Crowdforging - should the Emerald Lodge give up on Neutrality


Pathfinder Online

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

I would like some input from my own settlement as well as from other groups.

The upcoming changes in EE4 make our current status difficult. I see out settlement as failed if we can't offer rank 10 training.

What would we need?

8 towers

What do we have?

7 towers - of these several likely not defensible (by us)

Why can't we take more?

1) Neutrality makes it difficult to go poaching easy targets
2) Golgotha to our North and EBA to our South doesn't offer room
3) 2/3 of our alliance is on EU time-line. Starting PvP to capture towers after 22:30 is not an option (17:30 EST or 15:30 Seattle time - unlikely that there will be many open PvP windows earlier)

There is no decision made - and I look for alternative ways what best to do. Become a member of a large alliance would be the easiest option it seems. There are many reasons why I wouldn't like to do that - but I have to stay realistic.

So - let me know your thoughts if we should stay neutral and how.

Disclaimer: I haven't talked to any of the other alliances nor to my own members. No decision has been made. But I look for an option that preserves 8 towers for us.

Goblin Squad Member

3 people marked this as a favorite.

No you should not abandoned your neutral stance, especially this early in the game. The WOT is a temporary thing, and your goals for the EL are long term and still achievable. The info on the towers is still on the TEST server and subject to change and updates; please keep that in mind at all times. No need to get all worked up. EE 4 WOT might make your position difficult, not impossible. You might lose a rank of training, and get it back latter as more adjustments are made. Or you might take the time to work on raising more skills to the rank you CAN train, and bank XP for those you can't until conditions are more favorable.

Offering rank 10 training is a nice goal, but not for a pre-selected template settlement; when you can build the EL from scratch it will be more realistic. There is a LOT you can do in the meantime until EE5.

Goblin Squad Member

I am assuming the main intent of this change is to force the non-aligned small settlements to either quit or choose a side. Presumably to force the current player base to align one way or the other with the two big power blocks.

The likely scenario for the next month or so is that the two big power groups will be pushing out the small settlements mainly through diplomacy/threats (absorbing their companies and taking over the towers) followed by a period of tower swapping (you took our uncontested tower to the west but we got one of yours to the southeast so we are square again).

Most little settlements are going to likely recieve an "offer to good to refuse" (move your companies to one of our settlments in return for lots of recipes and stuff and hand us your towers or just die)and end up abandoned.

It does however seem to me that Emerald Lodge is in a unique position.

In WWII many many neutral countries (like Norway for example) were simply taken over but Switzerland managed to make itself a useful trading and banking intermediary and managed to stay neutral.

Emerald Lodge may be able to do the same. It probably benefits both power blocks to have a nuetral place in the centre of the contested area you may be bale to make a deal.

Goblin Squad Member

2 people marked this as a favorite.

The entire point of Emerald Lodge was to be a base of lore and eventual operations for the Emerald Spire and its impact on our version of Golarion. The neutrality is purely in service of that goal. Without the neutrality and achievement of that goal, Emerald Lodge is just another city but also sandwiched between two lumbering superpowers.

The reason every other political entity was willing to go along with the idea of "Emerald Lodge is neutral so maybe allow it to be a stable platform for the Spire" is we believe that is good for the game.

The simplest answer with current changes is we, the political entities in the game world, agree to let Emerald Lodge have eight specific towers unmolested to be a successful settlement, again for the long term good of the game. The Emerald Eight need not all be the closest ones to the town. Some/most could be far flung ones that we wouldn't want to trudge out to fight over anyway.

WoT is a temporary condition we find ourselves in and there will be plenty of other towers to fight over for the bloodthirsty. Having level 10 training available gives Emerald Lodge a healthy environment for Pathfinder Society players to join the game, be successful, stay in the game and bring others.

Id and schadenfreude aside, if we were all willing to not destroy Emerald Lodge long term for the good of the game, then donating eight out of the way towers to the same end should be a simple decision.

Goblin Squad Member

The Keepers support the Neutrality of Emerald Lodge. Having a true neutral ground, supported and acknowledged by all major parties, is important to me personally. To that end, I will discuss with our leadership the possibility of giving you another tower to make 8.

