The Tragedy of Blackwood Glade


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Goblin Squad Member

That doesn't sound too bad in a game where you soon find yourself needing days or months to train the next thing on your list for what you're focusing on.

Goblin Squad Member

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It's not just training, though. It's training, and banking, and crafting, and auction houses, and being able to meet the party where they're gathered in front of the bank, and having to chart your course around every settlement along your route instead of running through, and not being able to go AFK next to a Thronguard for protection...

Mechanically, no, it's not an insurmountable problem, but the quality of life impact is significant and effective.


Capitalocracy wrote:
That doesn't sound too bad in a game where you soon find yourself needing days or months to train the next thing on your list for what you're focusing on.

Like everything else, it's a work in progress.

Until Goonswarm joins ;-) we won't really know if it is limiting enough.

Remember that pinpoint targeted advertising Ryan talked about?

What if it shows up on the Something Awful website?

bwahahahaha

uhh stealth edit... it was funny until I remembered how much money I have in this game.

Goblin Squad Member

Since there is some Golgotha players here, what is the protocol on transiting areas you control?

I want to visit Thornkeep but your evil empire is in the way and I don't want to hug the map edges to go around, unless 'all bets are off' is the modus operandi in Golgotha. If that is the case, I will suck it up and go the long way around.

Goblin Squad Member

Where would you be coming from?

Goblin Squad Member

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Midnight of Golgotha wrote:
Saiph wrote:
<Kabal> Daeglin wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:
It seems backwards to me to have the PVP stuff in place before the safeguards are in place or whatever needs to be in place to prevent this kind of thing from happening...

I honestly can't tell if you really don't understand or are deliberately exaggerating. Nothing "wrong" happened. The game played out as intended. Pvp occurred with consequences (not rep loss due to open pvp status, but social consequences such as increased aggression against Golgotha from neighbors), and rewards (loot drops). Some players on both sides changed how they play the game, and others quit because they finally experienced a major component of the game. This will happen again and again and again all across the map because it is the game. Hopefully, there wont be the rage as the people who have so far ignored information from the developers will now understand it better. The echo chamber is never a good place to learn things.

I'm not entirely sure but I'd guess the problem is (at this stage of the game) the consequences for murderers/bandits are far less severe than the victim's. And, as far as I know, that is not at all how it is intended or described.

As a tier 2 gatherer of 4 gathering types I feel the consequences of losing to banditry are usually inconsequential.

I could lose ~30 minutes of gathering if I wasn't smart enough to run away.

Yes, moving hundreds of recipes/spells/maneuvers from one bank to another in one load is risky, but that always remains a choice of risk versus time spent moving them one at a time (or some hybrid) for safety. That's a good thing in a game where choices matter.

Is the game in its current state more lenient to murderers than it was advertised to be, or not? And if indeed it is, do you see how some players can be put off by that fact?


The best advice is to visit it with your inventory empty. You can't lose what you don't carry.

If you are intent on shopping there and are wary of bandits, Aragon may be more of a threat than Golgotha.

And of course, stopping to gather exposes you far more than running non-stop.

It is not easy to close on and stop a good runner. Only a series of unlikely events could do you in if you are trying to avoid combat.

Goblin Squad Member

Gol Guurzak wrote:
Where would you be coming from?

And when? J/K totally joking.

Can you craft in Rotter's Hole? If I were planning to kill people, I'd bring some gear and/or crafting stuff over there, knowing full well I was planning to spend my rep. If you don't plan for a heist, and you end up on the run, yeah, you have a bad time. If you plan it out first, you get your affairs in order, you lay low for a while, and you enjoy the spoils. If the problem is having to run across the map, that just sounds like laziness to me, tbh... and also something that smallholdings can help with, which at least gives the aggrieved something significant and meaningful to attack.


Saiph wrote:


Is the game in its current state more lenient to murderers than it was advertised to be, or not? And if indeed it is, do you see how some players can be put off by that fact?

No one gets murdered, Pharasma has our backs.

I'm a latecomer (last weeks of alpha), so I can't answer that first question definitively.

If people are put off by it, well, in another thread I stated I'd be guided by the devs, rather than by someone wielding an I quit threat.

That same day Ryan posted on the GW forums about banditry, and I think it is eminently fair to conclude he wasn't asking me or my mates to dial it back.

I and others who have nonetheless dialed it back are doing so for completely different reasons.

