"Barbarians Are Already Bloodragers" - Making a "Bloodrager" within the existing rules


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Someone on A Pathfinder 2nd Edition FB group I frequent mentioned a while back the idea of converting the Bloodrager class to Pathfinder 2nd, and I went "I think it already exists. It's just Barbarian w/ Moment of Clarity and a Spellcasting Dedication"

Yeah... that opened a rabbit hole for me.

So, here's the first version of what became a guide to trying to make a Bloodrager. The biggest thing is figuring out which spells you can and can't cast based on being in a Rage and how many hands you have free.

I also wrote some sample builds, but, in full disclosure, I don't see myself as much of an optimizer, and I'm specifically much better at modeling an idea. I literally went "This would be cool!", and began doing research. If there are points of optimization I can include, feel free to let me know. They are also linked inside of the guide.

"Barbarians Are Already Bloodragers!" aka "The Bloodrager 2E Spell List"

Samples I created. I tried to vary the Instincts, the spellcasting traditions, and how many spells are focus spells vs spell slot spells.

Goblin Dragon Instinct Flames Oracle

Goblin Dragon Instinct Flames Oracle (Free Archetype)

Human Animal Instinct Aberrant Sorcerer Monk

Human Animal Instinct Aberrant Sorcerer Monk (Free Archetype)

Dwarf Giant Instinct Magus Psychic

Dwarf Giant Instinct Magus Psychic (Free Archetype)


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And have you tried actually playing one of these builds in a Moderate or Severe threat encounter?


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Having the build working around moment of clarity would make the class pretty clunky in my opinion.

I think that the bloodrager might be a good archetype, giving rage by default ( as an alternative to the barbarian dedication), and the feats could provide a specific set of spells ( focus spells) that have the rage trait ( allowing them to use the spells while raging).


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

While this is doable, I think it fails to do what I like most about the Bloodrager. A bloodrager imo should be able to have their rage or rage analogue work with the spell-casting. Moment of clarity kind of goes against that vibe, you are pausing the rage to do the magic stuff.


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I played an elven barbarian (dragon)/oracle (flames) through Fists of the Ruby Phoenix. Somewhat similar to your goblin build. 90% of the spells I cast were Blink Charge and Incendiary Aura.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
breithauptclan wrote:
And have you tried actually playing one of these builds in a Moderate or Severe threat encounter?

Not enough to feel comfortable discussing efficacy, hence my statements about optimization. I've run through some personal test battles, but that isn't the same as running through a chapter of an Adventure Path, as an example. I'll need to wait until I join another campaign (and make myself not play a Monk) to give a realistic field test.

pixierose wrote:
While this is doable, I think it fails to do what I like most about the Bloodrager. A bloodrager imo should be able to have their rage or rage analogue work with the spell-casting. Moment of clarity kind of goes against that vibe, you are pausing the rage to do the magic stuff.

So take stuff that doesn't require Moment of Clarity. That's half of what took up time to write the guide - finding all of the stuff that could be cast on its own. Heal, Harm, Elemental Toss and Shadow Projectile are all great examples of spells that can be cast without Moment of Clarity.

To rephrase, Rage /DOES/ work with spellcasting. It doesn't work as well with /ALL/ spellcasting... and it shouldn't given balance issues.


JAMRenaissance wrote:
Someone on A Pathfinder 2nd Edition FB group I frequent mentioned a while back the idea of converting the Bloodrager class to Pathfinder 2nd, and I went "I think it already exists. It's just Barbarian w/ Moment of Clarity and a Spellcasting Dedication"

I mostly agree. A PF1 bloodrager is two thirds barbarian and one third sorcerer, so a PF2 barbarian with Sorcerer Multiclass Dedication would come close.

However, such a combination would consume most of the class feats.

I myself and two other threads had tried porting bloodrager to PF2: Klaam posted Bloodrager Instinct in the Homebrew forum in September 2019 and Pigusta220 posted Bloodrage Class Archetype in November 2022.