Goblin Squad Member

Forgeholm can offer a tower to the Emerald Lodge if needed.


I want to be clear that I'm speaking as an individual (but as an individual with enough characters to singlehandedly grab all of E.L.'s towers any day I choose).

There are 3 reasons settlements have towers:

1) Because they are mighty (or sneaky) enough and disciplined enough to hold them under whatever WoT game mechanics exist at the time.

2) Because their neighbors practice forbearance (for a variety of reasons, from diplomatic to military to propaganda value or fear of negative propaganda, or even because a settlement is seen as cute and lovable, or seen as being useful).

3) Because there is a surplus of towers.

---

#3 looks like it is going away, and will likely pressure the viabilty of many settlements relying on #2. That doesn't mean #2 can't work, just that it is likely to be more challenging.

There are quite a few reasons I haven't singlehandedly taken E.L.'s towers, the first being that I (currently) prefer being in my current settlement to the option of creating a company to take your (or anyone else's) towers and holding them as an indie (who could recruit more folks to help, obviously).

I also like nearly every E.L. member I've communicated with.

I'm intrigued with what you're doing, and simple curiosity over what will happen next is also a big part of my individual E.L. forbearance. RiverBank's Academy could also fall into that category soon or someday.

In fact the only thing working against you (as far as my individual forbearance) is the fact that if I took them it would mobilize a lot of people to your defense.

You might think that works for you, until you realize I like PvP and even a day of LOSING PvP can be better than a day without it.

But you can currently put up a sign saying: 47 days without Midnight capturing our towers. :-)

Considering WHY you can put up that sign should help you figure out how to keep that and over 32 other signs up.

I'm not trying to alarm you with the sudden realization that you have more people to worry about than the 32 settlement leaders you're already juggling. I'm just trying to offer one person's individual view on the strengths and weaknesses of your position and what you do and don't have going for you.

Good luck, and I agree with a lot of the sentiment of the people above.

Goblin Squad Member

Dear Thod,

Please check PMs.

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

I'm reading everything and thanks for the PMs I got. But seems to me it is best if I stay in the background for a little bit longer before answering them.

Only that much

THANKS everyone for all your posts so far. They are all great and maybe it was a knee-jerk reaction.

Goblin Squad Member

Mindful of Duffy's Post on Goblinworks, and my following suggestion, it's possible that Emerald Lodge could become more of a stopping off and provisioning place (for the duration of the Tower Wars). Populate it primarily with citizen-alts that have little or no training need during the Tower Wars, have most of your citizens take up company membership in a settlement that they can support with towers and that can train them, while they spend a lot of their time in and around EL.

They can train in their adopted homes settlements, while spending most of their time in EL and maintaining it's activity level, without contesting the middle of the map for tower needs.

EE4 Tower Wars is not going to support more than a dozen or so settlements training past the basics.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Naturally. The day I'm not home to log in for our afternoon meeting you decide to spring this on us! Gah!

I'm with Giorgo: no need to make a decision at this moment. It's still on the test server, still subject to change, and we're still in pre-Cataclysm mode.

And as an Emerald Lodge resident, I'd like to thank those suggesting ways to make sure we have towers. Thod, this is proof, if any is needed, that your work to make the Lodge a valued neutral settlement is working - and working well. Let's not give that up just yet.

Goblin Squad Member

I believe the Emerald Lodge concept is "doable", hence why I signed off on it when originally put forth. Nobody said it would be easy though, as I guess you already know.

I still want to see it work.

Goblin Squad Member

I think neutrality does not mean you have to give up viability, and you should maintain minimum viable tower count, preferably through diplomacy, but even if you have to fight to do it, without attempting to expand beyond that point. You should be allowed to continue to offer the same level of training you do now even if the total number of towers is reduced. Perhaps settlements that already have a surplus of towers should make sure you have your fair share, or else maybe they should find another bank to use when they start exploring the Emerald Spire.

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Durin Steelforge of Forgeholm wrote:
Forgeholm can offer a tower to the Emerald Lodge if needed.

I never thanked for this offer. I hope it isn't needed and EE4 won't change the tower math that drastically. But I picked the offer up in Theodum's next write-up. I hope that is okay.

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