Reasons like:
Rep.
EBA's willingness to (insistence on?) :-) providing alternative PvP.
Catching up on PvE stuff on days when towers/trainers aren't bugged.
Friday was the release of the entire Season 3 of House of Cards.

Goblin Squad Member

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Gotcha, well it is indeed more lenient in its current state. I don't see your evil settlement or characters being less powerful than your good counterparts. And I think it's safe to say being a bandit is just as easy as being the good guy. I'm almost positive that's not intended.

Goblin Squad Member

Saiph wrote:
Is the game in its current state more lenient to murderers than it was advertised to be, or not? And if indeed it is, do you see how some players can be put off by that fact?

There's the crux. The game was advertised to be open world pvp with consequences, severity ranging from nil to gimped character development, to expulsion from the game. Some people have somehow interpreted that to mean it is supposed to stop pvp. The inflammatory use of murderer aside, would you agree that pvp is a core concept of this game, and the leniency you speak of is something meant to be iterated to influence pvp behaviour, but not disallow it?

Goblin Squad Member

Saiph wrote:
Gotcha, well it is indeed more lenient in its current state. I don't see your evil settlement or characters being less powerful than your good counterparts. And I think it's safe to say being a bandit is just as easy as being the good guy. I'm almost positive that's not intended.

Ah I see, you're equating character alignment with whether they are playing by the rules of the game. I misunderstood and thought you were referring to mechanics as opposed to whether good should be more powerful than evil.


Saiph wrote:
Gotcha, well it is indeed more lenient in its current state. I don't see your evil settlement or characters being less powerful than your good counterparts. And I think it's safe to say being a bandit is just as easy as being the good guy. I'm almost positive that's not intended.

I believe currently it is more lenient than it will eventually be, however that does not necessarily mean those eventual systems will completely stop such things. It will hopefully just make the decision to play that way more of a commitment (and less of a timeout penalty), with a few balancing factors (like SAD mechanics), and giving other folks some advantages should they choose to hunt the criminals down.

Goblin Squad Member

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<Kabal> Daeglin wrote:
Saiph wrote:
Is the game in its current state more lenient to murderers than it was advertised to be, or not? And if indeed it is, do you see how some players can be put off by that fact?
There's the crux. The game was advertised to be open world pvp with consequences, severity ranging from nil to gimped character development, to expulsion from the game. Some people have somehow interpreted that to mean it is supposed to stop pvp. The inflammatory use of murderer aside, would you agree that pvp is a core concept of this game, and the leniency you speak of is something meant to be iterated to influence pvp behaviour, but not disallow it?

My opinion doesn't matter, what matters is that PFO advertised playing evil as being hard. So, I'm empathetic towards the players getting killed by murderers that suffer little to no consequence. And those same evil players telling them "well you should be more prepared." When in actuality if the game was working as intended many of these issues wouldn't have played out. That is the point I'm trying to make and the point that needs to be addressed.


Saiph wrote:
Gotcha, well it is indeed more lenient in its current state. I don't see your evil settlement or characters being less powerful than your good counterparts. And I think it's safe to say being a bandit is just as easy as being the good guy. I'm almost positive that's not intended.

While being an *occasional* bandit is just as easy, that just points to a failure of the social control element that Lisa and Ryan put in PLAYER hands.

I'm amazed that Midnight doesn't get hunted down as the public face of coal killing (even though I know players who kill way more coal gatherers and bring home far more coal than Midnight).

Of course, Midnight does things that perhaps mitigate any calls for a posse. e.g. I bumped into a stranger who had a husk in the center of a gnarly pack of mobs and told them to let me pull the mobs away so he could get his husk. I hope that on the day a posse comes with a rope for Midnight, that whoever that stranger was fires an arrow that slices the rope, allowing me to escape.

But social control leniency has also allowed players to TRY a lot of things out and that should be improving crowdforging. I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of clemency movement at the Cataclysm or at OE. But it might also be a mistake for miscreants to depend on it.

Goblin Squad Member

<Kabal> Daeglin wrote:
Saiph wrote:
Is the game in its current state more lenient to murderers than it was advertised to be, or not? And if indeed it is, do you see how some players can be put off by that fact?
There's the crux. The game was advertised to be open world pvp with consequences, severity ranging from nil to gimped character development, to expulsion from the game. Some people have somehow interpreted that to mean it is supposed to stop pvp. The inflammatory use of murderer aside, would you agree that pvp is a core concept of this game, and the leniency you speak of is something meant to be iterated to influence pvp behaviour, but not disallow it?

