Crazy AoO Pair


Advice


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

So looking into the hunter. I like the idea of tons of AoO. I want to make this work. I also think I want to use a pole arm of sorts as we have plenty of melee in the party. A bow will be my back up if only because everyone else leaves them at home. I will be starting at level 3 with a 20 point buy. For me finely deciding on a class is a big improvement. You can ask my group. So I come to you guys for tips and ideas on building this hunter. As the title suggests I would like to melee with my friend as we trade AoOs until the enemy dies.

The Exchange

Your aoo fest only comes when your reach 7, your mount gets large and gains reach. Get a nice spiky anklosaurus and ride it at lv 7. Before that just any animal companion you like(maybe a roc, Deinonchyus, ape, small cat or bear).

Hunter feats:
Lv 1: Combat reflexes
Lv 2: precise companion (outflank)
Lv 3: pack flanking (bonus team work feat)
Lv 3: Combat expertise
lv 5: power attack
lv 6 : paired opportunists(bonus team work feat)
lv 7: exotic weapon profeciency (falchard)
lv 9: escape route (bonus team work feat)
lv 9: weapon focus (falchard)
lv 11: improved critical
lv 12 : sieze the moment (bonus teamwork feat)

Anklyosaurus feats (when you get it at lv 7)
Lv 1: combat reflexes
lv 3: power attack
Lv 5: narrow frame
lv 8: paired opportunists
Lv 10: wep focus (tail)
Lv 13: improved critical (tail)

Mm. One nice package.


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Get yourself an axebeak and take tandem trip as well. Now it can roll his free trip on a charge twice and take the better result.
Nothing says f*** you in particular like a a ton of aoo's on a guy that is lying on the ground.

Grand Lodge

I prefer Tyrannosaurus. x2 STR bonus on all those AoOs adds up.

You can also buy a cracked Opalescent White Pyramid (Ioun Stone) to get EWP(Fauchard). You are going to have enough to-hit bonuses that you don't need Weapon Focus, and I'd just buy Keen. After 6th, I'd invest most of those feats into the Improved Trip line, with or without Tandem Trip. I found you've got enough to-hit bonuses (+12 on AoOs at 8th!, with +4 from Improved/Greater Trip) that your trips don't fail.

Grab a Ring of Rat Fangs (or play Half Oorc, or more iffily Adopted by Half Orcs for Tusked trait) so you've got a nice Bite attack with x1.5 Str that threatens adjacent without using any hands.

I'd take Broken Wing Gambit at 5th (or Paired Opportunists, and Broken Wing at 6th.)

I'd also look at the Bodyguard archetype for your AC.

At 6th, your *opponent's* turn looks something like this:
They charge you.

AoO from you for Reach, at +10 (4 Paired Opp, 2 Snake Style, 4 Pack Flanking.)
AoO from your Tyrannosaurus at +10, possibly with follow-up Grab and x2 STR bonus to damage.
Assuming you don't trip them out of reach, they get to attack you or your Dino, and they get +2 to hit and damage!
But first, you each get another AoO on them. This time, the followup Grab is important if they're attacking you, as the grapple will reduce their odds of hitting you.
Now there's about at 50% chance one of you has Crit and thus both get another round of AoOs.
Then, after eating 4-6 attacks, the enemy gets to swing at you. With a Bodyguard AC, you can have the AC intercept to spread the damage around.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

These all sound awesome. How does the T-rex get the x2 multiplier. Also what would you sacrifice for snake style.

Grand Lodge

T-Rex has "Powerful Bite" which gives it x2 STR bonus on its bite attack.

I meant Snake Focus (the hunter class feature.) It really comes into its own at 8th when you get two focuses at a once, and the bonus goes to +4.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Probably not, but does that affect power attack?

Grand Lodge

Not explicitly (and thus not for PFS.) But a reasonable GM would probably extend the "1.5x bonus for attacks which use 1.5xSTR bonus" in Power Attack to "2x bonus for attacks which use 2xSTR bonus."


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Ok based off of some suggestions, I have the following:

Hunter feats:
Trait: Heirloom Weapon (Fauchard)
Trait: Adopted (Toothy) [My thoughts are that way down in my lineage there was an Orc]
Level 1: Combat Reflexes
Level 2: Outflank (Precise Companion)
Level 3: Pack Flanking (Bonus Team Work Feat)
Level 3: Combat Expertise
Level 5: Paired Opportunists
Level 6: Broken Wing Gambit (Bonus Team Work Feat)
Level 7: Power Attack
Level 9: Tandem Trip (Bonus Team Work Feat)
Level 9: Improved Trip
Level 11: Improved Critical
Level 12: Seize the Moment (Bonus Teamwork Feat)
T-Rex Feats:
Level 1: Combat Reflexes
Level 3: Power Attack
Level 5: Narrow Frame
Level 8: Paired Opportunists
Level 10: Weapon Focus (Bite)
Level 13: Improved Critical (Bite)

What are your thoughts? Any improvements to be made?

Grand Lodge

Your pet doesn't need to take Paired Opportunists.