My own challenge was that back in January 2023 I wanted the bloodrager Val from my completed PF1 Iron Gods campaign to make a cameo appearance in my ongoing PF2-converted Ironfang Invasion campaign. Thus, my goal was to convert a particular bloodrager over to PF2 without losing her characteristic abilities. She had rage powers and bloodline powers and archetypes and a familiar and had learned to use a firearm. Duplicating those required a lot of class feats and archetype feats, so I invented a Bloodline Instinct to give the Sorcerer Multiclass Dedication as part of the instinct, just like the rogue's Eldritch Trickster racket gives a spellcasting multiclass dedication as part of the racket: PF1 Bloodrager Val Baine Converted to PF2.

breithauptclan wrote:
And have you tried actually playing one of these builds in a Moderate or Severe threat encounter?

I did put Val Baine into combat in her visit to my Ironfang Invasion campaign. She accompanied the party to their return to the end of Prisoners of the Blight to defeat Blighted Fey Queen Arlantia. My oversized party was at 17th level, above the expected level, so I beefed up the encounter by building Queen Arlantia as a 20th-level witch and adding a 15th-level Marrmora, a 16th-level Vilderavn, and a 19th-level Vilderavn Herald.

Val's contribution to the battle was dull. She mainly took the brunt from the two vilderavns while the party focused on Queen Arlantia. She shot the Elemental Ammunition in her firearm at the vilderavn and missed. Then the vilderavn and the vilderavn herald flanked her and dealt about 250 damage to her. Vilderavns hit hard; fortunately, Val had the 296 hp of a barbarian. And she damaged them back with her khopesh. Ordinarily, the champion would have used her Liberating Step to pull a party member out of trouble after the first hit, but the player of the champion was slow to notice that Val was badly hurt. She said that Val was not whining enough, her usual clue that a teammate needed a rescue. I am too quiet during my NPC versus NPC battles. The leshy sorcerer had to cast Regenerate on Val to keep her from bleeding to death from the vilderavns' Bloodbird curse. The combat moved away from them during the healing and they did not catch up before the battle was over.

Val did fare better than the other NPC, a 16th-level sprite (atomie) swashbucker named Gossamer. Gossamer tried facing the Marrmora one on one, but she had the wrong abilities to hurt him.

Anyway, Val fared as well in that combat as one of JAMRenaissance's builds would have. She acted mainly as a barbarian with a few magical abilities. Val's air elemental bloodline abilities mattered more during the earlier game session when the Numerians Val and Casandalee rescued the party from a totally unfair interdimensional trap that Queen Arlantia had set up. Or rather, that I had set up with two known solutions to see how clever the players would be in finding their own different solution. They figured out how to send a message to Numeria and the kineticist Collin opened an air gate for Val to link them to the Numerians' dimension-hopping spaceship.


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For me, in PF1, the Bloodrager wasn't about the small number of spells you got (which I basically never cast in combat except for the free cast you got from greater bloodrage), I was there for "Aberrant Bloodrager gives you reach", "Abyssal gives you enlarge", "Arcane gets you blur" etc.

So I'm already getting basically what I want from a Bloodrager from some of the Instincts, like how Giant gets to be big and how Dragon gets to breathe fire and grow wings.

What I'm missing are things like a Fiendish, Elemental, Fey, and Aberrant instinct for the Barbarian. If I got those, I wouldn't really need a bloodrager.


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Obligatory annual expression of my desire for a rakshasa instinct for barbarians.

Really, I think Thaumaturge makes a much better base for hacking together an unofficial Bloodrager. You're already using your charisma, and you only spend an action when changing targets, not every time you use a spell.


Barbarian + Oracle is a Raging Prophet without the Prestige Class to actually mix the two things.

Barbarian + Sorcerer is not a Bloodrager because Bloodrager is not so much about casting spells, but being able to command your bloodline powers with rage. Instincts can make a "good enough if you squint", but you are missing a lot of stuff Bloodragers got.

Barbarian + Psychic doesn't have as much connections because Psychic was an underserved class as a whole. But still not really a bloodrager.


