My biggest disappointment, so far...


Pathfinder Online


95% of the playerbase has fewer kills than Ryan. :-)

Actually, some stats would be interesting.

Goblin Squad Member

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I have many, many kills on my conto. I never really understand why players keep huddling around these campfires all the time though. Come on guys, this isn't a chatroom.

Also, roll an Elf for a change, all these humans, sheesh.

Goblin Squad Member

Is having to read/listen to all the non stop b+*$*ing and moaning from people who won't listen, won't read, won't reasearch, won't engage in conversation, feel entitiled (I want it all now, with no effort required) and constantly declare this game a failure and waste of time.

AKA Themepark MMO Players (the bad kind) :)


I don't think I've run across any of those types of players yet (in game, anyway).

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

A high percentage of the player base (so far) is more interested in PVE, trade, and politics than PVP. Don't worry, the great mass of PVP fans will find this game eventually.


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It will help when the PvP is more compelling and meaningful.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Yes, it will.

I'm confident GW will get there eventually.

Goblin Squad Member

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KarlBob wrote:
A high percentage of the player base (so far) is more interested in PVE, trade, and politics than PVP. Don't worry, the great mass of PVP fans will find this game eventually.

There is not a huge advantage to a PvP player being in a no-xp cap game super early. Your current char may get a nice headstart on stats and excel at solo PvP compared to later players but most of the early game will be grindy and getting gear is a chore. Its worth playing early but not essential to be in on day one or in alpha.

On the other hand if your motivation is to be a big frog in the political puddle or dominate map wide trade getting in early is essential. The successful settlements over the first few years will be the ones that had leaders that were super active even in Alpha.

Goblin Squad Member

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The game is in its infancy and I feel for the players that are more combat oriented. If I was a PvP person I would hold off for a while. It really is a crafting sim currently, with some PvP sprinkled over it.

Settlements are non-entities still, no DI, no Company-influence, no PoI's yet that actually mean something to the Company that is holding them, no Feuds, no Wars, no Sieges, no juicy Wagon and Mule trains with goodies driving down the road, no Alignment or Factions, no Couriers hurrying down the road on their Fast Travel horse that you can try to shoot off or put up a blind for.

I think this is how it should be currently, build and strife will come. There is no other way, imo. Even with no rep-loss, there is just too little to fight over. Not enough structure yet.

Goblin Squad Member

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Savage Grace wrote:

95% of the playerbase has fewer kills than Ryan. :-)

Actually, some stats would be interesting.

While a "pvp leaderboard" might sound like a good thing, it would promote unmotivated ganking.

[insert invitation for Bluddwolf to argue that the wording 'unmotivated ganking' is erroneous and getting on the leaderbord is a valid motivation].

That said, some random stats would be fun indeed. Anything from what weapon training is most popular, to percentage of players who customize their clothing colours, to how many rock vs trash nodes harvested last 7 days. We're suckers for statistics. We like it almost as much as math.


The devs are really busy, but *if* their database is the way I imagine it, it would be 10 minutes work to write a query that looks at each character's Player Killer Achievement and counted how many players have more kills than Ryan.

I think that presenting it in the forums (you know that whole business writing professionalism thing) would actually take more time than writing the query.


Tyncale wrote:

The game is in its infancy and I feel for the players that are more combat oriented. If I was a PvP person I would hold off for a while. It really is a crafting sim currently, with some PvP sprinkled over it.

Settlements are non-entities still, no DI, no Company-influence, no PoI's yet that actually mean something to the Company that is holding them, no Feuds, no Wars, no Sieges, no juicy Wagon and Mule trains with goodies driving down the road, no Alignment or Factions, no Couriers hurrying down the road on their Fast Travel horse that you can try to shoot off or put up a blind for.

I think this is how it should be currently, build and strife will come. There is no other way, imo. Even with no rep-loss, there is just too little to fight over. Not enough structure yet.

I don't think that anyone who wants to be serious about this game (PvP or otherwise) should be holding off. You've GOT to be experiencing all this to be an effective player (and an effective playah), even if parts of the game aren't compelling, yet.

Who the hell wants to walk in next year and be handed a scorecard of who's who and what to expect... compared to having watched all this go down and KNOWING all these fools and fiends.

