transition on the consumers' part entirely, because people have found Pathfinder's material to be better than 3.5's, even IF the 3.5 material is still entirely applicable to Pathfinder. Insentivising is not, after all, forcing - the consumers ultimately decide whether to drop 3.5 altogether or not.

However, if a 2nd Edition came out with a radical redesign of the system, creating gigantic snarls with existing material & rules as a result, that wouldn't be natural; that'd be an artificial transition that wouldn't regard whether the consumer felt that the new material was superior or not - that's something people lost their taste for way back in 2008, and I can't imagine they'd want to revisit that scenario ever again.

---

So, basically, THAT'S why people play PF over 3.5, if they use PF solely at all.

I think it's interesting how very progressive this company and much of its fanbase can be, while at the same time being so conservative when it comes to game rules.

I suppose it just goes to show how compartmentalized we humans can be.

Well, part of it comes from years of getting burned by massive rules overhauls.

When 1st Ed switched to 2nd Ed, there were some rules snarls that meant some things from 1st Ed no longer worked in 2nd Ed, but by-and-large the changes were fairly minimal enough that the bulk of 1st Ed materials worked with 2nd Ed as well without too much time needing to be spent converting 1st to 2nd Ed stuff.

3rd Edition was a fairly radical change from 2nd Edition, and while you could convert things from 2nd Ed to 3rd, it took a LOT of effort and serious number-crunching (1st and 2nd Ed weren't too horribly dissimilar from one another, and I've converted 1st Ed material to 3rd Ed... let's just say that figuring out the proper DCs for how Saves work now compared to how they worked back THEN is like jumping through flaming hoops).

The Result is that the majority of things from 1st & 2nd Ed didn't work with 3rd Edition, with the exception of Magic Items (the as-written rules for Magic Items still worked fine - a +3 Sword was in 1st & 2nd Ed was still a +3 Sword in 3rd). This meant that all those books that people had spent money on over the years no longer had ANY real support with the new system.

The Edition Wars from 2nd to 3rd Ed were pretty bad, but a large majority of people jumped onto the 3rd Ed bandwagon, even longstanding 2nd Ed veterans, because they had gotten burned out with the dismal quality of TSR's books and the problems that had plagued the game since the advent of AD&D in '77.

However, 3.5 was an even greater Money-Sink investment than 2nd Ed, since every single book published during the 3.5 era was a hardbound book, meaning people could easily have 50+ hardbound D&D books over the course of just 5 years

People got REALLY salty when 3.5 flipped over into 4E and there weren't even any conversions possible. In 3rd Ed, as I said, you could at least trace a line back to 1st Ed and make updates because the game systems were just similar enough to see where X became Y in the edition transition; 4E, however, was so radically different that NOTHING from 3.5 worked in the slightest degree.

On top of this, the marketing and development department of WOTC's D&D division at the time proceeded to do the classic "new guy in charge" thing and mudsling the old stuff to make the new edition and new guys seem godlike in comparison; they did so by having a smear campaign of ads that basically said "3rd Ed sucked and you were a tool for liking it - stop being a tool and LOVE 4E."

And now 4E-lovers are feeling the same sting with 5th Edition, since 5th Ed has much more in common with 3rd Edition than it does with 4E, leaving those mountains and mountains of hardbound 4E books basically orphaned.

Just to illustrate the point... In 2nd Ed, you had to buy the Complete Psionics Handbook to play a Psion class; in 3rd/3.5 you had to buy a book of the same name, then the Expanded Psionics Handbook and Complete Psion even later just to play vaguely the same things from 2nd Ed; THEN, in 4E, you had to buy the Players Handbook II or III (I can't remember), JUST to play a Psion for 4th Edition. So, 3 Editions and 4-5 books, just to play the same character in each version of the rules.

---

Basically, over the course of no less than 3 Edition changes, people became jaded to the notion that "New Edition = New System" and have become, with reason, disgusted at the idea that once again the money they spent on books will have been wasted because the game is no longer produced.

And while there is something to be said about "well, you don't HAVE to buy the new material," the reason people don't want their old things "obsoleted" stands as this: Say I bought the CRB and APG, and that's it; years later, I decide I want the Occult Adventures, too... however, OA now works on Pathfinder 9th Edition, and the game is so radically different and dissimilar to the 1st Edition that they're basically different games entirely, meaning that, in order to even use OA, I also have to get the new CRB 9th Edition, and the APG may not be valid at all anymore.

People want to be sure that they can step away from the game now and be able to return to it without much issue at all years later.