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Thankyou for revisting this topic. It has made me see that there are a good numbers of spells that you can cast while raging eg this list of non verbal spells
Highlights are Heal, Jump, Invisibility, Shadow Projectile.


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Gortle wrote:

Thankyou for revisting this topic. It has made me see that there are a good numbers of spells that you can cast while raging eg this list of non verbal spells

Highlights are Heal, Jump, Invisibility, Shadow Projectile.

Notably, only one-action Heal, since the others add a verbal component.


Sample Build:

PinCushion
This Animal barbarian who prefers to tap into their plant side and become a real pin cushion. The secret is you have a spare hand so you hold a staff of healing and spam out lots of 1 action heals to buff your Vibrant Thorns.
Str 18 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 10
Basic equipment: Breastplate then Explorer’s Clothes when you take Animal Skin. Staff of Healing, Handwraps of Mighty Blows and LongBow.
Class Feats: Level 1: Sudden Charge, Level 2: Cleric maybe for Erastil, Level 4: Domain Initiate for Vibrant Thorns, Level 6: Basic Cleric Spellcasting (take Heal as you can cast it while raging) then later take Attack of Opportunity and Animal Skin when you can, Level 8: Furious Bully, Level 10:, Level 12: Embrace the Pain
Skills: Athletics, Stealth, …


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
JAMRenaissance wrote:


pixierose wrote:
While this is doable, I think it fails to do what I like most about the Bloodrager. A bloodrager imo should be able to have their rage or rage analogue work with the spell-casting. Moment of clarity kind of goes against that vibe, you are pausing the rage to do the magic stuff.

So take stuff that doesn't require Moment of Clarity. That's half of what took up time to write the guide - finding all of the stuff that could be cast on its own. Heal, Harm, Elemental Toss and Shadow Projectile are all great examples of spells that can be cast without Moment of Clarity.

To rephrase, Rage /DOES/ work with spellcasting. It doesn't work as well with /ALL/ spellcasting... and it shouldn't given balance issues.

The guides are neat at all, and it looks like it can be a fun time. But this does not imo, holistically create a bloodrager. It creates a barbarian that can kind of cast very specific spells. This took a lot of work to make and thats cool. But it just doesn't sell me as a bloodrager. I will admit it is good enough for what we have, but is still misses the mark for me.


I feel that it might be useful to highlight in the guide which spells merit serious consideration for in-combat use. There are many spells that only really have noncombat utility, spells that deal noncompetitive amounts of damage at the point you can cast them (in particular, ones that only work in melee or contribute to MAP), and spells that are rarely if ever going to be worth the actions to cast for a character that's primarily a melee beater. (There's nothing that makes a Barbarian particularly better or worse at using out-of-combat utility spells than any other martial character, but "Barbarian that can incidentally use Comprehend Language" doesn't seem to be the main concept the guide is pointing towards.)

These might technically be worth including in the guide, but currently they're crowding the small handful of spells that you'd seriously want to cast enough in combat as a Barbarian that you'd actually consider building around this concept. It might make sense to boldface or highlight in some way the spells that genuinely motivate such a build, or move them to their own sections.


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Obligatory shoutout to the Barbarians+ Bloodrager that I am currently playing and having good fun with. It's a wave caster centered around making yourself explode with AOE damage by casting spells, very cool and very different feel from a Magus.


Please enlighten a bit: should we wait for Paizo to release a Feat that allow a Barbarian to use Concentrate actions while Raging?

The Bloodrager's main gimmick is to cast spells while raging and it was similar with the Rage Prophet.

Right now, there's no way to achieve this, because Casting a Spell either have the Manipulate trait (Somatic, Material, Focus) or the Concentrate trait (Verbal). Most spells have both somatic and verbal components.


JiCi wrote:

Please enlighten a bit: should we wait for Paizo to release a Feat that allow a Barbarian to use Concentrate actions while Raging?

The Bloodrager's main gimmick is to cast spells while raging and it was similar with the Rage Prophet.