Heck, I already feel like I missed out by not being in alpha until the last few weeks.

Goblin Squad Member

Savage Grace wrote:
Tyncale wrote:

The game is in its infancy and I feel for the players that are more combat oriented. If I was a PvP person I would hold off for a while. It really is a crafting sim currently, with some PvP sprinkled over it.

Settlements are non-entities still, no DI, no Company-influence, no PoI's yet that actually mean something to the Company that is holding them, no Feuds, no Wars, no Sieges, no juicy Wagon and Mule trains with goodies driving down the road, no Alignment or Factions, no Couriers hurrying down the road on their Fast Travel horse that you can try to shoot off or put up a blind for.

I think this is how it should be currently, build and strife will come. There is no other way, imo. Even with no rep-loss, there is just too little to fight over. Not enough structure yet.

I don't think that anyone who wants to be serious about this game (PvP or otherwise) should be holding off. You've GOT to be experiencing all this to be an effective player (and an effective playah), even if parts of the game aren't compelling, yet.

Who the hell wants to walk in next year and be handed a scorecard of who's who and what to expect... compared to having watched all this go down and KNOWING all these fools and fiends.

Heck, I already feel like I missed out by not being in alpha until the last few weeks.

But...you are basically saying that if you are not in the game from now on, don't bother.

I also think that a player that starts 2 years from now, will be more easily raking in the kills, then the people that are now playing in the first 12 months. Very low playerbase, Feuds and Wars not in yet, and so forth.

I think early Crafters are actually the ones that get to show off their status of "Ancient One" by having a high Crafting skill already when the masses start pouring in (oh, if this could be true).

I could also be misunderstanding you. Are you talking about server-firsts?


No, I just meant people who are going through PFO now will have a deeper understanding of the personalities and organizations, which I think is far more important.

You might be overestimating the esteem that crafters will hold.

Perhaps it is my Eve upbringing (where industrialists are largely treated like dirt. You need dirt, but you don't venerate it.).

I picture PvPers next year just being handed whatever gear they can use, and having it replaced by GRPs (Gear Replacement Programs).

Crafting will have little meaning to them because everything is free, just for showing up and PvPing.

You may picture crafters selling their wares dearly and being tycoons. I picture them as just another cog in the machine that claws for survival and dominance.

Imagine that you're a tier 3 crafter and want to sell your stuff at huge profits. But the people who control your training demand you do it all gratis or no settlement for you. Maybe they even expect you to contribute some of your own resources to the war effort.

That could quickly be the standard, and the real venerated heroes are the folks who alarm-clock CTAs (Call To Arms).

But regardless, my main point was that I'd want to know what I'm learning about the folks I share a map with.


Tyncale wrote:


But...you are basically saying that if you are not in the game from now on, don't bother.

The corollary to that would be that *I* shouldn't have bothered, because I got into alpha so late.

But you are interpreting me poorly (or I wasn't writing clearly). I just mean that the sooner someone gets in, the better off they'll be. Not just for the xp, but for experiencing the trials and tribulations.

I'd be better off if I had discovered this game the first day of kickstarter. But we do what we can whenever we *do* finally discover treasures.

Goblin Squad Member

There is one difference between industrialist in EVE and Crafters in PFO. Crafters will need to specialize and rely on a network of other people to provide goods.

In EVE I ran a profitable T2 production with 2 to 3 characters. I would say I was at least 75% self sufficient. That is I was able to manage the whole supply chain from resource gathering to transport and selling of final product with just 1 character. The seconded help with additional resource gathering, the third just opened up a few more bandwidth in production. The only things I could not produce in house were raw moon mining materials.

Now for time reasons I would purchase some additional resources that I felt were not worth my time to harvest myself.

In PFO, you may see a T2 crafter with maybe one T2 refining skill and the feeding T2 gathering. But all crafts require 3 or more refining skills.

T3 crafters will most likely not have any other T3 refining or gathering skills.

So a single character would be very limited in production if they wanted to control their whole supply chain.

Right now, I suspect most settlements are putting in place some time of BYO-Resource program, or setting internal prices at material costs. I really doubt any settlement will offer a full GRP for anything above T1, and even then, many T1 materials are still needed for higher Tiers (Coal is needed for T2 metals)

Goblin Squad Member

I do not see crafters as much more then a cog in the wheel too. Same with Combatants though. Each of them can not do much without the other. Not sure how that is in Eve. But I think a high level crafter will have slightly more appeal to any (benevolent) dictator or leader though then the serb you make him out to be.

