| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Title says it all.
Goblin Squad Member
|
Displaying my ignorange: what group bonus currently applies in PvE?
Won't gushers, requiring a group effort to harvest lots of resources, effectively provide a group bonus? I also thought it had been said that when we get gushers, the normal node gathering will be less productive than it is now. Gushers (group gathering events) are intended to provide a good chunk of our resources.
(Formation combat may likewise effectively provide a group bonus to PvP.)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
We have no real idea how long it is going to take for gushers to be a thing. Personally, I think that they should literally be the top priority. I think that they are going to fix a lot of the issues I have with the game (People have relatively little reason to group unless doing T2 escalations).
Until then, I do think that something that incentives gatherers to be out in a group would be a good thing. Come next patch they won't really need the protection force that they do now.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
TBH, how would gathering in a group look like right now? Constantly running towards the same node? Or fan out and each do a quadrant of the hex but lose the safety of the group? Or each gets a certain node-type appointed and then stand idly by because your node is not that ubiquitous?
I can barely find nodes fast enough solo to not get bored already.
Even with Savage's proposal, it still seems hard to make this into an efficient group effort. The rewards would at least be bigger.
Gushers do sound a lot better, though I am curious what the group actually is needed for: to protect, to haul of the goods or also to actually deplete the gusher faster and more efficient in a team-effort? Just tagging along so you can carry part of the load does not sound that interesting. Nor does Guarding, unless the gusher already has been found and you know there are enemies in the area. That is when it certainly becomes a group-exercise.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I like the idea.
What kind of benefit were you thinking of? One possibility would be a variable + to effective gathering skills, maxing out for a party of six.
It might need to have a maximum range, too. PvE parties tend to stick close together, in order to fight more effectively. Gathering parties have less need to stay close to each other, especially if multiple people in the party want to harvest the same type of nodes. Without a maximum range, a gathering party could wind up spread across several hexes.
@Tyncale
The group doesn't have to be all gatherers. We already group sometimes with no gathering bonus. The gatherers fan out for nodes, while the "guards" kill monsters for their (group bonus) loot while exposing the nodes the monsters camp.
I'm just saying its goofy that gatherers don't get the same bonus for grouping that the guards get.
All suggestions that I just want large groups of gatherers to be holding 30% more resources on their husks when I loot them are scurrilous unfounded rumors. ;-)
Displaying my ignorange: what group bonus currently applies in PvE?
I can't find the posts explaining it, but there is something like a 25% better loot chance in a full party of 6.
I'm under the impression that gushers will attract monsters. Thus gusher guards will probably fill their bags with delicious (group bonus) monster loot.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
The group doesn't have to be all gatherers. We already group sometimes with no gathering bonus. The gatherers fan out for nodes, while the "guards" kill monsters for their (group bonus) loot while exposing the nodes the monsters camp.
If the gatherers are near the guards when the mob is killed, they are getting the bonus loot just for being there. The "bonus" is actually a lower chance per person, but a higher chance per group, so if gatherers were treated the same, some nodes would have less (or even nothing) in them, while some would have more. Each gatherer would come away with less than if they were alone, but the group would get more in total. Since the chance of more than two items per node is starting lower than the chance of loot, I suspect treating gathering the same would actually be a hindrance.
The group doesn't have to be all gatherers. We already group sometimes with no gathering bonus. The gatherers fan out for nodes, while the "guards" kill monsters for their (group bonus) loot while exposing the nodes the monsters camp.If the gatherers are near the guards when the mob is killed, they are getting the bonus loot just for being there. The "bonus" is actually a lower chance per person, but a higher chance per group, so if gatherers were treated the same, some nodes would have less (or even nothing) in them, while some would have more. Each gatherer would come away with less than if they were alone, but the group would get more in total. Since the chance of more than two items per node is starting lower than the chance of loot, I suspect treating gathering the same would actually be a hindrance.
Hmm, Yeah, I hadn't considered that a group shares a chance at monster loot but doesn't share gathering.
I wonder if gathering was shared, whether I'd be told to stop because I was weighing the party down. :-)
I'm going to have to dwell on this.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
TBH, how would gathering in a group look like right now? Constantly running towards the same node? Or fan out and each do a quadrant of the hex but lose the safety of the group? Or each gets a certain node-type appointed and then stand idly by because your node is not that ubiquitous?
When I'm bumping up against my allies that are gathering, I check to see what type of nodes they're gathering.