I don't think you can take Improved Critical for Fauchard, since you're not proficient with them (even though you're proficient with one specific Fauchard.) Getting Keen on your weapon will up your crit earlier and save a feat. I'd probably go with Greater Trip at 11.

I'm iffy on Tandem Trip as well, you might consider Lookout if you're going with a Bodyguard AC, since your AC is never surprised, you'll never be surprised, and you've got a pretty good chance of getting a full round action in the surprise round.

The Exchange

If he is using an ioun stone he gets weapon prof. Improved critical is pre-req feat for sieze the moment. I find that so much focus on trip is too hyper specialized. Any flyer cannot be tripped, better to focus on criticals instead. The reason I suggested anklyosaurus is for the daze on hit

Stun (Ex)

The ankylosaurus's tail can deliver a powerful, stunning blow. A creature struck by this attack must make a DC (10 + 1/2 HD + Str modifier) Fortitude save or be dazed for 1 round. If the strike is a critical hit and the target fails its save, it is instead stunned for 1d4 rounds

Which is a powerful defensive tool imo.

Agreed pet does not need paired opportunists. Put it for iron will instead. Switch lv 10 wep focus bite for improved natural attack(good catch).

I find it better to get harder they fall (from giant slayer handbook, check if gm allows), better then tandem trip because with the modifiers you should trip fine anyway (+4 from outflank), and lets you trip wider range of targets.

For threatening at 5 ft, just wear armor spikes (but check with gm first if you can threaten while using a polearm if youre wearing armor spikes).

I never liked broken wing gambit because I never understood how it worked, can an intelligent enemy choose not to take the +2 to hit and damage? Would an ooze be immune to it as it has no intelligence score?

Grand Lodge

Heh, I think Broken Wing is pretty clear, but Seize the Moment+Outflank is iffy. They can choose who to attack, but they provoke if they attack anyone giving the bonus. If they can choose to avoid it, it's pointless, yeah.

On Seize the Moment plus Outflank, "Confirms a crit" vs score a critical hit" is a pretty fine point for "an action can only provoke one AoO."

Now that I think about it, I would use Butterfly Sting if you're more crit focused (and/or going Ankylosaur.) Upgrade that Fauchard crit to a T-Rex Bite or Stunning tail slam (and still kick of a wave of AoOs.)

I like Bite better than Armor Spikes since it's 1.5 STR damage, doesn't' require a GM question, and Hunter has Improved Magic Fang, which makes a natural attack even better.

Speaking of flyers, my Hunter actually uses a Pterasaur. Not as much damage (or Stun) but having a flying mounthas a lot of utility.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Ok you guys are awesome. I really appreciate the assistance. Something about the T-rex just gets me excited so I will stick with him. I took off traits because the ioun stone and spikes should do. I'm thinking human with eye for talent. I will need tips for the traits. Also upon thinking about my stats I thought "OMG! I seem to be approaching MAD territory." How do you guys think 20 point buy should go? Also here is the latest revision.

Level 1: Combat Reflexes 
Level 2: Outflank (Precise Companion) 
Level 3: Pack Flanking (Bonus Team Work Feat) 
Level 3: Combat Expertise 
Level 5: Paired Opportunists 
Level 6: Broken Wing Gambit (Bonus Team Work Feat) 
Level 7: Butterfly Sting
Level 9: Precise Strike (Bonus Team Work Feat) 
Level 9: Improved Trip 
Level 11: Improved Critical 
Level 12: Lookout (Bonus Teamwork Feat) 
T-Rex Feats: 
Level 1: Combat Reflexes 
Level 3: Power Attack 
Level 5: Narrow Frame 
Level 8: Improved Natural Attack (Bite)
Level 10: Iron Will
Level 13: Improved Critical (Bite)

The Exchange

If you trip an enemy next to you with greater trip and you also have vicious stomp, you get 2 aoos. Because greater trip grants you an aoo when you trip successfully, while vicious stomp says you get an aoo for him falling prone next to you. One single action, 2 AOOs. Nothing wrong with sieze the moment and outflank. One crit, 2 AOOs.

You can use the following stat array after racial mods:

Str 16(+2 into str), dex 14, con 14, int 13, wis 13, cha 10.

If you want to dump stat, dump cha, but don't tell me about it, I don't want to hear it.

I dont really care for butterfly sting as natural attacks have only a x2 modifier. Its with scythes you have to be wary off when they crit, not bites. A x2 crit won't kill a CR appropriate monster at full hp.

I also think lookout is not necessary, as both of you can take aoos even when flatfooted. To be honest with a reach build, majority of damage is done when enemies move towards you, on their turns and not so dependent on you getting full attacks.

And dont worry if 2 people give you differing advice. We're all different and have different opinions, afterall.

You can get tusked but not toothy. Toothy is not a race trait but relies on you being a half orc.

I'd rather go half orc, get sacred tattoo and fates favored, rely on armor spikes (if allowed). Awesome +2 to all saves!