Pathfinder allowed for that - people who had stopped playing after the first 4 "Complete" books of 3.5 could pick up the APG and begin playing without much of a problem at all; yes, there were some minor rules hiccups, but for the most part their old books were STILL almost entirely usable today.

So when the idea of a "2nd Edition" pops up, a large amount of the fanbase starts getting PTSD flashbacks to the 2nd-3rd, 3.5/4E changeover nightmares and worry that they're going to relive it all over again, having to shell out lots of money just to buy the same basic material they had before all over again JUST to keep up-to-date with the basic game rules.

What use would you even have for a new campaign setting? Golarion is like a dozen different campaign settings all in one, just use the region that works for your game.

Within the Golarion System, there are at least two other worlds home to complex sentient life - basically the Pathfinder versions of Barsoom (Mars in the works of E.R. Burroughs) and Venus (in the works of R.M. Farley).

Both of these worlds can be expanded upon and given Campaign Settings unto themselves.

They can also be the reason for a "Timespace Adventures" book or any other "Adventures" book which basically reintroduces the idea of Spelljammer-style planet/universe hopping multiverse nonsense to the game.

Dipping Core Rogue is like dipping an NPC class.

First of all, there are a number of Archetypes which grant you Trapfinding already, so if that's your aim, you can take those.

Secondly, you either go 1 or 3 levels into Rogue - 1 to gain Weapon Finesse or 3 levels to get Finesse Training for Dex to Damage.

Dipping 2 levels into Rogue only nets you a Rogue Talent, which generally isn't groundbreaking (you could take Minor Magic and then later Major Magic through Extra Rogue Talent, but... eh.)

---

Here's the thing - you're a Barbarian dipping into Oracle already, which means you're NEVER getting Improved Rage if you dip into a third Class.

Retraining yourself as an Invulnerable Rager Urban Barbarian X / Scout Unchained Rogue 3 / Oracle 1, however... THAT is a scary combo, and well worth the loss of Improved Rage.

Dipping 3 levels into Rogue isn't bad - it's basically a loss of 1 BAB since you're not going until level 5.

And as recompense, you get Sneak Attack +2d6, an hilarious number of Skill Points for 3 levels, a Rogue Talent, and the ability to go Dex to Attack & Damage AND deal 1.5x Dex on two-handed weapons (Yay, Elven Curveblade!), the ability to Sneak Attack on a Charge, PLUS the ability to pump your Dex via Rage.

---

Half-Elf Barbarian-Rogue-Oracle of Utter Nonsense.
Invulnerable Rager Urban Barbarian 8 / Scout Rogue 3 / Oracle (Battle) 1 | Ancestral Arms Half-Elf

Race Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Elven Curve Blade
CL1 Brb1 Weapon Finesse <Retrain to Power Attack at lv3>
CL2 Ora1 Weapon Focus (Elven Curve Blade)
CL3 Rog1 Weapon Finesse, Improved Sunder
CL4 Rog2 ???
CL5 Rog3 Finesse Training - Elven Curve Blade, ???
CL6 Brb2 Superstition
CL7 Brb3 Extra Rage Power - Witch Hunter
CL8 Brb4 ???
CL9 Brb5 ???
CL10 Brb6 Spell Sunder
CL11 Brb7 ???
CL12 Brb8 ???

SAVES AT LV12: Fort +7 / Ref +6 / Will +4

So the end result is that you'll have BAB of +10, 4 Feat slots open, and 2 Rage Power slots open, and 1 Rogue Talent slot open.

You'll be swinging with Dex to Attack & Damage, and you'll be pumping your Dex with your Rage. You'll also be gaining bonuses against spellcasters, and you'll be breaking spells by Sundering them.

And, of course, charging in like any good Barbarian and getting a Sneak Attack off in the process for an extra 2d6 damage.

chbgraphicarts, do you have links to any of your exotic WP builds? I'm intrigued to see what you have done with natural weapons in particular.