Gifted Craftsmen and Traders usually have high esteem in most societies. And so do the Heroes that go to battle and gain victory. I guess the disconnect to how this works with Gamers is because every PvP-er immediately considers himself one such Hero and Adept. But are you? Or are you just a player that "likes PvP" but unfortunately not that useful on the battlefield; oh well?

I will pay my respect if you are a great Fighter. I expect the same though if I can really mean something for my Settlement in the "building" department.

As to interpreting wrongly, I would wish we could have this conversation in my native tongue but nobody speaks Dutch here.

Goblin Squad Member

In PFO a "combat" character will require the resources of at least 3 crafting professions (a weapon, implement, and armor) as well as 4 or 5 different refining professions to feed those crafting professions.

So one character will require the skills of about at least half a dozen other characters.

On the other side, crafters and refiners can most likely support at most a dozen other characters in the supply chain. Gathering will most likely be done as a side task for most characters. A few characters will be fully dedicated to gathering full time.

For the most part, I expect that even the largest settlements will have at least 1/3 of their population as dedicated crafters with everyone else at the very least providing resources and a good number of part time crafting characters.

So I expect to see a good balance between crafters and adventurers. And a fairly decent level of respect overall between the two.


Well, there's no way for a crafter to really distinguish themselves.

There's no amount of movement, mousing, activating combos, watching the screen, listening to orders, etc. that lets you excel in crafting, nor can you fall flat on your face crafting poorly.

Granted, every warrior isn't elite, but each of them has the potential for greatness.

But I will grant you that, on average, warriors will be...

average. :-)

Goblin Squad Member

Ahh, but crafters *can* excel: money. The best crafters won't be known for making good gear, they'll be known for making small mountains of money. A good crafter will find a way to make more gear faster and cheaper than their opposition. A bad crafter will run out of cash and be pushed from the market.

Goblin Squad Member

Savage Grace wrote:

I picture PvPers next year just being handed whatever gear they can use, and having it replaced by GRPs (Gear Replacement Programs).

Crafting will have little meaning to them because everything is free, just for showing up and PvPing.

The reverse of this, is that PVPers are just peons that kill what they are told, when they are told to, otherwise the gear spigot gets shut off and they become useless.


Gaskon wrote:
Savage Grace wrote:

I picture PvPers next year just being handed whatever gear they can use, and having it replaced by GRPs (Gear Replacement Programs).

Crafting will have little meaning to them because everything is free, just for showing up and PvPing.

The reverse of this, is that PVPers are just peons that kill what they are told, when they are told to, otherwise the gear spigot gets stuff off and they become useless.

"Mongo just pawn in great chessboard of life."

-Blazing Saddles


TEO Alexander Damocles wrote:
Ahh, but crafters *can* excel: money. The best crafters won't be known for making good gear, they'll be known for making small mountains of money. A good crafter will find a way to make more gear faster and cheaper than their opposition. A bad crafter will run out of cash and be pushed from the market.

They'd better hide those mountains of money from their settlement leaders.

Settlement leaders can tax 98% of that away for access to training and facilities.

I'm saying no one is allowed to excel anymore than their settlement leaders allow them to.

My Eve experience suggests to me which direction things will go.

But enjoy your utopian fantasy while I dwell on what I consider the likely outcome of present and planned game mechanics based on the most similar game.

We can bookmark this for reference 3 years from now to see who was right.

In Eve everyone is space rich, but the richest industrialist I've met isn't rich because he's an industrialist. He's rich because he is (was?) a CEO of an industrialist corp and shared command of a sov alliance and thus had unfettered access to moon-goo. Leadership is the surest path to wealth.

Goblin Squad Member

If a settlement decides to tax them that heavily, they'll either move to another settlement or found their own. A settlement that overtaxes their citizens will see their tax base shrink and income go down.


And the rich settlement leaders will be the ones who strike the best balance. But I'm betting you see leaders be MUCH richer than crafters.