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

So you think I may be better off with a half Orc instead of giving my AC an additional 2 to a stat? The saves are pretty appealing never thought of fates favored and how that would mix. What do you guys think for another Trait? Also what are some pro and cons over the archetypes for animal companions? I notice I have also forgot this character is going to be a caster hence the 13 Wisdom. I am very used to maxing out just one or two stats with characters.


Lunchbox3000 wrote:
So you think I may be better off with a half Orc instead of giving my AC an additional 2 to a stat? The saves are pretty appealing never thought of fates favored and how that would mix. What do you guys think for another Trait? Also what are some pro and cons over the archetypes for animal companions? I notice I have also forgot this character is going to be a caster hence the 13 Wisdom. I am very used to maxing out just one or two stats with characters.

bred for war trait +1 all cmb

temple guard trait +1 aoo with polearms
sacred tattoo + fate's favored +2 all saving throws


If you are OK with dipping, I would strongly recommend taking a level of Cavalier to start. Better first level hit die. Free teamwork feat. Could stack with hunter levels for your animal companion, depending on the AC you pick. And there are a bunch of nifty Cavalier orders that can be fun.

I would also recommend taking a level of Wild Child Brawler around 5th or sixth level for the flexible feat. And that will stack with other levels for your AC.

Dipping will seriously slow the spell progression, but will improve your melee overall.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I don't know if I am up for multiclassing. My character is pretty good, but I do have a couple questions before my game tomorrow.
1. What are some pros and cons of bodyguard archetype for my character here?
2. What are some spell recommendations? (Right now I took lead blades, cure light, resist energy, and magic fang)

Grand Lodge

I'm pro Bodyguard. Until 9th, you're trading Share Spells and Evasion for:
Alertness for you and the AC,
the AC never being surprised,
adding your level to the ACs threshold for dying,
a nice bonus in negative HP, and
what's basically a free Die Hard feat.

At 9th, you miss out on Multiattack, which is something of a loss. But not that big for an AoO focused build.

That looks like a good mix of spells. I might trade out Magic Fang. Greater Magic Fang, for larger bonuses at 1 hour/level is great, but +1 for minutes/level is iffy.

I like Longstrider, Deadeye's Lore, and Heightened Awareness as options.

The Exchange

Im against bodyguard. Evasion is too good and animal companions can easily make reflex saves. I recommend no dips. Share spells for longstrider and greater on your ac is too awesome, don't trade it away. If you do things right you shouldn't need die hard and all that, rest of tne world manages fine without.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I just wanted to say that I played this build today and I loved it! The only issue I noticed is that the first attack from my T-Rex seemed lack luster as it was hard to land without the teamwork bonuses. We were also only level 3 so that may be part of it.


I have a similar build and this is what I do to help with that first attack.

My AC never attacks before me. It waits until my initiative. If I am ahead in the initiative order, I delay to my ACs initiative.

Then I use a move action to move adjacent to an enemy, and then ready an attack action.

The AC then moves up adjacent to me and makes its attack. My readied attack action goes off immediately after the ACs attack.

This way we both get the flanking bonus on our first attack.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Well look at that. I hadn't even contemplated that. We always play that we go in the same initiative, but readying that attack should work. Thanks

Grand Lodge

HERE is the PFS hunter build I use for AoOs.

It's not going to be exactly what you want, but I've got all of the feats you'll want in that build with descriptions about why they work.

Grand Lodge

Most of build works better once you can ride the AC, so you threaten the same area and don't need trickiness to both get attacks, or have corner cases where savvy enemies come around the side of on or the other to avoid AoO and teamwork bonuses.


I plan on building something similar but am running into two issues.

1. When riding a large creature and using a reach weapon you don't threaten adjacent squares. Mention is made of things like bite attacks or armor spikes but that isn't what I want to be taking my attacks of opportunity with. If you want to use a reach weapon while being mounted you either need to be riding an ape or have a way for your mount to take attacks of opportunity with reach. Preferably for more then a few minutes at a time.

2. I also would like to ride the mighty T-Rex into battle. But the T-Rex at 7th level has Grab. And if it grabs the enemy it can't take attacks of opportunity. Not going to take the -20 to do so. Afaik there isn't a trick to prevent an animal companion from using an ability.


Bigguyinblack wrote:

I plan on building something similar but am running into two issues.

1. When riding a large creature and using a reach weapon you don't threaten adjacent squares. Mention is made of things like bite attacks or armor spikes but that isn't what I want to be taking my attacks of opportunity with.

option 1

If you are mounted, a mainhand lance and an offhand weapon are an option.There is something to be said imho for Torag worshippers that then take Torags Divine Fighting technique (way of patient strikes) which is basically combat reflexes but keyed off wisdom as long as you are wielding a warhammer (in this case in the offhand).This allows to focus on Str + Wisdom and Dex becomes a tertiatary stat. Also the loss of dex when you are enlarging (and the loss of AOO becomes a non issue

Option 2
Another way to go is a single level of Sohei monk, Dex+Wis+lightly armored is not bad, and now you threaten adjecent because you are monk and you can kick somebody while you are still two handing a reach weapon. Also you can get mounted skirmisher by taking that dip.

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