Obviously it's not meant to be disallowed, otherwise they just wouldn't put it in at all.

Goblin Squad Member

We can argue until the cows come home, but in the end Goblinworks did advertise evil as being hard and right now it's not. I'm sure many players (that aren't thrilled with getting killed by a random player) still thought to give PFO a try because of that ideal.

Goblin Squad Member

It's chaotic evil that's supposed to be hard. Lawful Evil is supposed to be a powerful alignment. All very cryptic until we know exactly which actions pull you chaotic and which pull you evil.

Goblin Squad Member

T7V Avari wrote:
It's chaotic evil that's supposed to be hard. Lawful Evil is supposed to be a powerful alignment. All very cryptic until we know exactly which actions pull you chaotic and which pull you evil.

Chaotic evil is supposed to be hard(est).

Goblin Squad Member

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Midnight of Golgotha wrote:
I hope that on the day a posse comes with a rope for Midnight, that whoever that stranger was fires an arrow that slices the rope, allowing me to escape.

Lyncher: This is a righteous hanging. You cannot think to thwart Iomedae's will.

Phyllain: Y'all see the orc back there with the really big longbow? I'm not saying you weren't easy to find, but it was kind of out of our way and he didn't wanna come in the first place. Orc's lookin' to kill some folk. So really it's his will y'all should worry about thwarting.

Phyllain: [to Midnight] Gotta say, your talent for alienatin' folks is near miraculous.

Midnight: Yes, I'm very proud.

Phyllain: Cut her down.

Lyncher: The girl is a coal-killer.

Phyllain: Yeah, but she's our coal-killer.

[Swaps to holy symbol and casts Divine Strength]

Phyllain: So cut her the hell down.


Guurzak, you'll always be my Big Damn Hero.

Goblin Squad Member

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Saiph wrote:
T7V Avari wrote:
It's chaotic evil that's supposed to be hard. Lawful Evil is supposed to be a powerful alignment. All very cryptic until we know exactly which actions pull you chaotic and which pull you evil.
Chaotic evil is supposed to be hard(est).

Ryan's also said he expects LG to be difficult to maintain because its constricting to PvP.

I dunno, I'm still not sold on alignment as more than a faction wheel (Fallen Earth style) with Reputation doing the all the heavy lifting for "arsehat funneling". We shall see.

Goblin Squad Member

Yes. I believe Lawful evil was supposed to be one of the strongest since so many avenues of play remain open. One could argue neutral is just as capable. The lawful good paladin who indiscriminately kills every evil doer she comes across will end up just as gimped as the chaotic evil bandit.

Goblin Squad Member

There are no settlement alignments yet so discussing the pros/cons of being Evil at this point is mere conjecture.

That said - what Ryan actually stated so far as I recall was Chaotic Evil would not be a very viable settlement alignment for training. LE was always meant to be viable.

One thing Ryan HAS said very recently is that the current situation of settlement hexes and the major roads near TK being unsafe is not the longterm intention. Elsewhere on the map all bets are off though.

Goblin Squad Member

I have no doubts, what so ever, that if the s+*@ hits the fan that we would band together to collectively stick are foot up someone's arse that tried to screw with the server.

As far as playing alignments, I keep thinking that the issue is going to be more about keeping your settlement at the alignment you want, by asking people to do stuff they may or may not normally do. Just like any other game this game will be min/maxed to what ever alignment we deem appropriate and powerful for our own needs and wants. A lot of us will change alignments (most likely keeping our good/evil axis) depending on the benefits/penalties for that alignment.

I have heard they are drawing from the pathfinder settlement creation guide, and I would like to paraphrase a bit for you all of what we might get:

Lawful - Increase Law Score
Good - Increase Society Score
Chaotic - Crime Score
Evil - Corruption Score
Neutral - Lore Score

Corruption - Bluff/Stealth
Crime - Sense Motive/Pickpocket
Law - Intimidation/Diplomacy
Neutral - Diplomacy/Knowledge
Society - Disguise/Diplomacy

My point is that I am highlighting some of the differences between settlements. Its going to be interesting to see all the differences it will be to play different alignments. Some will be harder than others, but no matter what you decide, you are going to have an advantage somewhere that you can use to better your settlement.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

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Basically, right now, it feels like there are no reasonable precautions that can be taken to avoid PvP. Borders mean nothing. Proximity to allied Settlements means nothing. During the Kickstarter pitch, they indicated that PvP averse characters would have options, that being closer to Settlements would offer greater safety but lower opportunity for reward. No mechanic to support that balancing act exists, and there are no mechanics on the road map to support it.

