Brawler Nonsense


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

So, after finding something quite interesting the other day, i felt like i should get it clarified, though from everything i've been able to find it absolutely works.

The brawler's class ability Martial training states:
At 1st level, a brawler counts her total brawler levels as both fighter levels and monk levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats. She also counts as both a fighter and a monk for feats and magic items that have different effects based on whether the character has levels in those classes (such as Stunning Fist and a monk's robe). This ability does not automatically grant feats normally granted to fighters and monks based on class level, namely Stunning Fist.

This gives the assumption that it works for other magic items too, namely the Sash of the war champion which reads:
The wearer treats his fighter level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of the armor training and bravery class features.

So my question is this. At 7th level brawler, with sash of the war champion, I get armor training and bravery as though i was an 11th lvl fighter. At 11th fighter I get armor training 3, which lowers the armor check penalty by 3.
So if i have mithral full plate, and this sash, i can put my armor check penalty to 0, meaning that if i don't have heavy armor proficiency (the brawler only gets light) then i'd have to take my armor check penalty to my attack rolls? so... I take -0 to all attack rolls, the armor training still allows me to move at full speed, and it's lighter (on top of getting bravery of 11th lvl fighter). I just want to make sure i'm reading all of this right.


I wouldn't think so, as those class features belong to Fighter class. You're a Brawler, you don't have armor training or bravery. So the item is useless to you.


MikeM16A4 wrote:
So my question is this. At 7th level brawler, with sash of the war champion, I get armor training and bravery as though i was an 11th lvl fighter. At 11th fighter I get armor training 3, which lowers the armor check penalty by 3.

Wrong there, you don't gain abilities you don't have - you actually have to HAVE Armor Training and Bravery before the Sash counts you as a lv11 Fighter.

Now, if you were a Fighter 3 / Brawler 4 with a Sash, then, yes, you would actually count as a Fighter 11 in a prime example of very wonky rules interactions. (you have Armor Training 1 and Bravery normally, but the Sash ups your effective Fighter Level by +4, which triggers the effects of Martial Training, counting you in total as a baseline Fighter 7 plus 4 for the effects of that Sash).

cont. wrote:
So if i have mithral full plate, and this sash, i can put my armor check penalty to 0, meaning that if i don't have heavy armor proficiency (the brawler only gets light) then i'd have to take my armor check penalty to my attack rolls? so... I take -0 to all attack rolls, the armor training still allows me to move at full speed, and it's lighter (on top of getting bravery of 11th lvl fighter). I just want to make sure i'm reading all of this right.

IF you follow the course I mentioned before. A straight Brawler 7 doesn't, though, because the Sash can't increase what isn't there.

Grand Lodge

Yes, BUT it specifically mentions i count as a fighter AND a monk for the purposes of magic items, then specifically references the monk's robes, which state "When worn, this simple brown robe confers great ability in unarmed combat. If the wearer has levels in monk, her AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher. If donned by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the robe lets her make one additional stunning attack per day. If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-Level monk (although she does not add her Wisdom bonus to her AC). This AC bonus functions just like the monk's AC bonus."
I would count as having monk levels to receive the first effect, and not the effect of having no monk levels. On the FAQ for the Sash of the war champion people are saying that if you have no levels in fighter the sash doesn't work, but my own ability is stating that i do have levels in fighter, which begs the question.
The sash of the war champion nor the FAQ state i need to have the abilities, just levels in fighter. This is why i'm asking. Because if it works for the monk's robes, it'd have to work for everything else.


MikeM16A4 wrote:

Yes, BUT it specifically mentions i count as a fighter AND a monk for the purposes of magic items, then specifically references the monk's robes, which state "When worn, this simple brown robe confers great ability in unarmed combat. If the wearer has levels in monk, her AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher. If donned by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the robe lets her make one additional stunning attack per day. If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-Level monk (although she does not add her Wisdom bonus to her AC). This AC bonus functions just like the monk's AC bonus."

I would count as having monk levels to receive the first effect, and not the effect of having no monk levels. On the FAQ for the Sash of the war champion people are saying that if you have no levels in fighter the sash doesn't work, but my own ability is stating that i do have levels in fighter, which begs the question.
The sash of the war champion nor the FAQ state i need to have the abilities, just levels in fighter. This is why i'm asking. Because if it works for the monk's robes, it'd have to work for everything else.