If we are gathering the same type of node, I ask to split the hex in half, or thirds, whatever. The number of nodes of a given type remains constant for that hex and nodes respawn instantly when cleared. With 2 harvesters, each only has to sweep their half of the hex rather than making complete circuits, so less time (individually) to thoroughly check your zone for nodes. I think up to six gatherers in a hex would be pretty easy to manage, but it might depend on the node density.
Yes, your buddies aren't in view, but if one gets hit by an attacker, the others can rabbit - or all jump in on the attackers, depending on the numbers.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
If the gatherers are near the guards when the mob is killed, they are getting the bonus loot just for being there. The "bonus" is actually a lower chance per person, but a higher chance per group, so if gatherers were treated the same, some nodes would have less (or even nothing) in them, while some would have more. Each gatherer would come away with less than if they were alone, but the group would get more in total. Since the chance of more than two items per node is starting lower than the chance of loot, I suspect treating gathering the same would actually be a hindrance.
I'm confused. Are you suggesting that party members who don't kill any monsters might have monster loot appear in their inventory? I didn't think the bonus worked that way.
My understanding is that the KILLING shot gets the kill and a chance at loot gets spread across all members of the party that got the killing shot.
Each party member gets (a chance at?) INDIVIDUALIZED random loot and those with a higher knowledge skill in the appropriate category are rolling on a "better" loot table.
Your character doesn't have to get the killing blow, to get loot, if you are the only group fighting the monsters.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@KarlBob, sure. When a party kills a mob, the loot goes to a random party member, not the person who lands the killing blow. (That's how the healer gets her share.)
Wild. I don't know how I missed that fact, but I did. I thought we were still getting loot only for our own kills, but with better chances at good stuff.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I don't know how I missed that fact, but I did. I thought we were still getting loot only for our own kills, but with better chances at good stuff.
It's the reverse. Your own chance of getting loot is lower, but your party gets more in total.
The approximate math for your share is [base+25%]/[number-in-party]+[your bonuses]*
* That was stated for a party of six. I don't know if the 25% is flat regardless of party size, or scaled.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
My understanding is that the KILLING shot gets the kill and a chance at loot gets spread across all members of the party that got the killing shot.
Each party member gets (a chance at?) INDIVIDUALIZED random loot and those with a higher knowledge skill in the appropriate category are rolling on a "better" loot table.
Your character doesn't have to get the killing blow, to get loot, if you are the only group fighting the monsters.
Did you mean "the KILLING shot gets the kill and a chance at loot gets spread across all members of the party that" damaged the mob? There's no way for more than one person to get the killing shot.
Edit: I understand now. You meant all members of 'the party that got the killing shot', but I read it as all 'members of the party' that got the killing shot.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
My understanding is the game looks at which character got the killing shot. If that character is in a group, for loot purposes the game behaves as if the GROUP got the killing shot (even if the other 5 members were busy building a dwarf pyramid).
Then it applies whatever math others described above to reward loot.
Darn, now I'm going to have to test this to be sure it's true.
Hey Guurzak, could you handle that Mordant Spire pack while the rest of your group builds a pyramid? Thanks buddy.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
The killing shot gets credit towards the weapon, but the party gets credit for the creature and the loot.
So if you deliver the death blow to a wolf with a longsword, only you get the "+1 longsword kill," but everyone gets the "+1 wolf kill"
And each member of the party stands a chance of receiving one wolf's worth of loot.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
My understanding is the game looks at which character got the killing shot. If that character is in a group, the game behaves as if the GROUP got the killing shot (even if the other 5 members were busy building a dwarf pyramid).
As above, everyone in the party (who's in range at the time of the kill) gets an achievement credit for the creature, but only the killer gets an achievement credit for the weapon type.
A party killing undead is the absolute best chance for a cleric to get their "divine" achievements.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And each member of the party stands a chance of receiving one wolf's worth of loot.
Yes. With each person's chance lower than normal, but the group's chance higher than normal. A party of six that kills 40 mobs of 4 wolves (160) should in total get about the same loot as if one person had killed 200 wolves.
We should discuss if we'd like gathering to be handled in the same manner.
It will at least expose which gatherers are selfish. :-)
But for communist settlements, it would be a handy way of spreading the load around the group.
It really is sort of odd that groups share monster loot and NOT gathered resources.
Side note: I'm using "mob" in the old MUD sense of "mobile object", not "group of enemies". I like to use "mob" instead of "monster" because so many of our PVE enemies are humans, not fantasy critters.
Yeah, I was shying away from using "mobs", but as long as we clearly use some other word (e.g. PACKS) to describe groups of enemies, that'd be cool.