Natural Weapon Warpriest of Korada

Warpriest 10 / Urban Barbarian 2
Stats STR 10 / DEX 26 / CON 16 / INT 12 / WIS 18 / CHA 7
Traits Fate's Favored, ???
Blessings Community, Protection
Deity's Favored Weapon Unarmed Strike

Race Human Two-Weapon Fighting
CL1 Wrp1 Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Unarmed), Improved Unarmed Strike
CL2 Brb1 Rage (Dex)
CL3 Brb2 Double Slice, Lesser Draconic Blood
CL4 Wrp2
CL5 Wrp3 Weapon Focus (Claw), Feral Combat Training
CL6 Wrp4
CL7 Wrp5 Extra Rage Power - Lesser Fiend Totem
CL8 Wrp6 Martial Versatility (Feral Combat Training), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
CL9 Wrp7 Extra Rage Power - Animal Fury
CL10 Wrp8
CL11 Wrp9 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Weapon Focus (Unarmed)
CL12 Wrp10

GEAR
• Furious Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists
• Headband of Wisdom +4
• Belt of Dex +6
• Cloak of Resistance +3
• Celestial Armor
• Amulet of Natural Armor +1
• 2600gp remaining

Sacred Armor +1, Brawling

AC 26

Full Attack (Dex-Raging, Sacred Fist, Divine Power, Fight as One after first hit)
+28 Unarmed / +30 Unarmed / +30 Unarmed / +27 Bite / +27 Gore / +27 Claw / +27 Claw / +25 Unarmed / +25 Unarmed / +20 Unarmed

AVG DPR 227.225 per round (standing still)

Now, this is all presuming that Fight As One counts you as your own Ally (it probably should, but... eh, if it doesn't, it's still a LOT of damage).

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ST. MIGHTY THE ARMADILLO (Double-Shield Warpriest)
Human Warpriest 12
BASE STATS Str 12 / Dex 18 (16+2) / Con 14 / Int 12 / Wis 14 / Cha 7
STATS at lv12 Str 13 / Dex 26 (16+2+3+6) / Con 14 / Int 12 / Wis 14 / Cha 7

TRAITS Fate’s Favored, ???
BLESSINGS ???, ???

Race Weapon Finesse
CL1 Improved Shield Bash, Weapon Focus (Light Shield)*
CL2
CL3 Two-Weapon Fighting, Double Slice
CL4
CL5 Dual Enhancement
CL6 Shield Slam, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
CL7 Greater Weapon Focus (Light Shield)*
CL8
CL9 ???, ???**
CL10
CL11 ???
CL12 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, ???

GEAR
• Celestial Armor
• Lion’s Shield
• Lion’s Shield
• Belt of Dexterity +6
• Amulet of Natural Armor +1
• Cloak of Resistance +2
• Ring of Protection +1

Sacred Weapon Agile, Agile, +1
Sacred Armor +2

Full Attack at lv12 (Sacred Weapon & Divine Power Active)
+27, 1d10+3+8/ +27, 1d10+3+8/ +27, 1d10+3+8/ +22, 1d10+3+8/ +22, 1d10+3+8)/ +17, 1d10+3+8

AC at Lv12 (Sacred Armor Active) 35 = 10 +11(Armor) +8(Dex) +4(Shield) +1(Nat Arm) +1(Deflection)

*Retrain to (Heavy Shield) at lv11
** Retrain to Shield Master at lv11

---

Double-Starknife / Thrower Warpriest
Human Warpriest 10 / Guide Ranger 2
BASE STATS Str 12 / Dex 18 (16+2) / Con 14 / Int 12 / Wis 14 / Cha 7
STATS at lv12 Str 13 / Dex 26 (16+2+3+6) / Con 14 / Int 12 / Wis 14 / Cha 7

TRAITS Fate’s Favored, ???
BLESSINGS Air, ???

Race Weapon Finesse
CL1 Wrp1 Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Starknife)
CL2 Rng1 Track
CL3 Rng2 Double Slice, Precise Shot
CL4 Wrp2
CL5 Wrp3 ???*, Quick Draw
CL6 Wrp4
CL7 Wrp5 Point-Blank Shot
CL8 Wrp6 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Specialization
CL9 Wrp7 Rapid Shot
CL10 Wrp8
CL11 Wrp9 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Weapon Focus
CL12 Wrp10

GEAR
• Blinkback Belt
• +3 Starknife
• +3 Starknife

Sacred Weapon +2
Sacred Armor +2

Full Attack at lv12 (Sacred Weapon & Divine Power Active)
+25 / +25 / +25 / +25 / +20 / +20 / +15

* Retrain to Dual Enhancement at lv6

Compendium books

a) become obsolete the next month
b) are associated with new editions of the game coming right next up.

There is ONE Way the could get away with it.

Player Compendium Vol. 1: 2008-2010
Player Compendium Vol. 2: 2010-2012
Player Compendium Vol. 3: 2012-2014

etc.

Basically, after the Player's Companions go out of print, reprint them in large books, with the caveat that they're planned to be in multiple "volumes".