... But you don't automatically gain all of those respective classes's abilities from a magic item, only the ones the Brawler inherits from them. Since a Slayer has sneak attack damage, he can benefit from sneak attack feats and magic items that improve or effect it, but a Slayer doesn't gain benefit for magic items that enhance animal companion abilities, since a Slayer class doesn't have an animal companion ability, only the Ranger/Druid (and other) classes do.

A Brawler has Unarmed Damage and AC Bonus inherited from Monk, so he can benefit from the Monk's Robes from those. But a Brawler doesn't inherit Armor training or Bravery from Fighter, so he can't benefit from magic items that boost that.

EDIT: The Brawler generally benefits from "levels in fighter" for meeting Feat requirements. There's really no class abilities that a Brawler inherits from Fighter, unfortunately.


Sash of the War Champion wrote:

This bright red strip of cloth, stitched with images of a cheering crowd throwing garlands toward a chariot, fits across the wearer's shoulders and then diagonally down his chest to reach his opposite hip.

The wearer treats his fighter level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of the armor training and bravery class features.

"4 higher than normal"

You know what your normal level for the purposes of Armor Training and Bravery are?

"-"

Not even 0. It does not apply. You do not have those abilities. Period. At all.


Brawlers inherits a decent chunk of the Fighter's biggest class features: Bonus feats!

... Which still isn't all that much.


My Self wrote:

Brawlers inherits a decent chunk of the Fighter's biggest class features: Bonus feats!

... Which still isn't all that much.

That's a good point. I don't usually think about bonus feats as a class ability since they ultimately translate into just being more feats in the end. Although they get a few less bonus feats than Fighter, they do compensate by becoming "combat feat casters".

Shadow Lodge

As far as I know, there has never been a rules clarification for no levels vs being level 0. If there has, please link it to me so I can sit here corrected like an idiot.

The Monk's Robes only need the statement about what happens to non-monks because the robe specifically calls out monks. It says "If the wearer has levels in monk," while the Sash of the War Champion says, "The wearer treats his fighter level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of the armor training and bravery class features." There is nothing else there. If I am level 0 (again, no clarification there) and I am wearing the sash then gaining 4 levels gives me level 4 for the purposes of Armor Training and Bravery, which means I have those abilities. As written, no fighter levels are required for this item.

Another example is the Robe of Arcane Heritage. This item again calls out a specific class, "When a sorcerer dons a robe of arcane heritage, the stitching pulls itself apart and reweaves to match her particular sorcerer bloodline."

If the Sash said something like this, I would agree. It does not though. It says to treat it as 4 levels higher than normal. A character with no fighter levels normally has 0 levels.

I have also not found any other rules that say that items like this cannot give you the abilities.


coxey292 wrote:
If I am level 0

There is no level 0. If you have 1 level in a class, then yes, you could make use of items that are associated with the abilities granted by that class.

A brawler has fighter and monk levels for specific purposes (feats and magic items). The magic items cannot grant new abilities that don't exist with the brawler class itself.

EDIT: Think of the implications if there were such thing as a level 0. That implies that a character has every conceivable class there is, just at level 0, granting that character any abilities if their level is somehow improved by various means beyond actually leveling, like magic items. The fact is, there just isn't a level 0 on any class chart or character advancement chart, at least that I've seen.

Shadow Lodge

Okay, so let's say I have no apples, and somebody gives me 4 apples, how many apples do I have? I think 4, you think that I don't get them, because I didn't have any apples in the first place.

None = 0 in all of mathematics. If they have clarified this, please link it to me. I really would like to know because I think this brawler thing is b!$&*@!#, but it does work, rules as written.

I also have never seen a rule saying that magic items cannot give you class abilities, and following the logically nature of nothing + 4 = 4, this does indeed give you the armor training and bravery of a 4th level fighter.

Again, if I am wrong, I will gladly admit it, but you have to show me the rules.

EDIT: Even if I have no levels in something and something gives me 4 levels, no matter what(no prereqs for those levels in the Sash), then I have 4 levels.

Scarab Sages

3 people marked this as a favorite.
coxey292 wrote:
None = 0 in all of mathematics.

That is not even remotely true. A null value is distinct from zero "in all of mathematics".

Null+4=Null

0+4=4

There is no need for a specific ruling on this because it has been made clear repeatedly in other instances. Something that improves a feature does nothing if you do not have that feature in the first place.


coxey292 wrote:
Okay, so let's say I have no apples, and somebody gives me 4 apples, how many apples do I have? I think 4, you think that I don't get them, because I didn't have any apples in the first place.