Of course, then someone will think I'm referring to bags or inventory. :-)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
It really is sort of odd that groups share monster loot and NOT gathered resources.
Personally, I think it's a completely different mechanic. Maybe if multiple gatherers could work on the same node, but in general, one person "works" the node, and nobody else has any input into assisting.
I'd prefer to see fewer nodes, a lot fewer. Then, instead of finding 50 small nodes with a total of 200 "units" (2-10 per) in them, we might find five large nodes with forty units each, that several people could harvest. Someone with no skill might pull 2 units/thirty seconds, while a higher skilled individual could pull 10/30s. As such, a skilled harvester could strip a node by themselves in 2-3 minutes, while 4 unskilled harvesters might take 5 or 10 minutes to clear it and one could spend 15 minutes on a single node, getting a new take window for 2 (random appropriate) units every thirty seconds unless they walk away and cancel.
In an argument over such a node, it might take a long time before anyone got to clean it completely, and animations could include the character moving around the node.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Shared chances of getting resources from each node harvested by the party could become a bad thing, in some cases. For example, some of the guards are wearing plate armor. Some of the gatherers are harvesting iron and coal. Iron starts popping up in the plate-wearers' inventory, and encumbrance problems follow soon after.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Side note: I'm using "mob" in the old MUD sense of "mobile object", not "group of enemies". I like to use "mob" instead of "monster" because so many of our PVE enemies are humans, not fantasy critters.Yeah, I was shying away from using "mobs", but as long as we clearly use some other word (e.g. PACKS) to describe groups of enemies, that'd be cool.
Of course, then someone will think I'm referring to bags or inventory. :-)
Maybe I'll just make my peace with calling a bandit or a wolf a "monster", and let "mob" mean the same as "group".
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
if the formula is : (base+5*(size-1))/size (minus the 'your_bonuses' part), it looks like a 6-party should more-than-double the individual loot chance on very low level mobs (the 2% loot chance range) !! ??
I must be wrong somewhere ...
The breakeven point where each member of a 6-man party gets more individual loot than a solo is when the monster drop rate is 5%. I don't believe any monsters have drop rates anywhere near that low; most are in the 40-60% range. (He had to drop some monsters with very high drop rates down to 66% so that the math didn't break on the high end.)
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
There's no such point. It's 5% increase in dropped items, not a 5% increase to drop rate percentage.
In a full group, you get 1/6 of 125% of what you would get alone, or just above 20% each. If you go through mobs six times as fast in the full group, you will get 125% of solo per unit time.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
My experience:
You kill faster on your own. BUT
there are monsters and groups of monsters your are unable to kill on your own.
So bandits and low level white mobs - get some good armour and mow them down. No need to wait for comrades, tactics, someone who died etc.
So killing white groups (apart of the goblin shamans) is more efficient solo.
I still have not a single tier 2 recipe that I ever got - this is where I want to go as a group.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
For Reference:
I don't know if it's in now. It'll be in whenever Paul's changes on Friday afternoon get in.
The formula for the chance to drop any item on the loot table is:
([Base Chance]/[Group Size]) * (95% + [Group Size] x 5%) * (1 + [Relevant Skill Total]/600)
So if you have an item with a 60% drop chance, a group of 6, and everyone has maxed out skills, they'd each have a drop chance equal to:
(60%/6) * (95% + 30%) * (1 + 300/600)
10% * 125% * 150%
18.75%
Which is nearly twice as much loot, on average, than if one person with minimal skill had killed the thing. Each individual person only has a third the base drop chance, but overall the amount of loot given out went up dramatically.
We cap the chances at 100% for anything. So if you think something has a very high drop rate and your high knowledge skill is going to waste by pushing it over 100%, bring a friend.
(Very few things have a drop rate over 66% such that high skill will guarantee capping out the drop chance.)
|
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
@Guurzak :
I saw the breakeven at 5%, but I remember a post (one about knowledge skills ?) where Ryan Dancey (I think) was talking of min 2.67% drop rate ...@Decius :
I got your point, in a party means less individual loot but faster killing, so it's a global increase. Still have some questions :
- what if a 2 or 3 members party ?
- for a low-power flower-eater like me, does really 6 members party means 6 times faster killing ?
In an X member party, your loot chance per kill is multiplied by (1+.05X)/X, for every mob that someone in your party delivers killing blow on, provided that you are nearby at the time.
If your group isn't any faster than a smaller group in terms of mobs/hour (for example, if you are overpowered and spend almost all your time moving from encounter to encounter, just like you would as several solo characters acting independently) then your personal yield per time will be lower. If you clear encounters enough faster (like if you don't have to kite because your party can handle all of them at once), or if you can't clear the mobs at all solo, then your personal yield per time will be higher.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
We should discuss if we'd like gathering to be handled in the same manner.