I have no personal problem with PvP, I just wasn't ready to wade into the game's damn near opaque mechanics in order to be ready for it. The game isn't worth the time investment right now.

I'm not leaving the game. But I like Mourn and Sakina, they were good people and it was fun logging in once a week to hit escalations around BWG. Not having that anymore is going to make it a little harder to motivate myself into playing PFO.

Goblin Squad Member

I think all expectations for PFO are going to have to be weighed much father towards OE, and less on this end of EE.

Goblin Squad Member

Storm, I definitely think it's a sad situation, but I think they really jumped the gun selling their accounts and quitting so fast. It's going to be part of the game, but it's way too early to tell if the name of the game is going to be watch your back at all times, or if it's going to be just another part of the game like ogres and goblins. I'm sorry you lost your hunting partners, I really am.


Alignment mechanics may force a few of us to change our ways (or more likely change our alignments to avoid changing our ways since most people hate change). Alignment mechanics might also cause people to find common ground where they lacked it before.

I'm not at all sure that lawful evil will be the best choice for all my characters. I'm giving it a try because that's what my guild chose to try.

Goblin Squad Member

theStormWeaver wrote:

Basically, right now, it feels like there are no reasonable precautions that can be taken to avoid PvP. Borders mean nothing. Proximity to allied Settlements means nothing. During the Kickstarter pitch, they indicated that PvP averse characters would have options, that being closer to Settlements would offer greater safety but lower opportunity for reward. No mechanic to support that balancing act exists, and there are no mechanics on the road map to support it.

I have no personal problem with PvP, I just wasn't ready to wade into the game's damn near opaque mechanics in order to be ready for it. The game isn't worth the time investment right now.

I'm not leaving the game. But I like Mourn and Sakina, they were good people and it was fun logging in once a week to hit escalations around BWG. Not having that anymore is going to make it a little harder to motivate myself into playing PFO.

You're welcome to join us up in the Northwest at Stoneroot Glade or our allies in Talonguard and Tavernhold. I believe one of your mates has found a home in Tavernhold. Azure's weekly Hunts out of Talonguard on Sat evenings have become a traditional Alliance event that is some people's main activity. You don't even have to be an alliance member to join in. Please don't give up on this experience! I'm a fervent Pathfinder fan and i think there is place for any type of gamer here, it's just a matter of finding the right niche.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Gol Tink wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
Gol Tink wrote:
How does T7V respond to ongoing rumours that Tink is actually their super secret leader, and this has all been a ruse? It's all anyone is talking about.
How does Golgotha respond to ongoing rumors that Phyllain changed Golgotha's PvP Window to the middle of the night when no Golgothans were online to defend their Towers, despite all the rhetoric about how much you guys want PvP?
The same way that TEO responds to moving theirs to 11am server time? You said you wanted a war, we aren't going to be stupid about it.

Y'all launched the war, we just moved it to the known location on your doorstep at a time of your choosing.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Gol Tink wrote:
Capitalocracy wrote:
Savage Grace wrote:
Nonsense, we're all just Thod alts, roleplaying villains and victims.
That's another part of the problem, just villains and victims. We've got some proactive robbers, but we don't have many people playing cops yet. I suspect that will change with time, but it would be nice if there were some sort of brute squad people could call on to come fight bandits that are just camping around ambushing people.
To be fair, Phaeros are doing a good job acting as Team EBA, World Police right now. They are keeping us occupied with things that aren't accidentally picking on small settlements.

Darn! I thought that our motive to get you to follow the funnel towards the desired type of behavior was going to be unnoticed for at least a week or so.


The new season of House of Cards on Netflix is probably preventing more husks, as well as cutting into WoT action across the map.

Don't ask me why I'd be drawn to a series with a megalomaniac as the hero. ;-)

Goblin Squad Member

Good old decius. Its people like you and nihimon that makes cheatles vision of us uniting against some other out of game force more and more unlikely. To be honest after this last week if goons showed up tomorrow and told me they would keep TEO busy while we got to fight you I might take them up on it. Maybe.

Goblin Squad Member

That or you know, Not being able to train or enter a settlement. Last time I listen to someone on these boards, specially when they're spouting the word "Lazy".