Goblin Squad Member

The creation of items is done by the game, however the preparation requires some effort, a little math and organizing. That is just the crafting part. The gathering actually requires a few skills, lest you turn into a mobile node for Midnight every time.

So knowledge where to gather, at the right time, be aware of the political landscape, watch your minimap, be sure you can make a run for it, decide to go back at an opportune time. Currently this requires not much more skill then "note to self, do not gather in golgotha's hexes", but this will get more complex.

Then you have the Market: this involves Trading on the AH, knowing which goods to sell where and then Transport. The last is supposed to be BIG in PFO. It is a make or break feature imo. A crafter will want to *move* his goods, unless he is part of the Golgotha Borg-collective off course. Then it goes straight to what I can only think of as the humongous Goblin King in The Hobbit.

Moving goods will be the biggest challenge imo, and many will probably never rise to this level. You will need friends, contacts, social skills, a deep knowledge of the politcal landscape and lots and lots of silver coin.

I am thinking we are reaching CTA-levels here, if you want to send out that caravan with the right goods on the right time, with the right precautions, in order to make that huge kill...

Not saying that will be me, but a player like that will earn my respect.

Edit: I agree that the leaders of a Settlement will probably be among the richest of all players. I am sure most will be crafters/builders/strategists btw. Most likely they suck at direct PvP.

Goblin Squad Member

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Savage Grace wrote:
Settlement leaders can tax 98% of that away for access to training and facilities.

I'm pretty sure that settlement leaders will not have the power to tax players differently based on their assets. If they tax everyone in the settlement at 98%, they will have a very tiny settlement of people who had no money in the first place, because it was all hidden on 1000xp alts that don't need training.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

I never had much luck with gear replacement/loss reimbursement programs in EVE. There was always some reason I didn't qualify for replacement, like flying a ship that didn't conform 100% to the Doctrine of the Month, or having a fleet commander claim we were on a reimbursible operation, when we really weren't. After a while, I mostly quit applying for reimbursement.

There are a few famous industrialists in EVE, such as Chribba.


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@Tyncale

You make excellent points.

And having been in a super secret fleet of freighters plus jumping titan moving from a low sec system bordering high sec to the least accessible reaches of null-sec, umm yeah...

caravans could definitely be the white knuckles sweating like mad please don't let me have this heart attack until we're through part of this game.


Chribba is probably richer for being TRUSTED, than for being an industrialist.

Like I said, everyone is space rich. But he brokers titan purchases which is possible only because he is the most trusted person in the game.

Hey, isn't Chribba the Swiss word for Thod? ;-)

Goblin Squad Member

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High-value caravans should indeed be some of most adrenal content outside of settlement-burning sieges.


Bad alliances find excuses not to reimburse.

You're right to abandon them; they've abandoned you.

Good alliances just contract you your new doctrine equipped ship, like Circle of Two was doing when I was there just months ago.

There's no better way to make sure people fly doctrine, than to issue them doctrine (even if they flew the wrong fit the first time).

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

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Savage Grace wrote:

@Tyncale

You make excellent points.

And having been in a super secret fleet of freighters plus jumping titan moving from a low sec system bordering high sec to the least accessible reaches of null-sec, umm yeah...

caravans could definitely be the white knuckles sweating like mad please don't let me have this heart attack until we're through part of this game.

That white-knuckle, high-risk, but avoiding-combat style of play has its fans in EVE, too. The various (Color) Frog Freight companies must be full of people who love that feeling.

Goblin Squad Member

Crafters success would rarely be public. Even if equipment gets maker's mark, all equipment is the same.

It isn't crafting itself that makes you well known, it is being a capitalist. Can you build a production empire that brings in a good deal of passive income over the months?

Also I don't think individual crafters are going to be well known outside their companies. Companies will have reputations with settlements and other players as providing a good supply of equipment.

Leaders of Companies most likely will have decent holdings. But since the time invested to craft T2 and T3 for the player, they are not easily replaced.

Wealth will come to those that can see opportunities and profit from them.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Savage Grace wrote:

Bad alliances find excuses not to reimburse.

You're right to abandon them; they've abandoned you.

Good alliances just contract you your new doctrine equipped ship, like Circle of Two was doing when I was there just months ago.

There's no better way to make sure people fly doctrine, than to issue them doctrine (even if they flew the wrong fit the first time).