Right now, there's no way to achieve this, because Casting a Spell either have the Manipulate trait (Somatic, Material, Focus) or the Concentrate trait (Verbal). Most spells have both somatic and verbal components.

Look at it carefully.

Somatic components can be cast with your hands full. So not a problem apart from tirggering a potential AoO but that is uncommon so while not ideal but it is still tolerable.

Material components are not common. Normally only 3 action spells.

Verbal components require concentration. These are the most common and this is what rage stops.

There are a reasonable number of non verbal spells out there you can use. I mention these above. Check them out.


JiCi wrote:

Please enlighten a bit: should we wait for Paizo to release a Feat that allow a Barbarian to use Concentrate actions while Raging?

The Bloodrager's main gimmick is to cast spells while raging and it was similar with the Rage Prophet.

Right now, there's no way to achieve this, because Casting a Spell either have the Manipulate trait (Somatic, Material, Focus) or the Concentrate trait (Verbal). Most spells have both somatic and verbal components.

Indeed not being able to rely on spells with the verbal component is a huge nerf ( the majority if not all 2 actions spells are unavailable ).

I did a quick search not knowing the bloodrager class from 1e, and it seems the class was meant to give them up to lvl 4 spells ( with a slow progression ).

I am not sure whether they were offensive spells or defensive ones, but given how this 2e works in terms of spellcasting dedications, I wouldn't expect a martial combatant to make a good use of offensive spells through a dedication ( not talking about gishers that have their own spellcasting, obviously ).

Maybe a bloodrager archetype could have some way to make moment of clarity a free action ( I am not also sure whether with this 2e a barbarian still deserves not to be able to cast spells while raging. Isn't their rage just what makes them equal to other classes? Like the +2 from fighter, the rogue sneak attack, etc... ).

Dark Archive

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Arachnofiend wrote:
Obligatory shoutout to the Barbarians+ Bloodrager that I am currently playing and having good fun with. It's a wave caster centered around making yourself explode with AOE damage by casting spells, very cool and very different feel from a Magus.

Came here to also plug Barbarians+ (also I think the alchemical instinct is super awesome FYI incase folks are looking for something that plays as a self buffer vs. splash damage approach).

Fundamentally the bloodrager in 1e was just when I rage I cast a self buff spell. So you could homebrew a class that does that.

- 1D10
- Normal Rage feature damage is based on the spell you cast (look at bespell weapon for school to type)
- Bounded caster chassis + barbarians save progression
- When you rage for 1 or 2 actions you can cast a 1 or 2 action spell that targets self only.
- In class feats at 4/12/18 for L1-L8 spells per spell caster MC levels but only from the sorcerer bloodline list.
- Scale rage damage based on draconic instinct
- Select bloodlines from the sorcerer list.
- steal the magus's L7/11/13 studious spells class feature to give you some more slots of low level buffing.

Bloodragers did very little once raging with spells, so this way you get what you want. Arcane strike is basically the built in rage damage.


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Gortle wrote:

Thankyou for revisting this topic. It has made me see that there are a good numbers of spells that you can cast while raging eg this list of non verbal spells

Highlights are Heal, Jump, Invisibility, Shadow Projectile.

Oh god! I never noticed that Invisibility is Somatic + Material allowing barbarians to cast it!

Now my imagination goes wild with a Barbarian using a lvl 4 invisibility raging against its opponents! How scaring would be seeing creatures being onslaughted by a furious force of destruction while ear a scariest mix of furious screams with its victims cries of pain and horror!


JiCi wrote:

Please enlighten a bit: should we wait for Paizo to release a Feat that allow a Barbarian to use Concentrate actions while Raging?

The Bloodrager's main gimmick is to cast spells while raging and it was similar with the Rage Prophet.

Right now, there's no way to achieve this, because Casting a Spell either have the Manipulate trait (Somatic, Material, Focus) or the Concentrate trait (Verbal). Most spells have both somatic and verbal components.