Gol Phyllain wrote:
Good old decius. Its people like you and nihimon that makes cheatles vision of us uniting against some other out of game force more and more unlikely. To be honest after this last week if goons showed up tomorrow and told me they would keep TEO busy while we got to fight you I might take them up on it. Maybe.

Two words:

Buddy invites. :-)

Goblin Squad Member

@Midngight, LOL

Ehhh if you aren't goons you aren't goons.

Though, to be fair, we are trying to give you some entertainment, Decius/Nihimon are just getting really into it. We are also exploring tactics, and balance how much time we devote to PvP (especially since some of our guys took some major hits to Rep in the last 4 battles). Also, I am looking into some interesting ways of getting our recruitment (including Golgothas and everyone elses) up, and I can tell you that these forums mean nothing to most of the people that all of us are recruiting.

I can't wait till we have better GW forums.

Goblin Squad Member

Gol Phyllain wrote:
Good old decius. Its people like you and nihimon that makes cheatles vision of us uniting against some other out of game force more and more unlikely. To be honest after this last week if goons showed up tomorrow and told me they would keep TEO busy while we got to fight you I might take them up on it. Maybe.

Good old phyllain. It's people like you, tigari, and elsworth that probably killed Cheatle's vision in the womb.

Goblin Squad Member

Tig you finally got on a list! So proud.

Nihimon you might remember a era shrouded in the mists of time. It was a week ago. We would come down and fight you, you would come up and fight us. Great times where had by all. There was even a fight where both sides evened out their numbers so it would be fair. Cooperation was plentiful and no butt hurt was to be seen. Then this week happened and all the butt hurt covered the land. Aided on by your and decius' spiteful bs. I actually like most of the TEO players and would happily work with them in most instances. Its TSV leadership that I and most Golgothans simply can't stand.

Goblin Squad Member

Aww man, I gotta start being awake for America primetime. I don't even get a mention!? This is bull.

Can't we just go back to the times of us accusing Nihimon of have entirely ulterior motives in his "heart and soul of the community" bs, and then you guys accusing us of being heartless sociopathic monsters hell bent on the complete destruction of everything Dancey holds dear?

Goblin Squad Member

I had a question:

Weren't we suppose to all get together and clear an escalation together? Whatever happened to that?

Goblin Squad Member

It turned out that escalations are ezpz? Unless it is one of the, what, two T2 ones, you can basically do them solo. At least that has been my experience.

Goblin Squad Member

Capitalocracy wrote:
Gol Guurzak wrote:
Where would you be coming from?

And when? J/K totally joking.

Can you craft in Rotter's Hole? If I were planning to kill people, I'd bring some gear and/or crafting stuff over there, knowing full well I was planning to spend my rep. If you don't plan for a heist, and you end up on the run, yeah, you have a bad time. If you plan it out first, you get your affairs in order, you lay low for a while, and you enjoy the spoils. If the problem is having to run across the map, that just sounds like laziness to me, tbh... and also something that smallholdings can help with, which at least gives the aggrieved something significant and meaningful to attack.

Yes you can craft there. It is like any other NPC village except it has zero Thornguards present.

Goblin Squad Member

Except the Thornguards at the inn. They still exist.

Goblin Squad Member

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LOL. So you can gank to your heart's content in the town of Rotter's Hole but don't start a barfight?

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

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Black Moria wrote:
LOL. So you can gank to your heart's content in the town of Rotter's Hole but don't start a barfight?

Hey! Don't damage the whisky!!!

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

They don't have Emerald Spirit there - I wonder if this is good or bad?

Goblin Squad Member

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I tried to get a peek in there, but the security was pretty tight. My reputation must have spread from TSV because even the trainers there said my rep was too low, haven't tried again since raising my rep slightly ( finally around -3800 last night!!)

Goblin Squad Member

Gol Tigari wrote:
I tried to get a peek in there, but the security was pretty tight. My reputation must have spread from TSV because even the trainers there said my rep was too low, haven't tried again since raising my rep slightly ( finally around -3800 last night!!)

My goodness! Recovered to -3800? You really have been a busy guy. :)

Out of curiosity, could you (or anyone else knowledgable) clue me in on the rep loss calculations, as they stand now. Or could you provide a link to the latest?

Many thx, Scary Shadow Man

Goblin Squad Member

That is actually him being a good boy for the last two weeks. That is how punishing the reputation system is right now :p Combined with a few bugs, that is.

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