As Duiker said, this isn't really correct.

Your Fighter level is "null" not 0. As usually represented in Pathfinder RPG rules as I put i my first post "-". A zombie doesn't have a Con score of 0. It has a Con score of "-". Casting Bear's Endurance on it leaves it with a Con score of "-", not 4, because "-"+4 is still "-", because "-" is not equivalent to 0.

It's like asking "How far will this gallon of gas get me?" when you're riding a bicycle. You're putting gas into something that doesn't run on gas. It doesn't do anything.


coxey292 wrote:

Okay, so let's say I have no apples, and somebody gives me 4 apples, how many apples do I have? I think 4, you think that I don't get them, because I didn't have any apples in the first place.

None = 0 in all of mathematics. If they have clarified this, please link it to me. I really would like to know because I think this brawler thing is b@#~&+*~, but it does work, rules as written.

I also have never seen a rule saying that magic items cannot give you class abilities, and following the logically nature of nothing + 4 = 4, this does indeed give you the armor training and bravery of a 4th level fighter.

Again, if I am wrong, I will gladly admit it, but you have to show me the rules.

EDIT: Even if I have no levels in something and something gives me 4 levels, no matter what(no prereqs for those levels in the Sash), then I have 4 levels.

Your math is sound. But this isn't simply an addition math problem. These are rules for an RPG (and even beyond that, there are situations where you definitely don't start counting at 0).

The fact is that there is no level 0 in the rules for character or class advancement. The closest thing to a level 0 are cantrip/orison spells (accessible to a level 1 wizards/clerics/druids etc., for that matter). The proof of burden is on you to provide proof that a level 0 character or class exists in the core or any other rules.

Duiker wrote:
That is not even remotely true. A null value is distinct from zero "in all of mathematics".

That's a very solid way of putting it, great example.

EDIT:

Rynjin wrote:
It's like asking "How far will this gallon of gas get me?" when you're riding a bicycle. You're putting gas into something that doesn't run on gas. It doesn't do anything.

And another good example, Mr. Ninja.

Grand Lodge

Duiker wrote:
coxey292 wrote:
None = 0 in all of mathematics.

That is not even remotely true. A null value is distinct from zero "in all of mathematics".

Null+4=Null

0+4=4

There is no need for a specific ruling on this because it has been made clear repeatedly in other instances. Something that improves a feature does nothing if you do not have that feature in the first place.

I'm going to have to agree with coxey292 here. If the item actually worked like this, it'd be useless for anything not a minimum of fighter 3 (which isn't true because a fighter 1 or 2 with this item would get the ability). If it worked the way you said it did, even without having shown actual rulings for it, then this item would be useless not only for any multiclassed fighter, but any fighter below level 3, in which you already got the ability you were looking for, and even the majority of the fighter archetypes.

Grand Lodge

Rynjin wrote:


As Duiker said, this isn't really correct.

Your Fighter level is "null" not 0. As usually represented in Pathfinder RPG rules as I put i my first post "-". A zombie doesn't have a Con score of 0. It has a Con score of "-". Casting Bear's Endurance on it leaves it with a Con score of "-", not 4, because "-"+4 is still "-", because "-" is not equivalent to 0.

There are rules specifically stating that a zombie's con is "-", but from what coxey has said there has been no clarification on whether or not class levels are null or 0.


MikeM16A4 wrote:


I'm going to have to agree with coxey292 here. If the item actually worked like this, it'd be useless for anything not a minimum of fighter 3 (which isn't true because a fighter 1 or 2 with this item would get the ability).

[Citation Needed]

A Fighter 2 still has a level of Null for the purpose of Armor Training. He does not have Armor Training. Likewise, a Fighter who trades out Armor Training does not get Armor Training as if he were a 4th level Fighter.

I'm not sure why this concept is so hard to cotton onto for some peoople.

If you don't have something you DO NOT HAVE something.

More of something you don't have any of is still nothing.

You do not have Fighter levels for the purpose of Armor Training and Bravery if you do not have Armor Training and Bravery. At all. You don't have them. Because you don't have the abilities. It is THAT SIMPLE.

MikeM16A4 wrote:
Rynjin wrote:


As Duiker said, this isn't really correct.