In my experience with my one bloodrager Val Baine, the bloodrager's main gimmick is the bloodline powers. PF1 barbarian is more fun than PF1 fighter because the barbarian can get fantastic rage powers such as Dragon Totem Wings and Greater Spirit Totem attacking spirit wisps. The nature of the fighter limits them to trainable combat abilities. Bloodrager is even more outlandish than the barbarian, with their bloodline powers more blatantly magical.

HumbleGamer wrote:

Indeed not being able to rely on spells with the verbal component is a huge nerf ( the majority if not all 2 actions spells are unavailable ).

I did a quick search not knowing the bloodrager class from 1e, and it seems the class was meant to give them up to lvl 4 spells ( with a slow progression ).

I am not sure whether they were offensive spells or defensive ones, but given how this 2e works in terms of spellcasting dedications, I wouldn't expect a martial combatant to make a good use of offensive spells through a dedication ( not talking about gishers that have their own spellcasting, obviously ).

Maybe a bloodrager archetype could have some way to make moment of clarity a free action ( I am not also sure whether with this 2e a barbarian still deserves not to be able to cast spells while raging. Isn't their rage just what makes them equal to other classes? Like the +2 from fighter, the rogue sneak attack, etc... ).

Examples help for this analysis. The Val Baine example I have available is not a standard bloodrager, but here are her spells in PF1:

4th (2/day) Beast Shape II, Elemental Body I, Enervation, Greater Darkvision, Shocking Image
3rd (3/day) Burrow, Burst of Speed, Elemental Aura, Greater Magic Weapon, Heroism, Protection from Energy
2nd (4/day) Bullet Shield, Make Whole, Mirror Image, Resist Energy, Scorching Ray (electric), See Invisibility, Stone Discus
1st (5/day) Burning Hands (electric), Disguise Self, Expeditious Excavation, Mount, Mudball, Protection from Evil, Shield
Cantrips Detect Magic, Jolt, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Prestidigitation

The Burning Hands (Electric), Scorching ray (Electric), Protection from Energy, and Elemental body I were bonus spells from her Elemental Air Bloodline.

The cantrips, Disguise Self, Expeditious Excavation, Make Whole, and Greater Darkvision were from a homebrew archetype. The standard bloodrager spells did not fit the needs of a gunslinging bloodrager sidekick. Too many of those spells were about dealing damage and Val had no trouble dealing plenty of damage with her sword. Instead, Val preferred spells for defense, mobility, and utility. Many of those were cast outside of raging.

The 11th-level Greater Bloodrage ability, "In addition, upon entering a bloodrage, the bloodrager can apply the effects a bloodrager spell he knows of 2nd level or lower to himself. The spell must have a range of touch or personal. If the spell’s duration is greater than 1 round, it instead lasts for the duration of the bloodrage. This use consumes a bloodrager spell slot, as if he had cast the spell; he must have the spell slot available to take advantage of this effect," was the most fun in spellcasting for a bloodrager.

When I ported Val Baine over to PF2 with a homebrew Bloodline Instinct, her spell list became:
Bloodline Focus Spells DC 38, attack +28, 1 Focus Point; 8th elemental ammunition +8d6 electricity
Sorcerer Primal Spontaneous Spells DC 38, attack +28
7th (1/day) plane shift
6th (1/day) true seeing
5th (2/day) elemental form, soothing spring (5th)
4th (2/day) elemental gift, resist energy (4th)
3rd (2/day) blazing dive, nondetection
2nd (2/day) phantom steed (signature), mending (signature)
1st (2/day) burning hands (bludgeoned by wind, signature), expeditious excavation
Cantrips (8th) electric arc, light, prestidigitation

PF2 Val follows the primal tradition given by the sorcerous Elemental Air bloodline, so several spells such as Mirror Image and See Invisibility were beyond her tradition. She has 5th, 6th, and 7th level spells, but 5th-level Elemental Form replaceds her PF1 4th-level Elemental Body I and 6th-level True Seeing replaces her 2nd-level See Invisibility. PF2 Val is one level higher than PF1 Val, and the Plane Shift and Soothing Spring serve her new duties after the end of the Iron Gods campaign (she is the liaison between Kevoth-Kul, sovereign of Numeria, and the demiplane called the Godmind.). The Burning Hands variant is from her bloodline. I replaced the Elemental Toss bloodline focus spell with a homebrew spell called Elemental Ammunition that works with her firearm.