It will at least expose which gatherers are selfish. :-)
But for communist settlements, it would be a handy way of spreading the load around the group.
It really is sort of odd that groups share monster loot and NOT gathered resources.
Gathering is already 100% loot for zero risk; it should not be handled in the same manner as PVE, because it does not use the same loot mechanics at all.
Honestly, I believe your bonus idea may be designed to enable zero-gathering-skill PVP builds to gather more efficiently, (perhaps by grouping with one high skill character)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Gathering is already 100% loot for zero risk; it should not be handled in the same manner as PVE, because it does not use the same loot mechanics at all.
Honestly, I believe your bonus idea may be designed to enable zero-gathering-skill PVP builds to gather more efficiently, (perhaps by grouping with one high skill character)
ZERO RISK? Ask Grumpf about how little risk there is in mining coal. LOL
My mates call my fellow gatherers "mobile nodes" for a reason. Though the risk may be completely dependent on which way the devs are swinging the rep pendulum that week. Maybe next week it will feel like zero risk, we'll see. I and my friends have certainly been making sure it wasn't risk free for people last week, though.
As to your last paragraph... I'm a tier 2 gatherer and way too far away from tier 3 to benefit from a boost up the table. I was just imagining MORE resources (and thus more efficient use of my time), not BETTER resources when I first posted this.
And one can argue that groups that are hunting face LESS risk (from mobs) than solo hunters, so why would they deserve a bonus... except for the same reason ANY group bonuses exist... to encourage social interactions.
I don't think the group bonus is about RISK at all, though the devs might correct me on that.
The bonus would also make up for the fact that gatherers can't help but get in each other's way, so the bonus offsets the temptation to try and have the hex entirely to yourself.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
The bonus would also make up for the fact that gatherers can't help but get in each other's way.....
This is definitely something I've ran into because I can't always remember which nodes a companion has visited. (Let alone remember which one's I have visited!) Though having the node disappear after harvesting a bit faster would solve that issue.
The concept of a group bonus for gathering is certainly an interesting one.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Gathering is already 100% loot for zero risk; it should not be handled in the same manner as PVE, because it does not use the same loot mechanics at all.
Honestly, I believe your bonus idea may be designed to enable zero-gathering-skill PVP builds to gather more efficiently, (perhaps by grouping with one high skill character)
ZERO RISK? Ask Grumpf about how little risk there is in mining coal. LOL
My mates call my fellow gatherers "mobile nodes" for a reason. Though the risk may be completely dependent on which way the devs are swinging the rep pendulum that week. Maybe next week it will feel like zero risk, we'll see. I and my friends have certainly been making sure it wasn't risk free for people last week, though.
As to your last paragraph... I'm a tier 2 gatherer and way too far away from tier 3 to benefit from a boost up the table. I was just imagining MORE resources (and thus more efficient use of my time), not BETTER resources when I first posted this.
And one can argue that groups that are hunting face LESS risk (from mobs) than solo hunters, so why would they deserve a bonus... except for the same reason ANY group bonuses exist... to encourage social interactions.
I don't think the group bonus is about RISK at all, though the devs might correct me on that.
The bonus would also make up for the fact that gatherers can't help but get in each other's way, so the bonus offsets the temptation to try and have the hex entirely to yourself.
fine, Zero increased risk. It's still just picking up money lying on the ground, not picking a fight.
If there's people tempted to kill off other gatherers, a gatherer group bonus just moves that temptation up to the company level...I see more value in getting rid of all group bonuses. To keep people out in the field and interacting more.
FWIW. I have never felt crowded by fellow gatherers. (as a miner)
When I do see someone, I make way, and I have no trouble filling my encumbrance bar in what seems like a short time, maybe it's 30 minutes? Point being, as a miner, I've always seen more nodes than I can pick up. Maybe people should move around the map more.
ps
@WxCougar If you can tab target a node, it is not depleted
|
I'd like to see a Freeholder feat that would need to be sloted on the action bar that lets multiple PC's loot a harvesting node at the same time, and share results. Something like each harvester gets loot roll equivalent to something like 101%-120% of what could normally be harvested from the node split evenly between all players who participate.
Grey the action out for all PCs unless they are within harvesting range of a node, as well as at least 1 other PC. Give the ability something like a 3 second setup before the PCs start their normal "looting animation" for X time or even maybe an emote to let other players nearby that they can "join" the group harvest.