Your Fighter level is "null" not 0. As usually represented in Pathfinder RPG rules as I put i my first post "-". A zombie doesn't have a Con score of 0. It has a Con score of "-". Casting Bear's Endurance on it leaves it with a Con score of "-", not 4, because "-"+4 is still "-", because "-" is not equivalent to 0.

There are rules specifically stating that a zombie's con is "-", but from what coxey has said there has been no clarification on whether or not class levels are null or 0.

There don't need to be. You don't have any. It's quite clear that you don't have any, because you don't have any of them.

You don't have an effective level of 0 in every class in the game. You are not part of the classes you don't have at all.

It's not a matter of having less of the class than others (which 0 would be), you simply don't interact with that class at all unless you have levels in it.


MikeM16A4 wrote:


I'm going to have to agree with coxey292 here. If the item actually worked like this, it'd be useless for anything not a minimum of fighter 3 (which isn't true because a fighter 1 or 2 with this item would get the ability). If it worked the way you said it did, even without having shown actual rulings for it, then this item would be useless not only for any multiclassed fighter, but any fighter below level 3, in which you already got the ability you were looking for, and even the majority of the fighter archetypes.

Yes. A character with a Fighter class would have beneficial use of the Sash of the War Champion as it benefits the Fighter class's abilities, armor training and bravery.

However, a Brawler class doesn't have armor training and bravery, and only has levels in Fighter (not the class), and only to the specific effect of feats as well as and magic items that benefit shared abilities between the Fighter and Brawler.

MikeM16A4 wrote:
There are rules specifically stating that a zombie's con is "-", but from what coxey has said there has been no clarification on whether or not class levels are null or 0.

Well, that's we've been trying to clarify for you. The clarification is that there simply is no level 0 for characters or class advancement in the rulebook, period. Look at the class advancement tables. They start at level 1, and there is no explained concept of 0. Look at Character advancement. It starts at level 1. Please, for the love of Wisdom, be clarified!

Grand Lodge

I also don't have levels in monk, but my class ability states that i get levels in monk for the PURPOSES of magic items (monk's robe). So i'd get the ac bonus and unarmed strike damage as that of a monk of 5 levels higher (since martial training says i'm technically a monk). BUT your argument is that i don't actually have the unarmed strike damage or the ac bonus of a monk, since those are monk class features, and i don't get those. so the item just doesn't work for me, even though it says it does? and if it works for this item, which by your own rules it shouldn't because i don't actually have these monk class features, it needs to work for everything else involving the magic items.

I'll even put this another way. RAW i get monk abilities 5 levels higher than my effective brawler level. so at level 7 i'd get 12th level monk unarmed strike damage and 12th level monk AC, but since magic items can't grant me those abilities since i don't actually have those abilities it doesnt work. EVEN THOUGH i have an ability that says they work.

So by using that SAME LOGIC, rules as written i'd get the effect of having a fighter 11th from sash of the war champion, since it checks my total fighter level, but i wouldnt get the abilities, even though i'd get them from the monks robes?

If it works for one thing, it has to work for the other. and since it WORKS for the monks robe, rules as written it works here.


MikeM16A4 wrote:

I also don't have levels in monk, but my class ability states that i get levels in monk for the PURPOSES of magic items (monk's robe). So i'd get the ac bonus and unarmed strike damage as that of a monk of 5 levels higher (since martial training says i'm technically a monk). BUT your argument is that i don't actually have the unarmed strike damage or the ac bonus of a monk, since those are monk class features, and i don't get those. so the item just doesn't work for me, even though it says it does? and if it works for this item, which by your own rules it shouldn't because i don't actually have these monk class features, it needs to work for everything else involving the magic items.

I'll even put this another way. RAW i get monk abilities 5 levels higher than my effective brawler level. so at level 7 i'd get 12th level monk unarmed strike damage and 12th level monk AC, but since magic items can't grant me those abilities since i don't actually have those abilities it doesnt work. EVEN THOUGH i have an ability that says they work.

So by using that SAME LOGIC, rules as written i'd get the effect of having a fighter 11th from sash of the war champion, since it checks my total fighter level, but i wouldnt get the abilities, even though i'd get them from the monks robes?

If it works for one thing, it has to work for the other. and since it WORKS for the monks robe, rules as written it works here.

Except the Monk's Robe has ENTIRELY DIFFERENT wording.