Note that PF1 Val can cast 14 non-cantrip spells per day and PF2 Val can cast 12 non-cantrip non-focus spells per day. PF2 Val has higher levels spells but fewer spells overall.


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HumbleGamer wrote:
JiCi wrote:

Please enlighten a bit: should we wait for Paizo to release a Feat that allow a Barbarian to use Concentrate actions while Raging?

The Bloodrager's main gimmick is to cast spells while raging and it was similar with the Rage Prophet.

Right now, there's no way to achieve this, because Casting a Spell either have the Manipulate trait (Somatic, Material, Focus) or the Concentrate trait (Verbal). Most spells have both somatic and verbal components.

Indeed not being able to rely on spells with the verbal component is a huge nerf ( the majority if not all 2 actions spells are unavailable ).

I did a quick search not knowing the bloodrager class from 1e, and it seems the class was meant to give them up to lvl 4 spells ( with a slow progression ).

I am not sure whether they were offensive spells or defensive ones, but given how this 2e works in terms of spellcasting dedications, I wouldn't expect a martial combatant to make a good use of offensive spells through a dedication ( not talking about gishers that have their own spellcasting, obviously ).

Maybe a bloodrager archetype could have some way to make moment of clarity a free action ( I am not also sure whether with this 2e a barbarian still deserves not to be able to cast spells while raging. Isn't their rage just what makes them equal to other classes? Like the +2 from fighter, the rogue sneak attack, etc... ).

4th level casters in PF1 focused could generally use any spell and were pretty much generalists. The system allowed low level damage and buffs spells to be competitive due to scaling with caster level. However, debuff spells were bad because the save was based on spell level. Bloodrager and casters in general also had plenty of ways to boost offensive spells.

Take for example 1st level Burning Hand. In PF2 its a 15-ft cone that deals 2d6 damage. In PF1 at level 1 its a 15-ft cone that deals 1d4 and at level 5 it deal 5d4. In PF2 you have to be a goblin or take Dangerous Sorcery to deal an extra 1 damage per spell level. In PF1 you can take Burning Amplification (make enemies catch on fire), Intensified (Increase max dice by 5 by increasing spell slot by 1), Blood Intensity (Intensified but use Str or Cha instead of flat 5, yes it does stack with rage increasing Str), Blood Havoc (Extra damage = # of dice), etc. So in the end a level 20 PF2 "Bloodrager" will not want to use a level 1 burning hand for 2d6+1 damage, a level 20 PF1 Bloodrager will want to use a level 1 burning hand for 15d6+15+1 extra round of rage 5+ times a day.

Even then as Mathmuse stated, what made Bloodrager good was their bloodlines which were all made to synergize with and/or require bloodrage. Bloodrager got some wild stuff, like Black Blooded actively negating positive energy healing on a crit.


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To expand on the last part since its a bit vague here is a relatively brief example of the type of stuff Bloodrager bloodlines could do:

Its a long list:

* Aberrant: on a crit the target must save or be staggered, tons of immunities including critical hits.
* Abyssal: claw attacks, rage is stronger, enlarge, AoE at the start of rage (you can rage cycle it).
* Arcane: Free buff spells, free haste/displacement, free shapeshifting, opposing lower level casters always provoke and and screwed.
* Destined: Can reroll a missed attack, DC20 Fort save to stay at 1 HP when you would die, easier time landing crits, enemies cannot crit you, cannot be staggered/dazed.
* Dragoconic: At will dragon transformation.
* Verdant: Can make nearby plants into soldiers, fast healing, bonus AC, damage those that hit you.
* Fey: Free blur, Haste, and Bane.
* Shapechanger: At will polymorph, immune to offensive polymorph, can remove harmful spells.
* Vestige: Free stance feat and enter as free action, can summon an army, can share the stance feat.
* Medusa: Can eventually use Flesh to Stone at will.