Well, the alliance (TEST) collapsed a couple of years ago after some top-level decision making that struck me as really dumb (e.g.: "Peace is boring. Let's go stir up trouble on the other side of the star cluster instead of running our empire."), so that certainly supports your theory.

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Savage Grace wrote:


Hey, isn't Chribba the Swiss word for Thod? ;-)

How do I meet this Chribba?

Spoiler:

Don't tell me to look in the mirror - tried it but didn't work

Goblin Squad Member

Thod wrote:
Savage Grace wrote:


Hey, isn't Chribba the Swiss word for Thod? ;-)

How do I meet this Chribba?

** spoiler omitted **

You have to say their name thrice with the lights off first.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Savage Grace wrote:
And the rich settlement leaders will be the ones who strike the best balance. But I'm betting you see leaders be MUCH richer than crafters.

I bet that the leader of the most successful settlement is not the "richest" character of the settlement, for any reasonable definition of the terms.

The point of being a member of a settlement is that the relationship is mutually advantageous.

Goblin Squad Member

I must say, the power-mongering view sometimes expressed about settlement leaders is interesting, given my experience thus far in PFO. Now, I certainly understand the perspective often comes from real experience in other MMOs (where I am woefully inexperienced), but it's just so counter to what I've experienced here so far. I can't imagine wanting to play under some of the draconian leadership styles I've heard about!

And my biggest disappointment, so far...still no Aristocrat for me to play!


Savage Grace wrote:
Gaskon wrote:
Savage Grace wrote:

I picture PvPers next year just being handed whatever gear they can use, and having it replaced by GRPs (Gear Replacement Programs).

Crafting will have little meaning to them because everything is free, just for showing up and PvPing.

The reverse of this, is that PVPers are just peons that kill what they are told, when they are told to, otherwise the gear spigot gets stuff off and they become useless.

"Mongo just pawn in great chessboard of life."

-Blazing Saddles

It's actually "game of life". That's key because it makes the line a reference to a more modern board game than chess. ;P

Savage Grace wrote:

And the rich settlement leaders will be the ones who strike the best balance. But I'm betting you see leaders be MUCH richer than crafters.

If the settlement leaders decide to collaborate on setting a "taxation standard", I'll be the first to sign up for la revolucion gloriosa.


Oh, so far it hasn't become Eve (except in the whole big power blocs that might get a bit full of themselves ala BoB). I dig the leadership far and wide.

But it is very very early, and power corrupts, as does access to the wealth generated by underlings, when there is little accountability.

Plus once leaders can be unseated, we'll have the kind of leaders who'd unseat the leaders we like now.

If GW can makes resources scarce enough to bring out good competition... competition can get very ugly. But without competition, we could just play WoW.

We'll see how it goes.


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Savage Grace wrote:
Gaskon wrote:
Savage Grace wrote:

I picture PvPers next year just being handed whatever gear they can use, and having it replaced by GRPs (Gear Replacement Programs).

Crafting will have little meaning to them because everything is free, just for showing up and PvPing.

The reverse of this, is that PVPers are just peons that kill what they are told, when they are told to, otherwise the gear spigot gets stuff off and they become useless.

"Mongo just pawn in great chessboard of life."

-Blazing Saddles

It's actually "game of life". That's key because it makes the line a reference to a more modern board game than chess. ;P

Savage Grace wrote:

And the rich settlement leaders will be the ones who strike the best balance. But I'm betting you see leaders be MUCH richer than crafters.

If the settlement leaders decide to collaborate on setting a "taxation standard", I'll be the first to sign up for la revolucion gloriosa.

Dude, you're going to be revolutionary zero no matter WHAT the issue. ;-)

Hey Kobold Cleaver, what are *you* rebelling against?

KC: Whatta ya got?


Tavernhold's trying to put a stop to Kill-A-Kabal Fridays! This means war!


Thod wrote:
Savage Grace wrote:


Hey, isn't Chribba the Swiss word for Thod? ;-)

How do I meet this Chribba?

** spoiler omitted **

Fascinating stuff:

Chribba articles and pics

I'm still pricing my tattoo of a mound of shiny rocks. ;-)

To read about another fascinating Eve personality

Vile Rat articles

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