A Brawler has "levels in Monk", which is what the Monk's Robe requires to fully function.

It then goes on to say "her AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher"

This can be parsed one of two ways:

-Your Monk level is treated as higher than it is already (which is meaningless in this case, so it does nothing).

-Your AC and unarmed damage become that of a Monk five levels higher than your own (which means at 5th level you would have an effective Monk level of 10 for those abilities, because you have a "Monk level" of X and you are treated as if your AC and Unarmed were that of a Monk 5 levels higher. Which means you gain the abilities at a level X+5 ).

Either can be correct, but we'll assume the latter for this purpose.

Note that at no point does it say "Your monk level for the purposes of [Class features you do not have]". You are treated as a Monk of five levels higher with those abilities.

Quote:
If the wearer has levels in monk, her AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher.

And

Quote:
The wearer treats his fighter level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of the armor training and bravery class features.

Are very, very, VERY different wordings.

It is not, as you suggest, both or neither. They are not the same, or even truly similar examples at all.

Grand Lodge

Rynjin wrote:


Except the Monk's Robe has ENTIRELY DIFFERENT wording.

A Brawler has "levels in Monk", which is what the Monk's Robe requires to fully function.

It then goes on to say "her AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher"

This can be parsed one of two ways:

-Your Monk level is treated as higher than it is already (which is meaningless in this case, so it does nothing).

-Your AC and unarmed damage become that of a Monk five levels higher than your own (which means at 5th level you would have an effective Monk level of 10 for those abilities, because...

Yes, so I'm saying the same thing you're saying. I have levels in monk, and so i count my AC bonus and unarmed strike damage as a monk of 5 levels higher. But I don't have {Monk Class ability: AC bonus} and {Monk Class ability: Unarmed strike Damage},as per your own statement of not getting abilities just because you have effective levels, so by your own rules I wouldn't get those increases. According to you, this is because even though i have effective levels in a class, i don't get the class abilities, even if i have magic items granting them to me. And I wouldn't get the increases from NOT having monk levels either, because as we both agree i have monk levels.

Now, the ONLY difference in these is the wordings according to you. Because the Monk's Robe says exactly what happens if i have levels in monk (which is increasing my level for the purposes of abilities that i do not get). The Sash on the other hand says that i count my fighter levels higher for the purposes of abilities that I do not get. So how are these different?

THIS is where it needs clarification. Because, and bear with me, according to EVERYONE else on this thread you do not get class abilities from increases in effective levels unless the item specifically says it does. The monk's robe's specifically say that they grant me 5th level monk abilities if i don't have levels in it. But i do have levels in monk, just not the abilities of the monk. And my own ability

Martial Training (Ex)

At 1st level, a brawler counts her total brawler levels as both fighter levels and monk levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats. She also counts as both a fighter and a monk for feats and magic items that have different effects based on whether the character has levels in those classes (such as Stunning Fist and a monk's robe). This ability does not automatically grant feats normally granted to fighters and monks based on class level, namely Stunning Fist.

SAYS that the monk's robe works. I count as fighter AND monk for magic items and feats that have different effects based on whether or not i have levels in fighter. So the monk's robes would give me an effective level of (assuming brawler 7) 12th level monk for the purposes of unarmed strike and AC bonuses (class abilities i do not get). The Sash of the war champion would give me an effective level of (again, assuming brawler 7) 11th level fighter for the purposes of Armor training and bravery (once again, abilities i do not get).

There is no case by case basis here. I have fighter levels. I have monk levels. As per the rules written in the APG, the Monk's robes work. They grant me Monk AC and Monk Unarmed strike damage 5 levels higher than my brawler level.
The Sash of the War Champion would grant me Fighter Armor Training and Fighter bravery 4 levels higher than my brawler level.
I don't know where you guys got that magic items can't grant class abilities, but i don't know how to make it any more simple that they can. Otherwise Paizo messed up in stating that the Monk's robes work, and they need to errata that they don't actually work.


Quote:
Now, the ONLY difference in these is the wordings according to you.

This is literally just saying "The only way these things are different is that they're different".


you are very confused. The monk's robes will not give a lv5 brawler +2 AC what it does is whenever you see the work Monk or Fighter you can replace it with brawler.

So Monk's robes now says

When worn, this simple brown robe confers great ability in unarmed combat. If the wearer has levels in brawler, her AC and unarmed damage is treated as a brawler of five levels higher...