I didn't do all of them just the most clearly wild. Most of them granted some sort of immunity ot resistance. Many grant flight and extended limbs.

Some like Angelic, are much easier to replicate. But others like Salamander letting you cast Magic Weapon/Vestment at will, not so much.


Temperans wrote:

To expand on the last part since its a bit vague here is a relatively brief example of the type of stuff Bloodrager bloodlines could do:

** spoiler It's a long list omitted **
I didn't do all of them just the most clearly wild. Most of them granted some sort of immunity ot resistance. Many grant flight and extended limbs.

Some like Angelic, are much easier to replicate. But others like Salamander letting you cast Magic Weapon/Vestment at will, not so much.

Val Baine took a non-wild bloodline, Elemental with the Air element. I retroactively traded away the 1st-level bloodline power Elemental Strikes for a familiar at 7th level, because a little extra electrical damage felt insignificant during 6 levels. I also traded away the 4th- and 12th-level bloodline powers via the Primalist archetype, especially because the 12th-level Power of the Elements enhanced Elemental Strikes that Val no longer had. But the 8th-level bloodline power, Elemental Movement, was pure gold. It gave Val flying during a rage. The party already had a flying strix Kirii, so letting Val join Kirii in the air let Val play up her sidekick role. I chose Elemental Bloodline as the fastest route to flight; in contrast, Draconic Bloodline, Infernal Bloodline, and Phoenix Bloodline provide flight at 12th level.

Even a boring bloodline offers excitement under the right circumstances.


Doesn't the feat moment of clarity allow you to use actions with the concentrate trait. You can cast 1 or 2 action spells while raging. It'll cost you a feat and an action but you can do it.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I agree with bloodline powers being a main aspect, and imo the best bloodrager bloodlines went in a different direction than the sorcerer bloodlines of the same theme. Which I think is why I get a bit grumpy when everyone says, "just take sorcerer dedication" or just give them the focus spells. like just as an example, the arcane sorcerer in 1e poached a lot of vibes from wizards, getting arcane bonds and familiars, while an arcane bloodrager was sort of more about being a roving magical beast that shut-down other casters. The fey bloodrager was a speedy dervish of a naturey warrior, while the fey sorcerer was all about trickery with strong debuffs and invisibility shenanigans. And in some cases Bloodragers got bloodlines that the sorcerer didn't have access too,(and vice versa but that seems more obvious).

Some barbarian instincts come close to some bloodlines but imo they are a tad to focus on the martial and damage aspect which makes sense barbarians are martials all about damage boosts. A bloodrager should still have some damage boosts but their supernatural abilities(Not the mechanical term nessecarily) made for some more interesting options and features.

Radiant Oath

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I may not know much about theory, but I now sure as heck wanna try this!


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For me personally, 2E Barbarian Instincts feel like a poorly-conceived attempt to recreate the bloodlines of Bloodragers. There are so few Instinct-specific feats that the different instincts don't really feel much different from each other. Bloodrager bloodlines had much bigger differences between them. As a fan of the Bloodrager, I was bitterly disappointed with how samey all the Instincts felt.

Unfortunately, the result is that we'll never see a 2E Bloodrager, since that concept has already been implemented, albeit in a very superficial way, in the 2E Barbarian.

Liberty's Edge

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Speaking of my own experience, the differences between an Animal Barbarian and a Giant Barbarian are huge.


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Instincts are more like the Totem rage power chains in 1e than Bloodlines. They change quite a bit, but they aren't majorly different unless you invest more into them.


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Golurkcanfly wrote:
Instincts are more like the Totem rage power chains in 1e than Bloodlines. They change quite a bit, but they aren't majorly different unless you invest more into them.

Speaking off, Bloodrager could get totem powers.

So you could have a bloodrager with infernal bloodline and the celestial totem. Or any number of other extrange combinations.


Temperans wrote:
Golurkcanfly wrote:
Instincts are more like the Totem rage power chains in 1e than Bloodlines. They change quite a bit, but they aren't majorly different unless you invest more into them.