---

Alternatively, group 'em together nicely:

Pathfinder Player Compendium: Lands of Golarion Vol. 1 (Osirion, Land of Pharaohs; Taldor, Echoes of Glory; Qadira, Gateway to the East; Cheliax, Empire of Devils; Andoran, Spirit of Liberty; Sargava, the Lost Colony; Varisia, Birthplace of Legends; Dragon Empires Primer; Inner Sea Primer)

Pathfinder Player Compendium: Races of Golarion Vol. 1 (Elves of Golarion, Orcs of Golarion, Gnomes of Golarion, Goblins of Golarion, Halflings of Golarion, Humans of Golarion, Kobolds of Golarion, Bastards of Golarion)

Pathfinder Player Compendium: Adventurers' Manuals Vol. 1 (Dungeoneer's Handbook, Dragon Slayer's Handbook, Demon Hunter's Handbook, Undead Slayer's Handbook, Giant Hunter's Handbook, Monster Summoner's Handbook, Weapon Master's Handbook, Ranged Tactics Toolbox, Melee Tactics Toolbox, Dirty Tactics Toolbox)

Pathfinder Player Compendium: Peoples of Golarion Vol 1. (People of the North, People of the Stars, People of the River, People of the Sands, Pirates of the Inner Sea, Knights of the Inner Sea, Heroes of the Wild, Heroes of the Streets)

Pathfinder Player Compendium: Adventurer's Options Vol. 1 (Adventurer's Armory, Animal Archive, Magical Marketplace, Alchemy Manual, Familiar Folio, Cohorts and Companions, Harrow handbook, Black Markets)

Pathfinder Player Compendium: Champions of Faith Vol. 1 (Faiths & Philosophies, Faiths of Purity, Champions of Purity, Faiths of Balance, Champions of Balance, Faiths of Corruption, Champions of Corrpution, etc.)

Pathfinder Player Compendium: Scions of Golarion Vol. 1 (Blood of Angels, Blood of Fiends, Blood of the Night, Blood of Elementals, Blood of the Moon, etc.)

chbgraphicarts wrote:

...having on-staff employees is substantially cheaper in the long-run than having freelancers, however...

If you're looking solely at creative output...maybe. But employees get things like benefits and healthcare that a freelancer doesn't necessarily get, so maybe not cheaper overall.

AS a freelancer, I can say that freelancers are MUCH more expensive in the long run if you use them again and again.

When you're an employee, your salary + benefits add up to an amount that's pretty substantially less than what you'd make as a freelancer, but the pay-off is that you're GUARANTEED to be paid and get benefits.

As a Freelancer, you HAVE to milk a commission for what you can to a degree, because there's NO guarantee that you'll be getting any work again for quite some time (that being said, many/most artists will give discounts to repeat-clients because they know they're very likely to continue getting business again). The life of a freelancer is basically seeing how long you can make your last paycheck last...

Freelancers, however, provide a service that has some intangible qualities to it, particularly that:

a) if you don't like an artist's work, or even just don't like an artist, you can choose to not use them again, and call the experience (and money) a loss.

b) you don't have to pay freelancers for sickness, injury, vacations, maternity... if they can't provide work for a commission, you just pass the commission onto someone else; with an employee, if they can't do the work for any of the aforementioned reasons, you have to not only still pay them but also pay someone ELSE to cover their job for them, possibly doubling the all-around costs.

b) is much more of a gamble than a) is, but it's still something to consider.

Artists, especially, are generally freelancers, too, because the need for art is on such a case-by-case basis. Unlike comics where you have hired-on artists who can either be signed on as a project-by-project basis or are employees of the company and produce comics for years or decades, you might not need artists for much in a book.

Wayne Reynolds, for instance, is probably THE most-iconic artist for Pathfinder, yet he's far from the only artist to have works produced in the Big Books; at the same time, while the art is needed, authors are a much-higher priority than the artists - after all, the game has to have content first and pretty art second... great-looking art in a gamebook will only sell so many copies before people stop buying it 'cause they don't like the system.

As a game-designer and publisher, Paizo will ALWAYS need authors churning out content, but they don't need character artists or illustrators doing the same, especially since art is a surprisingly small amount of product realty in the long run of a book.

Now GRAPHIC artists, however - they DO need them constantly and need them to churn out materials like logos, iconcs, etc., on a basically-daily basis. So you're much-more likely to see a graphic designer on-staff than an illustrator.

Comics, on the other hand, are 1/2 art, 1/2 writing. Since the art is much, MUCH more integral to the product, the investment of on-staff illustrators makes a lot more sense.