And the sash says

The wearer treats his brawler level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of the armor training and bravery class features.

Well a brawler treating his level as 4 higher for his armor training and bravery will still have nothing.

Also keep in mind that the levels don't stack or mix. If you were a fighter 3 and brawler 3 with the sash you'd count as a fighter 7 and brawler 7 for your armor training and bravery. Yes, you have 2 sets of fighter levels.


MikeM16A4 wrote:
Yes, so I'm saying the same thing you're saying. I have levels in monk, and so i count my AC bonus and unarmed strike damage as a monk of 5 levels higher. But I don't have {Monk Class ability: AC bonus} and {Monk Class ability: Unarmed strike Damage},as per your own statement of not getting abilities just because you have effective levels, so by your own rules I wouldn't get those increases. According to you, this is because even though i have effective levels in a class, i don't get the class abilities, even if i have magic items granting them to me. And I wouldn't get the increases from NOT having monk levels either, because as we both agree i have monk levels.

You have levels in monk. The robe's don't say {Monk Class ability: AC bonus} and {Monk Class ability: Unarmed strike Damage}, it says AC bonus, which the Brawler has. And they both have the Unarmed Strike class ability. Well looky there. The brawler has both the things that the monk's robes are effecting.

The sash on the other hand says to count your level as 4 higher for abilities you don't have. So it's the same as a Mutation warrior taking the sash, you are a lv 7 fighter for your armor training that you don't have. the sash never gives you the abilities.

The easiest to find Rule that - does not equal 0 is the FAQ on spells per day. It says there than not having something is very different from having something at 0. Another example is the Spelleater bloodrager and his DR. It says he has effective DR/- 0 for abilities that increase DR (like the primalist getting the DR rage power), because it shows/follows the rule that you can't increase something you don't have.

Grand Lodge

Chess Pwn wrote:


You have levels in monk. The robe's don't say {Monk Class ability: AC bonus} and {Monk Class ability: Unarmed strike Damage}, it says AC bonus, which the Brawler has. And they both have the Unarmed Strike class ability. Well looky there. The brawler has both the things that the monk's robes are effecting.

The sash on the other hand says to count your level as 4 higher for abilities you don't have. So it's the same as a Mutation warrior taking the sash, you are a lv 7 fighter for your armor training that you don't have. the sash never gives you the abilities.

The easiest to find Rule that - does not equal 0 is the FAQ on spells per day. It says there than not having something is very different from having something at 0. Another example is the Spelleater bloodrager and his DR. It says he has effective DR/- 0 for abilities that increase DR (like the primalist getting the DR rage power), because it shows/follows the rule that you can't increase something you don't have.

You're right, the robes don't say that. But the problem is that the AC of the monk scales at a different pace than the AC of a brawler. So the magic item implies you get the "5 levels higher" monk variant. Also, where did you find the ruling of replacing "fighter/monk" with "brawler"? I've spent the last few minutes searching through FAQs and erratas looking for anything that comes close to that, and came up with nothing.

I also spent some time looking through the magic items. The sash is the ONLY magic item that i found that only states "the wearer". The druid's vestments come close, but specifically state that you must have the abilities. Every other item like this says "the sorcerer/monk/paladin/inquisitor/arcane spellcaster/etc". The Sash is the only magic item that merely states the wearer.

Dark Archive

Both the Brawler and the Monk have a class feature called "AC Bonus (Ex)." Thus the Monk's Robe can work for both of them, because it references that class feature.

Brawler does not have Bravery or Armor Training. Thus an item that tries to do something with those abilities on a brawler returns a segfault.

Shadow Lodge

There are fighter archetypes that don't get armour training or bravery. Lots, in fact, including the Archer and Lore Warden.

So even if Sash of the War Champion did treat a 7th level Brawler as an 11th level fighter for purposes of those features, being an 11th level fighter doesn't actually grant those features.


As clarified elsewhere, if a fighter gives up armor training, he doesn't get to use the sash of the war champion. So it's not about the level of the class, it's about specifically being granted the class feature. And have a class feature when your class description tells you you gain that class feature. Which the brawler's Martial Training does not do in regards to any of the fighter class features. All it does is let brawler count his class levels as fighter levels for feats and magic items, not class features.


The sash of the war champion doesn't give a brawler, bravery or armor training any more than the Magical Knack trait gives a fighter spellcasting....

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Brawler Nonsense All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.