Speaking off, Bloodrager could get totem powers.

So you could have a bloodrager with infernal bloodline and the celestial totem. Or any number of other extrange combinations.

Yeah, Bloodrager was so much fun. I loved playing an Aberrant Bloodrager with a Wand of Long Arm. 15' reach anyone?


I know I'm late to the party, but marking this for interest, even though I can see how what's available (at least before Remastered comes out) really limits what you can make of Bloodragers/Rage Prophets.


I personally would actually like to see bloodrager replace Eldritch Scion as the sorcerer subclass of the magus and add a special rage-based spellstrike mechanic


I’m amazed how two people mentioned Barbarians+ without linking it, like everyone knows what it is or that it is a 3rd party product.


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Moment of Clarity doesn't work very well for the Bloodrager. They could use a real barbarian instinct or archetype for this.


Deriven Firelion wrote:
Moment of Clarity doesn't work very well for the Bloodrager. They could use a real barbarian instinct or archetype for this.

Actually, that's a solid idea. An instinct that has a special kind of rage that allows for spell casting and maybe grants a few cantrips and 1st level spells.

Liberty's Edge

Claxon wrote:
Deriven Firelion wrote:
Moment of Clarity doesn't work very well for the Bloodrager. They could use a real barbarian instinct or archetype for this.
Actually, that's a solid idea. An instinct that has a special kind of rage that allows for spell casting and maybe grants a few cantrips and 1st level spells.

Something similar to the Elemental Instinct ?


The Raven Black wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Deriven Firelion wrote:
Moment of Clarity doesn't work very well for the Bloodrager. They could use a real barbarian instinct or archetype for this.
Actually, that's a solid idea. An instinct that has a special kind of rage that allows for spell casting and maybe grants a few cantrips and 1st level spells.
Something similar to the Elemental Instinct ?

Yeah, something similar would be good. But I do think that the concept of "casting spells of one elemental is allowed" is too narrow for the "bloodrager" instinct. I think whatever spell list they get (and maybe we just specify arcane) they should be able to cast all spells from it as though they had the rage trait. And be able to substitute weapon movements for somatic components. But I also know those got reworked (but I don't recall how) so maybe that part isn't relevant anymore.


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Claxon wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Deriven Firelion wrote:
Moment of Clarity doesn't work very well for the Bloodrager. They could use a real barbarian instinct or archetype for this.
Actually, that's a solid idea. An instinct that has a special kind of rage that allows for spell casting and maybe grants a few cantrips and 1st level spells.
Something similar to the Elemental Instinct ?
Yeah, something similar would be good. But I do think that the concept of "casting spells of one elemental is allowed" is too narrow for the "bloodrager" instinct. I think whatever spell list they get (and maybe we just specify arcane) they should be able to cast all spells from it as though they had the rage trait. And be able to substitute weapon movements for somatic components. But I also know those got reworked (but I don't recall how) so maybe that part isn't relevant anymore.

The only spells needing free hands are ones with a locus, which so far is just planar travel spells. (Oh, and Slashing Wind, but that specifically calls out free hands instead of being it being a spellcasting thing.)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Now, if someone found a way to make the 1E Skald in PF2E, I might be able to at least pitch a 2E Hell's Rebels change to one of my groups... although they still wouldn't take it, probably, since I got two guys in there who are pretty firmly anti-2E.


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magnuskn wrote:
Now, if someone found a way to make the 1E Skald in PF2E, I might be able to at least pitch a 2E Hell's Rebels change to one of my groups... although they still wouldn't take it, probably, since I got two guys in there who are pretty firmly anti-2E.

I tried. I posted the PF1 strix skald Kirii from my Iron Gods campaign ported to PF2 in my old thread: Skald Kirii ported to PF2. Making a proper PF2 skald required a new class, not just an barbarian Instinct nor a bard Muse and especially not just tacking on an archetype. I tired out while developing the class and settled for making just the parts that Kirii would use.

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