Generally, a Freelancer will ALWAYS cost you more on a case-by-case basis: if you're going to spend $15 once a month every year, for example, for a service that you know you're always going to need, and can get instead for a contractual $3 a month, you're better off spending the $3 a month. However, if you're only going to use that service once every 4 months, that contract isn't so hot.

So, having on-staff authors effectively pays for itself both in overall costs and in convenience; having on-staff illustrators, however, might not, but having on-staff graphic artists will probably end up being somewhere in the middle.

Basically, it comes down partly to money and convenience, and the company determines where the happy medium between them lies when deciding if hiring on someone full-time or leaving them as a freelancer is worth it.

Luthorne wrote:

Joe Hex wrote:

Sorry to tilt off topic a bit, but has anything been posted on the site announcing Horror Adventures? I only heard about it by reading this thread.

I don't think so, but Know Direction mentioned it in brief here, and they'll probably put up the recording of the announcement at GenCon fairly soon, though for now I believe they only have the Adventure Path Question & Answer part up, though I'm sure that will change soon enough.

Thanks! :)

It's a long way off, but I'm already very interested. My campaign is equal parts fantasy/gothic horror- new options will be great to have. I've been wanting a more playable vampire for a long time, so I hope that's explored. The template in the Bestiary is not so useful for players.

It sounds like they hinted at players becoming vampires, albeit in a slower and more balanced progression than the Bestiary method.

Probably slowly gaining abilities and weaknesses as time passes, and depending on the number of people you feed on. This is just conjecture, but there might even be instances to try and oppose the cravings and further transformation by making a Will or Fort save - think Louis from Interview With the Vampire.

Primitive Adventures- Rules for primitive settings such as cavemen/dinosaurs, Tarzan, Jungle Book, etc.

I've been thinking about what a book like that would even be called, 'cause "Primative" Adventures is just ASKING to piss off people from pre-industrial cultures like Native Americans, African tribes, several Pacific Island cultures, etc.

I think a book like that can exist absolutely, but it'd need to be called "Primeval Adventures" - Primeval still gives an idea that Nature, and especially the rainforest, is the dominant force at play, and Civilization has only barely made a dent in it (or has receded back into it in some cases).

It could cover pre-industrial or tropical Mayincatec-style cultures, ancient nation-states like the Khmer Empire and cities like Angkor Wat, lost jungle civilizations like those featured in Edgar Rice Buroughs' Tarzan series, or wild contemporary rainforest life like in Rudyard Kipling's The Jungle Book. There might even be an emphasis on entering and navigating ancient tombs therein, ala Indiana Jones; there, of course, could also be a section about playing prehistoric campaigns or something along the lines of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's The Lost World, or even incorporating such beasts into a campaign with the aforementioned tropical civilizations, in the vein of Dinotopia.

James Jacobs wrote:

Book is certainly still deep in the concept stages, of course... but yeah. We're absolutely not glued to the idea that there needs to be a new character class in the book at all. We'll have more concrete news about the book down the line, of course.

Other than a dedicated Necromancer... or maybe a Cultist class, not sure what would fit.

Archetypes though....

Normal Cultists are just Commoners, Experts, or Aristocrats that are devoted to a cult.

Magic Cultists already exist - they're called evil-aligned Clerics.

There's also a plethora of Archetypes to handle Cultist-style magic characters, like Cult Leader Warpriest, Cult Master Mesmerist, etc.

It is just another product that makes me wonder how much more affordable it would be if authors weren't paid by the word. No more useful to me, mind you, but at least affordable.

That's... not how it works at all.

Writers are commissioned to write entries and are allotted a certain amount of space.

They can go OVER that space, but more than likely will be required to cut back on unnecessary wording or mechanics in an attempt to trim the book down to as few pages (in multiples of 4) as possible.

Pagecount is a big issue facing anyone who publishes material, because more pages means a higher price, but usually it's a matter of cents per book once you get up to the large quantities that Pathfinder books are printed in.

More than anything, it's the cost of transporting and housing books that makes the price rise substantially. Materials also plays into it, especially the cost of making books hardbound, as do the costs of advertising, etc.

You of course need to pay creatives (authors & artists) and editors, as well as other employees like sales reps, etc.; having on-staff employees is substantially cheaper in the long-run than having freelancers, however (freelancers can negotiate their price based on the amount and importance of what they write; employees write whatever they're assigned to, regardless of length and or importance, without a change in price), so when producing a big hardbound book, each individual author, editor, artist, etc., barely makes a dent in the final cost of the book.